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Cindi answers questions about the Mormon Church

Started by Cindi Jones, October 24, 2006, 08:27:38 AM

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Cindi Jones

Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)
What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa

Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Melissa

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 08:27:38 AM
Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)
What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa
Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)

Cindi
True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)

Melissa
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beth

Quote from: Melissa on October 24, 2006, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 08:27:38 AM
Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)
What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa
Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)















Cindi
True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)

Melissa


                       I had a completely different experience with Mormans.  I lived in a small Utah town for 7 years and never felt or saw any hate from Mormans toward me or anyone else.  My first prescription for HRT was from a small town Morman doctor that offered it without even being asked by me. He said "I can't imagine how hard this has been for you".


beth
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Melissa

Quote from: beth on October 24, 2006, 11:09:38 AM
I had a completely different experience with Mormans.  I lived in a small Utah town for 7 years and never felt or saw any hate from Mormans toward me or anyone else.  My first prescription for HRT was from a small town Morman doctor that offered it without even being asked by me. He said "I can't imagine how hard this has been for you".

beth
That's definitely good to hear.  Cindi transitioned in the 80's and times were different then.  I also lived in utah from when I was 2 to until I was 15 (1980-1992).  I'm sure I was living there when Cindi was.  Maybe you were living there too.

Melissa
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: Melissa on October 24, 2006, 10:28:40 AM
True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)
Melissa

Oh my, that is funny Melissa.  I can't quit laughing. 

While I did have bitterness and great sadness for some time after my excommunication, that time has long passed.  I came to realize that they fought so hard becase they loved me so much. It was the only way they knew how to deal with the problem.  It was totally inept, but it was all they could do at the time. ;)  I've heard that the church has changed its position slightly towards GLBT folk.  But I haven't checked in with them to see just what that might be.

I heard my husband say to some guy once who was preaching to him:  "You know, you must be a very religious person."  "Why yes, how can you tell?"  "Because you are telling me how I should live MY life."  ;)

I've told it before, but it is buried in the ether somewhere....  Hubby tells people he's a Bochalist.  When someone asks him what that means he responds with: "I believe in bochalism."  When people ask about my beliefs, I tell them that I'm a Druid.  When they ask me what I believe in, I say:  "Look up.... and there you go!"  Between the two of us, most folk just assume we are crazy loones!

In all honesty, we are both spiritual people.  We have our sacred beliefs.  But they are our beliefs, so we rarely share them with other people.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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gin

Cindi,
This year my husband and I left the Mormon church.  I am not a bitter exmormon and still have several friends within the church.   I didn't think much about it until recently, but when I was an active member I once told the bishop about my mother and her transition.  He told me there was no need to discuss this with anyone else.  Later, I told the patriarch the same thing.  He told me that when I got to Heaven, my MOTHER would be waiting on me.  SHE would be healed from her physical and mental pains that she had suffered here on Earth.   Before I left, he told me that I should not share that story with anyone else again, that Heavenly Father had taken care of it and there was no need to discuss it further.  At the time I was very emotional!  I've always been afraid of what the eternal consequences of suicide are and I now believe that he (the patriarch) played on my fear.  I think the church wants such a perfect and clean appearance that they do whatever to keep the dirty laundry silent.  I know that is a huge generalization, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone.  This is just my experience and the opinion I have formed from that.
Ginger
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Cindi Jones

My mother went to talk to her bishop about "my" problem in her new ward (that's like a parish or congregation for the Mormon illiterate).  He told her that it did not reflect on her and that she shouldn't worry about it.  But he did admonish her that it would be their "little secret".

So now that I've moved this topic to its own little discussion on Mormon spirituality, I'd like to open it for questions.  Please ask what you will and I will answer in my most thoughtful manner.  Many people have many unanswered questions about the Mormons.  And I promise to be nice.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Tiffany2

Cindi;

  I have so many questions but I won't ask because I don't want to be a nuisence. ( and because of the possible rule violations or offending some ) The Mormons where I live won't come near those who enjoy deeper spiritual conversations that tear up their doctrine. If you make the mistake of coming on too strong they avoid you like the plague.
  I guess I'l limit my questions to these:
  1.  Are non Mormon Christians and those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost among those listed as going to hell with us dirty transgender folk?
  2.  If you were willing to be a second or third wife to one of their male members would they reconsider excommunicating you and cover it up for the sake of your family?
  I hope these don't sound too dumb but I have reasons for asking that I won't go into since Susan's is not a place for some of the discussions I enjoy going into.
  Any help would surely be cherished.

  Tiffany
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Cindi Jones

#8
Okay, as we start this venture, let me just repeat for the record that I am no longer associated with the Mormon church.  They ah.. ummm... invited me to leave.  I will provide answers as best as I can according to what I know of the LDS doctrine.  Let me start by saying that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints consider themselves to be Christians. The nickname "Mormon" came from one of their religious texts and was coined by non members in the early history of the church.

1)  A) In the Mormon temples, church members perform ordinances for the dead. These do include baptism by immersion to receive the holy ghost. This is one of the reasons that Mormons are very interested in geneology.  Although these ordinances are performed for the dead, they must be accepted by the person for which they are performed. So, even after you are dead, you can choose to receive the LDS faith.

     B) LDS (Latter Day Saint) people do not believe in "hell".  They believe that each person will receive a certain status based on their performance while on earth.  Eternal progression is a fundamental belief.  It's sort of like someone who has gone to college and someone who has not.  Who will get the better jobs?  Now the fellow that didn't go to college can do it, but he'll just be that much farther behind.  So if you were a jerk, you'll most likely always be a jerk watching everyone pass you by for eternity.

2) A) Plural marraige was discontinued in 1898 to abide by the laws of the USA.  A man can, however, be sealed (married) to more than one woman in heaven.  So if a man's wife dies, he may take another wife and be sealed to her in the temple. Now both women are married to him in God's eyes.  They will all live together in the after life.
 
    B) Excommunication typically will not result in an anullment of the sealing.  It is uncommonly rare to be able to get permission to do this.  It's like calling the Pope and inviting him to dinner. He probably won't come if you don't know him really well.  By the way FWIW, they got one in my case.
 
    C) When it comes to records, they are painfully accurate in such things. My family tree is littered with all kinds of "problems" as is everyone else's.  No coverups are allowed. NONE  My mother's biological father left her and her sister when she was very young.  The man that married her mothered was always her daddy.  He was my "grandpa".  In my eyes he was and always will be MY "grandpa".  But, in the church records he is listed only as my grandmother's second husband.  The man that ran off and was never seen again is my listed as my grandfather on my mother's line.  My mother tried in vain for years to get "MY" grandpa even mentioned in the records as her father.

Okay... keep them coming. 

Cindi will answer any questions concerning the Mormon church.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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beth

QuoteThe Mormons where I live won't come near those who enjoy deeper spiritual conversations that tear up their doctrine. If you make the mistake of coming on too strong they avoid you like the plague.

I think this would apply to any group, including golfers, left handed people and movie goers.




I don't have the experience Cindi has but I can add the following,

Quote1.  Are non Mormon Christians and those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost among those listed as going to hell with us dirty transgender folk?

Mormans believe their church is the true church (what religious group doesn't?) but they respect others beliefs and do not preach hate toward any church or group.

beth
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Tiffany2

Thank you both for your answers. It's hard to get insight here where I live. The Mormons do seem rather secretive at times. Also, it appears I may have gotten some wrong information from others outside their church.
Once again; thank you.

Tiffany
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Cindi Jones

Tiffany,

The Mormon church had a very tough time in the early years. Every where they moved they were persecuted.  I don't believe it was for their beliefs.  I believe it was because they were a sizeable political force.  They set up in New York, Ohio, and Missouri.  They were driven out of each state.  In Missouri, the governer of the state issued an extermination order making it legal to shoot and kill Mormons. The first Mormon leader was executed by a mob.  They were forced from their homes in the dead of winter to cross the Missouri river and try to survive from freezing that winter in tents and whatever else they could scrounge together.  The great Missouri river froze that year it was so cold.

They walked across America and set up their new cities next to a great salt lake where the famous trapper and scout Jim Bridger said that he'd give a thousand dollars for the first bushel of corn grown there.  The land was considered so barren and inhospitible that it seemed to be the perfect place where they would be left alone.  While they were trecking accross our great land,  the president of the United States sent a message asking for them to send men to help in the American/Mexican war.  Brigham Young selected 500 men to send to fight for the country that had ordered them murdered.  They left their families en route, to walk across the great plains and rocky mountains alone without them. Their fathers and husbands would not meet up with them for years as the small Mormon army wound its way down to Mexico, out to California, and back to Utah.

Once they had established their new home next to the lake of salt, the USA sent out a military force to coerce the new settlement to obey the law (this was over the plural marraige thing). The troops came in and set up a military base.

The Church is very social in Utah.  If you are a member, all of your closest friends are in the Church. All of your spare time is available to do church work.  And Mormon groups still remember the history of their forefathers. I had a great great grandmother that walked with her father and mother pulling a handcart with their meager belongings.  She walked those thousands of miles barefoot to protect her shoes so she could wear them to church when she arrived in Zion. She lost her shoes just a few days before entering the Salt Lake Valley. Many in their party died along the way.

The song my great great grandmother sang as she walked was Come, Come, ye Saints. I learned to sing as a child and it still brings tears to my eyes even now as I know the hardships they endured walking to Utah.

Come, come, ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear;
But with joy wend your way.
Though hard to you this journey may appear,
Grace shall be as your day.
'Tis better far for us to strive
Our useless cares from us to drive;
Do this, and joy your hearts will swell--
All is well! All is well!

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard?
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins; fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell-
All is well! All is well!

We'll find the place which God for us prepared,
Far away in the West,
Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;
There the Saints will be blessed.
We'll make the air with music ring,
Shout praises to our God and King;
Above the rest these words we'll tell--
All is well! All is well!

And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day! All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow, too,
With the just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain,
Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well! All is well!

It is little wonder that they seem to keep together. My grandmother told me these stories of her grandmother. Those families, like mine, still live in tact, with their history, in Utah.  Although I am no longer a member, I still hold great pride for my heritage.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Tiffany2

Cindi;

  Thank you so much for that post!
  You surely have a way to show things not seen by those outside the Mormon faith. It's kind of a shame that there is that secrecy as some of these things could shed some light on this group to some of us that have had pre-conceived notions about them.
  I hope one day to share a hope in spiritual things for transgenders that you are able to relate about the Mormons.
  I do hope that if my wording sounds judgemental or hateful in the things that I have posted you will forgive me.
  It almost in a sense seems as though you have traveled from one hated lifestyle to another by going from Mormon to outing yourself as trans.
  I too love a country that does not believe as I do and people that hate me for my spiritual views and being transgender.
  Thank You so much. That was beautiful.

  Tiffany
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angelsgirl

That is something that I never learned in any of history courses. I am deeply moved by your telling of it, Cindi.
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stephanie_craxford

Wow and there I was thinking that Cindi and I were the only ex-Mormons here...  Silly me.

Steph
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Kendall

Raises my hand here too...

Served a 2 year mission to Philippines.

Do Mormons accept TGs? No. Ones that are still in the church either have it hidden or are being monitored to change by the hierarchy.

Can a TG ever attain the highest glory according to their doctrine? No. Temple marraige and sealed. Not possible unless hidden, or lie about things.

I normally havent responded to the posts. I don't hate mormons. I just dont believe in what they believe in. I do believe they do a lot of good and dont promote crime, drugs, and basic living. They do have sexuality I believe entirely wrong. And have created a intricate form of rituals and symbols that are false and absurd even.

I dont have a religion now, just a philosophy of living of survival, mixed with some psychological techniques and theories. I also have a great deal of admiration for some eastern religions.

Thank god, I didnt marry while I was in it, lol. (pun intended)

Ken/Kendra
75F25M
Androgyne

If I remember, the belief is in the 3 degrees of glory. Celestial, Terestial, and Telestial. Where there is certain criteria for each level. Celestial (the greatest) is for those in temple married and babtized, that will live with their partner and become gods themselves to another world. Also I remember there is something called Outer Darkness or something like that where Lucifer will dwell with those outcasted forever and denying Jesus, or something like that.
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 24, 2006, 04:59:23 PM
Cindi;

  Thank you so much for that post!
  You surely have a way to show things not seen by those outside the Mormon faith. It's kind of a shame that there is that secrecy as some of these things could shed some light on this group to some of us that have had pre-conceived notions about them.

It is the same thing for any other group in history.  Someone who is different is to be feared or marked odd. Do we not feel similar feelings towards the Menonites?

Quote
  I hope one day to share a hope in spiritual things for transgenders that you are able to relate about the Mormons.
  I do hope that if my wording sounds judgemental or hateful in the things that I have posted you will forgive me.

No, I take absolutely no offense.  If we can learn about religions and understand them, we are all better people.

Quote
  It almost in a sense seems as though you have traveled from one hated lifestyle to another by going from Mormon to outing yourself as trans.
  I too love a country that does not believe as I do and people that hate me for my spiritual views and being transgender.
  Thank You so much. That was beautiful.
Tiffany

As my forefathers suffered for what they felt was truth, so do I.  Only the circumstances are different... and I did not endure half of what they went through. I've had it easy by comparison. I got over the hurt long ago. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With so many of us gathered here, perhaps we could have a priesthood meeting!  But seriously, what gives?  How did so many of us congregate here?  We are not representative of the percentages... surely.


Quote from: Kendra on October 24, 2006, 05:45:00 PM
Can a TG ever attain the highest glory according to their doctrine? No. Temple marraige and sealed. Not possible unless hidden, or lie about things.

There is one scriptural reference that I used to show them that this was not the case. It says if you get sealed, you've made it and nothing short of murder will cancel it.  They didn't like my interpretation although that's exactly what it says.  I'll not get into it more than that here because it would bore most people to tears.

Quote
If I remember, the belief is in the 3 degrees of glory. Celestial, Terestial, and Telestial. Where there is certain criteria for each level. Celestial (the greatest) is for those in temple married and babtized, that will live with their partner and become gods themselves to another world. Also I remember there is something called Outer Darkness or something like that where Lucifer will dwell with those outcasted forever and denying Jesus, or something like that.

Yes within each of these houses are varying degrees of glory; to each what he has earned.  To those in the highest levels, they will eventually become gods.  Those who have denied Christ after receiving him, will spend eternity in outer darkness. This is the only sin that will send you to this place. It is the worst imaginable.  Those who recieve the priesthood and then go through transition are classified in the son of perdition category and will go to outer darkness.  That would be you and me Kendra.  It sorta makes your day doesn't it love?

The church does not spend much time discussing the outer darkness place.  They focus more on the positive aspects in their meetings and teachings.... for the most part.

Posted on: October 24, 2006, 09:45:25 PM
Okay... .let's get back to the task at hand.  I will calm myself and try to answer with more dignity.  If you've got them, let me know.  I will answer all questions about the Mormon church.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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gin

Cindi,
Tell me if I've got this right or not, a man in the celestial kingdom must have multiple wives in order to become a God?  Maybe that was back in Joseph Smith's day, I'm not sure. 

Last week I had a conversation w/ a friend of mine who was born and raised in the church and will never depart.  She asked me what our disbeliefs were.  I told her first and formost, I don't believe that we (men) can become Gods.  She told me it all makes perfect sense....puppies grow up to be dogs, we are children of God and we will become a God.  To which I said "so there is more than one God?" she said "exactly".  I have a major issue with that.  There are times that I don't even feel worthy of Heaven.

Have you ever read The Work and the Glory series?  They are awesome!  They tell the Joseph Smith story, but they also tell the story of the pioneers and such.  Really increadible stories!!

Ginger
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: gin on October 24, 2006, 08:01:26 PM
Cindi,
Tell me if I've got this right or not, a man in the celestial kingdom must have multiple wives in order to become a God?  Maybe that was back in Joseph Smith's day, I'm not sure. 

In the beginning of the church, many of the men died, went off to war, whatever... Additionally, there were more women converts.  So there were a surplus of women and not enough men to go around.  In that time, men were called upon to take more than one wife.  I do not believe that men are required to have multiple wives to achieve celestial glory (to become a god).

Quote
Last week I had a conversation w/ a friend of mine who was born and raised in the church and will never depart.  She me what our disbeliefs were.  I told her first and formost, I don't believe that we (men) can become Gods.  She told me it all makes perfect sense....puppies grow up to be dogs, we are children of God and we will become a God.  To which I said "so there is more than one God?" she said "exactly".  I have a major issue with that.  There are times that I don't even feel worthy of Heaven.

For our universe (all that we know) there is the single god Ellohim.  He is the literal father of Christ.  They are two separate beings.  Christ is the god of the old testament. He's the one that gave Moses the tablets.  So in some respect there are two gods who are in charge of his children.  God and his son. They are believed to be separate beings which is fairly uncommon.

Quote
Have you ever read The Work and the Glory series?  They are awesome!  They tell the Joseph Smith story, but they also tell the story of the pioneers and such.  Really increadible stories!!

No, I have not.  Sometimes, it can be painful to get back into that sort of thing.  It is also very difficult at times when I visit my family. 

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Witch of Sadness

Dear Cindi,

I have been at the Mormons since my birth. In the year 1992 I was excommunicated because of transsexualism and might not the enter parish rooms (my former ward). Unless I would dress up as a "man". I was not allowed my children to see either because, her mother, also a Mormon, didn't want it. The bishop (head of the local municipality) forbade the members to talk with me. It was told to me that I could come back to the church again; if I would see that I would be mistaken.
I still would like to say two things:

(A)  The LDS church is even more aggressive than before against GLBT people. Surprising, since Joseph Smith married gay couples in the temple; and dykes and homosexuals were accepted. The tolerant behavior of the LDS changed only in 1952. Perhaps with what the movement of the dykes and homosexual started to form?
TS people can be baptized if they didn't know the LDS but not if they were already in it! Not at particularly MtF-TS, cause they  carried the priesthood of the Mormons.


(B) Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS had "married" several women who were married underage or where already married to another man. He died of by a mob but he fired his pistol before. And he went to prison where he died because he had a critical magazine destroyed (he was a mayor of a settlement of the Mormons in Nauvoo at that time).

(C) Mormons have the tendency to replace everything contradicts to her "truth"! And they attack the people, which criticize this church!

WoS
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