So is there a place for she-males?

[RebeccaFog]

LoL, never heard the term "he-fems". There's only one guy who's doing a lot of porno work, Buck Angel. He calls himself a man with a [insert synonym for cat here]. I've heard gay men refer to FtM's as "guys with pies". I'm not keen on either Buck's term or the latter term applied to me. But I don't object to Buck calling himself that at all. It's just marketing for him.

Maybe because we're less likely to be sexually objectified, there isn't really an analogous situation.

Dennis

Hi,
    I am a very curious person. I heard of Buck Angel by accident, probably while reading about Howard Stern, I think. At first, I was horrified by Buck's profession and the way he exploits himself, but then I realized that he is exploiting himself. In a way, it's inspiring how Buck uses his base impulses and works it to his advantage. I'm NOT advocating for porn here. Please don't misunderstand me. I hope to make the point that Buck is his own man and he seems happy with what he's doing.

   What I got from Buck as a person is that he is not really obsessed with body image. I also found that even though I don't necessarily approve of Buck for his choice of professions; I also haven't judged him the way I would judge a woman whether she is natal or a "she-male". for making the same choices.

   That's pretty wierd, huh? I discovered I have a double standard when it comes to Males and Females who decide to do the 'unmentionable' as a living. I always consider the females to be downtrodden and abused. I never considered that about men, even the only T-man I've seen (Buck) who does that stuff.

   Whack me with a stick  . I am now confused over the difference with empowering one's self and being exploited. I guess the real difference is; who gets the income and whom has control over whom.


Yucky topic,

Becca

[Thundra]

Here seems to be the core of our disagreement:

i do care what people say about me because what people say/think about me and others is [feedback] and is related to one's reputation.  and how does society define good and bad?  it's very simple; [fruits are deeds], iow it's like hunter and pray.

I could care less what anyone thinks of me, unless it involves me missing a paycheque.
As a dyke (homosexual), I have already dealt with the loss of so-called friends, family, etc.
In my life, and I am MUCHO older than you, I have seen society evolve over and over, and each time, things that were verbooten are now acceptable -- among them say, divorce, working women, and inter-racial relationships.

The current situation of society battling homosexuals over marriage as a concept, and the churches finally noticing trans-folx as a threat to their way of life, are but the latest in a long string of civil disorders that lead to additional freedoms for the oppressed groups. In a few generations, people will look back and wonder what the fuss was all about.

Your last comment was quite interesting. Do you see yourself as prey if you do not try to fit in? In my own experience, I have found that the more I try to fit in, the more power I give to people to try to influence how I live. I have found that my best defense is a good offense. I say what I will, do what I want, and go where I want. I exude confidence. The more you behave like prey, the more likely you will be prey. I have had close friends murdered, and I will never allow myself to be put in that position.

So, we operate within different parameters. For me, a label is just that -- a label. I have no problem with any of them, as long as the person defines themself that way.

[katia]

i'm tired today, arguing about ->-bleeped-<-s does not benefit [me] in anyway, so from now and on i will ignore this thread. my points are well-stated, i will NEVER  see ->-bleeped-<-s as women. i can dance around this topic with words and so called experiences, but i will NOT change my points of view.  period.

[Julie Marie]

First of all I will define what she-male is to me: a person who wants the physical traits of both sexes, most often a genetic male who has BA but probably doesn't take hormones so they can still perform sexually as male.  Forgive me for the simplistic definition but there's a lot of grey area here for me.

As far as accepting them, absolutely.  If we want to be accepted for who we are we should be able to accept others for who they are.  Do they require their own section?  I don't see the need right now.  But if the numbers are great enough and it doesn't become a porn focused section I would have no objection.

My two cents...

Julie

[RebeccaFog]

In the FTM community I wonder if there is any opposition to "he-fems"

......oh dear what have I gone and started now!!

Oh boy, here we go again... ..LOL....well, actually I have heard of the term
he-she for FTM's, but as far as I am concerned it doesn't have any negative connotations.  IMO, it is the same as saying MTF or MTW (man to woman) although I have to admit that he-she doesn't sound right either for some reason.

..and yes, Buck  , I know who he is and what he does, but again, the sexist part of me is talking here, a FTM can get away with things of that nature and still be called a man, not the other way around.


tinkerbell

   That's it! I'm a sexist! [I'm not joking]
    Honestly, I learned from this thread that I have a double standard and small sexist attitude about some things. I'm fine with that, though. Understanding one's own self is important.

   I'll second Julie Marie's supporting those who identify as 'you know what'. As long as there is a boundary and a standard. The same standard to which we here hold ourselves in terms of support, acceptance, and propriety.

   Also, as stated earlier, with a little time, the person who identifies as 'you know what' might come to realize that they are using a possibly derogatory term and find an alternate method of identification.

  Also again, as are others, I too am in need of a different topic. This topic was a good one. It brought up a topic and allowed it to get well wrung out.


Wringing my hands over peace,
becca

   

[Thundra]

i'm tired today, arguing about ->-bleeped-<-s does not benefit [me] in anyway, so from now and on i will ignore this thread. my points are well-stated, i will NEVER  see ->-bleeped-<-s as women. i can dance around this topic with words and so called experiences, but i will NOT change my points of view.  period.

Works for me. Nobody was asking you to change anything girlie. I was just attempting to bring into the open the discrimination that goes on in this community, against other members of that same community. It is the reason I no longer feel sorry for Trans, or TG or TS people, and why I will not lift a single finger to help any of you. Some of you are worse than the average bigot I come across in your idears, attitudes, and behaviours.
So, I guess I am done here too -- nothing has changed in this community.

[Dennis]

i'm tired today, arguing about ->-bleeped-<-s does not benefit [me] in anyway, so from now and on i will ignore this thread. my points are well-stated, i will NEVER  see ->-bleeped-<-s as women. i can dance around this topic with words and so called experiences, but i will NOT change my points of view.  period.

Works for me. Nobody was asking you to change anything girlie. I was just attempting to bring into the open the discrimination that goes on in this community, against other members of that same community. It is the reason I no longer feel sorry for Trans, or TG or TS people, and why I will not lift a single finger to help any of you. Some of you are worse than the average bigot I come across in your idears, attitudes, and behaviours.
So, I guess I am done here too -- nothing has changed in this community.

Sounds to me like you're looking for someone to disagree with. There were other points of view other than the one you quoted.

Why look for the negative and bring it to the forefront?

Dennis

[Steph]

To give folks a chance to cool down this topic will be locked for a week from today.

Steph
This topic has now been unlocked.

Please keep this thread civil and on topic, any further nonsense and the topic will be re-locked and possibly deleted.

Steph

[SusanKay140]

A wise move Steph, providing cooling time.  What's interesting is seven pages of posts, and I didn't discern one She-Male in the crowd.  Hopefully everyone is moving on. Perhaps I should not even make a comment on it; I certainly don't wish to stir it up - so, how about those Mets?

Susan Kay  >

[BeverlyAnn]

Would I welcome someone who self-identified as "she-male" here.  Of course.

I have some comments on some of the previous posts but I'm going to start them in a new thread.

Bev

[Dryad]

Seeing as I think of myself as both male and female:
Hello!
Would I get the surgery to become a ->-bleeped-<-..? Well... That's a tough question, for me. I mean... On the one hand, it'd be awesome. I'd love to be, physically, between, or both, sexes.
On the other: There's not turning back, of course, and social stigma... Well, it's not what one'd call in favor of '->-bleeped-<-s.' At all.
Besides; all the costs for the required plastic surgery... well, I've got trouble paying the rent, as it is. And then there's just the fear of the entire process. And how to tell people. Hello; I've changed my name to Anne. (Where I come from, it's a unisex name.)
I'm simply not ready for that, and don't know if I'll ever be.
But it's nót about pornografy, and it's nót about sex. It's not about not giving up the penis for... Sexual reasons or anything.
It's about wanting to be both genders, physically. Because I don't feel completely male, and I don't feel completely female. I feel both.
(I've ran about for years wishing I was born fully hermaphrodite. You know; with both a vagina and a penis. Having this... Skin behind my testicles just feels flawed. It allways has.)

[angelsgirl]

Nice, honest post! I would like you to know that you've got my support whatever you would like to call yourself.  The best word might be "complicated", but it's cool, I think average is boring. By the way, where are you from that Anne is a unisex name? (I'm just a curious person)

[Dryad]

I'm from the Netherlands. Frysland, to be precise. In the rest of the NL, Anne is mostly a female name, with some exceptions. (Mainly Frysians) In Frysland, however, Anne is fairly intersex. Often, it is written Ânne for men, but not allways.
Thankfully, my parents were so kind as to pick my 'female' name for me, just in case I'd be born a girl: GéAnne. (After me grandmams. Gée and Anne.)

[angelsgirl]

Oh, that's really cool!

[Thundra]

..and yes, Leigh had her views and I found this which coincides exactly with what I think:

Wow.  I cannot believe you went there. I was assuming (hoping) this thread was dead, since everyone had the opportunity to spew out all their nasties.

First off. I knew Leigh Sparks better than anyone here. I was at times her closest friend, roommate, confidant, lover, and played devil's advocate for her on many occasions. Other than her leather dad, I was the first person she called when she was in a jam -- #2 on the speed dial.

Leigh was a . She would tell you so, to your face. She had friends in pretty much every community: lesbian, trans, gay, BI, kink, and on and on. Those who knew her loved her dearly. I think she slept with half of Portland.  LOL!!!

She had a real thing about someone using the label woman, who had not lived as a woman. As you all know, her thing was being accepted by other woman (or ducks) as she liked to say. Leigh had friends who were she-male. How she viewed them, in the context of being accepted into the lesbo community, I am unsure. Her big thing was getting upset when someone, who knew of her background, would come sauntering up to her in public like they were her best friend. That bugged her bigtime. She hated that.
She would stand up for anyone's right to express themselves as they see fit, but she hated having her privacy invaded.

I often asked her why she stayed here year after year, after she finished her transition.
Her reply was always that she did it for the kids. She did it to help anyone struggling to find out where they belong. She sure struggled to find her place, whether anyone here knows it or not. It's also how she developed a tolerance for everyone struggling for acceptance and identity, and how I got dragged in here. You can thank our Miss Leigh (or curse her?)  She felt that the people here needed a broader point of view, and I certainly have that, cause I am a big broad.

So, she was a dichotomy like everyone else. On the one hand, she'd fight for everyone's right to be themselves, but on the other hand, she resented when someone she did not necessarily like invaded her space. And like a lot of women that transition, she sometimes felt the need to keep a distance or space between herself, and other women who transitioned. So, there was this tug of war thing that went on in her head.

But, let me say, uncategorically, that she hated -- H-A-T-E-D, all of the sniping that went on the GLBT community. It upset her, that people in this community, who are the current red-headed step child (as she liked to say) for abuse, would then turn around and heap abuse on other people. That is one thing we did agree on.

So yeah, I did hear her espouse the view that you dug up from her, because it is relating to definitions used by the HBSOC. But....I also heard her at various times express the view that she wished there was no HBSOC, and that she wished at other times that they were tougher in their stance.

It was like this: She really had no problem with anyone identifying as they wish, presenting as they wish, and hanging out with who they wish......as long as it was not in HER particular group. THAT is the truth. She didn't want anyone to embarrass HER.

But that became less of an issue over the time that I knew her.

I would advise that we all follow her example. If she didn't like someone, or how they presented around her, or how they identified, she wouldn't necessarily post it out there for all to see -- to create a controversy. She'd do what all women do -- call her friend over to her side, and vent, rather than making a big stink.

If you don't like she-males, or non-ops, or post-ops, or whatever, that is your business. But what is to be gained by coming here and throwing down a gauntlet? To draw a line between yourself and someone else, so that you can feel better about yourself. There are LOTS of things I do not like about the people in this community, and views that can be incendiary to say the least. But what would I gain by expressing them here and making someone feel two feet tall?

I don't get it?  There are plenty of people out there in the real world more than happy to label you out of existence. According to them, you are all nuts.

Sometimes the finger-pointing that goes on in this community reminds me of people from the religious community. I once asked a strict Baptist associate of mine why it was so darned important to point out how flawed everyone else is, and why they would go to hell for what they do. I asked her, wouldn't it be great if everyone was forgiven, and went to heaven? She was appalled! Her reply?  What good is living a pious life and suffering if everyone gets to be saved? And therein is the rub! It is the exclusivity that makes it VALUABLE.

If everyone that self-identified as a woman, or female, or whatever was accepted as such, would transitioning and whatnot be as important? Is that why it is necessary to label ourselves apart from other people, or to be exclusionary in doing so?

You know my opinion. I could care less. I hate everyone equally.

[angelsgirl]

Ladies, what are you really arguing about here? She-males? All this fuss over two stupid little words, I doubt it...seems more like the definition of a woman? Why is this such a big deal? I know I'm a woman, I know you're both women, I know my fiancee is a woman, but if I didn't think you were women, wouldn't you still think you're women? So what difference does it make then? Your definition isn't going to change anybody else's definition, so all you can live by is your own definition. Why blow this up bigger than it needs to be when there are more important things to be worrying about? And Thundra if you hate us all so much than why do you bother being here?

[Maebh]

A wise move Steph, providing cooling time.  What's interesting is seven pages of posts, and I didn't discern one She-Male in the crowd.  Hopefully everyone is moving on. Perhaps I should not even make a comment on it; I certainly don't wish to stir it up - so, how about those Mets?

Susan Kay  >

Soorry Susan Kay. As I said somewhere earlier I love my breasts and would even like them more developed but I do not hate or want to get rid of my penis and testicules. Does that make me a potential She-male? I don't care. On the continuum from male to female or vice versa.  I am happy and connected to my true identity when I express my own wholeness with both sides as complementary and not necessarely in opposition or in conflict with each other. May be I am lucky, I have found my own place ... if it distresses others that is their problem. If they need to stick a label on me to feel secure about their chosen one, let them do so.

And NO! I am not sitting on the fence, I just took it down and now I am free to roam on either side as I please*. It wasn't and still isn't always easy (with all the mind-cops around), but, oh yes, I love it! I wouldn't give it up for all the gold in the world!

I don't need any label, (CD, TV, Androgynous, She-male, 3rd sex, heterolesbian,etc...)**.  I know who I am, I am glad of the richness of experiences it has given (and still  gives me), I am proud of the insights I gained because of it and, believe it or not, the people I love and respect accept me as I am.

Love, Light and Respect

Maebh.

* No wonder that "An madra uisce" (my boat) is a smuggler's yawl.
** At a push I might not mind too much TG in the sense of Transcending Genders

[Steph]

... On the continuum from male to female or vice versa.  I am happy and connected to my true identity when I express my own wholeness with both sides as complementary and not necessarely in opposition or in conflict with each other. May be I am lucky, I have found my own place ... if it distresses others that is their problem. If they need to stick a label on me to feel secure about their chosen one, let them do so.

And NO! I am not sitting on the fence, I just took it down and now I am free to roam on either side as I please*. It wasn't and still isn't always easy (with all the mind-cops around), but, oh yes, I love it! I wouldn't give it up for all the gold in the world!

I don't need any label, (CD, TV, Androgynous, She-male, 3rd sex, heterolesbian,etc...)**.  I know who I am, I am glad of the richness of experiences it has given (and still  gives me), I am proud of the insights I gained because of it and, believe it or not, the people I love and respect accept me as I am.

Love, Light and Respect

Maebh.

* No wonder that "An madra uisce" (my boat) is a smuggler's yawl.
** At a push I might not mind too much TG in the sense of Transcending Genders

Hmmmm Maebh, I seem to recall that words similar to yours being spoken by many a TS to express themselves, so it would seem that you certainly fit in, belong and have a place here.

Steph

[Shana A]

** At a push I might not mind too much TG in the sense of Transcending Genders

Maebh, I very much like the idea of TG as Transcending Gender. It's certainly where my journey has taken me, I'm not one, not the other, just somewhere in between.

zythyra

[Maebh]

Hmmmm Maebh, I seem to recall that words similar to yours being spoken by many a TS  to express themselves, so it would seem that you certainly fit in, belong and have a place here.
Steph

TS?  Qui vivra, vera. Well we'll see.

Anyway Seph; thanks for the welcome and the inclusion. Sometimes one can get the impression that some TS think that they are the only ones that are real or genuine and that others are either mere amateurs dabling with gender boundaries or stranded on their way to full self realisation.

Maebh, I very much like the idea of TG as Transcending Gender. It's certainly where my journey has taken me, I'm not one, not the other, just somewhere in between.

zythyra

Merci. Go raibh mile maith agaibh. Thanks a 

By the way, I think too that the rebel  in me also kind of likes and enjoys enormously Transgressing the culturaly imposed boundaries of the genders roles and limitations.  >


LL&R
Maebh