The anti-war thread.

[Jen61]

Remove profit motive, eh? That didn't stop the USSR from invading Afghanistan.

No more ships? The nation with the largest navy controls the high seas and thus trade.

Roll over and play dead? Often dosent work for opossums.

Now why we need to spend TWICE as much as rest of the world combined is a point of debate for cost savings.

I know  am going to get so flamed for it, as it is a concept difficult to grasp, but no war no progress. It is in the genes.

[Shana A]

I don't know if human nature is inherently violent, or just easily misled by those in power who desire far more power and will use others to those ends.

We can make a conscious choice of non-violence, and that is the action I choose.

Z

[Devlyn]

It's very easy to say you take a position of non violence in front of a computer with a cup of coffee in a heated house. When someone takes your computer, coffee, house, and everything else, and all that's left is a can of green beans, are you going to hand them over, or fight? We all will fight and kill for survival, war is just the grown up version of that.

[Amazon D]

It's very easy to say you take a position of non violence in front of a computer with a cup of coffee in a heated house. When someone takes your computer, coffee, house, and everything else, and all that's left is a can of green beans, are you going to hand them over, or fight? We all will fight and kill for survival, war is just the grown up version of that.

Actually i would hand the green beans over.. I have given away everything i own a few times in my life to hear better from the spirits above / God.. I have then been given more each time... I actually long to be in the next world.. but until then i am here doing as i am told..

"life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return"

[Shana A]

It's very easy to say you take a position of non violence in front of a computer with a cup of coffee in a heated house. When someone takes your computer, coffee, house, and everything else, and all that's left is a can of green beans, are you going to hand them over, or fight? We all will fight and kill for survival, war is just the grown up version of that.

Making a choice for non-violence doesn't necessarily mean that one simply hands over everything. True non-violence is action, not passivity. Non-violent actions have overthrown repressive governments.

Most modern wars aren't about survival, they're about money, power, greed, oil. War begets more war. Killing begets more killing. Can humans try another way, before killing ourselves off and destroying our planet? Dialogue, listening to each other with compassion and empathy. Doing the hard work of finding true compromise that works for everyone.

Z

[Devlyn]

I spent a few minutes and googled "war" and "history of war." Blaming war on greed, capitalism, and governments is wrong. War existed before capitalism and governments, greed has probably always existed. Do a little homework, fighting is human nature. It's in us. Hugs, Tracey

[Shana A]

I spent a few minutes and googled "war" and "history of war." Blaming war on greed, capitalism, and governments is wrong. War existed before capitalism and governments, greed has probably always existed. Do a little homework, fighting is human nature. It's in us. Hugs, Tracey

Believe me, I've done plenty of homework over the years. I've read numerous histories about wars; WWII, Civil war, Troy, bible. I've also read numerous books about philosophy of non-violence and its history. Somewhere I read that in written history, there have only been 39 years total of no war. I am profoundly (and sadly) aware that it is part of our human history. However, that doesn't mean we can't make a choice to be non violent.

I didn't actually say anything about capitalism and governments, I said money. Money can mean any assets, such as land, oil, water. Many wars are fought over supposed ideology, but if we dig deep, most are to gain control of an asset.

Here is one of the best things I've ever heard on non-violence.



or w/ musical accompaniment by Ani DiFranco

Z

[Julie Marie]

Nothing fuels "defense" better than fear.  Fear, even when it's unfounded or irrational, is a powerful tool.

Countries have existed for centuries that have never gone to war and haven't had to hand over their possessions.  Other countries hate the US because the US sticks its nose in everyone's business and calls it defense.  What we do is no different than the neighborhood bully charging into your home just to make sure you aren't planning to attack him.

Peace is a choice, just like war.

[Anatta]

Nothing fuels "defense" better than fear.  Fear, even when it's unfounded or irrational, is a powerful tool.

Peace is a choice, just like war.

Kia Ora Julie,

So true, especially for those of us who able to acknowledge and live by this truism...Another truth is, some humans are more aggressive than others-which for the most part seems to be a 'learnt' behaviour... 

Metta Zenda

[Michelle.]

Uh, just what countries?

Switzerland maybe. But they have one heck of a geographical advantage. Maybe some of the smaller South American ones.

[Miniar]

I'm Icelandic.
Iceland's a little island in the middle of the North-Atlantic.
It has about 350.000 people, and no army what so ever.
No navy either, nor air-force.

The only "wars" we've ever been "fought" was the "cod-wars", where our single little coast guard boat with one gun (corked!) would sail out to meet British naval vessels and attempt to shoo their fishing boats and navy out of our newly expanded waters (as we expanded our mileage to about the same as the rest of the world already had theirs).
Iceland won these "wars" not by force, but by tenacity and by winning over the public opinion, not only of Iceland, but of most of the world. In part with a simple comic sketch which featured a little rowboat with an Icelandic flag and a man with a toy gun surrounded by several British naval ships with all their big guns pointed down at the little man in his little boat.

There's a point there. It's that in these cases we're talking about western countries with ideals of fair play. If the British navy had fired upon the only coast guard ship Iceland had, a tiny boat by comparison to the massive destroyers, which only had one gun that was never fired, never even loaded, was actually corked the entire time, then the UK would have come off as this violent bully and brute that had nothing better to do with it's munitions than lay waste to an anthill, and for what? For waters they already had no claim to and didn't want to stop fishing in.
_

Iceland "was" indeed taken over by Denmark once in the past, but this was done without bloodshed.
It also won back it's independence without bloodshed.
A group of Icelandic politicians went to Denmark to negotiate with the Danish on something or another and there was a moment in that negotiation that every Icelander knows. A moment when one man stood up and spoke "Við mótmælum allir!" (We all object!)
This line stands for the Icelandic "battle" for independence.
The people made it's will know via their proxy.
Iceland became independent once more.
_

Now, how do I believe that we'll "end" all war?

I do not believe that attacking the symptoms will do anyone any good.
None of this "no more guns" business will really help, nor will "no more taxes!"

I believe that what we need to do, as a species, is to decrease financial and social inequality, increase education and make it available to all of us, regardless of financial or sociological background.
We need to get any and all "religious" influence out of education and we need education to be broad and fluent, allowing people to learn, not just parrot.
We need to encourage and reward critical thinking and kindness, not make excuses for ignorance and cruelty.
We need to be just, and fair, not propagate hate, us v.s. them mentalities and revenge ethics.

I believe that when we've accomplished all this that it's then and only then that we can foresee the end of war.
Sadly, I doubt this can be accomplished in my lifetime, not even within a single country, even if it were the most progressive country in existence today, because we're human and we're too invested in our inequalities, arrogance and ignorance. We're too busy believing we're "right" to admit that we're wrong.

[Amazon D]

I'm Icelandic.
Iceland's a little island in the middle of the North-Atlantic.
It has about 350.000 people, and no army what so ever.
No navy either, nor air-force.

The only "wars" we've ever been "fought" was the "cod-wars", where our single little coast guard boat with one gun (corked!) would sail out to meet British naval vessels and attempt to shoo their fishing boats and navy out of our newly expanded waters (as we expanded our mileage to about the same as the rest of the world already had theirs).
Iceland won these "wars" not by force, but by tenacity and by winning over the public opinion, not only of Iceland, but of most of the world. In part with a simple comic sketch which featured a little rowboat with an Icelandic flag and a man with a toy gun surrounded by several British naval ships with all their big guns pointed down at the little man in his little boat.

There's a point there. It's that in these cases we're talking about western countries with ideals of fair play. If the British navy had fired upon the only coast guard ship Iceland had, a tiny boat by comparison to the massive destroyers, which only had one gun that was never fired, never even loaded, was actually corked the entire time, then the UK would have come off as this violent bully and brute that had nothing better to do with it's munitions than lay waste to an anthill, and for what? For waters they already had no claim to and didn't want to stop fishing in.
_

Iceland "was" indeed taken over by Denmark once in the past, but this was done without bloodshed.
It also won back it's independence without bloodshed.
A group of Icelandic politicians went to Denmark to negotiate with the Danish on something or another and there was a moment in that negotiation that every Icelander knows. A moment when one man stood up and spoke "Við mótmælum allir!" (We all object!)
This line stands for the Icelandic "battle" for independence.
The people made it's will know via their proxy.
Iceland became independent once more.
_

Now, how do I believe that we'll "end" all war?

I do not believe that attacking the symptoms will do anyone any good.
None of this "no more guns" business will really help, nor will "no more taxes!"

I believe that what we need to do, as a species, is to decrease financial and social inequality, increase education and make it available to all of us, regardless of financial or sociological background.
We need to get any and all "religious" influence out of education and we need education to be broad and fluent, allowing people to learn, not just parrot.
We need to encourage and reward critical thinking and kindness, not make excuses for ignorance and cruelty.
We need to be just, and fair, not propagate hate, us v.s. them mentalities and revenge ethics.

I believe that when we've accomplished all this that it's then and only then that we can foresee the end of war.
Sadly, I doubt this can be accomplished in my lifetime, not even within a single country, even if it were the most progressive country in existence today, because we're human and we're too invested in our inequalities, arrogance and ignorance. We're too busy believing we're "right" to admit that we're wrong.

When the people being invaded simple stand there and don't fight the invaders can't justify their invasions.. Especially now with the computer age..

[Devlyn]

@ Zythyra, my source said there have been less than 300 years of peace in recorded history. As a species, we understand peace as well as aggression. Peace is fleeting, and war persists. @ Miniar, Iceland is the only member of NATO without a standing army of it's own. Iceland has also been in a bilateral defense agreement with the United States since 1951. This means Iceland has pledged to do whatever is necessary to protect the United States, and the United States has pledged to do whatever is necessary to protect Iceland. A mutually  beneficial arrangement providing safety for both nations. Hugs, Tracey

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

Waste of precious lives And Resources

Metta Zenda

[Devlyn]

Who remembers the WOPR?

[Jen61]

Nothing fuels "defense" better than fear.  Fear, even when it's unfounded or irrational, is a powerful tool.

Countries have existed for centuries that have never gone to war and haven't had to hand over their possessions.  Other countries hate the US because the US sticks its nose in everyone's business and calls it defense.  What we do is no different than the neighborhood bully charging into your home just to make sure you aren't planning to attack him.

Peace is a choice, just like war.

I beg to differ. Twice with had to intervene in Europe to stop major wars (WWi and II). Korea ? ask the South Koreans -currently one of the strongest economies in the world- if American intevention was worthless. The point is not to analyze waht drives war but rather understand that war is the mother of all inventions. Even "peaceful" civilizations like the Buddhist do not create anything unless they are lock in conflict.

Jen61

[Shana A]

@ Zythyra, my source said there have been less than 300 years of peace in recorded history. As a species, we understand peace as well as aggression. Peace is fleeting, and war persists.

Tracey,

Thanks. I'd heard it as 39 years, but either number is a tiny percentage in the whole of recorded human history.

Z

[tekla]

The point is not to analyze waht drives war but rather understand that war is the mother of all inventions. Even "peaceful" civilizations like the Buddhist do not create anything unless they are lock in conflict.

That tends not to be true.  Peace tends to prosperity and innovation because you have a full market to do the choosing.  War limits the market to just one buyer and the only issue is military necessity.   

[Devlyn]

Lots of people clamor to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but our troops have been in Korea since the 1930s.

[Jen61]

The point is not to analyze waht drives war but rather understand that war is the mother of all inventions. Even "peaceful" civilizations like the Buddhist do not create anything unless they are lock in conflict.

That tends not to be true.  Peace tends to prosperity and innovation because you have a full market to do the choosing.  War limits the market to just one buyer and the only issue is military necessity.   

Ummh, I am surprised at UR post. Usually you are right, but on this one, you are wrong. All the mtalurgie developments in the ascient world were but fueled by war. In recent times:
1. Atomic Energy – Absurdly efficient energy source capable of powering (or obliterating ) a large city. Used widely throughout the world. WWII

2. Anesthesia – the use of Chloroform began in the Civil War to aid Battlefield Surgeons efforts to cleanly and humanely process the injured soldiers. Shortly thereafter the movement began to gain traction in the private sector, improving medical care by cleaner surgeries and fewer infections. US Civil War.

3. Computer – We live in a wired society. Computers are part of the fabric of our daily lives at work, in the car or at home. Originally conceived and designed during WWII as a code breaking aid and for targetting Naval guns.

4. Internet – Conceived and designed in the late 1970's during the height of the cold war as a defense against nuclear war (DARPA). The thought was that if vital government information could be stored in a virtual environment, it would be impossible to take out communications at one location. The effect of this advancement is obvious to anyone reading this. 

5. Satellite Technology – The "Space Race" fueled by the underlying Cold War gave rise to an invention that facilitated better, safer, and more meaningful intelligence gathering activities. Modern day commercial applications have expanded to include the advent of GPS, and of course cable television and wireless internet. Cold War

6. Penicillin – Discovered around the turn of the 20th century, this simple drug which came to prominence during WWII has saved Billions of lives from previously deadly bacterial infections. WWI and WWII

7. Rubber – As the Allied forces scrambled to produce the equipment that would facilitate victory against the Axis powers, a major breakthrough came with the invention of synthetic rubber. Prior to this rubber was harvested via "rubber trees" in the South Pacific and Latin/South America. The invention allowed commercial ventures to explode and grow the American economy to the world's leading economic power. The most obvious application? Automobile tires. WWII

8. Jet Engine – Aeronautic technologies were able to "take off" in WWII & the Korean War Conflict with the invention of higher octane, more efficient super fuels, stronger and lighter engines and advances in aerodynamic engineering. Howard Hughes, the filmmaker, billionaire industrialist and international playboy pioneered many technologies which ensured unrivaled American Air superiority to this very day. WWII & Korean Conflict

9. Submarine – Incredibly, while the notion of maritime submersible vehicles have been "floating" around since the early 1600's, the first rudimentary (yet viable) submarine was launched in 1775. American Revolutionary War


10. Pepto Bismol – Pink Bismuth may not mean much to most, but for those of us this summer who suffer with the occasional post-hot dog heartburn this is a lifesaver. Originally conceived during WWII, this product was introduced commercially directly after the war. And the rest is