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A believer who thinks we have been duped.

Started by nicole99, March 15, 2012, 10:09:00 PM

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Annah

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Kevin Peña

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 01:08:41 PM
then we'll agree to disagree :)

Finally, thank you!! I swear, whenever I get into a discussion about religion, I wait for the person to just admit that we CAN disagree. It took you long enough, but I appreciate that you're not as close-minded as other religious folks I know.
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Annah

I actually said it one page back ;)

and your last sentence just contradicted your point
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Kevin Peña

All I said was that some religious folks are close-minded, but that you're not, both of which seem to be true statements. I don't see how that goes against anything I said. I appreciate that you have your beliefs and that you can appreciate someone else's. To each their own.
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MariaMx

I spent many years arguing with different religious people in different forums. What I soon realized was that it was best to argue specific positive claims set forth by individuals. There are no blanket arguments against any specific religion as there are almost as many interpretations as there are believers. If a a person were to argue that Darwin was wrong because be don't see monkeys giving birth to human I will pounce on them, but I won't assume all Christians are creationists by default.

As for the bible I'm not all that interested. I can see how many people find it spiritually inspirational. As a source of more specific knowledge like some claim I'm not so impressed. There's also the problem with the wide range of interpretations possible and how such a situation can lead to a lot ad-hoc  interpetations. I tend to think the original interpretation will be most in line with the original intent of the text, but I haven't studied the bible much so I really can't say if this holds true or not.
"Of course!"
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MrTesto

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 09:41:56 AM
To clarify, I was saying that you can't truly know God exists. If someone felt like they had an experience with Allah, would that prove that Allah exists? No. All it proves is that one person believes that he exists. All I'm saying is that you have no actual evidence. It's fine for you to believe in God, just don't go around mistaking faith for fact. ...

You seem to be really invested in telling me what I know or do not know. Please stop doing that. My experience is sufficient for me. I don't care whether it is sufficient for you, and I never said it was.

Would you persist in telling me that I have no "evidence" that I am a man? Or that someone loves me?  And therefore you will feel entitled to challenge these other realms of my personal knowledge about my personal life?

Honestly, I am finding your interactions with me to be slightly bizarre, given the nature of this website. Most trans spaces give weight to a person's own knowledge about themselves and things in their life.  I'm not a philosopher, but it seems to me that my knowledge about the reality of God in my life isn't something that you could possibly have a credible opinion on, just like you can't tell me that I am not "really" a man, because I have no "evidence" about that.

If I might point you to a page back and my "agree to disagree" offer, please reconsider it. I know that God is real. That doesn't have anything to do with you. And if that sounds testy or "close-minded" to you, I'm fine with that.

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Kevin Peña

Quote from: MrTesto on August 26, 2012, 03:27:19 PM
You seem to be really invested in telling me what I know or do not know. Please stop doing that. My experience is sufficient for me. I don't care whether it is sufficient for you, and I never said it was.

Would you persist in telling me that I have no "evidence" that I am a man? Or that someone loves me?  And therefore you will feel entitled to challenge these other realms of my personal knowledge about my personal life?

Honestly, I am finding your interactions with me to be slightly bizarre, given the nature of this website. Most trans spaces give weight to a person's own knowledge about themselves and things in their life.  I'm not a philosopher, but it seems to me that my knowledge about the reality of God in my life isn't something that you could possibly have a credible opinion on, just like you can't tell me that I am not "really" a man, because I have no "evidence" about that.

If I might point you to a page back and my "agree to disagree" offer, please reconsider it. I know that God is real. That doesn't have anything to do with you. And if that sounds testy or "close-minded" to you, I'm fine with that.

Okay, try not to be so sensitive and don't take what I said as a personal bash. It is true that you have no actual evidence for God's existence, and I don't feel like getting into a religious argument, so please just let me say this and leave it alone. Gender is a social construct, not an absolute. Therefore, it's open to leniency. I never confirmed nor denied any theological idea. I simply state that I don't believe in God, not that he is//isn't real. All I was saying is that for you to say you are absolutely right is offensive to people of differing beliefs.

If you really find this interaction to be weird, then show it and leave this statement alone. I will not be posting in this topic anymore since a religious debate is a hopeless cause. I hope you'll do the same.

If you want to prove me wrong and provide some evidence for God's existence, send me a PM and I will gladly apologize to you. If not, then let this topic die here and now.
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Julie Wilson

It has been my own personal experience that what may seem like, "anger towards god" - by someone who is agnostic or atheist is never actually 'anger towards god', rather it is more like the following...

(In my personal experience)

I am angry that I felt I was unable to be who I really was because of a god who threatened to send me to a fiery hell for all of eternity just for being who I am and for loving who I loved.

I am angry because of a god who made me a sinner and then blamed me for it.

I am angry that I was duped and squandered my life trying to get right with a god who didn't even exist.

I am angry that my parents believed in something simply because their parents believed in something.  I am angry that my descendants never learned to think for themselves or question anything significant.  I am angry that innocent children are indoctrinated by the people who are supposed to love them the most.

I am angry whenever I hear about all the people who are praying for so and so because none of them would ever actually lift a finger to help so and so.

I am angry when people tithe their money to the church faithfully but won't help a friend in need.

I am angry that I wasted so much time and effort thinking about stuff like this.

Whenever I see someone else who is hooked by religion like I was in the past I feel powerless to help them and that makes me angry because the more you try to help the more they hold on tighter to their beliefs.

I am angry because of all the stupid and horrendous things humans have done because of their religious beliefs.

I am angry that someone would rather cling to an old idea than question it.

I am angry that being a believer takes so much believing.

Okay... I'm not really that angry, not today.
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Elena G

Repeat with me, folks!

'You are free to do as we tell ya, you are free to do as we tell yah...'
Be kind to me,
or treat me mean...
I'll make the most of it,
I'm an extraordinary machine
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SarahM777

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 12:57:24 PM

If this is the case, you are reading one interpretation among over a dozen different interpretations of what those verses can mean. It was written in Koine Greek over 2000 years ago in a culture you and I cannot even remotely fathom.


Although most of the New Testament was written in Greek. Whom did Jesus mostly speak with were they Gentiles or were they Jews? If He spoke mostly to Greeks then one could use a Greek "mindset" but if He spoke mostly to Jews than one MUST work from a Hebraic perspective because that is the ONLY way to understand what He said. Jesus was a Jew and not a Gentile. Over and over He pointed back to the Old Testament and pointed out the Scriptures that pointed to Him. He claimed He was the fulfillment of the coming Messiah,Christ,the anointed one of God.

Add to that that almost all of the Bible was written by Jews not Gentiles it was written from a Hebraic perspective.

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 12:57:24 PM

On one hand, the New Testament says you must go through Christ to go to the Father.
On the Other hand, in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus says the only way to inherit eternal life is by loving your God and your neighbor like yourself.


Let's take a look at that passage

Luke 10:25-28

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


The guy is a lawyer first. He is asking what he must do by the LAW. In this case Jesus is 100% correct in that if one obeys the law completely one will inherit eternal life. It's not a contradiction.

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 12:57:24 PM

It isn't about saying a "sinner prayer" and then start condemning other religions because you got the Willy Wonka Golden Ticket. It's much harder...and much simpler than that. It's all about loving people like yourself...even when yo don't want to.

All the sinner's prayer is putting a bandaid on a mortal wound. If there are no evidences than where is the reality?

Who loves more the one that tells someone having a grand old time flying down the road at 90 miles an hour keep going and never mind the end results or the one that sees that the bridge is out ahead and warns the one going down that road that if you continue on you will die?
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Ave

It's odd...the whole discussion of religion inserted into this and that to support other's beliefs. I guess in my environment religion doesn't play a role.
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
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Annah

and it completes yet another circle.

You have people here who feels justified in bashing religious people (or atheists) Or thinking religion/secularism is evil, corrupted, etc. These people lack the ability to see outside their own worlds and respect a cause they may not personally invest in. It's a self defeating, narrow minded view.

This is my point where I see no difference in Fundamentalist Atheists, Fundamentalist Christians, Fundamentalists Agnostics, or other Fundamentalist people. They are the same peas in a pod:

1.  They believe their way is the only way.
2.  Everyone else is wrong and/or corrupted. 
3.  They see wrong doings in everything (i.e., people tithe to a church and not help people in need. Just so you know, almost every church who receives tithes gives a very large substantial portion of that tithe money to homeless shelters, soup kitchens, food pantries, rent, utilities, etc. Very little is given to the Pastor as a salary. We are literally the lowest paid profession in the world based on the degree we need to preach ..a 120 Credit Master's Level program...an MBA is 30 credits and you can get up to a six figure salary...we do four times the amount of work in school). We are like social workers who get paid on an average 40% lower than the lowest paid social worker. Again...stop looking at the rich evangelists and thinking all Pastors and churches are like that...this is stereotyping. You don't like it when people stereotype transsexuals...it's no different here).
4.  Anything outside of their belief system is corrupt, manipulative or immoral.
5.  If someone else believes in something else or do not believe in anything at all (or vice versa) then the person is stupid.

In my opinion, the mature people are the religious, atheists, agnostics people who respects one another despite the differences.

The religious, agnostics, and atheists who say immature quips like "'You are free to do as we tell ya, you are free to do as we tell yah" are too insecure to respect someone else's beliefs much less have respect in themselves. Because, in the end, it's all about them and everyone around them has it wrong.

Do I have it right with my religion? Absolutely not. However, I am woman enough to admit I do not know everything...in this world or the next. However, I have it right when it comes to respecting one another.

Those who pretend they got it all figured out while everyone else are sheep is doing just that. Pretending.
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MrTesto

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 04:28:16 PM
Okay, try not to be so sensitive and don't take what I said as a personal bash. It is true that you have no actual evidence for God's existence, and I don't feel like getting into a religious argument, so please just let me say this and leave it alone. Gender is a social construct, not an absolute. Therefore, it's open to leniency. I never confirmed nor denied any theological idea. I simply state that I don't believe in God, not that he is//isn't real. All I was saying is that for you to say you are absolutely right is offensive to people of differing beliefs.
...

Your comments were indeed personal, since you decided that I cannot possibly "know" something that is a core understanding for me. (Although, frankly, I've been bashed, and you hardly qualify as a "basher." Telling word choice, though!) Let me try again: I have evidence enough for me, and me alone, that God in fact absolutely does exist. For. Me. Not for anyone else. So it's not "true" that I have no evidence. I just don't have evidence that you find compelling. And that's OK - I really don't care if you believe in God. That's between you and the flying spaghetti monster. Nor do I say that anyone else has to believe as I do, and I've never said that. Your perseveration in this regard is...odd. If you choose to take offense at me saying what is true for me, then really, I can't help you.

As far as gender, or even "Gender," well, that's another thread, I'm sure. You can believe that Gender is a "social construct" for you, but I don't agree that it is for me. That's why they call it "gender theory."

But back to the topic at hand.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 04:28:16 PM
...
If you really find this interaction to be weird, then show it and leave this statement alone. I will not be posting in this topic anymore since a religious debate is a hopeless cause. I hope you'll do the same.
...

Here you and I agree, at last, absolutely! A religious debate is a hopeless cause (as you seem to be defining "religious," "debate," "hopeless," and "causality.") However, a religious conversation can indeed nurture hope. But that takes a bit more respect than I feel I have gotten from you.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 04:28:16 PM
...If you want to prove me wrong and provide some evidence for God's existence, send me a PM and I will gladly apologize to you. If not, then let this topic die here and now....

No thanks - I still have no interest in proving anything to you, even after all your baiting. But it's very nice of you to offer an offer of an apology. That's at least something! So until we meet again, God bless you, insofar as you wish to be blessed (and no further). Have a nice day!
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Sarah Louise

I agree with Mr.Testo, belief is "personal" to each of us.  I also have sufficient proof that God exists.  There is little purpose in trying to force that belief on anyone else.

But, it is what I believe.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Kevin Peña

Quote from: MrTesto on August 27, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
Your comments were indeed personal, since you decided that I cannot possibly "know" something that is a core understanding for me. (Although, frankly, I've been bashed, and you hardly qualify as a "basher." Telling word choice, though!) Let me try again: I have evidence enough for me, and me alone, that God in fact absolutely does exist. For. Me. Not for anyone else. So it's not "true" that I have no evidence. I just don't have evidence that you find compelling. And that's OK - I really don't care if you believe in God. That's between you and the flying spaghetti monster. Nor do I say that anyone else has to believe as I do, and I've never said that. Your perseveration in this regard is...odd. If you choose to take offense at me saying what is true for me, then really, I can't help you.

Here you and I agree, at last, absolutely! A religious debate is a hopeless cause (as you seem to be defining "religious," "debate," "hopeless," and "causality.") However, a religious conversation can indeed nurture hope. But that takes a bit more respect than I feel I have gotten from you.

Quote from: MrTesto on August 26, 2012, 03:27:19 PM
I know that God is real.

Okay, I know I'm going back on my word to stay out of this topic, but I have a couple of things left to cover. I want you to know that I mean you no disrespect. I am not defining any words, just using them. I am not trying to "tell" anything by my word choice. All I was saying is that the fact that you really don't have any real evidence for God's existence (making him a belief and not a fact) besides your own "experience" is not fair to any other person's beliefs. Even a pothead can say that a hallucination was true to him//her, but cannot say that it was absolutely true. No one can have all of the answers. You can believe whatever you want, but don't misconstrue belief as fact. Keep your beliefs for what they are: beliefs. To say you know God is real is simply untrue and simply disregarding any other beliefs. I believe that the universe just spontaneously existed (BELIEVE, not KNOW), Muslims believe in Allah, Atheists don't believe in any God at all, but these are all beliefs that we have no way to actually prove. I am seriously not trying to disrespect you. I apologize sincerely if I came across as such. I just want you to not twist my words into something they're not. I am not taking offense for something that is true to you, nor am I taking any offense at all. I am simply stating that you can have your beliefs, but cannot rightfully claim them to be facts. I am only being persistent for the sake of getting my original point across, which I haven't seem to have done with enough clarity as of yet. You simply misinterpreted my words. All I was saying is this:

You can believe whatever you want. Just don't claim that your beliefs are facts by any means. Don't twist other peoples' words into some message of spite. This was my original point and I simply repeated it with different words repeatedly. Try to understand me this time, please.

Call me petty, call me whatever you want; religion brings out the worst in me and I can acknowledge that. I am simply trying to get my ONE point across. Thank you for your time. Once again, I am not disrespecting you. I am not disregarding your beliefs as wrong. I am not saying that my beliefs are right. I am simply stating that no one is right in regards to belief. Please try to understand that and not twist my words again. Thank you.
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Amazon D

 

Parables Of The Not-So-Social Gospel

The Lazy Paralytic

1. When Jesus returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at his home. 2. So many gathered around that there was no longer room for them, not even in front of the door; and he was speaking the word to them. 3. Then some people came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4. And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay. 5. When Jesus saw this he grew angry, "Why did you wreck my roof? Do you have any idea how much that cost to install? Do you know how many tables and chairs I had to make in my carpentry shop to pay for that roof? The reeds alone cost five talents. I had them carted in from Bethany." 6. The disciples had never seen Jesus so angry about his possessions. He continued, "This house is my life." The disciples fell silent. 7. "It's bad enough that you trash my private property, now you want me to heal you?" said Jesus, "And did you not see the stone walls around this house?" "Yes," said the man's friends. "Are these not the stone walls native to the Land of Galilee? 8. "No," Jesus answered. "This is a gated community. How did you get in?" The man's friends grew silent. 9. Then Jesus turned to the paralytic and said, "Besides, can't you take care of your own health problems? I'm sure that you're family can care for you, or maybe the synagogue." 10. "No, Lord," answered the man's friends. "There is no one. His injuries are too severe. To whom else can we go?" 11. "Well, not me," said Jesus. "What would happen if I provided free health care for everyone? That would mean that people would not only get lazy, but they would take advantage of the system. 12. Besides, look at me: I'm healthy. And you know why? Because I worked hard for my money." The paralyzed man then grew sad and he addressed Jesus. "But I did work, Lord," said the paralytic. "But an accident rendered me paralyzed." "Yes," said the man's friends. "He worked very hard." 13. "Well," said Jesus, "That's just part of life, isn't it?" "Then what am I to do, Lord?" said the paralytic. "I don't know. Why don't you sell your mat?" 14. All in the crowd then grew sad. "Actually, you know what you can do?" said Jesus. "You can reimburse me for my roof. Or I'll sue." And all were amazed. 15. "We have never seen anything like this," said the crowd.

The Very Poorly Prepared Crowd

1. The day was drawing to a close, and the twelve apostles came to Jesus and said, "Send the crowd away, so that they may go into the surrounding villages and countryside, to lodge and get provisions; for we are here in a deserted place." 2 But Jesus said to them, "Why not give them something to eat?" They said, 'We have no more than five loaves and two fish -- unless we are to go and buy food for all these people. 3 For there were about five thousand men. And Jesus said to his disciples, "You know what? You're right. Don't waste your time and shekels. It would be positively immoral for you to give away your hard-earned salaries for these people. They knew full well that they were coming to a deserted place, and should have relied on themselves to bring more food. As far as I'm concerned, it's every five thousand men for themselves." 4. The disciples were astonished by this teaching. "But Lord," said Thomas. "The crowd will go hungry." Jesus was amazed at his hard-headedness. "That's not my problem, Thomas. Better that their stomachs are empty than they become overly dependent on someone in authority to provide loaves and fishes for them. Where will it end? Will I have to feed them everyday?" "No, Lord," said Thomas, "Just today. When they are without food. When they have eaten their fill, they will be healthy, and so able to listen to your word and learn from you." Jesus was grieved at Thomas's answer. "It is written: There's no such thing as a free lunch." So taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and took one loaf and one fish for himself, and gave the rest to the twelve, based on their previously agreed-upon per diem. But he gave none to the very poorly prepared crowd because they needed to be taught a lesson. So Jesus ate and was filled. The disciples somewhat less so. What was left over was gathered up and saved for Jesus's next meal, should he grow hungry. The very poorly prepared crowd soon dispersed.

The Rich and Therefore Blessed Young Man

1. As Jesus was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to him and knelt before him, and asked, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 2. And Jesus said to him, "What have you done so far?" 3. And he said to Him, "Well I was born into a wealthy family, got into a good school in Galilee because my parents donated a few thousand talents, and have a high-paying job in the Roman treasury managing risk." 4. Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him, for the rich young man was blessed, and said to him, "One thing you lack: A bigger house in a gated community in Tiberias. Buy that and you'll be all set. And make sure you get a stone countertop for the kitchen. Those are really nice." The disciples were amazed. 5. Peter asked him, "Lord, shouldn't he sell all his possessions and give it to the poor?" Jesus grew angry. "Get behind me, Satan! He has earned it!" Peter protested, "Lord," he said, "Did this man not have an unjust advantage? What about those who are not born into wealthy families, or who do not have the benefit of a good education, or live in the poorer areas of Galilee, like Nazareth, your own home town?" 6. "Well," said Jesus, "first of all, that's why I left Nazareth. There were too many poor people always asking for charity. They were as numerous as the stars in the sky, and they annoyed me. Second, once people start spending again, like this rich young man, the Galilean economy will inevitably grow, and eventually it will all trickle down to the poor. Blessed are those who are patient! But giving the money away, especially if he can't write it off, is a big fat waste." The disciples' amazement knew no bounds. "But Lord, what about the Scriptures that tell us to care for the widow, for orphans, for the poor, for the sick, for the refugee? What about all the many passages about justice?" 7. "Those are metaphors," said Jesus. "Don't take everything so literally."
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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SarahM777

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 12:57:24 PM

On one hand, the New Testament says you must go through Christ to go to the Father.
On the Other hand, in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus says the only way to inherit eternal life is by loving your God and your neighbor like yourself.

The two doesn't exactly match up if you read it word for word.


Coming back to this when Jesus said that He is the way,the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by Him,He was speaking to His disciples in the upper room just before His betrayal ,trial and death. He had already spoken many times that He would be lifted up and become a ransom for many. He had come to give sight to the blind,the deaf would hear ,the lame would walk, and He would set the captives free.

Knowing that He was speaking to the disciples who are Jews they would know that by the mosaic law the only way one could come before God was by innocent blood being shed for the covering of sins. It was the only way. Jesus had already been called the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. This had been stated throughout the old testament.

In the old testament God revealed the signs how one could know who the Messiah is. He would be born in Bethlehem,born of a virgin,He would give sight to the blind,make the deaf hear,and make the lame walk. He would be betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver,be hung on a tree and be beaten beyond recognition and He would be raised from the dead before His body would see decay. This was how they would know that the Messiah is God's truth. Jesus was the fulfillment of those signs so He is God's truth.

Jesus had already shown He has the power and authority to raise people from the dead. The grave cold not hold Him because He was innocent of any spot or sin. An innocent man can NOT be convicted under the law and when God raised Him from the dead it was a sign to the truth of what Jesus said and did.

As under the old testament those who call upon the name of the Lord by faith shall be saved.

The two do not contradict each other. Fulfill the law completely and one can have eternal life but does any one you know of loves God above everything else and so totally loves each other in total perfection. Without any bad thoughts,motives,selfishness etc etc?

If the answer is no than NO ONE can fulfill the law and that's why we so need a savior. That is what is so awesome about what Jesus did and who He is. It is so simple a child can understand it.

Living it out on the other hand is a different story altogether. That is very difficult and could cost you everything in this life. But then again on the other hand other than the people around us is anything in this life really worth all that much? Temporary things that can not last or eternity with the God that loves us so much that He paid the greatest price to redeem us? Which is the greater?
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Amazon D

when god puts the inner conscience in us, (all mankind), we then are honoring God, when we follow that inner conscience. Those who do so do not have to know God as taught in the bible. That is why there are THREE ETERNAL DESTINIES.. 

1. those who honor the inner voice put in all mankind
2. those who learn of God and chose to follow and do good according to their inner conscience
3. Those who learn of God and then deny God, as well as not following their inner conscience

for the righteous shall be saved too
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Annah

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 28, 2012, 04:31:34 AM
Coming back to this when Jesus said that He is the way,the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by Him,He was speaking to His disciples in the upper room just before His betrayal ,trial and death. He had already spoken many times that He would be lifted up and become a ransom for many. He had come to give sight to the blind,the deaf would hear ,the lame would walk, and He would set the captives free.

Knowing that He was speaking to the disciples who are Jews they would know that by the mosaic law the only way one could come before God was by innocent blood being shed for the covering of sins. It was the only way. Jesus had already been called the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. This had been stated throughout the old testament.

I know those phrases. I used to be a pentecostal pastor ;)

QuoteIn the old testament God revealed the signs how one could know who the Messiah is. He would be born in Bethlehem,born of a virgin,

In Hebrew it wasn't a virgin. It was a young handmaiden. The Hebrew word for virgin was never implied for the Mother of the Messiah. The word "virgin" from a sexual connotative sense came from the translations of the Greek Sept.

And yes, to the Hebrew people. Not necessarily for everyone and not necessarily just one "Messiah"

QuoteAn innocent man can NOT be convicted under the law and when God raised Him from the dead it was a sign to the truth of what Jesus said and did.

Others were raised from the dead on the third day as well. The story of Mithra (written 1000 years prior to the Christ story) tells of Mithra:

Being born of a virgin
Being a shepherd like person
The son of a God
Mithra's birth celebrated near the Winter Solstice (same as Christ's)
Mithra had twelve disciples
Mithra emphasized man's salvation through his redemptive death
Both were killed
Both were resurrected on the third day.
Both had a last supper
Both stressed Baptism (Mithra was a baptism of Ox blood...Christ of Water..Christ's blood symbolic in the Eucharist)
Sunday for Mithra and Christians is sacred

(there's more...and there are more outside religious comparison)

The reason why I bring this up is to show that there are other similar salvation/Messiah stories out there. This is why I stressed that the OT sayings are stressing points for a Judeo/Christian culture but isn't necessarily applicable as a universal truth for EVERYONE.

QuoteAs under the old testament those who call upon the name of the Lord by faith shall be saved.

Agreed. However, other religious texts outside Judaism and Christianity says the same thing. So. Which one is right? Is there only one right one? How can you be sure that your holy book is the only right one and the others are false? Other holy books also warn of false books out there too. Including books that are much older than the Old Testament.

QuoteThe two do not contradict each other.

I never said they did. You may want to reread the entire comment ;)

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SarahM777

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:27:04 AM

Others were raised from the dead on the third day as well. The story of Mithra (written 1000 years prior to the Christ story) tells of Mithra:

Being born of a virgin
Being a shepherd like person
The son of a God
Mithra's birth celebrated near the Winter Solstice (same as Christ's)
Mithra had twelve disciples
Mithra emphasized man's salvation through his redemptive death
Both were killed
Both were resurrected on the third day.
Both had a last supper
Both stressed Baptism (Mithra was a baptism of Ox blood...Christ of Water..Christ's blood symbolic in the Eucharist)
Sunday for Mithra and Christians is sacred

(there's more...and there are more outside religious comparison)

The reason why I bring this up is to show that there are other similar salvation/Messiah stories out there. This is why I stressed that the OT sayings are stressing points for a Judeo/Christian culture but isn't necessarily applicable as a universal truth for EVERYONE.

Agreed. However, other religious texts outside Judaism and Christianity says the same thing. So. Which one is right? Is there only one right one? How can you be sure that your holy book is the only right one and the others are false? Other holy books also warn of false books out there too. Including books that are much older than the Old Testament.


The one that is right should be able to be verified to a degree.  Outside of the Bible where is any historical backing to what they say? How do you know that this person ever existed at all? If it's a mystery why is it a mystery? If God is trying to save people than why does it have to be shrouded in secracy? Wouldn't it make more sense that if God is trying to save His people then wouldn't He spell it out and have proofs that His word is true?

How is it that Babylon,Nineveh,Tyre,Sidon,Sodom and Gommorah,Jericho and other places have been located? What about the Medes and the Persians? What about the Canaanites and their practices? How is it that the spread of humanity across the globe fits the Biblical account of the tower of Babel? History shows that people spread out from Mesopotamia which is where Babylon is?
What about the Pilate stone?

Do you realize that a nomadic tribe could go from Jerusalem to Rio Grande,Argentina in less than 5 years traveling at ten miles a day? Just as three points of reference,It took less than150 years to go from the east to west coast of the US about 3,000 miles,pony express riders went from St Joesph,MO to San Francisco in 10 days a travel of about 1,600 miles,Lewis and Clark traveled over 8,000 miles in 2 years,4 months and 10 days. (without trains or motorized transportation.) The ididarod takes 10 days to go 1,000 miles by dogsled. It may not be accurate to say it took that long. Nomads do not have permanent structures.

No one can explain why if the New Testament account is not true,why did it not die out within the short time frame of when it was first preached in about AD 33 when there was yet eye witnesses to the account and within 25 years Claudius was throwing the Jews out of Rome because of the riots because the Gospel was being preached in Rome,within 35 years Nero was persecuting the Christians within Rome. How is it within that time frame it wasn't killed off?

Why is it that no one ever swears in any other name other than Jesus name?

How do you explain why the Jews after 1900 years of exile are now back in the land that God promised them? Why are they the most hated,reviled,and persecuted group ever,only because of their race? Why is it in the last 70 years in spite of every war that has been waged against them being far,far out numbered they won? If God's hand is not with them how do you explain it?

None of this makes any sense unless the Bible is God's revealed word.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:27:04 AM

I never said they did. You may want to reread the entire comment ;)



I do apologize. I took it as you implied it and not stated it.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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