A believer who thinks we have been duped.

[SarahM777]

Israel Part 3

Again more predictions that Israel would once again be a nation

Amos about 750 BC

Amos 9:11-15

11 "In that day

"I will restore David's fallen shelter—
    I will repair its broken walls
    and restore its ruins—
    and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
    and all the nations that bear my name,[e]"
declares the Lord, who will do these things.
13 "The days are coming," declares the Lord,

"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
    and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
    and flow from all the hills,
14     and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[f]
"They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
    They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
    they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
    never again to be uprooted
    from the land I have given them,"
says the Lord your God.

Ezekiel written between 593-571 BC

Ezekiel 37:1-11

The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"

I said, "Sovereign Lord, you alone know."

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'" 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"

Again in Chapter 37:21-22

and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.


Again in Chapter 34:11-14

11 "'For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.

[Annah]

the scriptures are nice. But it still doesn't change what I already stated previously.

[Julie Wilson]

Confirmation bias is powerful stuff.

Although I was raised Catholic for some reason both myself, my sister and my brother came to be fundamentalists.  I was always reading the bible, writing down passages and it even felt like god was guiding me.  Other people in my Reformed Presbyterian church would read the studies I had written and they were amazed how I was about to tie everything together.

Most people spend their lives believing (as in an action) because they can never know (as in an achievement) where there would be some closure or knowledge gained.  But with religion and especially fundamentalist and Zionist Christianity the believers believe.  And anything that supports their beliefs is leaped upon as evidence just as anything that disproves their beliefs is looked upon as a test by Satan or a test of their faith or a test of their beliefs or as just plain wrong.

They are called believers because that's what they do no matter what the facts are.  Why they do it is the question.  You can never disprove a believer let alone a true believer.  I think like any other behavior one has to go to the root of the belief in order to understand the irrational behavior.  Why does a person believe?  Most belief in religion is perpetuated by childhood indoctrination.  The people who are supposed to love the child more than anyone else indoctrinate the child and even hand the child over to others who will continue the indoctrination.

Because of my own childhood indoctrination and because I was never allowed to think for myself I came to the conclusion that there had to be a god, it then became a matter of finding the right god.  Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelist...  I kept seeking stricter churches in hope that god would forgive me and remove my GID curse.  It was like someone created a reality in my head, one where there absolutely had to be a god and if you didn't believe in him you went to hell for all of eternity.

I actually believed (was taught) that no one could be a good person unless they believed in god.  I ended up in a church that met on a farm and when they weren't praising the lord they were talking about the second coming.  These were the most extreme xtians I had ever known.  But after spending a a while in this end times group of believers, growing vegetables, canning, singing, witnessing and all that neat stuff I finally looked around me and I noticed that these were some of the least functional and most dysfunctional people I had ever met in my life.  And they weren't getting any better.  And god hadn't seen fit to cure me of my GID curse.  I was finally willing to admit that a huge sham had been perpetuated on me.  I realized how many years of my life I had flushed down the toilet and I realized my idiocy and still, recovery wasn't easy and I occasionally back-slid but I got through it.  Honestly I think childhood indoctrination into religion is the most powerful addiction to overcome.  The evidence is irrelevant.  Belief is an effort entirely spent by the believer, like trying to hold your breath under water and the goal of the believer is to get back under the water as soon as they have taken a sinful breath of air. In my humble opinion.

[Annah]

the problem with eschatology (the second coming of Christ and the end times) is that it is never right.

Even the Apostles got it wrong when they said "Jesus will return within our generation." Well, they died and dozens more generations has come and gone. No Jesus.

So, people will look into the prophecies. They come up with mathematical formulas, hints, "mystic hidden truths" and everything else under the sun to predict Jesus coming again. And every single time they have gotten it wrong or come up with other excuses saying "Jesus already came back." (Jack Van Impe, Rev. Hag Hagee, Hal Lindsey, Rev. Copeland, the Book "88 reasons why Jesus will come back in 1998, Harold Camping saying the Rapture would be in May 2011 and when that was wrong..October 2011, etc etc).

The Zionist movement is under the same sway. They believe by funneling millions into Israel (under the guise of "we love our Jewish sisters and brothers") they hope this will be the strength of Israel to the pinnacle of which they will tear down the Muslim's Dome of the Rock and place the Jewish Temple there in it's stead.  Their line of "thinking" is that with the Temple in place, this will usher in the AntiChrist to commit the "Desolation of Abomination" under their interpretation of The Book of Revelation; thus ushering in the Second Coming of Christ.

This is why I stress that the Old Testament books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, etc etc and the New Testament's Book of Revelation are NOT books of prophecy. They are so much more than simple gas station horoscope scrolls. When people dwell on "the prophecies" of these books, the lose the true meaning.

Besides, the Book of Revelation was never meant to be some futuristic book on a new world order. It was a book written for the people over 2000 years ago to keep their guard up due to the Roman related persecution. When Rome became a Christian state, the Book of Revelation was no longer a handbook of survival.

[SarahM777]

the scriptures are nice. But it still doesn't change what I already stated previously.

Again it doesn't change that even though they may appear to be the same in some aspects they are also very different. Again is the story taken off of works of art or is it written down? If the story about Mithra comes from the art forms then it is highly subjective to the meaning of the art. Same as ink blots. It's what do you see in it. Written form is much less subjective than art. Again I ask how do you know he even existed?

Most of the multi-deist religions all have a sun god,moon god,fertility god,god of war,etc etc etc. Does that mean they are all talking about the same gods? Just because Islam talks about the Mauhdid,which by the way their vision of the end times is far closer to the book of Revelation than the story of Mithar is to Christ. And we know for a fact that Islam came way after Revelation was written.

Without eye witnesses,written documentation,verifiable accounts to the persons life,how do you now that it is nothing more than a Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn type of yarn,placed in times and places that did happen?

[SarahM777]

Besides, the Book of Revelation was never meant to be some futuristic book on a new world order. It was a book written for the people over 2000 years ago to keep their guard up due to the Roman related persecution. When Rome became a Christian state, the Book of Revelation was no longer a handbook of survival.

If it was only meant as a guide book to survival there should be statements that will either confirm that or deny that.
So lets take a good look at one of the passages.

Revelation 17:7-11

7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Four times John refutes that it is happening in the time that he wrote it down. Four times he states once was,is not now,and three time he states is yet to come. Yet to come is a future tense not present or past.

The seven heads are seven kings,he then goes on to state five have fallen,Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Persian,and the Greek empire had already fallen,the one king that is Rome and there is yet another that is to come. If that kingdom is yet to come how can it be in the present time when John wrote Revelation?

[MariaMx]

SarahM777, the prophecies you have listed are about what I expected and similar to other proofs of authenticity I've heard from other religious groups. Islam is rife with this stuff. You should look into the claims because it is very easy to spot the mistakes in their thinking when you are not a believer, and to be honest, some of their proofs are on the surface more convincing than what you have shared here. Do a google search for Dr. Maurice Bucaille and Dr. Keith L. Moore. It is a rather interesting study in how easily we, as humans, can fool ourselves if we don't scrutinize the information we are given to digest. Also it's a good exercise in sharpening our skills in critical thinking.

Now about the prophecies. Annah has brought up an important point, namely, the time the prophecies were written. If they were written after the fact, well, then they can be dismissed outright without any further discussion. Obviously the text you pasted in was written before 1948 but that doesn't really matter because it is too generic to warrant the conclusion that the author had actual foreknowledge of the events to take place 2000+ years later. Coincidence is simply not an unreasonable explanation. If you can't rule out explanations as mundane as simple coincidence then you can't conclude that a supernatural natural explanation is the correct one. You assume there is only one possible explanation while there in fact are more. As trite and cliché as it may sound, this is a classic example for the application of Occam's razor to resolve the issue.

[Julie Wilson]

Back when I cared and was trying to believe I stuck with the idea that the second coming of Christ was in 72 AD.  Fortunately I no longer believe or care ^_^ .  I just wish I could have that lost time back.

[Amazon D]

the problem with eschatology (the second coming of Christ and the end times) is that it is never right.

Even the Apostles got it wrong when they said "Jesus will return within our generation." Well, they died and dozens more generations has come and gone. No Jesus.

So, people will look into the prophecies. They come up with mathematical formulas, hints, "mystic hidden truths" and everything else under the sun to predict Jesus coming again. And every single time they have gotten it wrong or come up with other excuses saying "Jesus already came back." (Jack Van Impe, Rev. Hag Hagee, Hal Lindsey, Rev. Copeland, the Book "88 reasons why Jesus will come back in 1998, Harold Camping saying the Rapture would be in May 2011 and when that was wrong..October 2011, etc etc).

The Zionist movement is under the same sway. They believe by funneling millions into Israel (under the guise of "we love our Jewish sisters and brothers") they hope this will be the strength of Israel to the pinnacle of which they will tear down the Muslim's Dome of the Rock and place the Jewish Temple there in it's stead.  Their line of "thinking" is that with the Temple in place, this will usher in the AntiChrist to commit the "Desolation of Abomination" under their interpretation of The Book of Revelation; thus ushering in the Second Coming of Christ.

This is why I stress that the Old Testament books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, etc etc and the New Testament's Book of Revelation are NOT books of prophecy. They are so much more than simple gas station horoscope scrolls. When people dwell on "the prophecies" of these books, the lose the true meaning.

Besides, the Book of Revelation was never meant to be some futuristic book on a new world order. It was a book written for the people over 2000 years ago to keep their guard up due to the Roman related persecution. When Rome became a Christian state, the Book of Revelation was no longer a handbook of survival.

I thought the zionist were the NWO peeps (rothschilds illuminati) who have used Israel to garner pity (from the USA) from the holocaust to gain control over the oil in the middle east. I do know many jews are upset at the zionist who try to start WW3 as most jews have gotten along with muslims for eons but then the zionist got involved and distorted the truth of that relationship. Many jews in israel speak about this but do not own the news to publicise it but are doing in online these days.

Also wasn't it constantine who changed Yahshua / Jashua  into jesus and changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday.

[Annah]

NWO is part of a Zionist movement yes. They have the same end results in mind: to herald the second coming of Christ through violence.

The evangelical Zionists are more subtle in their approach: they give the money to Israel to build the Temple, and that will spur on a war between the Muslim nations and Israel (because the Dome of the Rock is the most holy temple for Muslims...if you tear that down, there will be a war).

Evangelical interpretations state that there has to be a war in order for Christ to come back and there has to be a Jewish temple on the mount. This is why Zionists are funneling millions of dollars into Israel for a rebuild the temple project.

Israel isn't stupid. They know evangelicals are using them for religious end time purposes....but they're isn't much complaining since Israel is receiving millions of US dollars yearly from this sect. 

[Annah]

Sarah, i dont mean to be killing a dead horse with this issue...but the scripture you gave me again just proves my point concerning prophecy.

Of course John will say all these kingdoms have fallen....cause they already had fallen. And of course, many knew it was only a matter of time Rome would fall because they were in a state of crises even when John wrote Revelation. Not only that, but every kingdom in the past had fallen...it was a sure bet that Rome would fall too.

Matter of fact, it was apparent that Rome would fall. Christians had sent missionaries to the Goths, other Germanic tribes, and as far as England. They became close to these factions so that when the time came for Rome to fall, the Christians had allies on the outside.

This why Rome fell, the Senate was dissolved but the Christian hierarchy was untouched. The Christian "state" survived the sacking of Rome because they built up allies. It is why the Holy Roman Empire had succeeded as it did...converting many Goths and others into Christian states.

In my opinion, it had nothing to do with scrying or reading the future. It had to do with state diplomacy.

[SarahM777]

It does not appear that even if I went through all 2,000 fulfilled prophecies it would still not change your mind. I begin to wonder if any thing I have said in the last 1 1/2 has made any difference to anyone here. Perhaps I don't belong here.

[Amazon D]

NWO is part of a Zionist movement yes. They have the same end results in mind: to herald the second coming of Christ through violence.

The evangelical Zionists are more subtle in their approach: they give the money to Israel to build the Temple, and that will spur on a war between the Muslim nations and Israel (because the Dome of the Rock is the most holy temple for Muslims...if you tear that down, there will be a war).

Evangelical interpretations state that there has to be a war in order for Christ to come back and there has to be a Jewish temple on the mount. This is why Zionists are funneling millions of dollars into Israel for a rebuild the temple project.

Israel isn't stupid. They know evangelicals are using them for religious end time purposes....but they're isn't much complaining since Israel is receiving millions of US dollars yearly from this sect.

I agree about the evangelical movement but i thought the NWO was the anti christ movement that wants to destroy all of humanity in the name of power.. I thought they wanted to force everyone to wear the chip to buy or sell and then be able to control all the earths people. I didn't think they wanted to end the world to have yahshua come back again??

. So yes we agree there are two zionist movements..

[Annah]

It does not appear that even if I went through all 2,000 fulfilled prophecies it would still not change your mind. I begin to wonder if any thing I have said in the last 1 1/2 has made any difference to anyone here. Perhaps I don't belong here.

it doesn't mean you don't belong here

It just means I disagree with you about the prophecies. That's all.

If you did went through all 2,000+ prophecies, I would still respectfully disagree with you because of the simple matter that the OT Prophets were written during and after the prophecy in which they were written for.

[SarahM777]

It's beyond that. I have seen the signs way to many times in my life. There comes a point in time where one realizes they are not wanted around.

[justmeinoz]

The Bible cannot be read as history the way we know it today,  that is quite obvious.  If Noah took 2 of all the animals, how come only Australia has kangaroos then?  We have all seen too many points where contradictory stories are presented.  Reading it as attempts to make sense of the world from limited knowledge, and as instructional allegory is more productive.
I have trouble with passages like Romans 1:32 that say I deserve death though.  My distant relatives who left concentration camps via the chimney, are a reminder of where this mentality leads when in the hands of literalists.

[Amazon D]

It's beyond that. I have seen the signs way to many times in my life. There comes a point in time where one realizes they are not wanted around.

Sarah we love you being here sharing. You are educating many of us and making us think.. hugs

[Annah]

It's beyond that. I have seen the signs way to many times in my life. There comes a point in time where one realizes they are not wanted around.

just because someone disagrees with you on a religious issue does not meant we don't want you around.

[SarahM777]

Sarah we love you being here sharing. You are educating many of us and making us think.. hugs

Thanks Danielle,

I need ed to hear that so badly.

Hugs

[SarahM777]

just because someone disagrees with you on a religious issue does not meant we don't want you around.

Annah,

It's not that. I am just feeling so very,very alone. Dealing with the GID is bad enough. Trying to deal with it from a more fundamentalist direction doesn't make it any easier and to most it makes no sense at all. Knowing that a lot of people in here are very bitter towards those professing a faith that is closer in line with a fundamentalist does not go over very well here. Even though both have gone through much the same,the only difference is that one was able to hold on to their faith. To often I hear the bad from both sides while being caught in the middle because I am in both groups.

Is it any wonder that some days I feel like the odd one out?