A believer who thinks we have been duped.

[Annah]

Sarah

When it comes to you being a fundamentalist Christian and a transgender, unfortunately, you are the odd one out. I do not say this to pick on you but I know how the fundamentalist church is. I used to work for them.

They see you as an abomination. They see your lifestyle as a sin and a blight. I have seen so many children, teenagers, and adults get pushed to the verge of suicide because of what their churches and their traditions accuse them of (or how they make them out to be outcasts and sinners) Many are lucky to even have a chance to attend a fundamentalist church and working for them as a volunteer is out of the question.

The reason why so many have such a hard time with fundamentalists (in any religion) is because their end results is usually to point out how many sins the other person has. They pick and chose their own scripture to their liken. For example, they say homosexuality is wrong because of Leviticus, but they will glance over the part in Leviticus where the Lord forbade the Israelites from letting people with physical and mental disabilities into the church. Now, of course, a fundamentalist church will never not allow a disabled person from entering their church. However, the question I have to ask is "why do they see the Leviticus code of homosexuality still wrong but the Leviticus code against disabled people as 'not with this time and place'?"

I have not found one person who could answer that satisfactory without having to compromise their literal interpretations.

We have a transgender person who just started attended our church three weeks ago. She was kicked out of her church when she told the Pastor. However, she is struggling with our  "non fundamentalist" beliefs here. It happens but I do know she will never be welcome in any church as a functioning member if she is in a fundamentalist church. I have yet to see a church that fully welcomes gay people and be fundamentalist. And trust me, I've been looking.

Yes, you do belong here. Just because I disagree with your interpretations of the Bible does not mean you are not a valued member here. People disagree and the most important thing is that while we disagree with each other we can still respect one another and I certainly respect you.

[Amazon D]

Annah,

It's not that. I am just feeling so very,very alone. Dealing with the GID is bad enough. Trying to deal with it from a more fundamentalist direction doesn't make it any easier and to most it makes no sense at all. Knowing that a lot of people in here are very bitter towards those professing a faith that is closer in line with a fundamentalist does not go over very well here. Even though both have gone through much the same,the only difference is that one was able to hold on to their faith. To often I hear the bad from both sides while being caught in the middle because I am in both groups.

Is it any wonder that some days I feel like the odd one out?

Hey i feel like the odd one out here with you two who have so much book knowledge.. 

Just know we all have our times when we feel different, but here beyond it all is our susans.org love 

Remember much that i offered here wasn't even thought about let alone answered.. 

[SarahM777]

Sarah

When it comes to you being a fundamentalist Christian and a transgender, unfortunately, you are the odd one out. I do not say this to pick on you but I know how the fundamentalist church is. I used to work for them.

They see you as an abomination. They see your lifestyle as a sin and a blight. I have seen so many children, teenagers, and adults get pushed to the verge of suicide because of what their churches and their traditions accuse them of (or how they make them out to be outcasts and sinners) Many are lucky to even have a chance to attend a fundamentalist church and working for them as a volunteer is out of the question.

The reason why so many have such a hard time with fundamentalists (in any religion) is because their end results is usually to point out how many sins the other person has. They pick and chose their own scripture to their liken. For example, they say homosexuality is wrong because of Leviticus, but they will glance over the part in Leviticus where the Lord forbade the Israelites from letting people with physical and mental disabilities into the church. Now, of course, a fundamentalist church will never not allow a disabled person from entering their church. However, the question I have to ask is "why do they see the Leviticus code of homosexuality still wrong but the Leviticus code against disabled people as 'not with this time and place'?"

I have not found one person who could answer that satisfactory without having to compromise their literal interpretations.

We have a transgender person who just started attended our church three weeks ago. She was kicked out of her church when she told the Pastor. However, she is struggling with our  "non fundamentalist" beliefs here. It happens but I do know she will never be welcome in any church as a functioning member if she is in a fundamentalist church. I have yet to see a church that fully welcomes gay people and be fundamentalist. And trust me, I've been looking.

Yes, you do belong here. Just because I disagree with your interpretations of the Bible does not mean you are not a valued member here. People disagree and the most important thing is that while we disagree with each other we can still respect one another and I certainly respect you.

I was brought up Lutheran Missouri Synod,then went to an Assemblys,then a CMA,then back to an Assemblys,now back to a Missouri Synod. I was brought up also with Chuck Swindoll and John MacArthur,Petra,Phil Keaggy,Twila Paris and Michael Card so..... but thankfully not Billy Graham,the guy with the crystal cathedral,TBN,Jack Hyles or Billy Sunday.

Where I split off is that they are missing one very major part. Jesus never ever brow beat anyone to follow Him. He always said come follow Me. Where is the compassion that He showed? He at times would point out what they were doing wrong but He forgave them and said "Go and sin no more"  The thing I had the hardest time getting through was just how much compassion He has for us. Can you imagine if the church was to walk and talk like Jesus how much the world could be changed for the better.

I do respect you Annah,you have gotten further in seminary than I did. I had a real hard time just trying to start to get through the four years of liberal arts. (Why you would need calculus is beyond me) 80 hour weeks did not work out too well 

If we keep an open mind one can often see things that one never thought of before.

[SarahM777]

Hey i feel like the odd one out here with you two who have so much book knowledge.. 

Just know we all have our times when we feel different, but here beyond it all is our susans.org love 

Remember much that i offered here wasn't even thought about let alone answered.. 

No need to feel embarrassed. I just love to read a lot and have all those silly answers to Trivial Pursuit (I read Shogun in 2 days and I'm not a speed reader)

[Julie Wilson]

I hope you don't mind me using the GOD'S WORD translation but I prefer one that doesn't refer to being a man and prefer reference to being an adult instead.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I no longer used childish ways.

The whole idea about God, Jesus and the Scriptures (in my opinion) was to help the so-called "believer" to have a rich, rewarding and fulfilling life while loving one another in healthy ways that promote a world full of peace and fulfillment.  We are supposed to love one-another in healthy ways, end of discussion, that is the goal of Christianity.

Churches that argue scripture and doctrine and don't get along are engaging in Childish Ways (in my opinion).  Trying to find truth in the bible is a Childish Pursuit (in my opinion).  This Jesus you speak of put his whole law into your heart, this "Knowledge of Good and of Evil".  The fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden, a story about why life isn't perfect.

I mean because if you believe in a loving god who created you then you might come to ask yourself, "Why did this loving god give me cancer, why does this loving god allow my friends to die, why has this loving god created so much evil and suffering, why does he allow it to persist?

So someone wrote a story to explain to people (who needed to believe in a Sky Daddy) why things were the way they were so they could continue to spend their time and effort worshiping an entity they imagined existed in the heavens, up where the clouds floated around. 

The Bible is a conundrum, on the one hand it is about loving your neighbor, being a good person and even being of service to your fellow human.  On the other hand it is a warning to love your neighbor, be a good person and be of service to your fellow human.  And there is some weird stuff thrown in by people who were probably doing mushrooms or drunk or who wanted to see if people would actually believe what they wrote or maybe they were in positions in the "church" and had to produce something to justify their position by writing something that would satisfy the "church".

But the whole law exists in your heart and religion is a distraction and a childish thing.  And it's time to put away things that cause offense and make it difficult to obey the law.  (In my humble opinion).

The truth is it's really easy to obey the law in your heart if your head isn't full of children's toys and dominating the sand box or taking your toys and going home in order to feel "right" about something.  Life isn't a treasure hunt, it's about making the most of what you already have.  If you are looking for treasure look in your heart, not in a bunch of stupid books that were created to help a primitive people maintain social structure in and during a time that was relevant to their culture and situation.  IMHO

[Cindi Jones]

The real reasons for the construction of the Bible are legion. In the beginning (500 years after the exodus), King Josia had the oral traditions written down so he could purge other religions from his realm and strengthen his position as King. Hezekiah, 150 years later, did a rewrite for the same purposes. They did not like people praying in high places... especially when it wasn't a religion that conformed to the law.

... and that was just the beginning.

I love ancient history.

[SarahM777]

If one takes the Bible literally,there is a question which most of them can not answer,in the way it is laid out in the Bible. Ask this and most do not even realize it. Which came first after the fall was it grace or the law? Most will answer that the law came first,but it's not. How did Abel know about a sacrifice? In Biblical terms a sacrifice was a means of grace. Even in Leviticus grace comes BEFORE the law. Leviticus Chapters 4-7 goes into forgiveness before the Levitical laws are given.

Even in Exodus

Exodus 33:19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ask them this Is the law greater than mercy or is mercy greater than the law? The answer should be that mercy is greater than the law.

[justmeinoz]

This is the sort of thing I have problems with,

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Unconditional love doesn't seem to get a look in, although we are supposed to practice it .  If that is truly how god works, I'll go with Crom, Odin or any other deity  thanks!

[SarahM777]

Then what is the condition. There is one

Romans 10:11-13

11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

13 is taken from Joel 2:32

Pretty simple don't you think? It sounds like the only ones not included are those who will not call on the name of the Lord. But for one to do so they must be able to humble themselves,because one must come to the point of realizing that one can not save themselves.

[SarahM777]

They see you as an abomination. They see your lifestyle as a sin and a blight. I have seen so many children, teenagers, and adults get pushed to the verge of suicide because of what their churches and their traditions accuse them of (or how they make them out to be outcasts and sinners) Many are lucky to even have a chance to attend a fundamentalist church and working for them as a volunteer is out of the question.

You need to add a couple of more things. Talked to my friend (Ex Lutheran Pastor) this morning and he reminded me according to the Lutheran Church I am also a heretic and of the devil. And you know what they do to those who they call heretics. I may have to keep an eye on the parking lot for firewood and stakes.   

[Annah]

The real reasons for the construction of the Bible are legion. In the beginning (500 years after the exodus), King Josia had the oral traditions written down so he could purge other religions from his realm and strengthen his position as King. Hezekiah, 150 years later, did a rewrite for the same purposes. They did not like people praying in high places... especially when it wasn't a religion that conformed to the law.

... and that was just the beginning.

I love ancient history.

Omg i am really impressed!  I cant tell you how many seminarians have broke down in tears when they learned Moses did not write all of that

[Annah]

You need to add a couple of more things. Talked to my friend (Ex Lutheran Pastor) this morning and he reminded me according to the Lutheran Church I am also a heretic and of the devil. And you know what they do to those who they call heretics. I may have to keep an eye on the parking lot for firewood and stakes.   

There are a couple Lutheran sects who are against LGBT but the main Lutheran church is opened and affirming

[SarahM777]

There are a couple Lutheran sects who are against LGBT but the main Lutheran church is opened and affirming

If it was only the LGBT issues I could deal with it. The synod is cracking down on the pastors to bring them in line with the rigid doctrinal statements. Trying to dig them out is like pulling teeth some days.They give you enough of the basics but leave out to much of the foundation and I am just finding this out now. I am founding out just how different my views are and that is not good.

Right now the head pastor is very close to synod and he is trying to get the church in line with synod. They have let 7 pastors go in the last 10 years and not by their choice.

If I was by myself I would leave. I just have to wait till my mom is ready to leave. The only friends she has are there and I don't want to take that away from her. With her not being able to drive,and it's a 25 minute drive each way,it's just easier to stay with her time the service is over and she can take some time to talk with her friends.

It is what it is.

[Cindi Jones]

I was told I committed a sin "second only that to murder." I was labeled a "son of perdition" and condemned to "spend eternity in Lucifer's realm."  That's pretty harsh and eventually did push me to suicide. I took as many sleeping pills as I could swallow. It didn't work. Several hours later, I threw up and spent the next two days, alone, in my apartment, scruffing on the floor on my bare elbows and knees running away from fundamentalist demons. When I came to, the place was in complete disarray, vomit in my closet, the tables and chairs were tipped over. My elbows, knees and hands were bloody with blood all over the floors and furniture. What fun.

I don't need that. I left it behind me. I can find compassion and good moral values without the chain of guilt strung around my neck. I simply cannot support religion because of the gross inconsistencies. If a book IS from God, it should be nearly perfect in that regard. I haven't seen one that is. 

I know that a person can be a very spiritual believer and not be strung to the wall like I was, so I definitely do not speak for everyone. To them, I give my love and appreciation. For they literally have been saviours to me.

Peace be upon you.
Cindi

[SarahM777]

Omg i am really impressed!  I cant tell you how many seminarians have broke down in tears when they learned Moses did not write all of that

I don't understand why would they be surprised that Moses didn't write all of it?

[SarahM777]

I was told I committed a sin "second only that to murder." I was labeled a "son of perdition" and condemned to "spend eternity in Lucifer's realm." 

Too often the words of a modern day Pharisee. Thank God I am not a sinner like YOU!!!!. (Pointing finger)
(See in reality I am sooooo much better then YOU!!! I don't do those things and I can be your judge because I am so much more perfect than you. God must love ME more than you because you do all those vile and disgusting things. By the way you are just way to weird for us and we really just don't want you hanging around us because you may just pass it along. I mean after all it must be some sort of virus and maybe we can catch it and we don't really want your kind around us. EWWWWWW!!!!)

  That's pretty harsh and eventually did push me to suicide. I took as many sleeping pills as I could swallow. It didn't work. Several hours later, I threw up and spent the next two days, alone, in my apartment, scruffing on the floor on my bare elbows and knees running away from fundamentalist demons. When I came to, the place was in complete disarray, vomit in my closet, the tables and chairs were tipped over. My elbows, knees and hands were bloody with blood all over the floors and furniture. What fun.

That's a hard place to be. Thankfully you survived it.

[Annah]

I don't understand why would they be surprised that Moses didn't write all of it?

because many people still believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

In all actuality, The first two books were written by at least four different authors. The first two chapters (creation story) of Genesis was written by two different authors.

Most of the Deuteronomical and Levitical books were written by King Josiah over a thousand years after what the "traditional"story says it was written.

So think about this...it wasn't until after Solomon's great great great great grandson, where Leviticus and Deuteronomy was written. Most of the Pentateuch wasn't even in existence during King David's reign. The Psalms and Proverbs are much older than the first five books of the Hebrew Bible.

Job is more than likely the most oldest book in the Holy Scripture.

[Annah]

I know that a person can be a very spiritual believer and not be strung to the wall like I was, so I definitely do not speak for everyone. To them, I give my love and appreciation. For they literally have been saviours to me.

Peace be upon you.
Cindi

I agree with this.

For me, the number of thing that I look at to see a particular religion as being wonderful is one act: Love.

In my opinion, it is love that commonly will unite any religion, secularist ideal,...everything. It is the bond that can enter twin within everything and it should.

Fear should never be a motivator. Love lasts a lot longer than fear.

[SarahM777]

because many people still believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

In all actuality, The first two books were written by at least four different authors. The first two chapters (creation story) of Genesis was written by two different authors.

Most of the Deuteronomical and Levitical books were written by King Josiah over a thousand years after what the "traditional"story says it was written.

So think about this...it wasn't until after Solomon's great great great great grandson, where Leviticus and Deuteronomy was written. Most of the Pentateuch wasn't even in existence during King David's reign. The Psalms and Proverbs are much older than the first five books of the Hebrew Bible.

Job is more than likely the most oldest book in the Holy Scripture.

Even if one were to take the line that Moses wrote it,what does one do with Deuteronomy Chapters 31-34.
The very context within the Bible tells you he didn't write those four chapters. The first three are his farewell speech,end of 33,Moses on that very same day he isto go to the top of Mount Nebo to die.

48 On that same day the Lord told Moses, 49 "Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession. 50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. 51 This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. 52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel."

So unless somehow he had time to write down chapters 31-33 and unless he was told before hand there is no way he wrote 34 which is his death. 

Deuteronomy 34:5-8

5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

Just within the context of the Bible itself it points to the fact that most likely it was a different writer at that point.

It goes back to the fact most Christians do not know much about the New Testament let alone that they know even less about the Old Testament. At best they know just the "highlights",the traditional 50 main stories and that's it.

[Cindi Jones]

This is the way I look at religion: There are many fine spiritual people. They are the face of faith. There are many people who profess to be religious. They are the face of power, authority, and greed.