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What do you think about today trend of girly males, is it good for us (mtf)?

Started by Medusa, April 17, 2012, 07:37:20 AM

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AbraCadabra

Well now, THESE type threads have ways to become confrontational - most ALWAYS drifting away from the SUBJET at hand: What do you think about today's trend of girly males, is it good for us (MtF)?

I still think that this type high exposure of non-MtF, males is in NO WAY helpful to our specific situation (MtF). The subject CLEARLY speaks of MALES, girly males, sporting a full beards, no less.

Please... does any male acting in this way become some trans-* what ever, and so support our issues?
They are a parody of themselves, I think.
Little to do with anything female as such, other then in being some sort of joke?
Things are to be seen within some cultural context, - like it or not.

Given such, I do not see at all "them climbing the same mountain..."

They climb SOME mountain, OK, but not the mountain we are busy climbing.
THAT IS THE ISSUE, in my understanding.

WHY should one figure this sort of circus-number be of any help to some "mainstream" MtF?
If that be so... any clown, Tom, Dick and Harry be supporting us then... just because THEY ARE DIFFERENT?

This in answer to the OP's question asked: "NO, I think this is not helpful at all."

Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Stephe

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:25:08 PM
I think they climb SOME mountain, but not the mountain we are busy climbing.
THAT IS THE ISSUE, in my understanding.
WHY should one think this sort of circus-number be of any help to some "mainstream" MtF?

First, lets narrow this down to "the mountain I am busy climbing"

And second, drop the "this sort of circus-number" talk given this same label could have likely been used about you at some point by someone who didn't understand.
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Rabbit

You seem kinda hostile towards fem guys :|  ((which, I identify as))

I gotta say, I'm climbing a lot of the same mountains you (and many mtf's) are...

The only mountain I'm not climbing is the "I'm really a girl" one (which, I guess I still need to battle... because people assume I am female quite often now... even my friends and family are insisting that I don't count as a guy anymore and I'm really a girl...).

But, besides that, I'm still helping out to bring more understanding towards transgendered issues (not just transsexual). I actually spend a lot of my time educating those around me about the subject.

So, how exactly am I not helpful at all?
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AbraCadabra

Quote from: Stephe on April 18, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
First, lets narrow this down to "the mountain I am busy climbing"

And second, drop the "this sort of circus-number" talk given this same label could have likely been used about you at some point by someone who didn't understand.

1) So, anyone climbing SOME odd mountain helps any MtF then? That is quite a stretch in deed.

2) I have seen "Lady with a Beard" in more the one circus display, I have not seen folks on display MtF... in deed we do TRY so real hard NOT to be on display... never mind in any circus.

3) I mentioned it before... tucking, make-up, HRT, BA, FFS, SRS, etc. take some and leave some.
How about that?

4) If you present male - being MtF or what ever, then this subject aught be NO issue. Why even get involved?

Look male, present male, finish. No issue, or?

Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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eli77

Um... I think femme guys are pretty cool and pretty brave. They're doing what I do (andro girl *wave*), only it's rather harder for them 'cause the borders of masculinity are much more aggressively policed.

And the more people who are out violating gender norms, the more everyone gets used to it, realizes the world hasn't actually ended, and relaxes a bit more about the whole deal. I'm pretty much always in favour of more relaxation of the rules of gendered behaviour and codes of dress. The less people care what other people do with their own bodies/presentation, the less trans folks are gonna get hassled.

And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.
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Trans Truth

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:25:08 PM
I still think that this type high exposure of non-MtF, males is in NO WAY helpful to our specific situation (MtF). The subject CLEARLY speaks of MALES, girly males, sporting a full beards, no less.
We may not sport full beards, but a significant proportion of society sees us as feminine males, unless we keep stealth about our condition. There's no way around it.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And the more people who are out violating gender norms, the more everyone gets used to it, realizes the world hasn't actually ended, and relaxes a bit more about the whole deal. I'm pretty much always in favour of more relaxation of the rules of gendered behaviour and codes of dress. The less people care what other people do with their own bodies/presentation, the less trans folks are gonna get hassled.
That's exactly my point. Society do not see trans people in a vacuum, they either allow gender variance, or they do not, and if they do not, we all suffer.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.
Again, that's why I thought that people here would generally be supportive.
http://trans-solutions.blogspot.com/ - Calling for solutions for all trans people.



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Stephe

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:51:02 PM
1) So, anyone climbing SOME odd mountain helps any MtF then? That is quite a stretch in deed.

2) I have seen "Lady with a Beard" in more the one circus display, I have not seen folks on display MtF... in deed we do TRY so real hard NOT to be on display... never mind in any circus.

You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself. But then again I don't try to say "your mountain" is odd or hurts me either.

And while you may try real hard NOT to be on display or appear to be a circus, that doesn't mean at every point you have succeeded either. I look back at pictures of some of the first times I went out into the world as my true self and it's looks quite comical today. I thought I looked pretty good :P

Unless of course you were always the absolutely perfectly passing, never a hint of beard shadow model TS you think you always were. I never owned that pair of rose colored glasses.

It's sad you feel it's fine and dandy to insult and assault people who aren't just like you, climbing YOUR mountain.. 
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Stephe

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.

Ditto and I feel people like these guys are what is going to make it so: hopefully one day all this concern about "You have to pass or people will kill you" mindset is over and done with.
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Rabbit

Quote from: Stephe on April 19, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself. But then again I don't try to say "your mountain" is odd or hurts me either.

^^^^

Hehe, bing!
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AbraCadabra

Well now... not that I have no understanding for dreams... I do.
But in a given society there are certain conditions/rules/expectations/etc.
You may "dream" as much as you wish, you will not by the power of some 0.01% of trans-folks "dreaming" change this by one iota. Even LGBT folks will be embarrassed, at least very many.

So, by being rational about it... is why I say "I does not help".

Having gone out with 2 cis-friends (a couple) to one slightly up-market restaurant last night, I just can imagine what their reaction would be, adding the rest of the clientele, anyone rocking up in female garb sporting a beard etc...

Now, it takes more or of a thick skin then anyone I happen to know, not to be rocked/shocked by such an encounter, and I may be excused to be equally taken aback - and more then just a little uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable...
This is the REALITY of what I'm thinking about.
And believe you me - IT DOES NOT HELP!

In fact the more people in this existing culture are confronted with such "exeptionalism" the more they are bound to become quite the opposite to accepting.

Go down-town one of your own US "trans-friendly" places - Atlanta, put on girl garb and sport a beard... then watch what happens!
I do wish you good luck with such a dream performance... it will be one freak-show, with whistling and hooting, and having stuff thrown at you, promise.

This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate.
So, I do prefer to keep a low profile -within reason- and do not blast my surroundings with any misguided trans-activism.
It pisses off most people, and by most I mean 99.9%

Food for thought?
Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Dahlia

I prefer to look at and listen to the natural feminine looking and acting girly guys whom I identify more with than  a white, former heterosexual male for whom the sky was the limit and now a MTF etc....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#


But then again....she's not out of the ordinairy here....

and talking about white, straight men's privilege...yes, she took it.

It takes an ego made out of fortified concrete to live as a 'man enough to be a woman'.

Such an ego is easy to develop and build when you grow up being, white, straight, etc and most certainly not different.
There's no chance of developing an ego like that when you grow notably different.

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Jeneva

Quote from: Dahlia on April 19, 2012, 06:42:52 AM
I prefer to look at and listen to the natural feminine looking and acting girly guys whom I identify more with than  a white, former heterosexual male for whom the sky was the limit and now a MTF etc....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#


But then again....she's not out of the ordinairy here....
Just because we defend her right to be herself as SHE chooses, it does not mean we are exactly like her.  We are all unique and all have our own paths.  Mine likely is closer to yours than hers, but I will defend all three paths.

If I say "I'm OK, You're Ok" it is not an attack on someone saying "You're not OK"'s self.  You can be who you want, you just SHOULDN'T tear others down.  It is your WORDS that are being attacked NOT your choices.

Unfortunately too often the ones saying "You're not OK" view that as an attack and play the martyr.
Blessed Be!

Jeneva Caroline Samples
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Jeneva

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
Go down-town one of your own US "trans-friendly" places - Atlanta, put on girl garb and sport a beard... then watch what happens!
I do wish you good luck with such a dream performance... it will be one freak-show, with whistling and hooting, and having stuff thrown at you, promise.
This site specifically includes cross-dressers as part of the TG umbrella.  It also says that we are not to try and exclude people from

Quote
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and Transvestites.

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Regardless of your personal opinion can you at least see that your statement violates rule 10 because of how TG is defined on this site?
Blessed Be!

Jeneva Caroline Samples
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Annah

Quote from: Stephe on April 19, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself

wow.......
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Jeneva

Quote from: Princess Allison on April 19, 2012, 12:57:28 AM
We may not sport full beards, but a significant proportion of society sees us as feminine males, unless we keep stealth about our condition. There's no way around it.
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
Well now... not that I have no understanding for dreams... I do.
But in a given society there are certain conditions/rules/expectations/etc.
You may "dream" as much as you wish, you will not by the power of some 0.01% of trans-folks "dreaming" change this by one iota. Even LGBT folks will be embarrassed, at least very many.

So, by being rational about it... is why I say "I does not help".
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate.
As long as we feel there is no way around it, or that the dream will never happen, IT WILL NOT.

Axélle you are likely right that it won't change in your lifetime, or probably even mine, but if we do not take the first step it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Change is painful and VERY scary.  But think about this.  If the early transwomen hadn't been written about where would we all be now?  We can't pay back those who came before, but perhaps we can pay a little forward for those who come after.

Quote from: Dr. Seuss
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Blessed Be!

Jeneva Caroline Samples
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AbraCadabra

Quote from: Jeneva on April 19, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
As long as we feel there is no way around it, or that the dream will never happen, IT WILL NOT.

Axélle you are likely right that it won't change in your lifetime, or probably even mine, but if we do not take the first step it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Change is painful and VERY scary.  But think about this.  If the early transwomen hadn't been written about where would we all be now?  We can't pay back those who came before, but perhaps we can pay a little forward for those who come after.

Why does this remind me of Wilson speaking at Versailles... after WWI :)

US thinking still has this "idealist / exceptionalist" mind-set, and we European souls seem ever so much more obstinately otherwise :)

In the more recent history it was General de Gaulle, that had is work cut out dealing with those US "idealist / exceptionalist" ideas and notions :)

So then, ... some of us make good activist/idealists, some don't. The way the world goes.

Axélle



Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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tekla

If you look at the places where it seems like TG people have a more open and accepting life because of the general society and culture you'll find that none of that was lead by some huge TG pioneer.  No bunch of super-fem post-ops, and enough studly FtMs to form a football team made it happen.  There were no leaders, lots and lots of group meetings but no plan.  In the end I think it was the going to and home from the meetings that mattered more than the meeting itself.  Because how it really happened was that first hundreds, thousands, (and now in the Bay Area tens of thousands) of highly visible people just went out and about, lived their life, were themselves and in doing they they demonstrated the infinite spectrum and day in and day out made it harder for people to discriminate based on some singular uncharacteristic.

That guy with a beard in the dress is actually getting you more positive vibes if you look at it right.  I mean hey, at least you're not that guy.  And to the degree that you come off as better, or prettier, or just slightly less offensive, then you are.  I mean your offended to the very core of your being by being compared to that person (and that is exactly how it sounds) in some sort of equal/sameness way.  But hey...

If your half as awesome as you think you are - and I'm sure that is being much too modest, you're really twice as awesome as that - aren't you winning that comparison to the guy in a beard in a dress (and I'll bet the dress is not even in fashion, much less in season) every single time?

Or, is it that what really bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of you is that all these people you disapprove of are out, being who they are, some are even being successful at it, and damn it, they look like they are happy.  Is it that they 'didn't do what they were supposed to' (whatever litany that is) and got the results that you wanted, and you 'did the right things' and have not obtained the same results?

Is that it?


After all, we are all just wandering.  Above someone said there were three paths - thus one-uppping Robert Frost - but there are not two, or even three paths, there are infinite paths.  If there are paths at all.  I kinda think we're all making it up as we go - everyone is at some stage, everyone moving from one point to another.  The andros have it right, we're all just wandering in the forest, at some strange edge, out past were we have stars to guide us.  Your way is just that, no more, no less.





This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate
I'm sorry, but the changes I've seen in my life, in terms of race, sexual equality and even in general acceptance of TG persons (and all sorts of other things, both good and bad) has been nothing short of constantly breath-taking.  Your looking at it all wrong.  Don't believe me?  (of course not, but that doubt is what makes you so cute)  Think about that guy in a dress in downtown Atlanta, and ask yourself 'What happens to him now, what happens 50 years ago?  What happens 20 years ago?  50-60 years ago, say 1960, I'd be shocked if he wasn't beat up and tied to the back of the car and taken for a scrape around town, or arrested, or put into a mental hospital, or all four.  Now he'll get laughed at by some I'd guess (though Atlanta bills itself as The City Too Busy To Hate), but that's better, that's a huge change, that's reality changing not just perceptions.





FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Dahlia

Quote from: Jeneva on April 19, 2012, 06:58:19 AM
Mine likely is closer to yours than hers

Not exactly. I'm not married to a woman and I'm not a father.
Which are ingredients for a -former- completely normal life where no one frowns upon you.

I grew up as a feminine child, adolescent, adult and no, there was no way to hide my femininety and yes, that made my (early) life a living hell.

It took me a veeeeeeery long time to shed my inferiority complexes about being different and being treated accordingly.

Which, thank god, doesn't happen to me anymore these days.

But I could never, ever in my early living hell life have imagined that very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children can turn out to be MTF.
Not even in my wildest dreams.

It amazes me to this very day that 85% of the MTF population is ex hetero/lesbian and (rather) masculine, in comparison of 3% of the female population being lesbian.

And kind of often making a fuss about natural feminine/girly men....could it be envy or just homophobic behaviour?
As I've seen in my MTF community?
P.s: I could never ever have sex with a woman and the very idea of being a biological father is psychological damaging to me.
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Dahlia

@MacKenzie:

thank you for your kind words!
But yes, I have a few very close MTF friends who were feminine before transition and are married to men.

We've 'selected' one another for that reason, always been natural feminine.
We share a lot.
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JenJen2011

Dahlia, you're the one fussing about there being MTF's who were/are "very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children". It doesn't matter if you couldn't believe it in your wildest dreams. The fact is, they do exist. And there's nothing wrong with that. You obvioiusly have a problem with those who don't share the same experience as you. But that doesn't invalidate their feelings.
"You have one life to live so live it right"
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