What do you think about today trend of girly males, is it good for us (mtf)?

[ByeBye]

Well it's about time. After decades of tomboys being accepted and causing a double standard, sallygirls may make it easier on us to trans.  Also these people may be undiscovered transsexuals so spread our cause and fix their bodies!

[Annah]

Bebe, assuming infeminate gay men as undiscovered trans is just as bad as assuming tomboys are lesbians or ftm.

[Dahlia]

Bebe, assuming infeminate gay men as undiscovered trans is just as bad as assuming tomboys are lesbians or ftm.

I agree, but 'infeminate'(effeminate) is something completely different from natural feminine which is something most MTF's aren't.

[Asfsd4214]

I think it's utterly irrelevant.

If you're mtf you're female, would ask if the tend of feminine males is good for women?

[Kelly J. P.]

 Well, asfsd... more feminine males means more males than can sympathize with/understand women better, which may lead to better workplace performance for females.

It helps in that regard.

However, I still believe it's harmful, if anything, to MtFs with the current level of ignorance society carries about itself. It doesn't help that most see us as men... and yes, it doesn't help that some of us act and look the part, too.

[Jeneva]

Ok, I am going to try a new approach.  Personally the put downs from people here don't bother me, because I am full time and I don't get in them in real life.  I also have noticed that it seems to be related to maturity and so I can usually just consider the source and move on.

However I started the whole tilting at windmills thing because we are not just talking to the people in this thread.  This thread and others may be watched by dozens of lurkers.  What do you think they are seeing?  Please remember how you felt when you first were trying to admit that you were trans and had to actually do something about it.  Remember those feelings of fear, anxiety, guilt, and shame?  Think about how many of us were considering that suicide would be easier than transition.  If you had support think about how you would have felt if you had NONE.  Now with those thoughts in mind let me propose a few "example" MTF lurkers.  Assume they are all broke and cannot afford any special surgeries.

• A 6'4" tall girl - what has she seen from us?  We've told her she will always be ugly because of her height. 
  
• A very masculine faced girl that feels she will never be pretty.  We've told her that beauty is the most important and transition is about that, not being who you are.
  
• A girl that feels attracted to one of the other girls in her social grouping.  We've told her that it is just a fetish and she isn't real.
  
• A girl that likes to play soccer.  We've told her that sports are a manly hobby and even though women play, it isn't "feminine".
  
• A girl that has health conditions that will prevent SRS/GCS/GRS.  We've told her she should transition too.
  
• A girl more comfortable in jeans and a tee.  We've told her that isn't feminine enough and she isn't real.
  

WE ARE KILLING OUR OWN SISTERS!  Even if they don't commit suicide, they are likely dead inside.  The world is harsh enough.  Often their own biological family has outcast them, and now they see their family here degrading them?

I want people to be more considerate not because I'm easily offended, but because how many of the lurkers seeing your post just walked away from the forums and maybe life?

Quit making rules of who is trans and who isn't.  Anyone who says they are trans is and that is it.  Who gave us the authority to make rules?  And if we just took it then what is to prevent others from making more.  For example until you have GCS you aren't trans, or until you have FFS you aren't trans, or until you are at least a large B cup you aren't trans.  If there are any rules then there will always be rules that you yourself will fail.  Think about that before you make these "rules". 

I've used this quote before, but I encourage you all to go and google it. 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If we allow people to become above the "law" then how do we keep them from creating unattainable rules?

I spent decades dead inside and when I finally decided that I had to do something I was so upset and close to suicide that if I had seen some of these recent threads right then I'm not sure I would still be here.

This is TOO IMPORTANT to keep doing, we OWE our sisters unconditional support!

[Stephe]

Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

[AbraCadabra]

Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

Hum, and that's why we tuck, and talk endlessly about facial hair removal, and make-up and how to act femme, and what not all.
I wish it was just THAT simple... as some would like us to have it. Really.
We would not even need a "support form" - what for then?

I don't see that these sort of circus-numbers are in any way helpful at all to make things any easier, not in our western Judaeo-Christian culture. Never mind some of those even less accepting.

To expect anything else is just have some politically correct trans-dreams...
As always YMMV or "without prejudice"

Axélle

[Dahlia]

Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

Andrej and Bill aren't MTF's and therefore born men in dresses and in make up (and not under wigs, judging from their natural looking hair)

But they are totally convincing natural feminine looking and acting AND they are themselves.

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

<The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.>

And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

[Jeneva]

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

Even after I asked you to consider what you are saying to lurkers you post this?  This is downright hostile.  Not to mention a huge broad brush that is likely mi->-bleeped-<-ting more people than "fit" those criteria.  I think if you read carefully you will see that many of us argue that those are not prerequisites, not that they aren't ok.  I love to cook.  I love to garden (especially flowers).  But I am not going to post and say that if you don't like to cook and don't like flowers then you aren't a woman.

And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

Please show me a single instance where I have been hostile toward a group of people so that I may go back and honestly apologize to them.

[Stephe]

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

Hmm so born females who don't act feminine are men in your opinion as well? And only MTF who take up knitting and reading vogue can consider themselves women..

Great job applying stereotypes.

[Dahlia]

Even after I asked you to consider what you are saying to lurkers you post this?

I strongly recommend lurkers to go to a 3d MTF meeting, group or whatever and see in real life for themselves.
Probably they immediately feel at home and at ease as soon as they see the average MTF there is masculine looking and acting too and they can talk freely about baseball, soccer, cars, computers, motorcycles, the army weapons, gunplay, women etcetc

Please show me a single instance where I have been hostile toward a group of people so that I may go back and honestly apologize to them.

I didn't mean you personally. Just talk to some former straight man/father of children/lesbian MTF and find out for yourself how homophobic she can be.

Imagine! As a (lesbian) MTF getting mixed up with an 'effinate' gay man! That's were such homophobia comes from. Sometimes even sheer hatred.

[Jeneva]

I strongly recommend lurkers to go to a 3d MTF meeting, group or whatever.

And would you have had the courage to go to a real life group meeting without having had some pseudo anonymous discussions first?  A board like this lets people explore their gender with so much less risk, fear, and need for courage that a real life group would require.

I didn't mean you personally. Just talk to some former straight man/father of children/lesbian MTF and find out for yourself how homophobic she can be.

Ummm, I do have children and am happily married to my female wife and do identify as a lesbian.  Even if all lesbian MTFs were hostile, you still should not meet hate with hate.  Turn the other cheek, and it harm none, make love not war, and all that jazz.

There is already enough hate in the world.  Lets share love instead.  Love is infinite.  You don't have kill or send away your siblings so you get more of your parents love.  Their love grows with each new child enough to love all completely.  At least if they truly love their children (and unfortunately many of us here have those parents).

[Dahlia]

<And would you have had the courage to go to a real life group meeting without having had some pseudo anonymous discussions first>

Yes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am.

Turned out I was completely wrong and that I belonged to a minor minority within a minority.

[Miki]

Broad brushes are broad.

What do celebrities who choose to present a certain way to reinforce their celebrity have to do with transgender perceptions?

They are not transgender, and making a tenuous connection by proposing that we're somehow better off due to their efforts seems odd to me.

You're not seeing people exactly like them get discriminated against and threatened with violence on a daily basis in front of cameras.  They appear pseudo-safe as a result of their celebrity.   What flies under the radar in Los Angeles, CA does not fly in Jackson, MS.

The "feminine males foster a better understanding of women" theory is brutally flawed, as there is no way it applies universally.  I am not a feminine male, I am transgender, and require no social oddity, regardless of how celebrated in the moment, to hide behind or to speak for me.

It's difficult enough trying to educate and differentiate being transgender from a slew of other things and labels.  Muddying the waters by attempting to so closely identify ( for some non-existent benefit) with things we are not just contributes to sustaining ignorance and fear in my opinion.

-Miki

[Shana A]

reminder

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

and

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

[Beverley]

Yes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am.

Dahlia - they are what they want to be, just like you are. What is wrong with that?

[Jeneva]

To expect anything else is just have some politically correct trans-dreams...

And why is it not a good dream?  To have a world where all are treated fairly and equally and are accepted for who they are?

"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
Eleanor Roosevelt

"So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable."

"If you can dream, it you can do it. Always remember that this whole thing was started with a dream and a mouse."
Walt Disney

"You see things; and you say, Why ? But I dream things that never were; and I say, Why not ?"
George Bernard Shaw

"Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men."

"Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world."

Harriet Tubman

[dalebert]

reminder

Thank you for that, Zythyra. This is the most active forum I've ever partaken of regularly and I'm sure that's in no small part due to the efforts of folks like you.

[Trans Truth]

It has a neutral effect on the acceptance of MTFs as females, but it may appear to have a good effect on the tolerance of MTFs in general, because, let's face it, most of society sees MTFs as feminine males. The only way for an mtf to be accepted as female rather than feminine male amongst mainstream society is to be stealth for now.

With better tolerance in general, it may be finally possible to get most of society to recognise us as females even when we are out and open later on.

But let's think about this. Us MTFs can't be solely focused on our interest because, after all, we only constitute less than 0.1% of the population. The trend of girly males also benefits the other 99.9%+ of the population, because it ends the stupid rule that 'males have to be masculine', something that we should really feel for seeing that we grew up as 'feminine boys' (from society's perspective) and had the same issues ourselves. I myself would be overjoyed, more than at any LGBT legal rights progress, if one day children will no longer grow up with 'boys don't cry' and other silly stuff like that.