What do you think about today trend of girly males, is it good for us (mtf)?

[Jeneva]

Because how it really happened was that first hundreds, thousands, (and now in the Bay Area tens of thousands) of highly visible people just went out and about, lived their life, were themselves and in doing they they demonstrated the infinite spectrum and day in and day out made it harder for people to discriminate based on some singular uncharacteristic.

Exactly we are all different so no one person can stand for us all, but if we all are visible then it helps.

After all, we are all just wandering.  Above someone said there were three paths - thus one-uppping Robert Frost - but there are not two, or even three paths, there are infinite paths.  If there are paths at all.  I kinda think we're all making it up as we go - everyone is at some stage, everyone moving from one point to another.  The andros have it right, we're all just wandering in the forest, at some strange edge, out past were we have stars to guide us.  Your way is just that, no more, no less.

I only said three paths because I was speaking of her, me, and the hypothetical person on the street.  As you said we are all different and have different paths.

This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate
I'm sorry, but the changes I've seen in my life, in terms of race, sexual equality and even in general acceptance of TG persons (and all sorts of other things, both good and bad) has been nothing short of constantly breath-taking.  Your looking at it all wrong.  Don't believe me?  (of course not, but that doubt is what makes you so cute)  Think about that guy in a dress in downtown Atlanta, and ask yourself 'What happens to him now, what happens 50 years ago?  What happens 20 years ago?  50-60 years ago, say 1960, I'd be shocked if he wasn't beat up and tied to the back of the car and taken for a scrape around town, or arrested, or put into a mental hospital, or all four.  Now he'll get laughed at by some I'd guess (though Atlanta bills itself as The City Too Busy To Hate), but that's better, that's a huge change, that's reality changing not just perceptions.

That is exactly what I'm trying to say.  IT DOES GET BETTER!

[Renee D]

Reading some of these posts kind of makes me wonder if some formerly feminine boys transitioned to female just to make their lives easier, to fit in better? 

Heck, we could probably come up all sorts of stuff that means little to nothing to the rest of society if we put our minds to it. Either way, deciding who is valid, who's not, who has a right to be a woman. who is just fulfilling a fantasy, etc. is doing nothing to help us or our acceptance as a group.  I suppose though, to some, it feels good to try to become the oppressor, kind of like if you can't beat them, join them.  Who knows, I'm just trying to live my life in a little community where I have at least earned some respect, kindness and have even changed a few minds without having to put anyone else down or shouting at the world that I am this or that. I just am and most people accept me as I am. I don't share much about how I grew up because it doesn't matter for ->-bleeped-<- really. Its how you are, how you treat people and integrity that matters most.

And its tough typing on a laptop when your dog keeps putting his paw on the touchpad and moving the cursor around on you, lol.

[Beverley]

I just am and most people accept me as I am. I don't share much about how I grew up because it doesn't matter for ->-bleeped-<- really. Its how you are, how you treat people and integrity that matters most.

If the +1 button was working I would be pressing it. Well said Jaime

[Jeneva]

Not exactly. I'm not married to a woman and I'm not a father.
Which are ingredients for a -former- completely normal life where no one frowns upon you.

I grew up as a feminine child, adolescent, adult and no, there was no way to hide my femininety and yes, that made my (early) life a living hell.

It took me a veeeeeeery long time to shed my inferiority complexes about being different and being treated accordingly.

Which, thank god, doesn't happen to me anymore these days.

But I could never, ever in my early living hell life have imagined that very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children can turn out to be MTF.
Not even in my wildest dreams.

It amazes me to this very day that 85% of the MTF population is ex hetero/lesbian and (rather) masculine, in comparison of 3% of the female population being lesbian.

And kind of often making a fuss about natural feminine/girly men....could it be envy or just homophobic behaviour?
As I've seen in my MTF community?
P.s: I could never ever have sex with a woman and the very idea of being a biological father is psychological damaging to me.

Assume much do you?  Just because I am a lesbian doesn't mean I wasn't ridiculed as a child.  Why do you assume I was ultra-masculine?  And it isn't just me, look above at Sarah's post.  She isn't straight (based on past comments and I'm sorry if I'm wrong), but she also was feminine as a child.

I came out to my (grand) parents before Kindergarten.  I quickly learned the mentally and physically painful lesson to never speak of it to them again.  Although I knew better than to talk about my "pee-digger" I spent hours using it to try to dig out the hole so that it could fall off.  At least until I was painfully taught to not do that either.  I suppose I imagined all the people that thought I was a "->-bleeped-<-" and a handful of boys that tried to court me.  I just imagined what happened when my bio father thought a boy was going to kiss me.  I only imagined being chased with the other girls through farm fields by boys with snakes because I was terrified of them.  I only imagined my bio-father destroying one of my science experiments because I used butterflies and that was too "girly".  The only reason I was not beaten at grade/middle school was because my aunt worked there.  I only imagined all the ridicule at Church camps because I wasn't hairy there until very late and wasn't a big stud like they claimed.  I only imagined the mockery at Church when we were prepping for a Christmas cantata and I was able to sing the girls part because my voice never really broke severely.  And then in high school I was one of the academics and was every teacher's pet and I was too visible to hurt.  It of course didn't stop them all from assuming I was gay.  I had a girl once tell me that she loved anal sex and it was ok if I did too, that I could trust her and come out as gay.  No it didn't really traumatize me when I had to take swimming and couldn't wear something on my chest and had to change in front of all the boys.  No I didn't hurry out of there because I was threatened daily that I might "slip" and bust open my head because I was looking at them (when I never was).

Aside from 1 person for a few months in high school I didn't date at all until grad school.  And that was really a total misunderstand on her part of something I said and I felt I was supposed to honor it even though she misunderstood.  I only dated in grad school because my family set me up and told me I had to do it to dispel the gay rumors.  Luckily we actually clicked and will be celebrating our 15th anniversary this June 1st.  Ironically my friends told me they were surprised to see me marry a woman and her friends told her they were surprised to see her marry a man.  On our wedding night I couldn't use that part and instead used the much more comfortable hands and mouth.  We actually bought how to books because we didn't think we were doing it right because it never felt right for me.  When she decided she was ready for children I did my part because it was what I was supposed to do.  I do love them very much and don't regret that at all, but that doesn't mean I was a sex fiend.  When I was still partly under my family's control we had our son enrolled in TeeBall.  One of the coaches had gone to high school with me and was SHOCKED to see I was married and had a child.  BTW for the ball practice at home, it was Shannon that did it for him because I throw like a girl to quote my aunt.

We are all different and no one should be judging us.

[Sarah Louise]

I'm sorry, its obvious that you all hate each other and will never come to a peaceful understanding of anyone elses opinion other than your own (which ever side your on).

This thread is a fruitless endevor and will lead to nothing more than more name calling and bitchiness.

It is Locked.

[Constance]

The civil discussion ended some time ago and many posts in this thread violate this basic rule.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

I bolded part of the above rule for emphasis.

To be sure, state what you believe. Just do it in a polite and mature manner. Condescension is not necessary or welcome.