What is it like to de-transition?

[Beth Andrea]

Are we calling de-transition someone will in the one years lived experience phase? My understanding of teh SOC suggest one year - living as the opposite gender, I am also mistakenly (?) under the impression that during that year one can have hormones, because to a large degree, without cross gender hormone, few would pass.

For the purpose of this thread, "transitioning" is any changes or efforts made to change one's gender...from the minimum (say, wearing nail polish or wearing fem earrings) all the way to SRS and/or FFS.

Originally posted by Axélle:

Same here, intersex is just that - intersex, and so the brain will be intersex. Not some of this, some of that and some of the other.

I disagree. If I understand this correctly, someone who is physically intersex will also have a mind that is intersex.

This conflicts with the basic premise of transsexuals--that we were born with male bodies, yet have a female mind (and vice-versa for FTM's). I believe that just as one can have a "manly-man" body or a "girlie-man" body, yet the minds within either of those bodies may very well be über-male (popular American slang "über" means "extremely so"), or they may be very fem...but all is not the extremes, most people have some degree of both masculine and feminine traits, both in body and mind.

There is quite a range of possibilities, not only from genetic potentials, but also from social upbringing.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Now THAT sounds REAL to me... and standing to one's choices - that is not analogue, it clearly is statement of intend. Period.
Like I'm this... and so be it! Very refreshing when comparing it with some wishy-washy stuff... very refreshing! Taking a STAND, and making a choice - that... has integrity.
In my view at any rate.

THAT --- does not MATTER, and I'm not so sure if they understand, so WHAT?! It is your choice. Period.
When e.g. I decide to learn French there be enough folks that do not even understand that --- and never mind your choices, yes?
BUT... they are your choices and so they show integrity, to say it again. There is POWER in integrity. Absolutely.

Another choice, your choice, and who doesn't like it can take a hike. Quite simple. It's your life not the person's life judging you. Never to forget this simple fact.
If they don't dig your choices - fine --- you have to live of course with the consequences. The problem starts when we choose what we need, AND INSIST that others have to go along with it.
Than loosing integrity by trying to dance on a penny, trying to please one's own needs as much as others'.
THAT... is a no-go and it requires integrity, emotional growth, and the ability to LET GO!

So? LEARN TO LET GO!

A eunuch is a eunch. Periode. No analogue TS/TG/T-anything for all I see.
There IS no need to complicate things beyond the necessary AT ALL.

Ockham's razors: "... assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity."
i.e. an eunuch is just that - an eunuch. The rest is unprofitabe and unnecessary.
Amen

Same here, intersex is just that - intersex, and so the brain will be intersex. Not some of this, some of that and some of the other.
Bird-lovers do not have portions of analogue bird-brains either, or?
No need to go into analogue stuff.
Again... Ockham's razor applies as you asked me.

They as you say are GENDER QUEER, and better (my view) don't go and create a load of confusing, confounding EXTRAS about it all.
Be gender queer and get on with it. Quite simple then, or?

Babe, your are who you are, and who you choose to be. Stick by it and move on, and try real hard learn to LET GO.

There is NO magical mathematical formula out there to satify your present need to make 'sense' of it all.
It just IS - and THAT... will have to suffice, (since you asked me)

Hug,
Axélle

My brain is hurting! Analog? Digital?

[DawnL]

I don't know, and evidently no one else here does either.  All this obsession with gender...no one on the planet cares more about gender than we do.  This thread is mostly stories, anecdotes, and posturing.  We all have opinions about why somebody might do this: "Oh they weren't really women, or they can't pass, or they're confused, or they're crazy..."  One person referred to an individual who transitioned as HE.  WTF!  That was a judgement, one that wasn't called out.  These things all sound like judgements from people who should be more tolerant than anybody on the planet regarding gender confusion.  This isn't analog, digital or--in most cases--a choice.  I transitioned 7 years ago and after I did so, I mostly ignored the trans community because I found a lot of the same judgements, biases, and blatant disregard for personal variance that I found in the straight community. 

There is no set TRANS person.  Every situation is unique, every transition different.  Every post that declares "I wouldn't go back!" is a judgement against those who might.  Why the reporter transitioned, de-transitioned, and then committed suicide will NEVER be known.  He/she took it to the grave with them.

I won't de-transition but it's not a badge.  It's just a fact of life.  I couldn't live that way again.  But I've thought about it and it's not because I'm gender-confused, or I can't pass (I had FFS with Z--I'll never pass as male again), or I'm crazy.  I'm successful and have kept most everything in my life that I value.  But I also live a lie everyday to keep everyone about me comfortable.  I have no past before 2004.  My spouse is single on Facebook--I'm her sister.  My kids...I'm their aunt.  My grandkids think I'm their aunt as well.  Yeah, small price to pay but I transitioned to stop living a lie, right?

Just living a different one actually... 

[AbraCadabra]

My brain is hurting! Analog? Digital?

Brain? Hurting? Definitely analogue! 

Axélle
PS: Oh... and now living a different lie? Just another choice - what else

[Randi]

An interesting and well know case is that of Charles/Judy/Josef Kirchner.  A.K.A. the Mangina Man

Also Michael Berke  http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-25-man-woman_N.htm

MSNBC has a show that is available online: Born in the Wrong Body: A change of Heart.

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html
http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0

I've read a number of threads + posts since I've been here about MTF's who de-transition.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

I like what Dawn said, we are all unique. What pisses me off though is how the media, especially tabloids, like to trumpet these odd cases.

[Beth Andrea]

An interesting and well know case is that of Charles/Judy/Josef Kirchner.  A.K.A. the Mangina Man

MSNBC has a show that is available online: Born in the Wrong Body: A change of Heart.

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html
http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0

Thank you!

Wow, that is certainly an interesting read. I noticed that s/he was born intersexed, so (to me) it's understandable that s/he might want (or need) to be male for a period of time, then female for a period of time, then male again...etc. One's mind is a very dynamic environment, and changes much faster (and with relatively few repercussions) than the "outside" world.

Best wishes to Josef et al.

I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

I like what Dawn said, we are all unique. What pisses me off though is how the media, especially tabloids, like to trumpet these odd cases.

Odd cases sell papers...or something like that.  One just has to be careful to not "paint with a broad brush" in spite of articles that suggest doing just that.

[Danigrl]

I cant imagine... I struggle hard enough with whether to start transition, I cant imagine the heartache of going back once I had. Although as stated earlier, we are not them nor are we in their minds so we dont know what they are going through. 

[MariaMx]

I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

For the longest time I fully expected this to happen but so far it hasn't. Now I'm starting to thinking it never will.

However, the last month or so before srs I would wake up in the middle of the night thinking "OMG! Am I really doing this? Is this for real?". There was no doubt though, just a sense of the gravity of what I was doing. All my life transition, hrt and srs sort of had this shroud myth and mystery around, and then doing it myself I would have these moments of realizing it was now real and I was in the midst of actually doing it, for real!!! On the day of srs I didn't think so much about it. I got on the gurney and enjoyed the adrenalin rush as I soaked it all in.

To be honest I actually like these moments of clarity and realization. It all seems so normal now I have to really think hard about it to remember that life wasn't always like this, but every so often I will wake up at night and half asleep I feel between my legs and think "Yes! This is my life now and this is how it is supposed to be" 

[Dahlia]

There is no set TRANS person.  Every situation is unique,

I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

By comparison:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

[Alainaluvsu]

I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

To compare:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

[Dahlia]

It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.

The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.

Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

By comparison:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

Really? If you are going to quote statistics in such a presumptuous manner, it behooves you to supply a citation. I would agree that many MTFs who grew up in earlier eras did seek out to OVERCOMPENSATE and become hyper-masculine but 85%??? That is sheer nonsense. Furthermore, to gather ACCURATE statistics on MtFs is difficult at best and, perhaps, nearly impossible.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.

The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.

Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

Dahlia, you cannot extrapolate your observations into empirical data. Your observations are pretty much irrelevant except for forming your own personal gestalts which you are quite welcome to do.

I did find one study on Dutch transsexuals.

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2002-0808-103443/c5.pdf

Interesting, the study wanted to look at post-SRS regret and found that non-homosexual MtFs seemed to have LOWER rates of being happy with their decision.

"Finally, applicants with a nonhomosexual orientation, combined with the presence of psychopathology and dissatisfaction with secondary sex characteristics at assessment, were more likely to function poorer postoperatively, andexpress more dissatisfaction about the results or consequences of sex reassignment in
their lives. Conclusions: Some of the potential risk factors for poor outcomes of sex
reassignment from the literature or from retrospective studies indeed appeared to be
important for predicting the course and outcomes of treatment. Psychological functioning,
inconsistencies in reported gender dysphoria, physical appearance, and a nonhomosexual
preference deserve particular attention when eligibility for treatment is assessed.
However, the data, though unprecedented and valuable because of their prospective
nature, do not allow us to draw conclusions about absolute contraindications."

Like I said, most studies are inconclusive much less personal observations.

[DawnL]

No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.
The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.
Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

Sorry, but your anecdotal observations won't stand up to even the slightest scientific scrutiny.  None of these cohorts necessarily represents an accurate cross-section of the majority MTF transsexuals.  The majority of MTFs I meet are feminine/lesbian.  That doesn't represent any meaningful statistic either.  I am feminine/straight and have dated men exclusively post-op.  I know a fair number of post-ops who are similar.  Is it possible that there is a trans sexual-orientation spectrum that has yet to be fleshed out?  I think so.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I live in an area that is known to some as a transsexual mecca,  (San Francisco Bay Area and for a time the TL) yet I know very few MtFs...I probably have met more FtMs actually but of the few I do know, I do not have any idea what there sexual orientation is. What am I missing out on?

[Naturally Blonde]

I'm sorry to hear, naturally blond, that you don't feel you look feminine enough to look like a "real" woman. Have you seen the incredible variety of shapes and sizes of women these days.  It is strange, or rather i'm surprised, i have seen on a number of posts that trans -women are having trouble fitting in with groups of cis women, i.e. they are being excluded. I think that is terrible. one of the things girls usually have going for them is acceptance of others.

I think you've just debunked your own arguement by saying trans women are having trouble fitting in with groups of cis women, i.e. they are being excluded. I would think they are excluded because they are not perceived as female physically? this could push some to de- transition if it's not working.

[henrytwob]

Ok. I no longer have the book, but in the book, "she's not there" the statistic she gives for sexual orientation after SRS is 30% remain attracted to the gander they were attracted to pre-op, 30% change preferences and about 30% are generally 'asexual'  or "not classifiable". The book is an autobiography however, it was heavy with citations and believe that the above number come from an actual study.

[Dahlia]

It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year  while visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belong to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

[Nicolette]

I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belonged to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex. I'm presuming too that the social conditioning is also culturally biased. Yes, "the world is uncomfortable" with anyone that strays out of the status quo, hence the masculine social conditioning you see in many M2Fs.