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What is it like to de-transition?

Started by Beth Andrea, August 05, 2012, 02:05:55 PM

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Ms. OBrien CVT

This thread seems to be drifting for the OP's question, please stay on track.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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wendy

Quote from: Axélle on August 14, 2012, 02:40:46 PM
Josephine (Napoleon's sweetie-pie AND wife) was NOT a royal ever. Will that help to know?
I can relate to her, it's why I mentioned her.
She ALSO could not bear children, was quite sexy, (I'm told I am), and liked to DRESS – OH YES!, I do too, she  was stylish, I like stylish... and older (well, then HIM)

I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:

Axélle

Axelle Josephine is dead and you are not.  I actually have extremely low ability to relate to anyone but myself.  I take your words, process them against my experiences and then interpret them incorrectly.  Where young rude girls that said "cute trans girl" complementing me or making fun of me?  I interpreted them as complementing me but they were rude.

I do not even understand your question? "I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:"

So?  You feel like her?  That's O.K.  Are you Josephine?  If you are then you are reincarnated or delusional.

Do I feel like a girl?  Yes.  Am I a girl?  How would I know?  I was born a genetic male!

Do I think I can survive in society as a girl?  No.  Basically I interact with humans at an intellectual level.

Many in society are finding it uncomfortable to be around me including many in community.

I am of opinion that each person experiences their own reality and they decide how to best navigate.

They will make incorrect choices whether they make no decision or make a decision.  That is life.

My gut tells me purpose of this thread is to listen to people that are TS and de-transitioned. 

However if someone is TS and they de-transitioniton I am not sure people would believe they were TS.

I only claim I have gender issues and may not be TS  and I am trying to anchor sailboat.

Anchoring sailboat feels like de-transition.

I personally know of no TS that de-transitioned but I know of many that anchored along way.

I personally know of six people that identify as "in-between" CD and TS.

My own sister is a lesbian and told me she does not feel like a girl but is not a man and is androgynous.

That is my only sibling.

I do not feel like Josephine.  I feel like me and me is anchoring or I will crash.  I feel unhappy.


 
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rachl

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 02:40:24 PM
I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

I don't have an answer to that; I said that I think it's a very difficult question. But what we should always do is take the self-reports of trans* persons seriously (called first-person authority), instead of theorizing them away, as you did.

And no, I think that "recovery community" is full of ->-bleeped-<-. You're the one demanding studies as evidence; what evidence do they have?
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wendy

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 02:40:24 PM
I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

Cal some people that smoke or drink have an affinity to be addicts.  If they never smoke or drink then they are not addicted and therefore are not addicts.  However if they take one drink or smoke one cigarette they are addicted.

Can people be something that they do not realize?  That is rhetorical and answer is of course!

I will raise question in one of my group therapy sessions if someone that is TS can de-transition.

My guess is all combinations exist in nature and when you insist that your reality is only reality for others you are mathematically incorrect.  You only need one example to disprove "all".

I feel that there are TS folks that have died with their secret.  Certainly TG folks have died with their secret.

Is there a TS person on forum that de-transitioned or is there a TG person that de-transitioned because they are an androgyne? Is that question of thread?
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lilacwoman

I've read quite a few account of detransitioners but they generally lacked the feeling of being wrong since childhood and detransitioned because they missed the male life.

I think with FtMs there is a different set of dynamics at work as  a great many FtMs have alway spent many years as lesbians and after transition they stay in the lesbian world.

Uk and Eurpopean gender clincis claim there is a 90% drop out/detransition rate but without backup of follow up its hard to know how many re-transition though some make the front page.
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Julie Wilson

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 08:40:12 AM
This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.


I think Berkley was seeing the deeper truth.

When I was young my mother commented that I talked and acted like, "a little queer".  She told me not to talk or act like that because people would think I was "a little ->-bleeped-<-got".  Her words, not mine.  She put the fear in my mind that I had to conform to expectations in order to be accepted so at the tender age of maybe seven, eight or nine...  I started trying to talk and act in ways what would appeal to my mother and my father.  Dad was always trying to get me to hold my shoulders up so I would look more masculine.  I was put back a year (second grade) and the reason was that I needed to catch up with the other boys physically...

Also the fear of Hell fire was put into me, that if I didn't conform to these expectations that I would spend eternity in Hell, suffering eternal torture and all this was done by the people who were supposed to love me more than anyone else.  My protectors and providers, my parents.  And I the first born didn't have the experiences of an older sibling to refer to so it all struck me as a absolutely necessary reality, life or death.  And why would my parents lie to me or steer me wrong, that thought was unfathomable.

What happened after a few years was that I came to believe that I was a heterosexual male.  I was never happy, I was miserable, reckless and suicidal, never a moment of happiness.  I felt like a shadow, an observer.  I felt like I didn't have a body, I was just two eyes looking out at the world seeing other people having lives.

But I believed I was a heterosexual male.  I had become afraid of gay men.  I was so afraid of becoming one of them that I couldn't even entertain the idea that I could ever be one of them, instead I experienced fear which turned to anger and hatred.  I never acted on my feelings but my head was a very unhappy place.

I didn't believe that transition was possible for me.  I was too old, too masculine.  My hands were too big.  No one would ever accept me.  my family would disown me.  Eventually I began to explore myself.  Who was I really?  All this praying and never an answer to my prayers.  Obviously god despised me.  Time for me to despise god.  I set about not believing in god.  It gave me liberty to explore my needs.  But I honestly believed that transition would be impossible and for a time I thought maybe I could be a "->-bleeped-<-" (I had recently learned about them on the Internet having bought my first computer).  Then eventually I began going to gender support meetings and I identified (reluctantly) as a crossdresser because I believed I was limited to that, being I would never succeed at transition.

But I was wrong and I wasted a lot of years that could have been happy and productive.  Life managed to become so uncomfortable and meaningless, joyless that I was forced to transition.  The only alternative was to die.  Was I ever really a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-?  Depends on how you look at it.  Still does.  When people are told a story that I am a woman who used to be a man they believe that story, they believe that I am a man who wants to be a woman.  It doesn't matter that I have been living as a female since 2005.  All of that becomes invisible to them.  They believe that the kit car is really a VW bug and not a Ferrari because they will never understand that being a woman is a verb.  A woman is not an object or a thing.  A woman is a being.  Being a woman is all about the being.  It doesn't matter if you were a possum or a rock lobster in your previous incarnation.  Except it does matter to non-trans people and some trans people and it always will.  Because non-trans people don't believe in magic because like Axelle likes to say, "People can't understand what they have never experienced."

If you need to transition to have a life quit stalling, get it over with and get on with the being.  And own your womanhood or manhood.  Don't spend your life seeking acceptance because no one is worthy enough to give it to you.  You have to cultivate acceptance within yourself.  You CANNOT get it from someone else, not REAL acceptance.  You will never even know what acceptance really is until you learn to accept yourself so how could someone possibly give it to you, you wouldn't even recognize it if you never experienced it before (within yourself).

Transition isn't a secret, it isn't a lie.  It's about owning yourself.  When you seek acceptance other people own you.  When you live your life with a secret it's because you are allowing yourself to be owned by the consciences of everyone else except yourself.  When you accept yourself you realize that the secret is that you have always been male or female.  Assuming you are a transsexual in my own understanding of the definition.  But a familiar environment will never allow you to achieve success because it will depend upon the ability of others to accept you and it will prevent you from ever experiencing real acceptance.  It will become a drug and you will become the addict, always needing a new fix.  Always disappointed with the high and at the end of the day you will be destitute, trying to figure out how to get your next fix.  Thinking to yourself that maybe that next fix will be the one that finally makes everything right.

Acceptance is a lie.  But you can learn to accept yourself through being.  Being is an action.  Take action.  Until you actually accept yourself "acceptance" will always be a substitute, a drug, a fix.  You won't know acceptance but someone will sell you something they call "acceptance" and you will buy it, because you won't know any better.  How could you?  What they are really selling you is the most destructive and addictive drug known to man, one that turns people into empty shells, zombies... addicts.  Don't fall for it. 

Go through that gate, the one that others are too afraid to enter and you will find yourself.  Learn to base your life on truth, on that foundation within yourself that you have always been male or female.  Right now it may be hidden in the sand but once you begin building upon it you will always know where it is and that it is down there beneath everything.  Let it be your support.  Let it be the basis of everything you create in life.  No one else will ever see your foundation because it is buried in the earth.  Don't expect them to see it or believe in it.  Like some dude said eons ago, "They will know you not by your words but by your actions."  The truth is that words, even the most eloquent words will undo everything you work for and turn your life into a "story", a fable.  If you want to be 'it' (if you want a life) you will only ever experience any success by being 'it', the life you seek.  Narratives that tell a different story than that of being what you really are will always betray you.  Unless you are comfortable with people knowing that you are someone who eternally wants to be.  And wanting to be is so nostalgic and you can romance it to the grave.  But being will actually allow you to have a life.  Assuming that a life is what you need, one where you can be who you really are in a binary existence.  Because in the shared-reality that we call the human experience a woman can be masculine and a man can be feminine but a man can never become a woman.  Unless you realize (by being) and experience that you have always been this thing that you seek to become, you will NEVER attain it.  Realize that it is already within you and learn to make it real.  You can't do that with words or statements or coming out letters or documentaries or YouTube channels.
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UCBerkeleyPostop

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 03:58:35 PM


And no, I think that "recovery community" is full of ->-bleeped-<-.

Tell that to the millions of people who have found sobriety through Alcoholics Anonymous and the thousands who gotten clean on programs such as the one that helped me: Kaiser-Permanente's Chemical Dependency Recovery Program. And to David Pating, MD, PhD, (Program Director for Kaiser CDRP San Francisco)  or to Bill Wison and Dr. Bob Smith. 

Wow, Noey...another  amazing "dissertation."
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Trans Truth

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 07:35:41 AM


An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual.

That is technically correct, I believe.
http://trans-solutions.blogspot.com/ - Calling for solutions for all trans people.



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Trans Truth

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 14, 2012, 04:23:43 PM
Uk and Eurpopean gender clincis claim there is a 90% drop out/detransition rate but without backup of follow up its hard to know how many re-transition though some make the front page.

I seriously doubt that myself. From my 12 years of experiences following cases of trans people on the internet, the detransition rate is below 5%.
http://trans-solutions.blogspot.com/ - Calling for solutions for all trans people.



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lilacwoman

dropping out is not the same as detransitioning and the figure of 90% is quoted by the gender clinics themselves.
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lilacwoman

the essence of transsexualism before it got all muddied up by the transgenderqueer nonsense was that a transsexual is born and labelled as one sex and gender when inside they feel the other and thanks to the nurturing and desire to fit in a TS will quite easily appear to be the sex and gender forced upon it.

If it were possible to turn the clock back ten or twenty years we would find that a large number of the happy fully transitioned post-ops of today were perfectly camouflaged as normal hetero males. 

But if it were possible to poke into their brains and see what they are thinking we would no doubt find that while laying bricks, repairing trucks or firing artillary their mind was constantly wondering how to stop doing it and become just another woman with a family and female pursuits.

This might be why transitioners get such anger and hostility from friends and colleagues?  Its almost as though they have been betrayed or tainted by having known us for some time.
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Dahlia

The ones I personally know  who detransitioned post op  don't make passable 'men' anymore.
One doesn't call zhirself male, not female, not MTF but TG. Post op regret.

The other one went back to living as a male, calling himself a man (again). Post op very deep regret.

Both didn't have FFS, only HRT and SRS.

Even  having their breastimplants removed and being on testosterone still makes them very strange to look at.

Causing new and different social, emotional en mental problems.

I'm for decades on HRT and (remain) non op and I'm quite pleased with my life in general...work too.....
And both are projecting their misery onto me, thinking it would be 'easy' for me to revert to living as a male because I'm non op anyway.

I would make an even stranger looking 'man' than they are...plus I'm not planning to go back anyway.

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Julie Wilson

One thing I remember about my life prior to transition was that I didn't really think about the details of my life.  I was able to push things down enough that I was just sorta depressed and angry.  I didn't contemplate the details of my life and focused on being "numb".  They say guys tend to experience two emotions, angry and horny.  I found that to be true in my own experience.

I was also purposefully stupid (and honestly I am still recovering).  I ignored and shut out what I knew and made myself believe a bunch of lies.  I didn't question things.  All I knew how to do was respect "authority" and fear.  I was a zombie, the walking dead.  I had no future and honestly I had no past either.  I was so stupid and repressed that it never occurred to me what I needed to do until I had read about others doing it.  And even then I never imagined that it would ever be possible for me.

Transition seemed like willful insanity to me.  It seemed cost-prohibitive and self-destructive.  My baby steps spanned four years.  Then SRS and I still didn't go full-time or "come out" to anyone until 12 months later.

I like being able to talk to people like myself.  People who have gone through what I have gone through.  People who are like-minded and share the same dreams and goals.  But I also respect the gender-benders, gender-queer, etc.  I like people who challenge me because otherwise I settle into judgment and narrow-mindedness.  A friend recently visited and helped me to see that I have been isolating myself with my ideas.  Limiting my existence.  That makes me feel like less of a person than I want to be.  I admire my friend and I worry for her.  But I think my fears are probably unfounded.  She has honed her perceptions and she knows the world better than I do.  I want to be more like her, but I will always be me.  I believe that when we stop growing, we begin dying.

We all want to be loved.  I want people to love a female when they love me because anything else just feels wrong but sometimes plain old love is enough.  You get what you need when you need it enough, whatever that may be.  My parents love me even if they don't really believe in me.  Right now that is all I have and it's a blessing and a curse.  Better than a curse and a curse I guess.
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Julie Wilson

Quote from: wendy on August 14, 2012, 03:39:03 PM
Axelle Josephine is dead and you are not.  I actually have extremely low ability to relate to anyone but myself.  I take your words, process them against my experiences and then interpret them incorrectly.  Where young rude girls that said "cute trans girl" complementing me or making fun of me?  I interpreted them as complementing me but they were rude.

I do not even understand your question? "I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:"

So?  You feel like her?  That's O.K.  Are you Josephine?  If you are then you are reincarnated or delusional.

Do I feel like a girl?  Yes.  Am I a girl?  How would I know?  I was born a genetic male!

Do I think I can survive in society as a girl?  No.  Basically I interact with humans at an intellectual level.

Many in society are finding it uncomfortable to be around me including many in community.

I am of opinion that each person experiences their own reality and they decide how to best navigate.

They will make incorrect choices whether they make no decision or make a decision.  That is life.

My gut tells me purpose of this thread is to listen to people that are TS and de-transitioned. 

However if someone is TS and they de-transitioniton I am not sure people would believe they were TS.

I only claim I have gender issues and may not be TS  and I am trying to anchor sailboat.

Anchoring sailboat feels like de-transition.

I personally know of no TS that de-transitioned but I know of many that anchored along way.

I personally know of six people that identify as "in-between" CD and TS.

My own sister is a lesbian and told me she does not feel like a girl but is not a man and is androgynous.

That is my only sibling.

I do not feel like Josephine.  I feel like me and me is anchoring or I will crash.  I feel unhappy.





Life gives us some things and eventually takes all of those things away from us.  There are no wrong decisions in the big scheme of things.  In eighty years what will it matter?  Time erases everything.  I lost my life savings in a stock market investment.  Perhaps loosing that money saved my life.  Perhaps somewhere down the road I will avoid something worse because of that experience.

People don't feel like men or women.  Even in that song by Shania Twain she illustrates how experiences make us feel a certain way.  Some crossdressers feel like the other sex by putting on clothes (an experience of sorts).  Going out dancing, getting attention from the opposite sex, looking good...  that is sure to create feelings.  The most intense feeling of being a woman that I ever had and consider a epiphany was accidentally having sex with someone who didn't realize I had transitioned.  He thought I was born female.  That experience changed my own beliefs about life and myself.

It doesn't matter what people intended to convey to you by saying you were a pretty trans girl because it is never about us, it is always about the person making the comment.  People use other people to vent their own self hate and fear.  What they cannot accept about themselves they despise in others.  When someone makes fun of someone they are expressing their own fears of rejection.  It's never about us.  How could it be?

To men women are mysterious and I think that to some aspiring transsexuals women are mysterious and everything is so... "profound". (For lack of a better word).  I mean... Early in my own transition it was like women's clothing had some special power.  Now it's just clothes.  Women's vaginas were a mystery, now they aren't.  The female form seemed to have some kind of special power over me, occasionally it still does unless that no longer happens either.  I'm not sure.

What makes me feel like a woman is being with my opposite, a man.  Especially a tall, manly man.  That really makes me feel like a woman.  Otherwise I usually just feel like a person.  Many people who transition M2F express disappointment after SRS because they thought the surgery was going to make them feel like a woman.  Nope, it's experience and 'being' that makes someone feel a certain way, it's doing.  When I relax I feel relaxed.  If I lie down in a hammock in the shade I will probably feel relaxed, I probably won't feel like a woman.  If I am intimately engaged with a masculine guy (my opposite), I will probably feel like a woman.  Other women are something to compare myself to and honestly I prefer to avoid most of them because they make me feel like less of a woman, except for less attractive, less fit women...  Then I begin to feel better about myself.  Part of the human condition.

You are right, you were born male.  How could you possibly know you are a woman?  I felt the exact same way.  How could I possibly know I was a woman?  I found my knowing in being.  When I was able to have the experiences of being a woman I knew it was right for me.  I gained those experiences by going out into public dressed as a female and those experiences grew into deeper and more meaningful experiences as I progressed.  Conversely those experiences helped me to realize just how wrong being a male was for me.  There was no going back and there never will be.

One thing that helped me to understand this topic better was death.  When someone dies they are no longer a person.  A dead body is a corpse, not a person.  When someone dies they go from being one thing to not being that thing and to being something else.  A corpse is not a person, a corpse is not a woman or a man.  A corpse may be male or female but it is a corpse, not a man or a woman.  While we may be female deep down inside unless we are living it we aren't really it.  Just as a seed is not a tree. The seed of womanhood was planted inside of me but the experience of being a seed is much different from being a tree.  A seed doesn't know what it is like to be a tree because it hasn't had that experience, still there is that intuition.  The seed has an idea but it is the choice of the seed whether to grow or wither in it's husk.

QuoteBlossom."There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin

Most people don't do something until they absolutely have to.  I admire the people who act before they absolutely have to and consider them my superior.

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Julie Wilson

Reasons people detransition...

The cost of transition was too high.  People loose their loved ones and detransition in order to have them back in their lives.

Lack of "acceptance" or really inability to be perceived as transitioned sex.  Most of the time people try to convince friends, coworkers and family that they are actually their transitioned sex and eventually they tire of trying to convince everyone because people never actually buy it.  Especially true the later transitioners.  Sometimes love is enough, sometimes it isn't.  Sometimes people withdraw their love.  When people talk about acceptance they are usually talking about love because generally speaking 99.999 percent of the population believes that people are the sex they were born as.

The belief that transition will allow one to finally feel/be male or female.  Or the belief that surgery will change a person's life.  Surgery won't change your life but it can create a platform for changing one's life.  Some people have surgery and stay in the relationship they have always been in around the same people they have always known.  Their lives don't really change but they got a nice souvenir.  And some people like to collect things. 

Still different strokes for different folks, a true crossdresser is satisfied with wearing the opposite sex's clothing for a while.  I knew someone like that.  Some people just like wearing the clothes or having the body.  Some people need the socialization or want to fit correctly with the opposite sex.  I have often questioned my own motivations.  Was I a gay boy with a Peter Pan condition, always wanting to remain prepubescent, pretty and young?  Maybe..  Maybe it's more complicated than that.  Maybe it isn't.  I am pretty sure it had to do with more than a Peter Pan condition.  Did I transition to avoid being gay?  Lots of gay men prefer the younger men, certainly lots of older men prefer younger women.  Maybe I just wanted to hold onto something.  I will never really know and life certainly isn't perfect.  Not for long anyway.  Really it matters what you do with it.  Some people are only happy when they are struggling or miserable.  People are strange.  Make the best of it I guess, stick with what brings lasting contentment, try for joy even.
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AbraCadabra

Wendy,
all sounding like a non-therapy DIY trip of proportions... and it goes to show that early 'good' therapist input will have its value.
A situation closely related to de-transitioning – in my opinion.

It's like deciding to climb Mount Everest DIY, or reinventing the wheel, or some such. It makes for quite a dramatic read, at least to me.

Noey,
your second last post is one 'out of the park' (home runs) after another - you obviously had plenty opportunity to get those 'ducks in a row'.
For binary folks like myself there is not one sentence that doesn't ring true. Once more, VERY well put and with a very authentic and real feel.

Thank you all,
Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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AbraCadabra

Maybe you living in the wrong place after all? We have at M&S (Woolworth) lace bras 44F ! - NO SWEAT. Note: DD -> E -> F ! NOW we talking SIZE, honey!
One might argue you are still a tad under-developed?  ;D

Just saying, though 650cc IMPLANTS (BTW) is what I got for BOTH ... actually 630cc/2 = 315cc Implants each side, even got a 'manual' for EACH!

All this reading sounds like merry go-round between transition and de-transition.

Could qualify for the Guinness Book of Records for the most de-transitions by a single person... just saying  ;)

Axx
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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UCBerkeleyPostop

QuoteSince I had close to 650cc turbo chargers under my pecs
---Wendy


What possessed you to get these oversized implants?
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Ms. OBrien CVT

Thank you for sharing, Wendy.

Quite a sad story.  I can only hope it gets better for you and you can live your true life as the woman you are/\.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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