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My transgender feelings are at a clash with my alpha male identity.

Started by Ultimus, September 30, 2012, 09:37:36 PM

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tekla

I don't think there is such a thing as too many shoes.

My son would agree, he has over 50 pairs.  Me, I've got about 5.  7 if you toss in my two pair of work boots.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: SageFox on October 17, 2012, 10:43:13 PM
True.  Unfortunately there are such things as too-small closets!   :(

No kidding. I can't fit all the stuff I have in my tiny closet :(
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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kelly_aus

I've never had an alpha-male identity. I was always the girly guy who got bullied and beaten up - at least until I found I could give as good as I got. That was more self preservation than any kind of male identity though.  I'm one of those trans women that stumbled through a male life.. I don't really understand them and I'm not interested in them romantically.. And yet some of my oldest and best friends are guys - go figure.


Quote from: SageFox on October 17, 2012, 10:43:13 PM
True.  Unfortunately there are such things as too-small closets!   :(

I found more room in my closet for clothes and shoes once I removed myself from it..
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helen2010

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on October 16, 2012, 06:27:26 AM
Its actually quite common. The theory is the individual is overcompensating in an attempt to repress or stamp out their transgender feelings.
I can certainly identify with this statement.  I learned to play the alpha male role very well indeed.  However it was not until much later that I recognised that the alpha male  was not my real self.  Once I recognised that I was TG, started hrt and realised that I did  not have to adopt a rigid male binary in terms of presentation my dysphoria disappeared, I felt at peace with myself and with others.   The continual noise just disappeared.  I am now in a much better place and have learned that gender expression is fluid and identity evolves.  It has not been an easy journey particularly when  you start out doing all you can to convince yourself and others that you are an alpha male and that is the only possibility that you can conceive of
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Apples Mk.II


My personal clash is mind against body. I don't have a single male related hobby. I hate car races (waste of useful resources), football is boring and impossible to understand (no interest in handegg, too), and I hate all sort of violence, be it in sport or real life.  Maybe the violence thing is caused by the bullying, or maybe not. Cooking is nothing more than a survival skill, but I love creative hobbies and I do want to lean how to use a sewing machine (I have a few ideas for a doll I want to put in practice). I used to have lots of un-manly hobbies, but I had to stop because of the social pressure and stick with the "male accepted" ones like photography, videogames or movies... Whenever I let slip that I have knowledge on fashion or any other thing labelled as un-manly I will get the "gaaayyyyyy" looks along with "you need a girlfriend and more sex".
I have tried to get on "manly" hobbies thinking it would look correct at the eyes of society and telling myself that un-manly things were an aberration.


Yet, I can't find a single "girly" thing in me outside my mind. No physical features, voice, movement...  I can modify the clothing presentation within the accepted limits... Raising the pitch just a bit and talk without all of the resonance (removing it completely will raise complaints). It sucks a lot. I won't talk about the hair, it is an unusable thing on life support. Trying to smile casually... Well, it is hard with depression. I may have adopted a few mannerisms on things like sitting or occupying public space, but I still feel like something trapped inside a heavy, bulky and hard to move body.

Movement is the worst. It is like piloting the Mazinger Z from a tiny cockpit, and always stiff to the extreme to overcompensate for the previous bad posture when I moved like a hunchback for years, always looking down to the floor, I now have the same walking wait as Robocop (minus the gun on the thigh). I can't feel fluid, and I am always at a maximum tension, looking for danger at the turn of the corner. If I try to ease the tension and relax, I feel that I am walking like I did before and my neck goes back to acting like a turtle. I know, there are to many years of no exercise, self care, etc... When three years ago I started worrying about my self image, I did it to attain a dominant male look, and I changed from walking like quasimodo moving like Schwarzenegger on the Terminator Films. I don't have a natural balance, and it used to be worse. The last year, I would hit against the walls while moving and hit things like fire extinguisers. I am recovering a bit of balance thanks to the physical therapy, but I can't shake the robocop feeling. In the moment I loosen the body I keep going back to the bad postural habits.

Maybe is just a matter of time. I did not recover a neutral stance until three weeks ago, I have months of therapy  until fixing the bones and I need to improve the muscular tone... Or I could get into pilates or something like that. The fact is that all of this physical feeling is the biggest thing that keeps telling me "You can't be transgender like this".

Oddly, no crossdressing fetishism here, it just makes me feel bad, the same as lying. Just a sad costume representing what I am not.
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Meria

Come on. Lets not be masculinists ourselves. Some people around here said something that can share very well my opinion, specially MaidofOrleans.

Times are different, 2012. There's absolutely nothing wrong with women liking sports, and martial arts, and... I dont know, cars, games! Its actually becoming something very common nowadays, and Im pretty much happy about that.

Why would you say its something exclusively for males? Forgive me, I dont mean to be rude, but thats silly. Stupid old-society rules. Break them! As many cis women do.
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Dahlia

Quote from: Meria on October 18, 2012, 10:09:31 AM
Come on. Lets not be masculinists ourselves. Some people around here said something that can share very well my opinion, specially MaidofOrleans.

Times are different, 2012. There's absolutely nothing wrong with women liking sports, and martial arts, and... I dont know, cars, games! Its actually becoming something very common nowadays, and Im pretty much happy about that.

Why would you say its something exclusively for males? Forgive me, I dont mean to be rude, but thats silly. Stupid old-society rules. Break them! As many cis women do.

Times are different, sure. But it appears that at 2012 there are A LOT MTF who are (very, very) masculine, into very masculine things and former heteroguys/lesbians. Actually by far the majority of the MTF community.

FAR more than amongst ciswomen.

How come??
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Trans Truth

Quote from: Dahlia on October 19, 2012, 07:22:24 AM
Times are different, sure. But it appears that at 2012 there are A LOT MTF who are (very, very) masculine, into very masculine things and former heteroguys/lesbians. Actually by far the majority of the MTF community.

FAR more than amongst ciswomen.

How come??

I'm mostly lesbian but I am not masculine. I have never been a heteroguy and have never been into very masculine things.
So don't generalise.
http://trans-solutions.blogspot.com/ - Calling for solutions for all trans people.



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suzifrommd

Quote from: Dahlia on October 19, 2012, 07:22:24 AM
Times are different, sure. But it appears that at 2012 there are A LOT MTF who are (very, very) masculine, into very masculine things and former heteroguys/lesbians. Actually by far the majority of the MTF community.

FAR more than amongst ciswomen.

How come??

Easy. Most of have had many decades to solidfy what we like and what we are like. We've been living as males during that time.

And for me (please don't flame me. I'm not saying anyone else is this way), while the part of my brain that knows what gender it is seems to be female, other parts of my brain seem very typically male.  I like board games, worked as a computer programmer, excelled in math, happily played with toy guns, soldiers, and trucks as a kid, and tend to get right to the point rather than being concerned with everyone's feelings. All of these traits are more common among males than females.

That's OK, I've decided. Doesn't make me less Trans or less of a woman. It's just reality.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Noah

Oh...my...goddess....

This thread has quickly become a repugnant recycling of mysoginistic stereotypes which function to disarm and disable women in subordination to men. If you haven't figured out by now that being a woman isn't correlated to your shoe collection - you have a lot of deprogramming from the sexist patriarchal society that forged you to do.

It is absolutely essential to examine our interests and mannerisms as we acknowledge our trans identity - it is important to dismantle conceptions about who we are and who we were told to be, or thought we were, as we redefine ourselves. It is healthy and normal to ask these questions, and certainly it is confusing for an Alpha Male to struggle with being transgender.

If this experience has taught me anything is to dispose of the rulebook. Human beings looks and act in an infinite combination of ways, and to strictly adhere any person to a standard applied to their sex-grouped community, is deadly. As trans people we often illuminate the problematic function of gender within our own heteronormative culture. We are subject to the same influences by society as cis people, but it becomes inflamed during our transitions, at least to the outside world. Its okay to like whatever you like...just remember that you're worth more than a list of butch/femme hobbies and behaviors. If I went around my friend group deciding whether or not people were men or women based on the standards I am reading in this thread, all of my cis girlfriends would be dudes.

Be very careful with this stuff - you're not responsible for putting these ideas into your head,  but you are responsible for what you choose to do with them.
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Stephe

Quote from: Dahlia on October 19, 2012, 07:22:24 AM
Times are different, sure. But it appears that at 2012 there are A LOT MTF who are (very, very) masculine, into very masculine things and former heteroguys/lesbians. Actually by far the majority of the MTF community.

FAR more than amongst ciswomen.

How come??

Nice fat paint brush you have wielded, again...
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Stephe

Quote from: agfrommd on October 19, 2012, 08:32:46 AM

That's OK, I've decided. Doesn't make me less Trans or less of a woman. It's just reality.



Bottom line, don't sweat it. Like you, I know it doesn't make people any less or more of anything. If following this theory helps them feel better about who they are, I guess there isn't much harm in it.
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Christine

For me, trying to define, analyze or categorize myself was an attempt to understand feelings in a way that made sense to a binary and rational brain.  I never found that solution. Nearly driving myself to the funny farm in the process.  To many variables. It was simply to much to deal with.  It's rather ironic that In the end the only real solution for me was to accept myself as I am and define myself as simply "me" . Once I did that I became free to express myself in the way that felt right. I no longer cared about what was male or female. Over the years I moved more and more towards one end of the spectrum. It became apparent even to me who I really was. The lack of T confirmed the direction I was headed and it just felt right. These days I feel correct inside.  Never felt that way before.  Move slowly and make gradual steps and stop when it doesn't feel right inside. You may look around at that point and discover yourself. Good luck
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Sybil

I think a lot of people who point out that many trans women are "masculine" and homosexual (lesbian) are doing it out of bitterness and frustration; that if society sees our type of woman behaving that way, it'll make society see all of us that way and use those reasons (masculinity) to invalidate us as women. That it'll make society question our motives and our integrity. I can understand why some trans women try to apply this thought to their polarized sisters, and at one point I was even a little guilty of doing that myself -- but it is so very wrong.

To me, it makes sense that most trans women would enjoy male activities and be attracted to women:

1. Most trans women are raised as males. There is nothing inherently male or female about the vast majority of activities available to human beings. How many people would give up things that they were taught and indeed learned to like, even love? Not many. It's not about gender. It's mostly about where people were when they were kids, and their environment and culture tends to control that.

2. We're a gender anomaly. I don't think anyone can deny that gender has a relationship to sexuality. If gender identity is something genetic and we're given male parts with female brains, then doesn't it make sense that some of us would also receive a "male" sexuality? Sexuality, like gender, exists somewhere between the mental and the physical, and I think that general realm is where we suffer the most wire crossing. Maybe it just so happens that sexual identity has a strong tendency toward the physical.

For what it's worth, here's a description of me on this spectrum:
- I'm only and strongly attracted to men.
- I'm by and large into very "feminine" things (cooking, decorating, trinkets/jewelry, socializing, emotionally driven talking, watching and reading emotionally driven works, collecting pretty artwork, clothing and its applications as an artform).
- The only "masculine" things about me are that I love video games and most of my friends are guys.

It's frustrating to see that this is still such a community war, and it's frustrating to know that women in general continue to undergo these oppressive labels of what is and is not okay for us to do. If anything, the women of my type are the odd trans women. A lot of people could just as easily call us incredibly gay men averting our fate, and indeed some (really crazy) feminists do make that argument; much like other people argue that masculine/lesbian trans women are just fanatic male fetishists.

tl;dr Please, please give up this stereotype-driven argument and don't spread the opinion that masculine/gay trans women are somehow invalid - it's a really awful, mean, oppressive, blind argument that doesn't just hurt us as a community, but all women at large.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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tekla

Sometimes I wonder if instead of Susan's (a site devoted to transgender issues) that by mistake I've wound up on a parody site devoted to upholding the most narrow and ridged sexual stereotypes of the 17th Century.  Sort of like the difference between White House.com and White House.gov.

I wonder if most of the posters live in Podunk or East Jebus - because I'm pretty sure you don't live in a) a major city, or b) a big university town - because if you did you'd toss that notion that 'boys like sports and girls don't faster than that pair of Crocs you bought and thought were stylish for like a second and a half.  In SF our team is won the division and is in the playoffs - and the amount of orange&black that people are wearing is staggering.  Ever been to Chicago?  I don't think you can find a girl who doesn't own and sports some Cubbies stuff (unless they are a Sox fans).  The NFL came out 3 years ago with merch lines of woman's styles and cuts and it's selling like hot cakes - and for sure you've never been around someplace like University of Michigan when they play Michigan State.  Nope not a single woman in that state interested in sports, nope.

It's like 2012 people, and women can be the boss and men can raise children.  All sorts of people are interested in all sorts of different things, the more interesting they are, the more interests they have.  The person I know who is an absolute god of soft goods (fabrics and draping) who does fabric treatments for theaters, corporations and the kind of parties you can't afford to go to rides a full hog Harley.

Stop with the stereotypes, which were not true in the first place and anymore are not even quaint or funny.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Keaira


There's nothing wrong with living in a podunk town or BFE or in the middle of NYC. I like it in my podunk town because I enjoy my outdoor space, low volumes of traffic and the lack of elitist A-holes that the nearest city seems full of.  And I moved here from a college town (BSU) because it IS a college town.
So what does location have to do with it? I grew up on military bases in England and Germany. I've traveled the globe and done more in my teenage years than most get to in a lifetime.

People cling to what's comfortable to them, especially when it's something they grew up with. Not every woman here will become a gun-loving butch lesbian with a shaved head, or become a girly-girl. a person is free to be what they wish.
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Isabelle

T
Quoteif you did you'd toss that notion that 'boys like sports and girls don't faster than that pair of Crocs you bought and thought were stylish for like a second and a half.

Ill have you know, Crocs are still the most effective form of birth control ever developed. If you don't believe me, try to find a willing breeding partner while wearing them.
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tekla

I say that because you must be coming from a pretty 'out of the mainstream' place if you really think that girls don't like sports, or that all boys do - and that's some kind of magic dividing line.  I mean it really sounds kind of silly when you realize the total world domination that female American athletes hold over the rest of the world.  Far more than their male counterparts.

I mean its possible to do both - to 'be all that you can be.  I love the girl stuff in my life  - the clothes, the relationships, the conversation patterns, the shopping expeditions, the more domestic stuff.

But it's not like any of this "girl stuff" in my life ever seemed to interfere with any of my male-type crap. I've raced dirt bikes, skied tons of double black diamond runs and participated in high school sports. I spit, swear, shoot guns and scratch my crotch in public. I play baseball, cheer the 49ers, read military history, and play heavy metal music really, really loud on my Stereo of the Gods. I drive a sports car and a 750cc racing motorcycle. I can do all the male repair stuff like fixing the toaster, dishwasher, plumbing, windows, washing machines, cars, lawnmowers and bikes. I hike, climb, canoe, sail and wear a business suit extremely well when I need to. I've done concert security/management/production off and on for 40 years including running mosh pits for some of the wildest bands to ever grace a stage. I've partied hardy so damn hard that it qualifies as an interstate crime spree replete with multiple federal felonies - not that they are all that hard to come by anymore - but we just called it Grateful Dead Summer Tour then.

And, I know lots of girls who wanted to do boy stuff. You know: join the Marines, wear jeans, ski hard, drive fast cars, be the boss. And they all did. And in defense of the men of my generation, most of us basically let them, taught them and even encouraged them to follow that course. So why should it be abnormal, extravagant or dysfunctional for a boy to want to do girl stuff once in a while? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that our society and culture (collectively as well as individually) has some real major problems with that particular reversal. At any rate, I grew up in a period when these very issues were in a period of flux and change without equal in Western Civilization, so maybe I just got caught in a riptide or some backwash eddy of these currents, it's hard to say.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Maddie

Since it keeps getting brought up, I have to say that I don't see cooking as a female thing, at all.

My greatgrandfather was head chef at a major metropolitan hotel, he did all the cooking in the family home. After he died, my grandfather took over. My dad rarely cooked and neither did my mum, we just went out to restaurants all the time. I did my own cooking whilst at uni, and so did my three housemates. Sometimes we cooked for each other, as well. I still cook. I'm good at it. When I go to a restaurant, 9 out of 10 times, the chef is male. When I watch cooking programmes on telly, the presenters are predominantly men. Off hand, the only current cisfemale pro cook I can think of who's really good is Lorraine Pascale, and, frankly, she's primarily a pastry chef.

Cooking is when I feel the least feminine.
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kathy bottoms

I'm transitioning to escape the gender prison I was in.  Why would I want my new gender to be another prison filled with conformity and stereotypes?   It's just Orwellian, and this little world is bad enough already. 

Kathy
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