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Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

Started by Carlita, December 18, 2012, 04:10:41 AM

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mintra

Quote from: O_O on December 26, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
In Thailand anything unusual is lucky, trans people are good luck because they are unusual (or they used to be) turns out that if something is lucky then more people are likely to create luck for themselves.  Children are sometimes encouraged to be trans in Thailand so the family can have good luck.

O_O,  I do respect your belief on being stealth even though it's different than mine and I admire your way with words and beautiful language but I'm just curious how you came up with that about transexual culture in Thailand. Do you have any reference to support that because but I think you are losing credibility here.
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O_O

Quote from: mintra on December 26, 2012, 11:00:16 PM
O_O,  I do respect your belief on being stealth even though it's different than mine and I admire your way with words and beautiful language but I'm just curious how you came up with that about transexual culture in Thailand. Do you have any reference to support that because but I think you are losing credibility here.

I lived in Thailand for three months and visited with people there.  I got this information from people I visited with while I was in Thailand.  I had a sixty day visa that I extended to ninety days. It isn't something I read on Wikipedia or in any book, it was first hand experience, talking to locals. 
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O_O

#122
Quote from: Emily52736 on December 26, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
The way you confront it is going stealth. Is there a right way or a wrong way? Maybe, maybe not. It's your life, not ours. We've all spent enough time living someone else's idea of our own lives to know that the decision is ours alone. All we can say is what we would do and move on. Whether or not you agree, listen, or do the same thing is entirely up to you.

You haven't been processing what I have said.  Stealth is an intermediate phase between passing and assimilation.  I am not a cat living in a bird suit, I am a bird.  Feel free to tell people that you are a cat living in a bird suit if it seems safer to you.  Birds don't fly because they are afraid of the ground, they fly because they can.

Oh and the decision is absolutely yours to make.  I support you in whatever decision you choose to make.  I don't want to influence anyone, I just want for people to know that there is an alternative.  But whenever I try to encourage people a conspiracy of trans people begin to feel like it's a tug-of-war.  Since I am only one person on this forum and one with a very unpopular point of view I don't feel like being dragged around the school yard anymore.

You are very in style, very popular and you have a huge support base on this forum who believes exactly as you do.  Even non-trans people share your beliefs, that you are not a real woman and therefore must confess to anyone who might be interested in you.  I only come here to share an unpopular idea because my concern is that it may be relevant for someone, I am not trying to convert an entire website.  All I am saying is there is a road less traveled by and all I am suggesting is that one consider it.

I am suggesting that authenticity isn't measured by birth genitals.

I am suggesting that people will treat you the way you believe you deserve to be treated.

I am suggesting that acceptance begins with you.

What you believe about yourself will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Feel free to believe whatever you like.
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O_O

#123
Quote from: muuu on December 27, 2012, 03:15:46 AM


@O_O
What do you do if your partner asks about your childhood? I'm not sure if "I don't want to talk about it" would work for too long, because they'd probably get worried and want to know about it... or something.


The guys I have been with have never asked me about my childhood.  The last guy I was with, all he was ever interested in was having sex with me.  He took me to movies, restaurants and we hung out together and all he was concerned about was having sex with me, that was the only thing on his mind.

As trans women who are transitioning we tend to come up with a lot of hypotheticals that are designed to keep us from stepping out of our comfort zones.  Fear,
Quotefear 
/fi(ə)r/
Noun
An unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

Almost all fears only exist in our imaginations.

But also, a situation that may seem inconceivable during transition may begin to seem entirely plausible after transition.  Transition usually happens gradually over time.  Ideas tend to change gradually.  We may be completely against something one day and then gradually over time our ideas may soften until one day we find ourselves on the opposite side of an opinion.  You can't change what people believe.  Beliefs come from experience.  If you transition to female and pass as female and begin having experiences that only a female can have, you may begin to see yourself differently.  Most people will never allow themselves to have any experiences that will cause them to change.  It is like their beliefs about themselves become them and if their ideas were proved wrong, they would react instinctively as though their very life was in danger (because they believe they are their ideas).  They believe life the world and everything are their ideas, how narcissistic and ignorant is that?  It is called ego, our ideas about our self = ego and ego will fight to the death to stay alive.

So I know I am not going to change anyone's ideas.  But it was never my goal to change anyone's ideas.  Rather it is my goal to cause people to begin to realize that they can be the co-creator of their own life, destiny, etc.  What you believe about yourself has power, the power to transform you and the power to prevent transformation.  Some day you may have an experience that changes how you think and because of that experience you may recall an idea I shared with you, even if only subliminally and you may begin to realize that you have the power to be whatever you believe yourself to be, mostly by not believing things about yourself.  The way it typically happens is by having something you previously believed to be impossible actually happen, it is the experience of being proven wrong that was so profound for me.  So prove me wrong, I would love to have another experience like that.

So about a boyfriend (or whomever) asking you a question about your childhood...  Is someone who is dating you going to ask you a question that you can't answer because you grew up with the wrong genitals?  This has never happened to me.  The only time it even came close to happening was when people had heard rumors about me and a coworker told me with a smirk on her face that she wanted to see a picture of me from my childhood, "Implication you are really just a man and a photo from the past will prove it!"

Lots of trans people like to suggest that if you don't tell people you transitioned that you will have to lie all the time and that you will end up digging a giant hole for yourself.  That has never been the case for me either.  The people who have heard rumors about me that imply I am not really a woman don't deserve any kind of answer at all.  And the only honesty they are interested in is an "honesty" that will satisfy all the juicy gossip they have heard.  Screw them.  If it really came down to it and my partner asked me if I was really a woman the only thing I would say to him is, "Are you saying you no longer love me?" Because if he has decided that what and who I am is a complete lie based on some conflicting information he heard or found and if it is an issue to him then he doesn't love me and it's over.  If you want to keep something or someone you have to overcome your attachment to it.  Attachment will make you a slave.  Also the experience of being in a relationship with another person will cause you to know them more than words or rumors, if someone told you that your wife was really just a man in disguise and you believed it and it changed your partner forever in your mind then you were never really in a relationship with them to begin with.  The bible says something about how you will know people not by what they say about themselves but rather by what they do and I have found this to be absolutely true (I am agnostic btw).

If I ever find myself married to a guy and after many years of marriage he brings up the issue of my having transitioned I am just going to say what is true already. "I thought you already knew and you were being respectful of me by not saying anything because you love me."  I always assume that everyone knows I transitioned and that they are okay with it.  So for me saying this would be the truth.

However I don't have a problem with lying.  There have been times I lied to people to save my ass.  I never lied to create a false image or to make myself feel good.  Stupid lying is stupid.  Women who transition seldom ever have to lie if they believe they have always been female.  And lying by omission is only lying to people who object to you getting away with it.  Refer to Ferris Bueller's day off, too many people are too much like Ferris Bueller's sister and need to get over themselves. 
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O_O

This thread reminded me of some good YouTubes, they aren't perfect but they are the best I have seen so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_1pBiwaeQ&list=UUamaea05bOJ0q42F9iyaFMA&index=106




This video explains how to transition to one of two sexes.



We tend to define a thing by looking at it instead of looking inside ourselves.  As long as woman or man = some pre-determined/pre-defined thing that is separate from us - we will never have any connection to it and we will never experience it as an aspect of our being.  Rather we will tend to adapt it to suit our needs, modify it, adopt some aspects of it, toss out others and overlook still others.

You cannot think of woman as a pre-defined thing and experience a M2F transition that leads to "just being one of the girls." Unless you can realize there is no spoon.  Woman is not a thing, she is an experience.  This is my answer to the OP.  One has to realize that one's ideas about an experience do not equal the experience, the only thing that equals the experience is the experience.  Believing that an experience is a thing sets it apart as being separate from us and causes it to be so inflexible that we can never experience it for ourselves.

Transition is a platform for experience, that is all transition is.  Many who transition get SRS and then are like, "WTF, I finally had SRS and I don't feel any different."  They haven't had the experiences of being female yet.  SRS is not a female experience, it only paves the way for the experience of being female.  Life prior to transition creates a system of beliefs about everything, what it means to be male, what it means to be female.  Both typically from the standpoint of never really experiencing either.  In order to experience being female, in order to just be one of the girls one must have 'experiences' after transition, experiences that change previously held ideas about life, about ourselves, about being male or female, ideas we formed prior to or during transition.

Enlightenment is something that many people have sought and they always wanted someone to explain it to them so they could know it, but enlightenment cannot be explained because enlightenment is an experience, it is not an idea.  So instead people would pose riddles for the student so that the student could have the experience of realization.  Realization is an interesting word, it basically means to make real.  To real-ize, it is when an idea is no longer an idea, it is real.  The most real thing we can have in this life is an experience.  When we realize something it becomes more than an idea, it becomes an experience.  Ideas are two dimensional, they exist in the mind and on paper.  An idea won't change anything unless it is implemented.  Existing as an idea was something I did before I started passing as female.  It was not the best of times.

Having ideas about being female is more of a deterrent than it is helpful, unless those ideas arise out of the experience of being female.  Not what we believe being female is, what we experience as female after a successful M2F transition with people who only know us as female.  That is the only way to bend the spoon.

Does it matter?  No, it doesn't matter to me.  I already transitioned and I have had many incredible experiences.  This isn't about me anymore and I don't have any investment in what you choose to do with your life.  I am just here to tell you to forget what you know and believe in yourself and since it is only advice you can take it or leave it.  Whatever you choose will be the right thing to for you to do because you chose it.  Is one experience any better than the other?  That's for you to decide and it depends upon what you want to get out of transition.  You will know success when you experience success, not when you live up to someone else's expectations.
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O_O

Just wanted to say I was sorry for leaving you with an ambiguous argument.  I mentioned in a previous post that the most amazing experience I ever had was being proven wrong.  But I am left thinking, how much more easy would transition have been if I hadn't been believing things that were wrong.  And it is our experience that give us our ideas, to avoid wrong ideas I think I may have had to avoid being alive before transition.

So since I feel like my post lacked the clarity I wanted to provide you with I am going to explain what led to me being proven wrong.  When I began transitioning I believed that I would always be trans and I believed that I would only ever be able to have sex with or date guys who were okay with trans women.  I considered myself a trans woman because that was my experience and because our ideas come out of our experiences.  My experience was transition and being a M2F and I just believed I would always be trans.

There was someone named Kate Grimaldi on the Interwebz and she used to talk about how we could just be women after transition.  What she said made me angry.  I believed that it would be deception to engage in romantic activity with a man after transition without first confessing to him that I was actually a trans woman. I argued with Kate Grimaldi and told her how dishonest she was to pose as a female without disclosing she was trans.

Then I went to a bar and I had ridden my motorcycle to this bar and it got so cold with the wind-chill that I could no longer feel my hands or forearms.  I knew there was no way I was going to be able to ride home that night and that I was going to have to find someone in the bar that I could spend the night with.  I met this guy who was at the bar with his two gay coworkers, but the guy who was interested in me was straight, married even.

I just assumed that since he was in a gay bar that he realized I was trans, it seemed like everyone else did so it wasn't much of a stretch.  He paid for a hotel and in exchange for sex he was going to allow me a warm place to spend the night.  After sex he got really angry and really serious, he demanded to know if I was on birth control.  He told me that if I tried to ruin his life and his marriage by getting pregnant that he was going to kill me.  He made this statement several times that he would kill me to save his marriage. And he demanded assurance that I was taking birth control.  I told him I was, I was doing depot provera shots which is considered birth control.  I wasn't taking it as birth control but I didn't want to further upset a very agitated man.

I didn't have an orgasm and the sex wasn't good in that it felt good, but I was being experienced by a straight man as a woman, not as a trans woman as a Cis woman.  Previous to this I believed that I would always be trans and that I would have to always confess before any sex but I was duped into having sex with someone who I thought for certain knew I was trans, when he hadn't any clue whatsoever.

I had never had the experience of being accepted as female.  Oh I had sex with guys who knew but they had always experienced me as a trans woman, not as a cis woman.  Something impossible had happened, I had an experience that only a Cis female could have and that experience shaped my mind, perhaps not right away but I had learned that something completely impossible had become possible.  I had been proven wrong.  And I knew what it was like to be experienced by a straight man as a cis female and I never wanted to ever go back to having sex with guys who knew I transitioned.  Plus I had the added experience of experiencing a cis male as a cis female.  I wasn't up in my head narrating my experience because I thought he already knew and I thought it was a non issue. Handsome English man picks up trans girl in gay bar.  By the time I begun to realize what was happening there was no way to stop it (safely).

Once I realized that my ideas about being trans after transition were now in question I softened my ideas around such things and my humility allowed me to begin to have an open mind.  I began to realize there was a lot I didn't know and I wrote Kate Grimaldi telling her about my experience and about how the things she had been saying were beginning to make sense to me.  Once I had that experience I wanted more and I was beginning to believe in and accept myself as female.  I wanted desperately to continue along this amazing journey.

If that means anything to you then it does. If that doesn't mean anything to you then it doesn't.  I can try to share an experience with you but I am limited to words and ideas which are two dimensional.  My experience was so much more than words or an idea.  The things you believe are a product of your experiences.  Are you having the experiences that you want to have.  If anything that is what you should be asking?

Fortunately life kept proving to me that I was wrong and I had to continue changing my ideas about myself and life.  Really that is my legacy, being proven wrong and I am very grateful for that experience.
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Emily Aster

Quote from: O_O on December 27, 2012, 01:59:10 AM
You haven't been processing what I have said.  Stealth is an intermediate phase between passing and assimilation.  I am not a cat living in a bird suit, I am a bird.  Feel free to tell people that you are a cat living in a bird suit if it seems safer to you.  Birds don't fly because they are afraid of the ground, they fly because they can.

Actually I do get what you're saying, that a complete transition means a total change to the target sex. I get that. I really do. I just don't get that your past is no longer a part of you, so that's why I used the word stealth. I didn't mean to offend you or anybody else. It's just how I see it.   


Quote from: O_O on December 27, 2012, 01:59:10 AM
You are very in style, very popular and you have a huge support base on this forum who believes exactly as you do.  Even non-trans people share your beliefs, that you are not a real woman and therefore must confess to anyone who might be interested in you.  I only come here to share an unpopular idea because my concern is that it may be relevant for someone, I am not trying to convert an entire website.  All I am saying is there is a road less traveled by and all I am suggesting is that one consider it.

I'm not trying to bash you. It's almost impossible to prove when almost everybody else has the same viewpoint as me, but I do have some very strong opinions on things and if I didn't agree with the group I would be just as vocal about it. It just happens that I agree with them on this point. I did also like your story about how you came to your conclusions though. It really helped me to understand the why.
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mintra

Quote from: O_O on December 27, 2012, 01:45:45 AM
I lived in Thailand for three months and visited with people there.  I got this information from people I visited with while I was in Thailand.  I had a sixty day visa that I extended to ninety days. It isn't something I read on Wikipedia or in any book, it was first hand experience, talking to locals.

O_O, you were significantly misinformed during your short stay there. Being trans is never considered lucky in Thai culture. Just wanted to correct you on that particular statement. I don't want to steer off topic so please continue further with the discussion on being one of the girls.
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Annah

Quote from: O_O on December 27, 2012, 03:50:40 AM

The guys I have been with have never asked me about my childhood.  The last guy I was with, all he was ever interested in was having sex with me.  He took me to movies, restaurants and we hung out together and all he was concerned about was having sex with me, that was the only thing on his mind.

I would suggest stop dating men who only wants sex.

The men I date wants to know me. We go out and spend time together and I even visited his family and he visited my family this Christmas. Sex is just one part that we share together and no..he doesn't date me because he wants sex. We didnt have sex until after a few months of dating.

He dates me because we have things in common, we share the same passions, he finds me intelligent and I find him intelligent, and he loves me.  Sex is just one small piece of the puzzle for us.

Part of our relationship together is exploring each other and knowing their pasts, the passions, the foods they like, the movies they like, their joys and their concerns.

I personally would never date a guy who just wants sex. That to me is no way to share a life together (or even a dating time together). There are men out there who would give anything to be loved back. There are plenty of men who are out there that don't want to date a woman just for sex...they date a woman for companionship.

QuoteBut also, a situation that may seem inconceivable during transition may begin to seem entirely plausible after transition.  Transition usually happens gradually over time.  Ideas tend to change gradually.  We may be completely against something one day and then gradually over time our ideas may soften until one day we find ourselves on the opposite side of an opinion.  You can't change what people believe.  Beliefs come from experience.  If you transition to female and pass as female and begin having experiences that only a female can have, you may begin to see yourself differently.  Most people will never allow themselves to have any experiences that will cause them to change.  It is like their beliefs about themselves become them and if their ideas were proved wrong, they would react instinctively as though their very life was in danger (because they believe they are their ideas).  They believe life the world and everything are their ideas, how narcissistic and ignorant is that?  It is called ego, our ideas about our self = ego and ego will fight to the death to stay alive.

Again, as I stated earlier this is not entirely true. I am the same person I was before I transitioned. Some may have changed in their transition but not everyone.

QuoteLots of trans people like to suggest that if you don't tell people you transitioned that you will have to lie all the time and that you will end up digging a giant hole for yourself. 

Yes. Me included. And so do half of the girls on that transgender day of remembrance.

You can try to rational it away with paragraphs and paragraphs of statements but at the end of the day...yes you are keeping your past from someone who wants to share yours and his paths together.

If you date men who only wants sex and don't want to know your past then that is a relationship situation that only you can figure out. Your relationship history is not the foundational laywork of a transgender relationship. You are basing your past dating experiences as absolute truths. The simple fact that my dating experience is the opposite of yours shows me (and I pray) others that your experience is not the truth.

I will always say this and always will. A relationship that is build around trust with no skeletons in the closet is MUCH more rewarding than keeping things from those who are in a relationship with others.

I can see your point tho. If you date men just for the sex there is no need to sharing a past because those relationships never lasts long. Again, if this is the type of companionship you enjoy then that is awesome. My point is, stop assuming your philosophies, viewpoints, and truths are for transgender people in general.

QuoteHowever I don't have a problem with lying.

I noticed lol 

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Annah

yes when we start taking hormones it is like a teenager but we are not teenagers.

We are adults.

When I first started transitioning I did not revert to a teenager status. Yes, the hormones were raging and it was at times unpleasant, but I didn't slip on a uber tight mini, stiletto heels and slept with every Tom, Dick, and Harry because I "felt like a teenager." Not every teenager acts like that..whether its a real teenager or someone going through it again.

Also, you may think it's not lying. And it's not lying in an outward sense but the truth is you are withholding some pretty damn important specifics of your past with someone that you are currently sharing your life with.

To me, that isn't very fair for the person who wants to share their lives with.

And I am sorry if this sounds harsh but when someone doesn't share something that important about themselves to someone they are dating then that tells me they are more afraid about loosing the man and it hardly has anything to do with 9 paragraphs of trans philosophical thought.
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Alainaluvsu

To me, not being honest about yourself just screams insecurity. Also, it continues the negative stereotypes that many of us are facing, (IE they just do it to trick men into being gay!!)

Quote from: muuu on December 27, 2012, 01:43:39 PM
So, in other words, you don't think somebody who started living as a girl at 6 can ever live their life without telling their partner? What exactly is so important?

I don't see any reason they should hide it either. I think it'd be messed up for them to lead men they're having a long term relationship with to believe they could have children together when she knows she can't. It's also kinda wrong because, let's face it, some men are completely objectionable due to whatever reason (religion more than likely). I think it's pretty messed up (no matter how much I might disagree with their views) to put someone in that kind of situation.

And I can totally respect that a guy might not wanna date me because I'm trans. This may be unpopular to say, but I have a friend that is HIV positive that thinks it's wrong for people to avoid sexual encounters with him (because there is a very low chance of transmission from somebody on medications). I think it's kind of the same. Not in the sense that we are some sort of contagious disease, but because he gets offended if he is seen for his condition in a way that isn't advantageous to him.

Part of loving yourself and accepting yourself is that you be proud of yourself.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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MariaMx

Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 11:40:59 AM
Quote O_O: "However I don't have a problem with lying."

I noticed lol
I find your comment here very telling (I'm feeling a bit POed right now so bear with me), seems to me you are attempting to employ master suppression techniques.

The way you quote O_O you try to make it seem as if O_O has made a blanket statement about how she feels about lying and dishonesty, however in reading what she wrote it is painfully obvious that conditions were given. Ie. what she said was that she don't have a problem with lying to save her ass, in fact she says so explicitly, yet you find it appropriate to squeeze in a cheap shot by quoting her out of context. Very nice.
"Of course!"
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Annah

interesting.

you are using the same "suppression technique" you accused me of doing.

You should take the time to read my entire post (like I did with 0_0)
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Annah

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 27, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
To me, not being honest about yourself just screams insecurity. Also, it continues the negative stereotypes that many of us are facing, (IE they just do it to trick men into being gay!!)

I don't see any reason they should hide it either. I think it'd be messed up for them to lead men they're having a long term relationship with to believe they could have children together when she knows she can't. It's also kinda wrong because, let's face it, some men are completely objectionable due to whatever reason (religion more than likely). I think it's pretty messed up (no matter how much I might disagree with their views) to put someone in that kind of situation.

And I can totally respect that a guy might not wanna date me because I'm trans. This may be unpopular to say, but I have a friend that is HIV positive that thinks it's wrong for people to avoid sexual encounters with him (because there is a very low chance of transmission from somebody on medications). I think it's kind of the same. Not in the sense that we are some sort of contagious disease, but because he gets offended if he is seen for his condition in a way that isn't advantageous to him.

Part of loving yourself and accepting yourself is that you be proud of yourself.

I agree with this 100%.

Thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion
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MariaMx

Quote from: muuu on December 27, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
I assume part of why O_O is dating those guys is to catch up with experience, and I personally think it's a necessary step to actually start functioning well as a person.
I think you are jumping to conclusions and it is totally inappropriate to assume that all the guys O_O date are like that. She said "The last guy I was with", not "All the guys I'm with". I've had misfortune of running into a dud or two as well, just like many women before and after me.
"Of course!"
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Annah

Maria, it's not assumption when 0_0 states the men she dates just want to have sex. It's black and white....there was no assuming anything.

Also, we certainly aren't going to convince each other in this thread.

You continue to not tell the men you date and further the stereotype that transgender women "trick" men.

I will continue to tell the truth to the men I date.

And let bygones be bygones. I wont be one of those transgender people who keeps secrets.
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Emily Aster

Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 02:13:17 PM
I agree with this 100%.

Thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion

Ditto
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Stephe

Quote from: muuu on December 27, 2012, 03:15:46 AM
@Stephe
Is childhood/teenage really that common of a topic? Like, there isn't that much to talk about, just "I sat in my room or slept all day, went to school and really didn't do anything there", it's not very interesting for others to hear about...
And, I think there are certain things you really have a right to not tell anyone about, no matter how close your friendship is. Not telling isn't exactly lying.

Well I know me and my BF have talked a lot about different things we did as children. And like I've had even casual friends talk about being in the girl scouts or being a brownie or other childhood stories. I was in the boy scouts and enjoyed going camping etc. I guess then I should never be able to share that experience with my life partner? Maybe some people had a very boring childhood and there isn't anything to talk about. And for me being able to share my childhood or things I did as a young adult with my life partner is important. Many of these things would out me as they are thing women rarely would do. You put too many check marks in those boxes and "questions are raised".

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MariaMx

Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 02:12:15 PM
interesting.

you are using the same "suppression technique" you accused me of doing.

You should take the time to read my entire post (like I did with 0_0)
Err, no. I merely pointed it out. You quote mined her for a cheap shot.
"Of course!"
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Annah

Quote from: MariaMx on December 27, 2012, 02:23:42 PM
Err, no. I merely pointed it out. You quote mined her for a cheap shot.

err no. As I said in my first response to you, reread my entire post before you used this cheap "suppression" thing against me.
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