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Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

Started by Carlita, December 18, 2012, 04:10:41 AM

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O_O

Quote from: mintra on December 27, 2012, 10:23:44 AM
O_O, you were significantly misinformed during your short stay there. Being trans is never considered lucky in Thai culture. Just wanted to correct you on that particular statement. I don't want to steer off topic so please continue further with the discussion on being one of the girls.


I just know what Thai people and a woman (who transitioned) who has been living in Thailand for seven years told me.  Perhaps you weren't just trying to take a dig at me.  Perhaps you misunderstood me or perhaps I didn't state the situation clearly enough for you.  Trans people (according to what I was told) are considered lucky, not in that they are lucky to be trans, rather because they bring good luck to the people around them. 

Maybe you live in Thailand and are your own personal expert on this issue.  I am not claiming to be an expert, I am just sharing what I was told, okay?  I do find it interesting that you are able to speak for all Thai people and that every Thai person agrees with you because in the USA people have trouble agreeing on anything let alone so unanimously.

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O_O

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 27, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
To me, not being honest about yourself just screams insecurity.


Nice of you to decide for people who transition what "honesty" is.

So what are we really Alainaluvsu if just being our target sex after transition is dishonest?

Please, say what you really mean.

I know this may be difficult to imagine but people in different situations tend to have different ideas about things.  And rabid psychological projection is real and I am seeing a lot of it in this thread.
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 02:02:19 AM
So what are we really Alainaluvsu if just being our target sex after transition is dishonest?

Please, say what you really mean.

I know this may be difficult to imagine but people in different situations tend to have different ideas about things.  And psychological projection is real and I am seeing a lot of it in the things you say.

We are transsexual, silly. It's a condition where our brains don't match our body. Most (if not all) of us spent a significant portion of our lives living as the opposite sex. ALL of us were born with the wrong genitalia, and for many men seeking women only - that is not okay with them.

That's what I really mean. Not too sure why you do not understand that... or care for the people you date enough to make sure they respect the situation they are investing their love in.

BTW, "just being our target sex after transition is dishonest?" isn't what I meant. Don't go twisting my words around like you accuse Annah of doing. If so, all of us that have transitioned are dishonest, including me. I understand my history is of nobodies concern 95% of the time, but when I know it could concern somebody I care about - yeah you're damn right I'll be upfront about my past.

Didn't I say that somewhere and you decided to leave that out?
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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O_O

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 28, 2012, 02:10:35 AM
We are transsexual, silly. It's a condition where our brains don't match our body. Most (if not all) of us spent a significant portion of our lives living as the opposite sex. ALL of us were born with the wrong genitalia, and for many men seeking women only - that is not okay with them.

That's what I really mean. Not too sure why you do not understand that... or care for the people you date enough to make sure they respect the situation they are investing their love in.


So you are saying that Trans is for life. 

Do you feel that referring to me as "silly" adds validity to what you say?

People who are actively transitioning often identify as trans.  Believe it or not some people who finish transition actually identify as male and female and find that the trans label causes other people to be less able to relate to them.  It may seem "silly" to you but not everyone identifies as trans.  And to have you say that we have to identify as trans for life in order to be "honest" goes beyond simple rudeness and ventures into hostility.
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O_O

Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 02:12:15 PM
interesting.

you are using the same "suppression technique" you accused me of doing.

You should take the time to read my entire post (like I did with 0_0)

LOL !

Yes, you actually made me laugh out loud ^_^ .
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 02:18:51 AM

So you are saying that Trans is for life. 

People who are actively transitioning often identify as trans.  Believe it or not some people who finish transition actually identify as male and female and find that the trans label causes other people to be less able to relate to them.  It may seem "silly" to you but not everyone identifies as trans.  And to have you say that we have to identify as trans for life in order to be "honest" goes beyond simple rudeness and ventures into hostility.

Well I guess I just disagree with that. Trans is another word for change. So to say you're transsexual, it means you intend to, are in the process of, or have changed your gender / sex at some point in your life. I'll end what you call "projecting" right now and just flat out say it. Yup, you're trans for life. How incredibly hostile of me. I guess I'm such a horrible human being.

But I don't hide what I have been or lie to to people I love (or may potentially love) that may actually be completely disgusted with me otherwise. I do have some sensitivity to how the outside world views us. Maybe that makes me a horrible human being too.

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 02:18:51 AM
Do you feel that referring to me as "silly" adds validity to what you say?

No. lol. Wow you're testy now!!! Lighten the flip up :P
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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O_O

Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 02:27:28 PM
exactly,

When transwomen hide this from their partners then they hide SO MUCH more.

They have to hide their families, their entire lives prior to transition, their friends. Everything.

That's not a relationship. That's employment level B-3 and above at the Central Intelligence Agency.


You assume that everyone who transitions is close to their "family" and that because they are so close to their family they have to hide their family O_o .  Not everyone is close to or even maintains contact with their family, in fact some people are shunned by their families for transitioning in the first place. Have you ever seen someone hide their family?  Hey look, I just hid my family (not really). Also some people for one reason or another don't have families, whether they were orphans, grew up in a foster home. Maybe a deadbeat father and a drug addict mother, not everyone experiences life as you have so your blanket statements and assumptions don't always apply to everyone.  Not realizing this is called psychological projection.

QuoteWhen transwomen hide this from their partners then they hide SO MUCH more.

Oh really?  How much more Annah?  YOu used caps so it must be a lot huh?  You are making assumptions and blanket statements.

Quote
They have to hide their families, their entire lives prior to transition, their friends. Everything.

I've never seen anyone hide their entire life before transition Annah.  How do they do it, do they spray paint their entire life black or do they cover it with camo netting? Are mirrors involved or maybe state-of-the-art technology?  You make statements that sound good on the surface (for the sake of argument) but your statements are all based upon assumptions and some of your assumptions sound preposterous.  Really, people hide their entire lives?  Is that how it works Annah?  Or are you misrepresenting what actually happens?  Does a person's "entire past life" actually need to be hidden or do people get a new driver's license with a new name and a new gender on it?  Where is this HUGE hidden life you talk about?

I found that as I transitioned I let go of things that no longer served me.  I didn't "hide" anything.  I have always been female (had the seed or essence of female planted in me) so I am just me.  Transition was a way to finally be me.  The past was a sham, a bad place where I tried to fit in but never did.  I don't have friends from the past.  I had to save myself before I was able to form meaningful friendships.  Contrary to your assertions I am not hiding anything.  I am having a terrible time attempting to relate to you Annah, or the things you say.  It is like we are two very different people.  I find honesty in being who I am and you find honesty in the past and in confessions and not allowing people to think you are a Cis female.

I get it Annah, I felt the same way when I was early in transition.  Now that I have been done with transition for some time I don't experience life as trans.  I don't find my truth in the past.  I don't find relevance in the past, rather I have made a life for myself as a female.  When I look back I see a history of having been female.  I had SRS in 2004.  Given time you may get over being trans too, anything is possible.
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O_O

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 28, 2012, 02:28:00 AM

No. lol. Wow you're testy now!!! Lighten the flip up :P


Pointing me out as being "testy" and "silly" is a way to drag me through the mud.

Except saying it doesn't make it true and having to resort to such things is lame.

http://www.memes.at/faces/troll_face.jpg
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O_O

What Annah said I said
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 11:40:59 AM
QuoteHowever I don't have a problem with lying.
I noticed lol

What I actually said...
Quote
However I don't have a problem with lying.  There have been times I lied to people to save my ass. I never lied to create a false image or to make myself feel good.  Stupid lying is stupid.  Women who transition seldom ever have to lie if they believe they have always been female.  And lying by omission is only lying to people who object to you getting away with it.  Refer to Ferris Bueller's day off, too many people are too much like Ferris Bueller's sister and need to get over themselves. 

Quote
Fallacy of quoting out of context
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.[1]

Arguments based on this fallacy typically take two forms. As a straw man argument, which is frequently found in politics, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute. As an appeal to authority, it involves quoting an authority on the subject out of context, in order to misrepresent that authority as supporting some position.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

I mention the Logical Fallacy because it is a recurring theme in this thread, along with psychological projection.

QuotePsychological projection
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1]

Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.

An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another person or object.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
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O_O

Often times transitioning people feel like they have to tell other transitioning and transitioned people how they must live their lives.  Their favorite assertion seems to be telling transitioning and transitioned people that they can never be in a meaningful or honest relationship without confessing teh tranz. 

I have never told anyone what they must or must not do.  I haven't told anyone to do anything.

The only thing I have done is share my own experience and to try to let people know that they don't have to obey these trans people who are telling them what they have to do.  There is an alternative.  That is all I have ever said.  I never told anyone what was right or what was wrong, I have told people what was right for me and why.  And for this I am opposed and taken out of context.

So if this is about being right on the Internet and if you must be right then fine, just be right.  But you don't have to prove I am wrong because I never said what was right, I only said what was and is right for me.  And I think that telling people they have to confess to a partner that they are trans is wrong.  I think telling anyone what they have to do is wrong.

If you have to prove me wrong to be right then that says more about you than me.





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O_O

QuoteI'm still wondering why it's so important to tell people you're trans. Is anyone going to get hurt? Are you ruining somebodies life? Is being trans a horrible crime and disease that everyone needs to know about?
Yes, telling your partner after you've been together for awhile, and things start getting serious, might be good... But that's beside the point, because it isn't a necessity.



As far as I can tell, trans women who sympathize with non-trans people - who do not consider trans women to be women - and therefore place a lot of importance upon disclosure, tend to do so because they haven't yet accepted themselves as women.  That was my experience early in transition, and I have found it to be a common experience that many transsexual women share.  Whether or not one continues with that mind-set depends a lot upon the individual and her experiences during and after transition.  I have found this to be true for me and others have shared this experience with me, having experienced it for themselves. Motivation seems to come from lack of acceptance and fear or "If I can't do it, you sure as Hell aren't going to do it." 

As far as I can tell people tend to moralize based upon the supposition that trans women will always be different from so-called "real" women.  What (in my opinion) these well-meaning moralists don't realize is that woman is not a thing, she is an experience and no amount of posting will ever change their minds (as far as I can tell).  Some people will deny themselves an experience because they don't believe in it or they believe it is wrong, they create their own "reality" in this way and they mine for data that substantiates their opinion or belief.  In my experience it is like choosing to remain in The Matrix because it is safe and certain and fear is a powerful demotivator.

And for some people being openly trans is what works best for them and no experience is more right but one experience works better (for me).  The ego is ideas about one's self. Ideas of one's self are formed out of experiences.  Our dominant experiences make us who we are and become our truth, our "reality".  The experiences we have are just as powerful as the experiences we do not have, in that what we never experience will never change us.

Also being trans is a big deal to people who are transitioning.

Being trans is less of a deal, the farther you go after transition.

But I am repeating myself for a couple of people who haven't processed anything I have said and now I am beginning to feel a bit idiotic.

Also my experience was the experience of a transsexual woman and I transitioned to experience a female life replete with female life experiences incorporating body, mind and socialization.  I am not bigender and I don't identify as transgender so my experience and my needs are not the same as everyone else and I respect that.  That is why I have never told anyone what they should or should not do and that is why I never say what is right or wrong unless I am talking specifically about my own needs or about what I consider to be petty tyrants wanting to govern my life and the lives of others.  As someone else stated, "We have lived under the rule of others for too long and transition is about personal freedom and doing what is right for you."  Or something like that.

Cheers
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Carlita

Uhh ... did I post a thread that said: 'Should we tell our partners that we're trans?" No ... I posted a thread about an issue that matters an awful lot to me and as much as the male part of me is delighted to have had thousands of views and 10 pages of replies, the part that just wants to know about interacting as a woman with other women is feeling frustrated and a little bit put out ...

But for what it's worth ...

I think O_O has a very valid point when she says that there is a difference between the fact that people accept you and the way that they experience being with you. if a really close friend that you thought was straight tells you that he's gay, you'd still accept him, and like him and take his side (at least, I damn well hope anyone on here would), but you couldn't help but see him and think of him in a slightly different way. Not necessarily worse: but difference. You've had a significant piece of new data and it's bound to have an effect.

Ironically, the very people who are attacking O_O for her view that it's not necessary to tell partners that one is trans are implicitly accepting that the information changes the way that the other person in the relationship might experience them. Clearly, if it made no difference whether or not anyone knew you had once been male, it would not be necessary to say so. But precisely because it DOES make a difference, then you either say, 'It's only right and fair and honest, for everyone's sake, to be explicit about being trans as early as possible in any serious - or potentially serious - relationship. Or you say: 'You know, I don't want him to think of me as a transsexual, because I know it will change things. I want him to treat me and love me and ->-bleeped-<- me like a woman. So I'm going to stay a 'normal' woman in his eyes if I possibly can.

Personally, I think either choice is valid. If there's one thing I've learned about relationships - ones own and other people's - it's that generalisations, rules and value judgements are pretty much irrelevant. Every single relationship is different and has its own rules and it is entirely up to the people in that relationship to conduct it as they see fit and either reap the rewards or suffer the consequences. And there's no damn point anyone else sticking their noses in.

On the question of transitioning at six. No, no one has completely transitioned at that age yet. But yes, kids that young certainly are being diagnosed with GID, allowed to live in their chosen gender, rather than their assigned one, and are later given puberty-blocking drugs so that they have not suffered from the physical changes that would occur if they allowed their birth gender to take its course. In the UK there is at least one post-operative MTF who had SRS at 16, and the trend is towards recognising gender identity issues as early as possible. Of course, doctors still have to wait until the patient is ol enough to be able to make an informed decision about whether to transition. But the road that leads to transition can certainly start as young as six.

And now, CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON-TOPIC???

I dream of a day when I can go shopping with a girlfriend, have lunch together and just be her girlfriend too ... I'd love to go to a Pilates class and have the other women treat me exactly the same way (good or bad) as they would any of the other women there ... I want to be able to join my village's all-female book club (or one like it in another town or village), go on a girls' holiday ... bump into another woman in the street or at the store and go off for a cup of coffee and a gossip together.

And all I ever wanted to know from this thread is: can my dreams ever possibly come true?
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mintra

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 01:56:32 AM

I just know what Thai people and a woman (who transitioned) who has been living in Thailand for seven years told me. 

Either the woman lied to you or she had no idea what she was talking about. Living there 7 years is more or less a visitor, hon.

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 01:56:32 AM

Perhaps you misunderstood me or perhaps I didn't state the situation clearly enough for you. Trans people (according to what I was told) are considered lucky, not in that they are lucky to be trans, rather because they bring good luck to the people around them. 

I'm clear on that O_O. Transexual are never considered a good luck charm. You were misinformed BIG TIME. I'm just trying to correct you here.

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 01:56:32 AM

Maybe you live in Thailand and are your own personal expert on this issue.


I was born and raised there until I moved to US in my 20's my dear. I still have friends and family members there. I am the expert on my culture, my heritage. You are never gonna win if you continue to argue with me on my culture.

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 01:56:32 AM

I am not claiming to be an expert, I am just sharing what I was told, okay?


I know you are not an expert otherwise you would know better. What you shared was wrong. I was just trying to correct you so other Susans Member would know the fact. No need to be offensive.

Quote from: O_O on December 28, 2012, 01:56:32 AM

I do find it interesting that you are able to speak for all Thai people and that every Thai person agrees with you because in the USA people have trouble agreeing on anything let alone so unanimously.


If you have no idea, Thailand is smaller than Texas. There maybe some cultural diversity on different regions but overall we are not as diverse compared to USA.

I know what I'm talking about here darling. You can go to the nearest Thai restaurants if there is one in your area and ask people there if being 'Katoey' brings good luck to people around them and 100% of them would scratch their heads.


Now I'm beginning to think that you just make stuff up and presented it as a fact to support your argument on being stealth. I would make a fool out of myself if I'm trying to argue with an Italian about their pizza, don't you think?

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BunnyBee

I will happen, Carlita.  If you live your life as a woman, and you don't put out man vibes, people will see you as a woman.  That is not always true when the people in question know about your past, especially in some small towns, certainly villages, but if where you live makes it impossible, hopefully you have enough freedom to move somewhere else.
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Carlita

Thank you Jen and TessaM!!

And yes, Tessa, you're right that I haven't yet started transition - still trying to find a way of resolving the conflict between my longing to transition and my responsibilities towards (and deep love for) the family I've created as a man. But I've never had any trouble getting on with girls or women as a man ... I just want to keep it that way as a woman!
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 04:44:48 AM
Since your body has been corrected... Are you really a transsexual?
I do understand that you don't regard yourself as a woman... But I don't think everyone who's been trans should still consider themselves as transsexuals, not the real thing.

I think disconnection from self is quite common for trans people, since nothing they do have any value in their life at all. Time spent when you're basically living because you have to is hard to remember, and it's really hard to make attachment to anyone.

If you don't regard yourself as a woman, and tell everyone about your past, I think it's hard to just be "one of the girls"... Because well... Since you don't see yourself as that, how could they?

I'm still wondering why it's so important to tell people you're trans. Is anyone going to get hurt? Are you ruining somebodies life? Is being trans a horrible crime and disease that everyone needs to know about?
Yes, telling your partner after you've been together for awhile, and things start getting serious, might be good... But that's beside the point, because it isn't a necessity.

I regard myself as a woman. I'm no less a woman than anybody else in here or any cis girl out there. Are you trying to say that those of us pre op or non op are less of, or are simply not a woman? Yeah, I'm trans. So are you. Big deal. It's not a big deal, as you say - so why are you so adamant about dropping the prefix and worried that people might see you as trans? Are you ashamed of it?

I'd also like to point out (again) that I don't go around telling everyone I meet that I'm trans. I'm actually quite stealth. Not even my employer knows that I'm trans (unless they paid attention to my drivers license when they scanned it into their system). But I think out of respect of peoples beliefs or how they perceive their sexual identity (and for my own personal safety), it's important that I tell people that want to be romantically involved with me. I was expressing that to everybody in this thread. But a few of the people in this thread do not care how being involved with us sexually may not agree with their interest if they knew the truth. Sad if you ask me how people can be so reckless.

Also, I think it's a shame that you would try to put words in my mouth that I obviously did not say. You made it sound like we need to disclose it to EVERYBODY. IDC what you tell everybody... but I do think it's absolutely wrong to not tell somebody you're prepared to enter into a long term relationship with. Like I said (for the 3rd time), they may have reasons that they are absolutely against it for THEM to sleep around with a transsexual - pre or post op.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Stephe

Quote from: TessaM on December 27, 2012, 08:27:18 PM
Im not quite sure what your trying to say here, I really don't want to come off as stupid or rude but were you calling me a moron?  I don't quite understand what you mean by claiming to have had a childhood of a boy (I suppose I agree because I do not believe I had a boys childhood since...I AM A GIRL!)

I dont think anyone should be stealth BECAUSE the future where everyone is completely accepted will come sooner rather than later, but to each their own.

I'm saying I would be a moron if I thought someone whom completely was transitioned at the age of 6 would have enough of their childhood affected by the being trans.

My -point- is, this argument is simply moot given A: no one in this thread was completely transitioned at the age of 6 and B: At this point in time, the number of stealth living adults who transitioned at the age of 6 is likely around 0.001%.

And while your internal gender was that of a girl, did you appear a girl and did society address you as "her" etc though your childhood? Were you treated as a girl? People who had a childhood as a girl were.  Even just being aware of having a gender conflict is a different life experience than non-trans people have.
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Annah

Quote from: TessaM on December 28, 2012, 07:16:02 AM
I completely disagree with you here, Annah. If Jazz is living full time as female at the age of 6 then she DID transition. Here we now have an example of someone who transitioned at the age of 6.

I am 20 years old right now, and I have still not had my surgery (I sent in my application to my healthcare provider I should get an answer back in 3-4 months as to whether or not I am covered im sure I will be) so hopefully i'll get SRS this summer, at the age of 21. MY NAME IS NOT YET LEGALLY CHANGED EITHER. Have I thus not transitioned, in your opinion?

Also, I wasn't "experimenting" with myself I knew I was a girl and what being trans was all about at age 4. Taking those pills at 19 was the beggining of my transition. Also never leaving the house without makeup, girly clothing, id say at WORST I presented as "androgenous."

you can disagree with me all you want but if Jazzy herself told me she is nowhere near fully transitioned then I will take her word for it over your word of what you think Jazzy feels.
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Stephe

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 04:44:48 AM
Since stephe mentioned that barely anybody transitioned at 19,

Uh no I didn't. Someone keeps brings up this "what about the people who have transitioned at age 6". THAT is what I said hasn't happened. I said absolutely nothing about late teens. At that point you have lived 20 years of your developing life being treated and seen as a guy.

Maybe today some children are being allowed to grow up as their correct gender but those people are not adults yet living stealth and lying to their life partners about their past. And I have a feeling those kids won't be ashamed of their past and feel any need to cover anything up. The percentage of adults living stealth today who were fully transitioned world wide can't be more than 0.001%. Even bringing that point up is more gender theory trying to make excuses for their behavior.
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Stephe

Quote from: TessaM on December 28, 2012, 07:16:02 AM
I completely disagree with you here, Annah. If Jazz is living full time as female at the age of 6 then she DID transition. Here we now have an example of someone who transitioned at the age of 6.

OK so is Jazz an adult, living 100% total stealth lying to her life partner about her past?  Please lets see this large group of adult stealth people who transitioned at this age you guys kept bringing up.
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