Yeson voice feminization surgery

[AlexD]

Oh that is a bit sad to hear, Jenny, that singing is now harder? How so?

Amy Berlin may know best about singing and this surgery. She also had less stitches to not get the full increase in pitch, although it had different reasons. I guess that of course you will loose something at the lower end but not gain as much on the upper end. I am not sure what you think you would gain from this surgery. I have done a vocal analysis some times and I came out at a range that is over 3 octaves. I dont expect the upper range to shift at all if I go for this surgery, if anything then it will drop and has to be regained by training. but at the low end some part would be missing - not a big loss for me, but for a singer who wants to go for the whole spectrum... I know a trans woman who is a singer. She said she doe snot want a surgery because she likes to use the full range for performances - going down deep and all the way up.

Anjaq, thank you for your comment!
Yea, I think I understand what you talking about. As for me, I am not afraid to loose at the low-end. I have the full bass octave (c2-c3), and I use it rarely. It would be OK for me to have at least B2 - B4 range. Besides, there are different vocal techniques to produce higher notes (very few male singers produce high Tenor C with full voice). But it's really bad to have for example B2 - F4 natural range because of the surgery. But why it can happen? Disproportional reducing of length and size? Interesting aspect, especially for "singing" patients.

[Jennygirl]

Yes it is harder to sing, I don't have as much range as I once did. But I still can, and on pitch too. It's just range.

I never practice singing btw, I imagine if I did I would be much better at it. Even before the surgery my singing voice had nearly gone to crap from getting out of practice. So I guess I don't honestly know how to correlate that with the surgery itself- but it does seem a little bit harder and not as familiar as it once was. Like I said, I think practice would help immensely but it's just not a personal priority.

So don't get all sad on me I have a feeling Amy will do much better in the singing arena post-op

[AlexD]

Yes it is harder to sing, I don't have as much range as I once did. But I still can, and on pitch too. It's just range.

I never practice singing btw, I imagine if I did I would be much better at it. Even before the surgery my singing voice had nearly gone to crap from getting out of practice. So I guess I don't honestly know how to correlate that with the surgery itself- but it does seem a little bit harder and not as familiar as it once was. Like I said, I think practice would help immensely but it's just not a personal priority.

So don't get all sad on me I have a feeling Amy will do much better in the singing arena post-op

Hmm.. Am I right that now you are still a bit afraid to push your voice higher with the help of breath support (while singing)? I try not to build illusions, but maybe it's not so familiar cause of the brain habit. I think, it is really necessary to test your voice at least on the basic range to let your brain understand and remember new positions. You know, maybe the alike senses can be felt through using raising-pitch software live with earphones (just thoughts, but maybe It worth testing).

[AshleyL]

So I finally made it to see an SLP.  I have to say my experience was very different from my previous one ~8 years ago.  If I recall correctly, the doctor I saw previously admitted to not having a lot of experience with transgendered individuals and the voice therapy involved.  The specialist I'm seeing now was very open and enthusiastic about helping me with fine tuning my voice to get it to a point where I'm happy with how it sounds and presents.  Overall it was a very positive experience and I'm looking forward to working with her.

However, now it puts me on the fence about having VFS .  While I'm not entirely comfortable with my overall range (average about 170, peaks around 220-230 and lows around 135 Hz) I do realize that a lot of my issues are probably with my overall resonance and personal hangups about how it actually sounds vs what I hear when I speak, though my SLP did say my voice was quite passable.  She actually a bit sneaky and made a couple recordings during our interview so that she could sample my voice while I was speaking naturally in conversation, rather than when I was reading a passage with knowledge about being recorded.

I also directed her to this thread as she did show some interest in this surgery when I told her about it.  Maybe she'll even join in the conversation!  (No pressure if you read this )

I had a question though about the recovery period and voice therapy after the procedure though.  It's been said that Yeson's technique will only raise the pitch, and have no effect on resonance, and that voice therapy is recommended afterwards;  I'm wondering how difficult it was after the procedure?  What did you change about the way you were speaking after the procedure (larynx position, loose jaw, etc) and how did it sound before you incorporated all those techniques?  Was it the same as your old voice but only with a higher pitch?

[Jennygirl]

Hmm.. Am I right that now you are still a bit afraid to push your voice higher with the help of breath support (while singing)? I try not to build illusions, but maybe it's not so familiar cause of the brain habit. I think, it is really necessary to test your voice at least on the basic range to let your brain understand and remember new positions. You know, maybe the alike senses can be felt through using raising-pitch software live with earphones (just thoughts, but maybe It worth testing).

You might be right, but I think physics played a role as well. I have an abnormally large larynx and equally large vocal cords. Dr. Kim said I had one of the largest throat structures he had ever seen. Plus with a vocal tremor (which I also have) it lessens the possibility of high upper notes even more. Training was innately key in my case, but I think it would make training for singing 5X more of a hassle.

Luckily in speech this isn't a problem at all- I just can't screech up to the high notes like a gg can. That is okay with me, all I wanted from this surgery was to gain the ability to raise my pitch involuntarily during speech. Singing would have been a bonus, but it wasn't a dealbreaker.

I hope this info is helpful. I have absolutely gone into total nerd land when it comes to vocal analyzation- using Praat. Haven't ever tried recording myself singing, but then again I don't really sing that much to begin with

[Jennygirl]

I really need to get a wiki going, these questions are just getting asked again and again

[anjaq]

Indeed, I feel with so many experiences from Jenny and the others that now are doing this, it would be great to have some information collection in the Wiki of this site about this. It would be great info for all who will do this.

Luckily in speech this isn't a problem at all- I just can't screech up to the high notes like a gg can. That is okay with me, all I wanted from this surgery was to gain the ability to raise my pitch involuntarily during speech.

But you were not able to hit those high screeches before the surgery neither, or did you?
I checked in an analyzer software, though praat is failing if I try it so I used spectro-gram. If I screech now, I am in the 900 Hz range. Praat seems to loose it if I hit about 700 or so? It then chooses a different band or something. Odd.

So it really is a lot easier or even involuntary now to just raise pitch during speech? It is something I really have to get more relaxed about. My voice therapist this week let me speak the part of a rather annoying farmers wife in a role play. She played the guy part and I was the girl part and had to totally use high pitches in some sentences if possible. It was kind of fun, but she had to say "go higher, dont be so monotonous" a lot. For some reason, if I raise pitch generally (f0) it is a lot easier for me to also go even higher in intonations. If I have my regular lower average pitch to start with, there is a barrier to go very high in speech.

I kind of disappointed my speech doctor last week though. LOL - she kind of expected me to be post op by now and have a chance to look at the result. On the other hand she happily wrote me more therapy on insurance now.

Greetings.

[AlexD]

Indeed, I feel with so many experiences from Jenny and the others that now are doing this, it would be great to have some information collection in the Wiki of this site about this. It would be great info for all who will do this. But you were not able to hit those high screeches before the surgery neither, or did you?
I checked in an analyzer software, though praat is failing if I try it so I used spectro-gram. If I screech now, I am in the 900 Hz range. Praat seems to loose it if I hit about 700 or so? It then chooses a different band or something. Odd.

So it really is a lot easier or even involuntary now to just raise pitch during speech? It is something I really have to get more relaxed about. My voice therapist this week let me speak the part of a rather annoying farmers wife in a role play. She played the guy part and I was the girl part and had to totally use high pitches in some sentences if possible. It was kind of fun, but she had to say "go higher, dont be so monotonous" a lot. For some reason, if I raise pitch generally (f0) it is a lot easier for me to also go even higher in intonations. If I have my regular lower average pitch to start with, there is a barrier to go very high in speech.

I kind of disappointed my speech doctor last week though. LOL - she kind of expected me to be post op by now and have a chance to look at the result. On the other hand she happily wrote me more therapy on insurance now.

Greetings.

But why the problem with range can appear after the the successful surgery? If a surgeon makes your cords just like women's your tessiture would change. And that's all. But maybe there's cut something more, I dunno...

[anjaq]

Sadly they cannot make the vocal chords "just like that of a woman". Basically they create a synchenie of the vocal chords - its a condition that can also occur naturally. So resonance and larynx size and position do not change. Plus the range to the upper end seems to not really depend that much on the vocal chord length. So you can post op not go as low as before but the upper end is more a thing of training. For example I can phonate at a pitch that amazes my voice therapist, she says she can not really go there easily herself. I dont totally believe her about the latter - she wants me to feel special, but I think that there is little point in my ability to phonate in tat range anyways unless I want to sing in some upper soprano range. I am not sure however if that would rather go away and shrink down due to the changes in surgery (there is some damage after all) or if it will actually be easier to phonate there. Reading Jennys post, I get the impression it rather is the former than the latter...

[AlexD]

Sadly they cannot make the vocal chords "just like that of a woman". Basically they create a synchenie of the vocal chords - its a condition that can also occur naturally. So resonance and larynx size and position do not change. Plus the range to the upper end seems to not really depend that much on the vocal chord length. So you can post op not go as low as before but the upper end is more a thing of training. For example I can phonate at a pitch that amazes my voice therapist, she says she can not really go there easily herself. I dont totally believe her about the latter - she wants me to feel special, but I think that there is little point in my ability to phonate in tat range anyways unless I want to sing in some upper soprano range. I am not sure however if that would rather go away and shrink down due to the changes in surgery (there is some damage after all) or if it will actually be easier to phonate there. Reading Jennys post, I get the impression it rather is the former than the latter...

Ok, I understand about the resonance. About upper range: well, I've read about older surgeries, that really cut the range a half shorter, just because they made muscles work only on the needed freq (in that case the upper range for sure stays the same). BTW, in "Yeson" kind of surgery, if I get it right, the cords are just made smaller. 99% you need training to get the maximum of the new cords. Maybe I just really need to talk to Dr. Kim. He know this for sure But the idea stays the same: very high female sopranos have very tiny cords, but that doesn't make their range smaller.

[anjaq]

The length of the vocal chords mostly seems to influence the lower range. even a very high soprano singer will probably not talk in a squeakyvoice but in a normal female range . The ability to go extremely high is to a large degree something to do with practice and motor control. I guess if the surgery would be perfect, it would allow a higher pitch at the upper end and thus less decrease in range but it is not perfect and honestly, comparing Dr Kims result to the ones I know who did a similar procedure with ohter doctors, it is already amazing what he does. The others usually have hoarseness or breahiness in the voice that basically makes singing impossible, they loose a lot of volume and definitely loose some range at the upper end too. So to stay the same at the upper range limit is already an improvement.

I dont know about the volume and screaming, shouting etc - I heard that if you do that, you risk damage - that scared me last week when I read in an article that the sutures "frequently" rip. It was an article made to scare people away from voice surgeries though so I do not give a lot on it. I still wonder how often this can happen and if Dr Kim gives instructions to not shout or scream ?

[AlexD]

The length of the vocal chords mostly seems to influence the lower range. even a very high soprano singer will probably not talk in a squeakyvoice but in a normal female range . The ability to go extremely high is to a large degree something to do with practice and motor control. I guess if the surgery would be perfect, it would allow a higher pitch at the upper end and thus less decrease in range but it is not perfect and honestly, comparing Dr Kims result to the ones I know who did a similar procedure with ohter doctors, it is already amazing what he does. The others usually have hoarseness or breahiness in the voice that basically makes singing impossible, they loose a lot of volume and definitely loose some range at the upper end too. So to stay the same at the upper range limit is already an improvement.

I dont know about the volume and screaming, shouting etc - I heard that if you do that, you risk damage - that scared me last week when I read in an article that the sutures "frequently" rip. It was an article made to scare people away from voice surgeries though so I do not give a lot on it. I still wonder how often this can happen and if Dr Kim gives instructions to not shout or scream ?

It's sad that many clinics do this surgery so bad. I didn't know really. I live in Russia, and there is a respected voice center in Moscow. They also doing Yeson's method.
Hmm.. I remember there was a graphic table of Jenny's range results. BTW they were very good: About G5 at the upper end. I am still interested if the results are the same. There's was also another person in this thread who marked increase in her high notes. Actually, it gives hope.

[Jennygirl]

Yes I think upper range has to do with luck, if you are able to use the vocal cords efficiently and succinctly. In my case, I had a lack of upper range post op and it increased a little bit post op. But, mind you, I had also become very active about training my voice- so that may have played a rather large part?

Either way, I think there is always the risk that you could lose a bit of range. It is something you will have to decide if the surgery is right for you. As Anja said and it's been said almost a hundred times, this surgery does not modify the underlying structures to the vocal chamber and can't be expected to be "perfect" in any way. It is just probably the best available option at this moment in time. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years they will be able to implant a full DNA compatible larynx complete with vocal cords, but until then it seems like this is what we have to work with. The key is remembering that it does take training and is not a cure-all. It CAN be a cure-all, though, with what it opens up as far as involuntary fundamental frequency. That was exactly what I knew I needed, and that's why I was so confident going into it (and probably why I had a great result, too). I didn't expect too much from it

[AshleyL]

I really need to get a wiki going, these questions are just getting asked again and again

Hi, sorry for inundating you with questions that had already been answered.  Reading back through the thread again I saw that you had actually posted several recordings of yourself back in the early stages of your recovery.  Sadly, I found this thread too late, and most of the earlier vocaroo recordings have expired and are no longer available.  It's too bad - I was really interested in hearing what your earlier results sounded like.  I'll try to be more diligent about reading through the entire thread before posting more questions.  A wiki sounds like it would be awesome though!

[Jennygirl]

It's okay to ask, luckily there are others now who are able to help answer the questions

I just say we need to get a wiki going because it is getting repetitive, not because I'm getting annoyed or something. I would be a time saver for everyone as I think it's very hard for someone to go back through and read a 50 page thread! Yipes!

Luckily I saved all of the recordings locally before uploading to vocaroo! I will try to remember to upload those again for you from my own personal webspace that will never expire. Or I guess I could do soundcloud

[Livvykins]

Hi Jenny!

It's a been a long time since your surgery so you're probably very bored of answering questions on this subject, but...

I'd just like to say a massive massive massive thank you to you for creating this thread and introducing so many of us to Yeson!!!

I had always ruled out VFS as the procedures sounded horrific and the results I had heard were even worse... For the three years of my transition I had been concentrating on other surgeries (FFS/GRS etc...) but no matter how well I passed visually it was always ruined when I spoke.  This has had the effect of making me more and more introverted and silent in public.  And when I do speak it's very quietly Like you, no matter how good my practised voice got in private, I've always found it impossible to do in front of people... especially friends!  It's so ridiculous to get stage fright about my voice when friends have seen me through so many other changes and have always been supportive!  Being introduced as Olivia on work conference calls but not having a female voice has always been a massive stress to me.  I have tried using a female voice on calls but as soon as I have to concentrate on the subject of the call my voice ends up slipping back down...

Early this year, while I was in Marbella having some FFS revisions, my surgeon mentioned that he met Dr Kim at WPATH in Thailand and that it was certainly worth looking into VFS with Yeson. I googled Yeson when I got home and I saw your 2 month video and started reading this post.  I was completely blown away that a procedure like this existed that gave such great results and had so few if any risks!

I emailed Yeson and spoke with Jessie (who is SO lovely!) and booked surgery shortly after   It had to wait a little while as I was a few weeks away from GRS... and then I had to wait 2 months after that before I was allowed further surgery... Boo! Strangely a friend of mine (who I hadn't spoken to about it at the time) had already booked her surgery with Yeson for when I was having my GRS and had booked her GRS for when I had my surgery with Yeson. It's been lovely that we have been able to chat to each other while we were both going through surgeries that the other had just been through!

Anyway... I returned from an AMAZING trip to Seoul late last week   Seoul was one of the nicest places that I have been to, so friendly and the shopping (especially cosmetics) was to die for! 



The pre-op went well, the tests they run are extensive to say the least (It's so weird to see videos of your vocal chords!) Some of the tests are a little uncomfortable to do, especially the one that you have to make noises when you have a camera down your throat... it's almost impossible not to gag!  Dr Kim went through all of the test results and seemed happy that I'd have a good result.  My starting pitches were 143hz when speaking normally and 165hz when making an effort (although I think I was a bit shy and could have done much better...)

The surgery itself was pretty painless in general... Waking up from the anaesthetic was pretty unpleasant as I couldn't breathe properly, had a MASSIVE tongue, bad headache and very sore throat.  This only lasted a few hours though... as soon as I was allowed some water and food I started feeling much better

I was SO nervous at the post op exam... I was really worried that somehow I would have damaged the op site (Apparently I made a noise while I was asleep one night that sounded like a dolphin!) and that it would all be ruined.  Luckily all was good and Dr Kim said I was healing perfectly! The little noise he makes you make while checking your new folds does indeed sound like a high pitched zombie!  I had to have the Botox injection as well as I had some tremor... I was sure this was going to hurt like crazy, but I barely felt it. After that I went through the voice exercises with Jessie and another nurse... this was fairly hysterical as I really struggled to do the lip trills (I think it's because of my FFS lip lift) and could only make a farting noise for ages.  We were all laughing (me silently of course) hopefully I'll be able to do them when it comes to it after two months!



The staff at Yeson were so lovely, Jessie was a complete sweetie (I'll certainly be keeping in touch and visiting her sometime) Dr Kim was such a lovely, understanding and patient surgeon who went all out to explain everything in great detail. I also have to say my nurse was amazing as well, such a friendly, smiley, bubbly girl (she reminded me a bit of nurse Joy from Pokemon...)

So I'm now 12 days post op... I noticed that you posted a sample of yourself here after 11 days, but it's expired   Is there any way you could repost the couple of very early samples you posted? Or if not post on here, message them to me?  I risked couple of words today, and sampled as you did "hello I'm Olivia" into Praat.  I was a little surprised to see an average pitch of 231hz...  a gain of 88hz in 11 days... erm what?!  I'm not sure if I was straining to make that sound of not... it was pretty hard to get anything out tbh... And I sounded a bit like a cartoon character that's been punched in the neck... is this normal?! I've had no pain post-op really and hardly any of the mucus that other people have complained about.  I've been drinking a ton of aloe gel which might have helped.



All in all I couldn't recommend Yeson more highly. If anyone is considering any vocal fem surgery that is not Yeson, please stop!

I'll stop waffling now...

Thank you so so so much again for making such a huge difference to my life Jenny! Had you not posted about Yeson and made those YouTube videos, I would not have had this surgery, hopefully be well on the way to passing completely, getting all of my confidence back and being a very happy bunny!

Loves



Liv xxx

[Nero]

Wow, what is that? Your throat?

[Livvykins]

Wow, what is that? Your throat?

Haha, it sure is!  What else could it possibly be?!

Check out the little blue stitches where my vocal folds were made shorter... so clever! 

[Nero]

Wow, what is that? Your throat?

Haha, it sure is!  What else could it possibly be?!

Check out the little blue stitches where my vocal folds were made shorter... so clever! 

Can't tell the stitches. What side are they on? It looks like they made the opening bigger. Or is that just you contracting it in the first one? What did they actually do? Remove something?

Sorry lol. Never really gave much thought to vocal surgery as I'm ftm, but that picture is just fascinating!

[Livvykins]

Haha, it sure is!  What else could it possibly be?!

Check out the little blue stitches where my vocal folds were made shorter... so clever! 


Can't tell the stitches. What side are they on? It looks like they made the opening bigger. Or is that just you contracting it in the first one? What did they actually do? Remove something?

Sorry lol. Never really gave much thought to vocal surgery as I'm ftm, but that picture is just fascinating!

I find these things fascinating as well, I'm not squeamish at all:)

So basically that first picture (top left) is me making a high pitch sound (the noise sounded not unlike a manatee or other sea mammal)  if you look at the at the rest of the pics, my vocal folds used to go down all the way to the bottom of that outside V, but now have two very small stitches in to make them shorter. The shorter and thiner the folds are, the higher the vocal pitch you produce

Most other vocal surgeries techniques that are done involve fairly horrific remodelling of voice box... Which carry a long list of potential side effects, and is why I had never considered it until I read this post. This is a revolutionary new endoscopic technique that carries little if no risk! It takes away the hardest bit of feminising your voice which is maintaining a higher pitch. The other element which is the resonance is a fairly easy thing to learn.