Yeson voice feminization surgery

[kwala]

You can tell Dr Kim to limit the increase. He can shorten the vocal folds by only 30% or by up to 50% - However, their analysis of the voice is more comprehensive than what one can do at home with praat , I think, so it can be that something else will come out. Dr Kim definitely does not want anyone to leave there with a voice that is too high. He sent back some people who had already female range voices because it would have gotten them into the 260Hz+ range and he also takes into account your body size - a very big woman with a tiny high pitched voice is odd, so he is open to all kinds of concerns.

My feeling from the little experience I have now is that pitch increase is not as dramatic by "force", but it is easier to use higher pitches. I guess if I want, I can later on easily speak at 230 Hz, but probably I will rather use a 180 Hz range (started at 134 according to Dr Kim). But we'll see. A lot of the perception about pitch in the ear of the listener ist also timbre. If I talk at the same pitch (according to PRAAT) now compared to pre-op, it still sounds higher pitched becauser the low undertones are gone.

I think Dr Kim really is an artist, he will know what to do and answer all your questions and adress all your concerns. I have not yet met any doctor in my country who tool as much time to listen to me and my concerns and then actually adress all of them. I think you can trust him

Anja, I think you are right on the money about timbre and its effect on perceived pitch.  When you hear a single note, you may think that note is all you're hearing, but as you pointed out, there is actually a series of overtones and undertones that accompany it and change the sound color.  If a genetic male and a genetic female sing the same pitch, most untrained ears will automatically assume that the female pitch is higher.  I think being aware of this is going to help you greatly in finding the voice that is perfect for you. 

People say that these surgeries do not affect timbre or resonance, just pitch.  But to some degree, they simply must.  Changing the vibrating mass in terms of size and shape will have an effect on ANY instrument in regards to the overtone series.  It may be slight, but it will occur. I think they use the pitch only explanation because voice therapy is incredibly helpful and they wouldn't want any patients to think that this surgery is a quick fix without any work on your part post-op.  You still have to do exercises and in many cases seek out a voice therapist to get the best possible result.

[Teslagirl]

Anja, I think you are right on the money about timbre and its effect on perceived pitch.  When you hear a single note, you may think that note is all you're hearing, but as you pointed out, there is actually a series of overtones and undertones that accompany it and change the sound color.  If a genetic male and a genetic female sing the same pitch, most untrained ears will automatically assume that the female pitch is higher.  I think being aware of this is going to help you greatly in finding the voice that is perfect for you. 

People say that these surgeries do not affect timbre or resonance, just pitch.  But to some degree, they simply must.  Changing the vibrating mass in terms of size and shape will have an effect on ANY instrument in regards to the overtone series.  It may be slight, but it will occur. I think they use the pitch only explanation because voice therapy is incredibly helpful and they wouldn't want any patients to think that this surgery is a quick fix without any work on your part post-op.  You still have to do exercises and in many cases seek out a voice therapist to get the best possible result.

Can I say how useful all these discussions are? I think we're operating at a much higher level of understanding now than when Jenny started this thread about Yeson. In particular the idea of complex undertones lending a male sound even when the fundamental frequency is in the female range is quite convincing to me. So even when Dr Kim doesn't achieve much of a pitch elevation, voices still sound more female, and I've noticed they're 'purer' somehow. It's very interesting and hopeful for me.

[Teslagirl]

You can tell Dr Kim to limit the increase. He can shorten the vocal folds by only 30% or by up to 50% - However, their analysis of the voice is more comprehensive than what one can do at home with praat , I think, so it can be that something else will come out. Dr Kim definitely does not want anyone to leave there with a voice that is too high. He sent back some people who had already female range voices because it would have gotten them into the 260Hz+ range and he also takes into account your body size - a very big woman with a tiny high pitched voice is odd, so he is open to all kinds of concerns.

My feeling from the little experience I have now is that pitch increase is not as dramatic by "force", but it is easier to use higher pitches. I guess if I want, I can later on easily speak at 230 Hz, but probably I will rather use a 180 Hz range (started at 134 according to Dr Kim). But we'll see. A lot of the perception about pitch in the ear of the listener ist also timbre. If I talk at the same pitch (according to PRAAT) now compared to pre-op, it still sounds higher pitched becauser the low undertones are gone.

I think Dr Kim really is an artist, he will know what to do and answer all your questions and adress all your concerns. I have not yet met any doctor in my country who tool as much time to listen to me and my concerns and then actually adress all of them. I think you can trust him

Hi Anja.

You said Dr Kim is open to a discussion on the degree to which he will reduce the fold length. What percentage did he reduce your own vocal chord length?

I know you're a teacher like me and will need to project to a class. Do you know how long it will take from the date of surgery to the time when you're fully able to do that? And sing as well!

Best wishes as always, Sarah.
(And woo-hoo! I'm no longer a Newbie! 52 posts!)

[anjaq]

Sarah,
In my case he did 40%. Apparently that was needed because he had to correct the asymmetry I had as well. I know that most rooms have microphones and I am prepared to use them for a while at least. I expect some loss in volume even in the final result, but thats ok in a way. The reason for that is that my volume goes up with pitch - higher pitch - more loudness. So a loss in volume at the same pitch is probably partly compensated by the higher pitch - But thats a wild guess. In reality, I am willing to pay the price and loose some percent in volume for a better voice. How much is lost - only the long-timers can tell you, but they are rather quiet these days.

I cannot yet say how long until the voice is loud enough to speak in front of a class without a microphone. I kind of hope that in June it will be ok enough, since I have a 150 minute lecture then. Right now - I am not even close to begin to think about it. I am 6 weeks post op now and just having a weekend with friends and doing some chatting led to a sore throat on Monday. I would probably not be heard by someone sitting in my car while we are driving on the freeway. But thats to be expected - it is not until week 8 that one can start singing and doing voice exercises and strengthening exercises again and then it takes some more time until strength comes back. I suspect until the botox wears off in month 4, there is always a capo on the voice and it will be limited.

This is why I timed the visit to Korea in February even though Seoul is boring and grey in February, but I knew there was a teaching break for 8 weeks and my main speaking times in the job would be in June and July, so I gave myself as much time as I could to recover and still expect to need some help with amplifiers for a while.

[kwala]

Can I say how useful all these discussions are? I think we're operating at a much higher level of understanding now than when Jenny started this thread about Yeson. In particular the idea of complex undertones lending a male sound even when the fundamental frequency is in the female range is quite convincing to me. So even when Dr Kim doesn't achieve much of a pitch elevation, voices still sound more female, and I've noticed they're 'purer' somehow. It's very interesting and hopeful for me.

I totally agree and I'm so grateful to all of those here who have been willing to share their personal experiences with voice surgeries  for our benefit.  I have been researching this for a year as I consider undergoing the process myself and there is a LOT of great information being passed around here that you can't find anywhere else. 

[Calycé]

I had VFS in Yeson yesterday.

Like others here, I had assymetry. Rather big in my case it seems. My vocal folds were also never fully closing when making sound. Dr Kim told I needed 10 times more energy to speak than "normal" people. That probably explains why I was unable to make an aah that lasted 10 seconds as asked during examination. He also told me that I was totally unable to make resonance, he showed me on a graph a series of dot that according to him should have been full lines... He told me that I really really really need to see a speech therapist!

My fundamental frequency was 120hz. He told me that I would probably be just below the female range but that with the aid of a speech therapist I could probably sit in the low part of the female range.

According to the previous and after pictures of my vocal folds that he showed me, my untrained eye would say that he did between 40% and 50%.

Yesterday my throat was quite painful but it is ok now, just a small pain like I have laryngitis. All in all, it is the least painful surgery I had so far

[anjaq]

Congrats Calycé
Keep us updated on how it goes along

Like others here, I had assymetry. Rather big in my case it seems. My vocal folds were also never fully closing when making sound. Dr Kim told I needed 10 times more energy to speak than "normal" people. That probably explains why I was unable to make an aah that lasted 10 seconds as asked during examination

Yes, I know that one - I think he had to make the suture a bit longer becasue of that, around 40% instead of the 1/3 that many had

My fundamental frequency was 120hz. He told me that I would probably be just below the female range but that with the aid of a speech therapist I could probably sit in the low part of the female range.

I guess I am probably the same here too, but Dr Kim said my frequency was 134 Hz, but I think that was because I could not lot go of some feminization habits with my voice when we did the analysis, so I ended up a bit higher than I might have. I guess his calculation would then be 120+74=194 Hz which is below the 200 Hz that Dr Kim regards as the female range? I would not sweat about that, because 200 Hz is not the limit, I usually read 180 Hz is the lower female range , so you would be fine, but it depends on your country and culture. Koreans obviously have higher female voices, Americans medium, Germans rather low voices...

Yesterday my throat was quite painful but it is ok now, just a small pain like I have laryngitis. All in all, it is the least painful surgery I had so far

Indeed it is. and in 3 days or so you will hardly notice you had surgery unless you have to cough or sneeze and you will have to remind yourself to not speak because it wont feel like anything happened

[Calycé]

Congrats Calycé
Keep us updated on how it goes along

Thanks anjaq, I'll do it

Yes, I know that one - I think he had to make the suture a bit longer becasue of that, around 40% instead of the 1/3 that many had
I guess I am probably the same here too, but Dr Kim said my frequency was 134 Hz, but I think that was because I could not lot go of some feminization habits with my voice when we did the analysis, so I ended up a bit higher than I might have. I guess his calculation would then be 120+74=194 Hz which is below the 200 Hz that Dr Kim regards as the female range? I would not sweat about that, because 200 Hz is not the limit, I usually read 180 Hz is the lower female range , so you would be fine, but it depends on your country and culture. Koreans obviously have higher female voices, Americans medium, Germans rather low voices...

I'm not worried about the final results. It could only be better than what I used to have. I've never been able to attain a passable voice. It was always "hello miss bye mister". But I'll make sure to seek the aid of a speech therapist. I don't know anyone in Belgium who have the kind of expertise we need... If there's another belgian girl who has an address to give me

Indeed it is. and in 3 days or so you will hardly notice you had surgery unless you have to cough or sneeze and you will have to remind yourself to not speak because it wont feel like anything happened

Well, this is day 2 and I already don't feel anything except when eating where it is a little painful to chew on the side where my focal fold was much bigger than the other. I suppose it is due to the more aggressive thinning of that cord. Just my uneducated guess...

Now I'm just a little worried because I spoke during the first night. I woke up and forgot not to speak. How stupid I can be at times 

[anjaq]

Ah dont worry about that. It seems to happen to everyone and Jessie usually tells everyone then to calm down and just make sure it does not happen again. I woke up the morning after surgery because the bell of the room rang and my friend asked me "whats that sound" - so I was half asleep and of course did not remember not to say "its the doorbell". Oh no! - But as I said - it happens to everyone in some odd situation, just be more carefull in the next week.

I think as well - it can only get better. For me it already is a lot better now, event hough pitch is not yet where I was hoping it to be, but already I notice a lot of other differences. I think I will profit a lot from voice therapy though to get used to the new way my voice works. I am sure there will be someone in all of Belgium who can do voice therapy with you. It helps if that person is aware of gender differences and maybe even trans*-issues, but its not really a requirement per se after the surgery - The main focus is on speaking naturally, speaking with a good resonance, speaking without the hypertension and forcing and all the bad things that one has learned in the years speaking unntaurally or trying to sound feminine or compensating for the asymmetry. So in many ways it is just regular speech therapy as any other people would get who had some other type of surgery or have other types of vocal disorders.

[Teslagirl]

Ah dont worry about that. It seems to happen to everyone and Jessie usually tells everyone then to calm down and just make sure it does not happen again. I woke up the morning after surgery because the bell of the room rang and my friend asked me "whats that sound" - so I was half asleep and of course did not remember not to say "its the doorbell". Oh no! - But as I said - it happens to everyone in some odd situation, just be more carefull in the next week.

I think as well - it can only get better. For me it already is a lot better now, event hough pitch is not yet where I was hoping it to be, but already I notice a lot of other differences. I think I will profit a lot from voice therapy though to get used to the new way my voice works. I am sure there will be someone in all of Belgium who can do voice therapy with you. It helps if that person is aware of gender differences and maybe even trans*-issues, but its not really a requirement per se after the surgery - The main focus is on speaking naturally, speaking with a good resonance, speaking without the hypertension and forcing and all the bad things that one has learned in the years speaking unntaurally or trying to sound feminine or compensating for the asymmetry. So in many ways it is just regular speech therapy as any other people would get who had some other type of surgery or have other types of vocal disorders.

Anja, is it a matter of relaxing the voice back to where it was before I started to control it? (Many years ago!) At the moment I project my voice forward from my head. After Yeson will I need to go back to projecting from my chest? If so, how about the resonance the head projection was learnt to control? I'm still a bit confused about what Dr Kim needs to hear before surgery. Clearly not my controlled voice?

Sarah.

[anjaq]

Well, I tried to relax as much as I can around people for the pre OP assessment. I know I could have gone lower or somehow switched my resonance, but there is a huge psychological barrier in the way of that.

I am not really sure what I am going to need to do later on. Dr Kim says to not control the voice, to just let it come at the pitch it will have - but as I understand it from the website, they also mention that resonance can be controlled with voice therapy. Some have said that resonance control is needed, but it is a lot easier than before and comes more natural, my impression is that this is how it is going to be - it is easier for me now to "speak from the head" - it sounds better, too. Dr Kim says we will have to learn how to "play a new instrument" and my guess is that this instrument is now reacting a lot better on female pitches and female resonances than before, so it is actually easier and less straining to use these. If I fall back to the way of speaking pre OP, I notice that I strain faster than if I actually do use a higher pitch and project more from the mouth. I cannot really say yet how it is going to be eventually though.

[Cadence Jean]

Wow, I had no idea voice surgery that worked this well was out there!!!  How much does it run?  I seriously dislike my voice - I'm often misgendered over the phone and drive through speakers.  Others have told me that they find my voice soothing, but I simply can't hear it.  How much did this surgery run you ladies?  I'm so happy for y'all that you got good results!

[KristinaM]

Yeah, this is the first time I've heard of surgery that wasn't like a 50/50 shot of irreparably screwing up your voice forever. Sounds much less invasive and promising for good results.

I didn't read all like 177 pages of this on Tapatalk, so does anybody the TL; DR version? [emoji14]

[iKate]

Yeah, this is the first time I've heard of surgery that wasn't like a 50/50 shot of irreparably screwing up your voice forever. Sounds much less invasive and promising for good results.

I didn't read all like 177 pages of this on Tapatalk, so does anybody the TL; DR version? [emoji14]

They have a website.  Look for Yeson Voice Center. You can also email them and they will give you a handy info sheet including costs.

It's basically endoscopic and ties the vocal folds together to shorten it.

[anjaq]

Short version: They use a technique that others do as well : Dr Haben and Dr Remarcle was mentioned here in the forum, Prof Nawka in Berlin and someone in Stuttgard do a similar thing as well, apparently someone in the UK also does the same basic technique. BUT there are differences in how they do it - I would not recommend the two german clinics, they seem to be less good, use not enough care. Prof Remarcle uses some extra caution, using glue in addition to threads to stabilize the suture and he orders a longer voice rest for healing than the german doctors. Dr Kim at Yeson clinic uses permanent thread and avoids lasers but rather works with microscalpels. So each one has small differences and I think they reflect in the success rate of the surgery. In Berlin it apparently is only a 30% happiness rate, at Yeson it is 70-80%.

The tecnique is shortening of the vocal folds by a glottoplasty - basically suturing hte vocal folds together at the front to make them shorter.

At Yeson clinic, costs are about $8000, at Prof Remarcle its about 2/3 of that I believe.
(plus travel and hotel). the surgery is short, 60-90 minutes and one can go home to the hotel the same day at Yeson, some surgeons will keep you for 1-2 nights.

Followup at Yeson is a week after surgery and then you can fly home.

[Zoe Snow]

I'm having surgery today at Yeson.  Can't believe its finally today, and in like an hour. 

[Cadence Jean]

Best wishes, Zoe!!

[Sunhawk]

Almost time, flying out of St. Louis on Sunday for surgery on Wednesday. Not nervous, but really looking forward to having this done and get the healing started. I am kind of nervous about making my way to Phil House though, as it's been 22 years since I've was last in the RoK.

[anjaq]

Best Wishes for you two!

[Zoe Snow]

Surgery went well.  Had one hell of a sore throat afterwords, which thankfully is starting to get better now.  I also showed up a few minutes late.  Misjudged how long it would take to get there on the subway.  The return trip on the subway was pretty exhausting this afternoon.  I think I slept for a few hours once I got home.  This was also my first time ever being put under.  Very surreal experience.  One second I'm laying on the operating table, then the anesthesiologist said I was about to go under, put a mask over my mouth and nose, and a few seconds later I'm waking up in the recovery room feeling really exhausted.  Took a good hour or two before I really started to feel somewhat normal again.   Now for the long process of no talking...