Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

You have to be a woman first before you transition

Started by angelats, June 10, 2013, 07:15:52 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ltl89

Quote from: Donna Elvira on June 11, 2013, 12:02:52 AM
As so many posts on this forum attest, it is very difficult  to be certain that transitioning is the right path before actually starting to go down that path. Certainty, to the extent that anyone can be certain about anything in this world, comes with deep experience and that's why concepts like RLE exist. Furthemore, there are lot's of testimonials here and elsewhere indicating that even after transitioning physically, it takes serveral years of day to day life as a woman to really fully integrate the new reality.

I would therefore suggest that it is perfectly OK to take the first steps on the path to transition once one is reasonably sure that it is the right path eg. things like hair removal and HRT, but that is is highly advisable to avoid doing anything too radical like surgeries until the degree of confidence that it is indeed the corrct decision is high enough. Regarding this, I would further suggest that GRS should be the very, very last intervention anyone considers doing. 

My two "centimes" worth.
Donna



I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.
  •  

Joanna Dark

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.

Yeah but if you are too conservative with it you put off transitioning for years, losing all kinds of time and being depressed for no reason. If you start HRT and it is not right, you will know fairly quickly. And certainly by the time you lose some erectile functioning. By the time that happens in the first couple months, all changes are prob reversible but you might have small moobs. Not exactly the end of the world as I managed to pass as male with B cups for years and years. Had sex lots and had GFs and BFs.
  •  

Tristan

Joanna I think your right. the younger you start the more fun you can have and maybe the less depression... at least in theory ;)
  •  

kyh

I just knew... I had to go down this road. It was never a difficult decision for me, and I didn't have to think about it twice.
  •  

Tristan

Kyh. That's the ideal situation . Whenever you can be so sure of something as if its second hand nature that makes it easy. I wish everyone was as lucky in there decisions
  •  

Ltl89

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 15, 2013, 01:03:03 PM
Yeah but if you are too conservative with it you put off transitioning for years, losing all kinds of time and being depressed for no reason. If you start HRT and it is not right, you will know fairly quickly. And certainly by the time you lose some erectile functioning. By the time that happens in the first couple months, all changes are prob reversible but you might have small moobs. Not exactly the end of the world as I managed to pass as male with B cups for years and years. Had sex lots and had GFs and BFs.

Not everything is completely reversible.  Also, it depends how long someone is on it.  Plus, they may have come out to people without really knowing whether this was the right move.  Coming out can cause relationships to change and you need to be prepared that things in ones life will be altered in a major way.  This may be the right path for a lot of us, but it isn't for everyone.  While it can make many people happy, it can also make people more depressed. There are plenty of trans people that are on the fence about transitioning and there are plenty of people who are confused about their identity.  Isn't it better for them to do the proper self analysis before going through with it?  Transitioning is a major decision and should be made with lots of consideration.  I'm not saying one should be 100 percent sure. I think Donna does have a great point about RLE being an important test to verify ones feelings and assuage any doubts. However,  one should at least be fairly confident that this is right for them.  If there are major doubts or concerns, hrt should probably be avoided until these feelings are clear.   But that's just my personal opinion.
  •  

Tristan

Yeah. I always thought the same thing. It's like people are scared to take the big leap. I try to understand where everyone else is coming from but it's tough. I don't have the experience with life that they do. To build a life and family and have to give it all up or possible lose it all
  •  

Donna Elvira

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.

I think we are saying very much the same thing Learning to Live.  Of course I was fairly sure I was doing the right thing when I started HRT but certain, definitely not.  Based on my  own experience, I also disagree with you completely about the permanent changes to the body, at least at first.

For example, I personally operated stop-go on HRT for the better part of two years before finally deciding that yes, I was going to go down this path. Among other things, this particular experience allows me to say with a relatively high degree of confidence that there is almost nothing irreversible about 3 - 4 months HRT. For example,  during the 2 year stop and go period, I probably got to Tanner 2 and even Tanner 3 each time before stopping and every time I did this, the breast growth disappeared more or less completely within a few weeks. I may have damaged my fertility but, even if it mattered to me (it didn't), I would also be very dubious about that as I personally know someone who was on HRT for years before detransitioning and conceiving a child.  Interestingly, this person retransitioned again several  years later which also sort of shows that for many people, "deciding" on transition is anything but black and white.

In your own case, reading all of your posts, I am tempted to say that yes, you probably are very conservative or at least cautious in the way you go about things and I have no problem with that. I am actually pretty cautious too in my own way but beyond a certain point, which is no doubt different for all of us, I believe experience always beats theorizing.

In my own case, having been born a biological male with little to no visible evidence that anything was amiss (there was some though..), having lived most of my life as a male, including fathering three kids, even now I have difficulty saying "I am a woman" in the way Cindy says it. 

This is probably also down to five years university studies in life sciences which make me  very conscious of the some of the intrinsic biological differences between males and females. I always have a little voice in the back of my mind telling me that I can never "be a woman" in the same way as a genetic  female can live this reality.

However, I can say without any doubt that I have always identified very strongly with everything feminine and this from as early as I can remember. Like so many others , I had to repress this feeling for years, letting nothing show to others,  but it never went away and got considerably stronger as I hit my mid-forties. 

Following a divorce from my first wife, I had the space necessary to explore this feeling a lot more and between practical experimentation concerning my identity and vastly improved access to information regarding GID , I gradually gained much deeper understanding and acceptance of  who I was and what I could actually do about it.  Just to make things clear and how cautious I was, I regained my freedom end 1999 and didn't start HRT until 2008.

Even then though, as explained above, when I started HRT, it was at least as much about confirming my gut feeling as it was about any certainty  that I was making the right decision. Among others, this partially explains why I went back and forwards a few times but there were also just the practical issues raised by so many others here ie. trying to live with breasts while still operating completely as a guy in all aspects of my life.

Interestingly, several  years of HRT has strongly reinforced my feeling of "being a woman".  Apart from the obvious physical changes, the way I perceive things has changed quite radically over the last few years . I listen far more, am far more sensitive  and emotional  and my tastes have evolved considerably in areas from food  I like to eat through to choices for entertainment and the activities I engage in to stay fit. 

All of this leaves me with  the impression that, with HRT, my brain is being rewired  little by little. The good thing is that I am much happier with the persona  who has emerged from this process than the persona I presented as prior to starting this journey.

Also, as an aside comment, living this experience through my own body has left me more skeptical than ever about the idea that social conditioning is the only driver behind gender behaviours...

All of that was about  the certainty of  "being a woman before you transition".   On top of my conviction that for most of us, such certainty can only come through practical experience, there are loads of other  practical issues which will influence the decision to take the plunge or not:  family, friends, job etc...The constraints we are facing on such issues are also very different. For me, job security is now the biggest issue, but it is almost a life or death issue so that also gives pause for thought.

At the end  though, some day or another, in spite of all the uncertainty, to find out if transitioning is right for you, there is simply no alternative  to taking the plunge and testing the ground.

On that particular subject, did I pick up in one of your recent posts that you will be coming out to your mother tomorrow?  If yes, while I am pretty "certain"    :) that all will go fine, wishing you the very best of luck.
Bises
Donna





  •  

Tristan

wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day
  •  

Jess42

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Not always Tristen. Some of us can go back and forth for a while. Pretty much I would say it's up to the individual and comfort levels and so on. But on the other hand, if I knew then what I know now I would have made different choices. When I was 20 I really didn't have a clue what I would feel 20 years down the road. So both sides really have strong points.
  •  

Ltl89

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Circumstances differ between individuals.  I think there are plenty of trans people here on the forum who have decided not to transition.  If it works for them, that's great.  It's all about finding our individual path.  I, however, feel the need to transition.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on June 15, 2013, 02:54:18 PM

On that particular subject, did I pick up in one of your recnt posts that you will be coming out to your mother tomorrow?  If yes, while I am pretty "certain"    :) that all will go fine, wishing you the very best of luck.
Bises
Donna


Well, I'm actually doing it on Thursday now.  I have a whole plan.  My sister has been driving me crazy about coming out, but it needs to be done a certain way.  So Thursday is the day.   Thank you for the wishes. :)
  •  

kyh

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
Circumstances differ between individuals.  I think there are plenty of trans people here on the forum who have decided not to transition.  If it works for them, that's great.  It's all about finding our individual path.  I, however, feel the need to transition.

Well, I'm actually doing it on Thursday now.  I have a whole plan.  My sister has been driving me crazy about coming out, but it needs to be done a certain way.  So Thursday is the day.   Thank you for the wishes. :)

You'll do great, Learningtolive. Your family will accept you. I can just feel it.

Be brave. :)
  •  

Donna Elvira

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Hi Tristan,
Rejection and destition are also more or less guaranteed to take you down the route to depression or worse. Surviving in the real world always requires trade-off and compromises. Happily, in many places, society is evolving in a manner which makes these trade-offs less painful than before but it still varies a lot from place to place and for each person based on individual circomstances.
Warm regards.
Donna
  •  

Ltl89

Quote from: kyh on June 15, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
You'll do great, Learningtolive. Your family will accept you. I can just feel it.

Be brave. :)

Thank you.  My sister was awesome about it and she told me everyone else will be the same.  If not, she said she would fight for me and make everyone come on board.  Hopefully it will go well.
  •  

kyh

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 03:53:38 PM
Thank you.  My sister was awesome about it and she told me everyone else will be the same.  If not, she said she would fight for me and make everyone come on board.  Hopefully it will go well.

What a wonderful sister. So strong. Like you.

<3
  •  

Renee

I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.
  •  

kyh

Quote from: Renee on June 15, 2013, 04:09:16 PM
I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

You're not a freak :)

Even if you don't see yourself as a woman, you're not a freak. :angel:
  •  

Ltl89

Quote from: Renee on June 15, 2013, 04:09:16 PM
I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

I understand that feeling.  I've gone through feeling like a freak and still do to some degree.  I'm working on getting over this with my therapist, but it is complicated for me.  Having said that, please realize that the only person thinking that you are a freak is yourself.  We get so scared of being ourselves that ultimately we build this negative view on what being trans is.  In our heads, acting like our true self is a sin or horrible crime.  In reality, no one notices or cares too much.  Some may, but they aren't as numerous as one might think.
  •  

Donna Elvira

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 02:23:15 PM
Not everything is completely reversible.  Also, it depends how long someone is on it.  Plus, they may have come out to people without really knowing whether this was the right move.  Coming out can cause relationships to change and you need to be prepared that things in ones life will be altered in a major way.  This may be the right path for a lot of us, but it isn't for everyone.  While it can make many people happy, it can also make people more depressed. There are plenty of trans people that are on the fence about transitioning and there are plenty of people who are confused about their identity.  Isn't it better for them to do the proper self analysis before going through with it?  Transitioning is a major decision and should be made with lots of consideration.  I'm not saying one should be 100 percent sure. I think Donna does have a great point about RLE being an important test to verify ones feelings and assuage any doubts. However,  one should at least be fairly confident that this is right for them.  If there are major doubts or concerns, hrt should probably be avoided until these feelings are clear.   But that's just my personal opinion.

Hi again,
I think there is some confusion in your post between starting a transition and coming out. To all intents and purposes, I started my transition in 2008. However, apart from wife, I didn't come out to anyone until I starting making some really visible changes ie. FFS in July 2011.  By then, I was already far more certain about wanting to go down this path but even then, as I only did upper face FFS, I had  left myself a get out of jail card.  The most obvious change after my upper face FFS was to my nose and around my eyes and I explained this  to most people by simply telling them I had done a rhino to change a nose I had always hated. As it was quite a honker  :), it was a very easy sell.

Overall, beyond the people who are really close to me, wife and kids and a few very close friends, I didn't come out to anyone until I was sure I could pass comfortably as a woman and that wasn't until after my lower face FFS in August 2012. In my mind, my credibility presenting as a woman has been key part of a transition which has so far gone pretty well even if I had a major scare workwise.  My kids, for example are already OK with presenting me to their friends.

As it happens, I made up my mind quite some time ago that the only way I could sucessfully transition was by insuring that I was first being spontaneously clocked female by most people most of the time.  For me, if that wasn't the case, I was heading straight into a brick wall, trying to swim too much against the current.

That's also what I mean when I talk about taking the plunge and actually doing all the things necessary to get to where you want to be, even if there is very little certainty beforehand about where it is going to get you. I would also suggest that you try to give yourself as much room to manoeuver as possible along the way as even the best plans tend to come unstuck when confronted with reality.
Bises
Donna
  •  

peky

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide?

Transsexual...a word with no true meaning...a derogatory word coined by ignorant people...

I was a female since I can remember....I was not free to express my gender or change my body to match my mind for various reasons....I was not happy with the situation...but certainly not "depressed."

I had to live in the male role for many decades...and well along the way I enjoyed life...I strived to touch other people lives in a meaningful way...

How would my life have been different if I had transition in my early 20's? Who knows. Personally I do not care to think about...

All I can say is life has been good to me..and the best is yet to come
  •