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Why Do I Feel Uncomfortable When I See a Very "Unpassable" Transwomen

Started by melissa90299, June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM

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Suzie

Quote from: SusanK on June 17, 2007, 03:06:38 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective...

I agree.  I am constantly sizing up other women wondering and questioning their 23rd chromosome at any hint of gender ambiguity.  Sometimes I think everyone is trans!!!  I live in Mpls/St Paul and I would consider this a trans-aware place due to the health care that's available for us.  There are lots of supportive people in this area; I've been fortunate.

Most people in large cities could care less about strangers.  No one usually blinks when I'm out and about as Suzie.


To Melissa regarding your original thread:  didn't I read you went to Ousterhout?  Why are you dissing the street people CDs after you went to the face God?  It's kind of like someone who steps out of a new Mercedes looking down on people driving a beat-up motorcycle.  It just screams pretentiousness sweetie, time to get back to your roots (No I don't mean start drinking again!).  I'm constantly comparing myself to other trans women, I totally understand, but finding compassion for other TS is not something you will find on a website, it comes from within us.






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Keira


Women 6 foot and taller are much less than 1% here, I'm guessing its 0.2%.  So, if somone assumes someone 6 foot and over is a TS, there's a good enough chance that they are right, regardless of how feminine the rest of your body looks.

Of course, if your sure enough of yourself, height doesn't matter, because just a few people really focus on it; they just live their lives  and have other thing to worry about than little you.

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karmatic1110

I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.  Its not something I can change and I think my foot or hand size is more of an issue.  Its not going to stop me from transitioning, although I could focus on all of the negative and worry daily about my flaws. 

I have felt uncomfortable not with unpassable TS, but with people who put no real effort in their presentation.

Charlotte

Kate

Quote from: charlotteNH on June 17, 2007, 07:39:39 PM
I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.

Me too... at least now anyway. Way back when starting this, I was obsessed with worry over being 6'2", but it doesn't seem to matter much. Being out *totally* female is still new to me, and I just spent the day walking around shopping and dining with my wife (5'4") and her friend's mother ("5'0"), and heard nothing but "How are you ladies?" and "Have a nice night girls!" I saw no odd looks, no double-takes, no stares. I worried that the *contrast* would out me, but as best I could tell, no one noticed. Now sure, maybe people figured me out and I didn't notice, but in any case, it's not like crowds of curious gawkers were accumulating behind me. I had a normal, ordinary day out. What more could I want? ;)

~Kate~
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cindianna_jones

There are many reasons for these kinds of feelings. 

Some of it may be contempt for those who don't seem to put in the same effort we do to be presentable.

Some of it may be our own insecurities that we may be outed by simple association with someone like this.

Some of it may be our own remaining bigoted feelings. Yes, we've done our best to flush them away. But it's hard to clean that house.

Most of us have these feelings.  I believe it to be normal.  I also know it is a healthy thing to recognize and question them.  Hopefully, we can find constructive means to deal with them.  This is what makes us a better and more compassionate person.

This is an excellent thread. Thanks Melissa for posing these questions.

Cindi
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Nero

Quote from: Cindi Jones on June 17, 2007, 09:29:18 PM
This is an excellent thread. Thanks Melissa for posing these questions.
I agree. You knew you'd get flak for it, but you voiced the feelings of many transpeople. It's always healthy to confront these kinds of issues. :)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Maud

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PMSorry to differ but no one passes absolutely. Nice to have confidence though.

You don't know those who pass absolutely because they do not out themselves to you in real life, you would not read me for a few reasons I don't care to get into.
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melissa90299

I can read transwomen without making visual contact. I feel the presence of transwomen when one enters my sphere. Once I feel the presence, if I make visual contact, I will see something that confirms my reading. If there isn't anything in the physical appearance, there is usually a certain demeanor I pick up.

Hey, you might be one in a million, who knows but even people like Calpernia Addams have admitted they get clocked. I would love to know what these factors are that make you unique to all other transsexuals on the planet. We could probably learn from this, maybe you could post it in Just Us or pm your secrets to me.

Also just philosophically speaking, there are no absolutes, everything is relative.
Quote from: Suzie on June 17, 2007, 07:16:20 PM
Quote from: SusanK on June 17, 2007, 03:06:38 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective...

I agree.  I am constantly sizing up other women wondering and questioning their 23rd chromosome at any hint of gender ambiguity.  Sometimes I think everyone is trans!!!  I live in Mpls/St Paul and I would consider this a trans-aware place due to the health care that's available for us.  There are lots of supportive people in this area; I've been fortunate.

Most people in large cities could care less about strangers.  No one usually blinks when I'm out and about as Suzie.


To Melissa regarding your original thread:  didn't I read you went to Ousterhout?  Why are you dissing the street people CDs after you went to the face God?  It's kind of like someone who steps out of a new Mercedes looking down on people driving a beat-up motorcycle.  It just screams pretentiousness sweetie, time to get back to your roots (No I don't mean start drinking again!).  I'm constantly comparing myself to other trans women, I totally understand, but finding compassion for other TS is not something you will find on a website, it comes from within us.








It also comes from discussing one's insecurities. I am not dissing anyone, I can't help that I felt this way.  I think I pointed out that also felt empathy (compassion) for them but that didn't take away the feeling of discomfort. And the feeling of superiority, which might be the root of my discomfort as my recovery philosophy teaches me not to feel less than or better than anyone. I do not think I would even be having this conversation if I wasn't in recovery. Someone brought up in an AA meeting that we alcoholic/addicts actually have an advantage over "normies" as we are given a guidebook to living, whereas as most people just muddle on the best they can on their own. Discussing stuff like this is essential and I can't discuss it in my regular groups, actually I guess I could, I just haven't, besides I think other transpeople can give me a better perspective.
Quote from: Kate on June 17, 2007, 08:25:28 PM
Quote from: charlotteNH on June 17, 2007, 07:39:39 PM
I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.

Me too... at least now anyway. Way back when starting this, I was obsessed with worry over being 6'2", but it doesn't seem to matter much. Being out *totally* female is still new to me, and I just spent the day walking around shopping and dining with my wife (5'4") and her friend's mother ("5'0"), and heard nothing but "How are you ladies?" and "Have a nice night girls!" I saw no odd looks, no double-takes, no stares. I worried that the *contrast* would out me, but as best I could tell, no one noticed. Now sure, maybe people figured me out and I didn't notice, but in any case, it's not like crowds of curious gawkers were accumulating behind me. I had a normal, ordinary day out. What more could I want? ;)

~Kate~

If you are early in transition and not getting negative feedback or attention, you are doing fine.
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Maud

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 08:33:36 AM
I can read transwomen without making visual contact. I feel the presence of transwomen when one enters my sphere. Once I feel the presence, if I make visual contact, I will see something that confirms my reading. If there isn't anything in the physical appearance, there is usually a certain demeanor I pick up.

Oh I know, passing to the degree I talk of is entirely to do with mentality, I can quite easily forget I'm TS and just move on, there's also a degree of female socialisation at a young enough age you need to be able to really get it, my sister included me in her world, I went to sleepovers with her and I was included with her friends when they came over ect, there's also a degree of being outed because you notice things, that's happened to me before when I've clocked someone else and they've clocked me clocking them and thus probably clocked me.

I frankly don't give a toss if there are other transwomen about so i don't give people scrutiny that way, occasionally I read people just like any person would because they don't pass too great but i don't react in that knowing way.

All this while i explain it in a bit of a long winded way is not something I think about, I have better things to do than stress about this and work out a plan of action.

I think i'd first think something's up with capernia due to her shoulders and that would be confirmed by the way i can see through her facial bone structure, it's fairly easy to see that she's had FFS. There's also a degree of clash one can tell from level of masculinisation at the bone level clashing with feminisation of skin/fat, because I started HRT while puberty was only just starting for me my bone structure never became that masculine and these days it all matches up as well and there is no real clash, tbh I think if i had FFS It would make me less passable, at the moment I don't have any clash in my appearance everything is congruent and if i feminised a few facial features it would look a bit wrong.
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melissa90299

Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)

Anyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.
I have worked with two "deep stealth" transsexuals who were so passable no one but me had a clue (as far as I knew) but I knew and it was rather odd as they knew that I knew. We never talked about directly but in conversations we would kinda acknowledge it in a round about way.

So today, whereas I usually just go to my groups dressed casually and with minimal make-up, I felt kinda sexy and was even having these fantasies about men, of all things, so I dressed cute, did my hair and makeup nice, lo ad behold, men are hitting on me right and left, I am waiting on Market for the trolley and who walks but two poorly passable transwomen, one of which was the motivation of this thread, I didn't make eye contact, then this guy walks past them and up to me and asks if I wanted to have a good time cuz he has a twelve! Wow, I said thanks but no thanks, anyway I think I must be giving out the "I want a man today signal!" As I said before, I have a very strong sexual aura and I guess the guys were picking up on my desires Getting back to the women, I didn't feel uncomfortable, I did feel good that I was so much higher up on the food chain so I guess that's not good, but on a human level, I don't feel like I am better than them in any way.
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Maud

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)


My father is much like you in experience and ge just reads people MTF or FTM allike so I know where you're coming from, the person who picked up on that 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% would end up thinking they read half the women on the planet as trans, and i can't resist responding to the isecurity jab, this is purely for the sake of arguement, I know I pass 100% and that's a key part in my passing because it's so absolute that I don't expect there to be any question as to my gender.


http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9190/smileoo4.jpg

I don't look that amazing but there are enough natal girls who look more trans than i do for how i look to never cause enough suspicion to have someone read me.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans.
In Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Rachael

Quote from: Nikki on June 15, 2007, 11:45:24 AM
Would an "unpassable transwoman" be a woman that tries to pass as trans but anyone can tell she's a GG? I know a couple of very "passable transwomen" I don't know if they trans or GG but they can sure "pass" for trans. You have to "pass" when you are trying to represent yourself as something you aren't. I have to "pass" every time I go out as a guy, but I don't have to pass as a woman neither do the women you are judging. Maybe if you put less focus on being pretty and FFS and BA and whatever else to make GG's jealous, instead of seeing "unpassable transwomen" you would just see "women".
its a lovely sentiment, but society works like that, beauty is a measure of genetic breading suitability in social history. now, i dont know, but  your cant stop focusing on pretty. tbh for us, there is two scales,
the passing scale, which covers looking male or  female, then the attractiveness scale, both are, in my mind, paralel, not serise, but i think the op means that by unpassable trans women, sshe means ts women who dont pass as female, who look like men trying to pass, people aim in transition isnt to be trans women, if it is, your doing this for the wrong reasons, and probably shouldnt transition, To be honest, i agrree, when around unpassable trans folk, i feel embaraced that people will look at them, and associate me with them, even though i pass quite well, its read by association, that socialising, or being near another ts person, will get me read. Call me vain, but im like that. I understand, but in the same vain, i cant, i pass, quite easily, and as such, can sympathise with unpassable ts women, or men, we forget, but i cant empathise, and i dont really want to associate, as my problems, and thiers are differnet. the fear i guess, is a still beliving we are doing something wrong, and passing is us hiding it, and being around an obviiously trans person, means were socially doing something weird. meh, life sucks, deal with what you get.
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Melissa

Quote from: Mawd on June 18, 2007, 02:27:11 PM
My father is much like you in experience and ge just reads people MTF or FTM allike so I know where you're coming from, the person who picked up on that 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% would end up thinking they read half the women on the planet as trans, and i can't resist responding to the isecurity jab, this is purely for the sake of arguement, I know I pass 100% and that's a key part in my passing because it's so absolute that I don't expect there to be any question as to my gender.

That exactly how it is for me too.  I don't expect people to question me and they don't.  Not only that, but I have had conversations about transsexualism with people without them knowing I was TS, I have gone to esprit (an event specifically for TG) and passed--they thought I was an SO until I told them I wasn't, I live my life in stealth unless I choose not to.  I had a girlfriend who had no idea I was TS until she got a bit to close to my genitalia.  I was never raised as male, my bone structure and everything is that of a female (still looking for the answer to that one), and even my voice is female, so I'm essentially a GG with the wrong genitals at this point.  My height isn't even abnormal for a female.  If somebody's TS-radar is tuned SO sensitive as to scrutinize me as TS, they would pick up SO many GGs on the planet as well.

Also, regarding the FFS making you look less passable, I think it depends on what you did.  If you just did something any GG could/would do, then that may not exempt you from passing perfectly.  However, my face seems fine.



Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PMAnyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.
Well, if that's it, then you need to realize that you know more than the average person and just because you can read them, does not mean everyone else in the vicinity has the same ability.  So now you can relax knowing that you won't necessarily be read by association.
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Lori

Hey Melissa90299, if you don't mind my asking, when did you have your stroke?
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SusanK

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them.

Personally, while I've read personal and news stories about discrimination toward transpeople, I personally haven't seen people make a fuss about a non-passable transwoman, and I've seen enough where I live. And personally I'm not bothered, it's their life and they deserve the respect to be treated as a human being. It's intolerance, overt or covert, that hurts, no matter who, when and where. And it doesn't matter if they're trans, transient, disabled, retarded, whatever, it's about respecting individual dignity.

Please understand it's not meant to be harsh, I just don't understand why you make it a statement you can "tell" a transwoman. I don't understand why it even matters. But I do have some questions. If you met them, did you smile or say "Hello" at them. Or did you walk away not wanting to know or be seen with them? What do you think they thought of you? What do you think other (non-trans) people think of you when they see or met you? Or do you care?
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Thundra

QuoteIn Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.

LOL.  Very nice indeed.

I thought that I was tall until I moved to Colorado, and discovered I was a midget.
Tons of women there that are way over six feet and thin too -- like a gaggle of models.
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Laura Eva B

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)

Anyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.
I have worked with two "deep stealth" transsexuals who were so passable no one but me had a clue (as far as I knew) but I knew and it was rather odd as they knew that I knew. We never talked about directly but in conversations we would kinda acknowledge it in a round about way.

So today, whereas I usually just go to my groups dressed casually and with minimal make-up, I felt kinda sexy and was even having these fantasies about men, of all things, so I dressed cute, did my hair and makeup nice, lo ad behold, men are hitting on me right and left, I am waiting on Market for the trolley and who walks but two poorly passable transwomen, one of which was the motivation of this thread, I didn't make eye contact, then this guy walks past them and up to me and asks if I wanted to have a good time cuz he has a twelve! Wow, I said thanks but no thanks, anyway I think I must be giving out the "I want a man today signal!" As I said before, I have a very strong sexual aura and I guess the guys were picking up on my desires Getting back to the women, I didn't feel uncomfortable, I did feel good that I was so much higher up on the food chain so I guess that's not good, but on a human level, I don't feel like I am better than them in any way.


Melissa, do you understand how derogatory, insulting, smug an superior this post makes you appear ?

Maybe a clarification / explanation would be helpful and in order to placate people .... and some (pre-stroke  ;) ?) pics to show us why you're "so perfect" and such a man / woman magnet that you can denegrate not only the lovely Maud, but by association the likes of most of us here ...

Maybe you don't realise but modesty is a virtue ....

Laura x
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Keira


My own opinion is that certain people, like me,will be assumed as TS by the same people who would think certain GG's are TS. So, I'm not sure you can call this being read at all.

Outside my own neighborhood were they know me from before, I've had no problems at all, besides guys checking me out.

Yesterday, for fun, we did an experiment, me and 2 friends walked 20 feet and 50 feet behind me while we walked for quarter of a mile on St-Catherine (A very busy commercial street with tons of very varied foot traffic from children to grandparents, from the stars to the dowdy, people of all cultural backgrounds.

They had their eyes/ears peeled for the tells of being read. A typical one I had from couples in the early months of my transition before HRT kicked in and I had a slight FFS. Some men's eyes became larger, then after I passed by, the guy said something to their girlfriend and then the girlfriend turned around. Since I transitioned when I was probably 90-95% passable, I've seen plenty of the "read" signs.

What my friends saw from women, teens, elders, childfren, no reaction, from men alone, 3-4  turned around to check me out (very characteristic head turn). In couples, women were looking a their guys while they passed by me? I often see that look from a woman in a couple when a possible competitor is around. That's all, 1000-2000 people went passed me and not one twitch NOW.  It was not always the case, I remember how it was before.

In my case, if I look at the stat chart, I know that its my height that stands the greatest chance of "outing" me since there is no way to hide it, and in Montreal there is very few women as tall as me. So if in a bigot's head every tall women is a TS, they'll obviously I will be lumped into that group, one of those few tall women will also be lumped in there. That's the kind of "read" that any TS women in a society where women are much smaller cannot avoid regardless of how they look if someone is anal enough to just looks at heights in a social interaction (disregarding everything else); most sane people don't carry a stat chart in their heads and don't care for that kind of details even on a subconscious level.

In general, those that can "read" TS, probably shoot so broadly as being a bigot to 5% of the female population that's outside their own norm in any way. They're the same ones bashing men that are not "man enough"or insulting overweight or ugly women.

The last 1% of passability rarely matters I think in life. If your, like Mawd and most TS women here, and are sure of who you are, why let the dumbass who would clock a GG bother you?

An unpassable TS is not that it takes most of the pop an antropometry chart to notice, they are quite obvious to all. If we did the same experiement as I did, I'd bet that they'd be reactions from 1/5 to 1/4 of the people that person passed would react. I know the reactions from this minority can be not very pleasant (from my early not so passable days); the most unpleasant ones are when people have to say in a loud voice that your a man so everyone around will hear.

I have a mixture and compassion or disconfort when I see such a woman. But, as I've felt better about myself, I've felt less and less uncomfortable of being seen in public in their company. I think that the disconfort is a reflection of our own insecurities up to a point. If you feel sure of who you are, how you look, it seems to matter less what others think and more what you think.


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melissa90299

LOL Laura , you are tripping, girl. What is possibly racist about crack whores? Most crack whores I know are white. If the crap I post upsets you, use the scroll button, though sometimes some stuff is tongue in cheek, I post the truth the way I see it. I don't feel superior to anyone, in fact, as I have posted time and time agian, I have problems with self-esteem. All my girlfriends think I am crazy when I tell them how I always worry about people liking me. The thing is 100 people can tell me how beautiful, charming, funny, articulate, courageous, sexy, attractive, intelligent, and talented I am, then one person says something negative or snubs me and I focus on the negative and obsess on that.
And all I said to Mawd was that no one passes absolutely, maybe the level of passing is so high that only someone with strong ESP like myself will pick up the vibe but that still means less than absolute. I don't think anything is absolute, well maybe death and taxes...

Notice that I very rarely comment about how well I pass, if I use the same criteria as everyone else, I suppose I pass 100% too except the only way I could ever know that it to query the hundreds of people who see me on a weekly basis. One thing I am sure of, I am sexier and more attractive than at least 90% of women my age. And I know that absolutely! :)


Quote from: Lori on June 18, 2007, 06:32:01 PM
Hey Melissa90299, if you don't mind my asking, when did you have your stroke?

I will pray for you.
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