To the married folks

[kathyk]

I've got an answer to Janea after this.  So to Katie, the OP. 

My wife went to one therapy session last November and refused to go back again.  She almost lost her job because of the preoccupation with our marriage, and ended up on a years probation.  We've lived apart for the last six months and that rekindled a friendship that was lost, but we haven't been tender and loving for more than 20 years so I guess friendship is good enough.  We're going to be living in the same house for the next three months and I'm sure she'll decide during that time what will happen with me.  It's her decision to send me out the door, or have me stay.  In the meantime there's a separate room for me both here and in California. (my sons old rooms)

Now:

What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?

Janae:   Even if there's already been a lot of answers to your question I'll toss in my two cents.  But I'll give you a hug first because you're young and have so much to look forward to in this paradigm where you can find wonderful love and acceptance.  Yeah, I'm very envious.

So, the simple answer is  - because "We fell in love."   

The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.  There was no resource for being trans, and no one talked about it other than to debase and humiliate anyone like us.  Trans individuals were considered queers, ->-bleeped-<-gots, deviants, or child molesters.  I was only beaten up a couple times, and suffered only one forced sexual act (rape) but others went through much more torture, and at times it's a wonder any of us survived.   So we learned to live in society for self protection, and we had to find a social group that provided some acceptance of our weird body language and speech patterns.  It was either a conscious decision or something that just came to us.  So we lived our lives as born, and hid everything inside or in closets.  We had no choice, and yet at some point we found someone to fall in love with. 

Hugs again hon.  K

[KabitTarah]

The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Don't leave out the 80s! Unless you meant "born in." I was born in '78, but I grew up in the 80s & 90s... things were only a bit better for gay kids (and I had two HS friends who came out gay in college) and hardly at all better for trans kids. The bullies then were worse than they are now (and I think that's saying something)!

I don't think transgender kids have really had it "better" (not good, but much better) until very recently - the last 10 years at best. (The last 20-25 years by birth).

[translora]

Janae,

In your case you cross-dressed and latter came to terms that you were in fact trans.

Not quite. I've experienced gender discomfort all of my life, but I never identified with people who felt like they were somehow in the wrong type of body. (Actually, I still don't identify with that feeling at all.) This may be hard to understand given what you are describing for yourself, but I have lived a very normal and comfortable life as a man. I'm fully functional, not suicidal, not socially limited or anything. I've never gone off the hyper-masculine deep end, or felt anything close to it. I've always experienced a sort of general dis-ease with my masculinity, but nothing more -- until now.

In other words, as is often the case when two trans people exchange experiences, mine was very different from yours.

What happened to me is that my feelings changed -- in a big way, and over a relatively short period of time. I've asked myself if I was just in denial all those years, and who knows? Maybe. But I didn't think so then and I don't think so now. I think that I got the benefit of age, and my point of view changed. It has happened with other things as well. (You'll have to trust me on this, but the world looks very different the minute you become a parent.)

I'm not sure of your sexual orientation but in a way I think it matters in these situations.

Straight. Forever. Without the single slightest attraction to, or experience with, men. Not even in fantasy. And this I'm relatively certain was not due to any sort of denial.

But "straight" to me means the same as "balanced". As a man, the feminine provides balance for me. Were I to transition, I suspect that I would stay straight -- which is to say that, as a woman, it's the masculine which would then provide balance. I can't know this for sure, but I'm trying to be honest with myself and preparing for that possibility should I ever get to that point of transition. But, you never know until you get there.

Again in your case your wife had a clue somewhat so I'm sure coming out as trans wasn't to much of a shock for her.

Even with a history as a cross-dresser, the shift to trans was a huge shock for both of us, one we are still processing.

I just wonder if it was worth it for those who knew they were trans or had trans-related feelings prior to getting married.

I wouldn't trade my marriage for anything, and I won't. I would be a lesser person if I had not experienced what I have, both in terms of the relationship and the children. I believe that my wife feels the same way, despite some nervousness about what the future holds.

And though this isn't really the direction I ever expected my life to go, I don't think I'd go back and change it even if I could. You have to play the cards you're dealt.

Lora

[translora]

Let me make a quick plug for my early trans-awareness.

I first looked up the word "->-bleeped-<-" in a dictionary around 1973 (born in '63). It pretty much described what I was experiencing.

I became aware of Christine Jorgenson about the same time, along with the possibility of "sex change surgery". It didn't really fit how I felt, but I knew it existed.

The Phil Donahue Show first covered "transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s" in the mid-1970s somewhere, and that's the vehicle by which the subject entered the national consciousness. By then, I already knew a whole lot about the subject, but I was transfixed (if you'll pardon the expression) by his guests. Still, I was easily able to figure out which category described me, and accepted that into my own identity.

These early days weren't very enlightened (and the '80s made it worse, not better, with the addition of heightened sensationalizing), but to say it wasn't out there just isn't true. For the motivated, information (despite being incomplete, and sometimes misleading) was easy (if embarrassing) to find.

Lora

EDIT: I can't believe that I forgot to mention Penthouse magazine. Starting in the late '70s, my brother and his friends had a stash of these, and the "Forum" section often contained at least one trans-themed story. That was a huge source of comfort to me because it was proof that I was not alone...

[kathyk]

I didn't mean to leave anyone out or mischaracterize what you've gone through.  Each decade has it's bad times, evil people, and bigotry.  Even  those who struggle with gender today have these problems.  I only meant to express the "when and where" I came from.  Sorry, and I humbly offer my apology.

[KabitTarah]

I didn't mean to leave anyone out or mischaracterize what you've gone through.  Each decade has it's bad times, evil people, and bigotry.  Even  those who struggle with gender today have these problems.  I only meant to express the "when and where" I came from.  Sorry, and I humbly offer my apology.

No hard feelings from me! Truthfully... there's no good time to come out -- just less bad times.

[Carlita]

Let me make a quick plug for my early trans-awareness.

I first looked up the word "->-bleeped-<-" in a dictionary around 1973 (born in '63). It pretty much described what I was experiencing.

I became aware of Christine Jorgenson about the same time, along with the possibility of "sex change surgery". It didn't really fit how I felt, but I knew it existed.

The Phil Donahue Show first covered "transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s" in the mid-1970s somewhere, and that's the vehicle by which the subject entered the national consciousness. By then, I already knew a whole lot about the subject, but I was transfixed (if you'll pardon the expression) by his guests. Still, I was easily able to figure out which category described me, and accepted that into my own identity.

These early days weren't very enlightened (and the '80s made it worse, not better, with the addition of heightened sensationalizing), but to say it wasn't out there just isn't true. For the motivated, information (despite being incomplete, and sometimes misleading) was easy (if embarrassing) to find.

Lora

Well, here's my awareness history ...

All through my boyhood I felt different from the other boys (and there were only boys) around me. I couldn't quite say why.  I just felt more insubstantial than them in some way. But I was away at boarding school. My parents were thousands of miles away. There was no one to talk to and I didn't want to get the **** kicked out of me. So I manned up, became hyper-competitive, angry, even aggressive. Over-compensating like crazy.

So, puberty hits ...

In January 1974 my father, now back in the UK, took me to see the original London production of the Rocky Horror Show for my 15th birthday treat. Already an obsessive David Bowie fan - and in love with the whole idea of being able to look so wild and pretty as a man - I was, of course, knocked out by the show. One verse in particular transfixed me:

Whatever happened to Fay Wray
That delicate satin draped frame
As it clung to her thigh
How I started to cry
Coz I wanted to be dressed just the same

And I suddenly realised, with absolute clarity, that I wanted to be like (and not just be dressed like) Fay Wray too.

Later that year, Jan Morris published Conundrum, the story of her early life as James Morris and her sex-change (the word 'transition' wasn't used then, so far as I as, or am aware) ... and I read the extracts in the Sunday Times and thought, 'Oh my God, am I like that?'

So I knew about transsexuality. And I was fascinated by it. And I lay in the bath and fantasized about some accident or disease that would take away all that stuff between my legs, so that I could become a girl.

But I never thought that I wasn't a boy. I was at an all-boys school. I had girlfriends. I was being raised to be a man - in fact, a leader of men ... And THAT's the difference between then and now, because when I tried to make sense of what i was feeling, and tried to talk to the shrinks I was seeing from my late teens on, no one said, 'You're transsexual.'

On the contrary, they did everything they could to reinforce the supposedly rational, common sense truth that I was male and should stay male, and if I wasn't happy with that, well, I just had to make the best of it.  ... Obviously, they didn't put it that crudely. But they certainly did not hear me, or acknowledge my truth when I kept telling them again and again and again about my longing to be female.

My guess, well, my hope is that a kid who felt that way today, and went to see people who were supposed to be experts would be given a more open-minded hearing.

[AZKatie]

Thank you to everyone for responding.

I too was someone that was pretty deep in denial growing up.  I knew I was a woman around age 10 but also knew that unless god changed me in my sleep it wasn't going to happen.  I tried to be as manly as I could in hopes that the female thoughts would go away.  I played sports in high school, joined the military after college and worked with special forces for 7 years.  Even now I don't exactly have a female friendly job as a contractor working with those same guys, but that's a different problem. 

We met while I was in the military so I assume she thought she found a macho guy that was also sensitive.  When I came out to her she thought it was a bad joke, and keeps thinking that it's just a bad dream. 

Last night we had a long conversation about the future, and I think she is leaning towards either a sexless or open marriage.  I think we came to the decision that divorce is a last option.  We still love each other and can't stand the thought of being apart, so hopefully that can carry us for the long run.

[Constance]

What I'd like to know, and I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this, is why would anyone who is mtf get married prior to transitioning?

To me it seems like such a waste for everyone involved. I could never have dated a woman let alone got married to one and started a family knowing what I was. I understand being in denial or not accepting yourself, but to bring another innocent person into this kinda of situation is beyond my understanding. And then on top of it to expect a spouse to go along with everything in the end. I never hear anyone talk the pain these females are experiencing, only how tough things are for us after coming out to a wife. I mean it can't be easy waking up one day and your husband just decides to become a woman. After that I seriously can't blame them for being standoffish and detached.

I sure would like to know the reasoning some people here had before getting hitched.

I was married at age 19 because I'd fallen in love. I didn't fully understand my gender identity until I was 40. We were divorced not long after I turned 41.

And it's not a waste. My ex doesn't hate me and we have two wonderful adult kids who still love us both.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Married 27 years, still married, no signs anything will be changing in that detail.

Life though is change.

My wife has stuck through with more than a few hard challenges, I think shes either a glutton for punishment or a hardcore not quitter type.

I think she'd have left me a long ways back if she was inclined to do so.

But still, there is a big difference between leaving a man and leaving a no longer male person.

And while marriage is not all sex, and if you ask most couples they hardly have sex at all in many cases, but let me tell ya, the moment your sex life is not being delivered via her body, it sure as hell makes a damned big difference.

But when your sex life requires her to do to you, what you normally do to her, it can get complicated. Maybe she doesn't quite like giving ->-bleeped-<-s, but giving another female oral well its not something the average woman expects to do in a hetero married existence. She's used to laying back and you using your magic fingers on her, not her doing that to yours

In my case, I have had a VERY active sex life in the last number of years. If you measure frequency, I was likely getting it more often than the rest of the thread combined for the last few years But, I am not really sure what that was all about either. I have thought my body was over compensating for something. I'm not in the greatest of shape either, and some days, just being able to finish the act, it is a lot of hassle for me let alone my wife. And she's not in the greatest of shape either. Life with me has not been a picnic.

My wife and I, we have both resolved that A, we love each other more than life. B, we dread losing each other. C, we both really would prefer my sex drive gave it a rest as she really doesn't want it any more than me and currently I would rather it would shut off and stay off. I figure if HRT turns it off, we both win. I have no trouble sleeping next to the person that means the most to me. She is not just her body. And inasmuch as vows go, we did after all say for better or worse, sickness and health forsaking all others, till death do us part. There was never any mention of sex, or the specific method of how to get off.

My wife and I have realized, 'we need each other'. Our lives, divorced, they basically roll over and die. Financially we suffer, and we end up alone, and we have no one there to laugh with. We got married because we wanted each other. We'd done the parent thing. That stage is completed. Our son is an adult so we have no entanglements there.

We just the other day bought some tops from a company we like via their online store. Simple tshirts. It was handy we are the same size. She stated though, if they are really nice, she reserves the right to re order and get her own set I don't mind, she is always spilling stuff on her tops anyway
But it is nice we can at least have the ability to enjoy the fact that we might be able to share clothing in some cases. I am not sharing lingerie though She can get her own

But I feel so deeply sad for all that have marriages that simply can't come through unbroken.
I think too often, the vows in the ceremony don't mean enough, the sex means too much and people are often too set on seeing the shell as being who we are and not the person inside. Kids often make things too complicated, or the couple simply has not survived enough trials earlier to make it strong enough.

[kathyk]

quote author=AZKatie link=topic=150793.msg1256256#msg1256256 date=1381943686]
...Last night we had a long conversation about the future, and I think she is leaning towards either a sexless or open marriage.  I think we came to the decision that divorce is a last option.  We still love each other and can't stand the thought of being apart, so hopefully that can carry us for the long run.[/quote]

That's good news.  My wife says we might stay married as friends, or might need to go with an unoffical separation.  It's been a year since we had that long discussion about separation, or divorce.  She hasn't yet said "don't come home".  So I keep my fingers crossed. 

And it's not a waste. My ex doesn't hate me and we have two wonderful adult kids who still love us both.

Hi Constance.  It's funny how we all seem to understand our gender at some point, and no matter how hard we fight it we finally accept it. 

I wouldn't turn the clock back for anything.  I may wish I'd started in my 20's, but then I wouldn't have had the chance to raise two wonderful sons, and hold my grandson.  That alone made 40 years denial worth it.

And I'll add that you're looking good in the new avatar there Constance.

Married 27 years, still married, no signs anything will be changing in that detail.

Great to have such an open and accepting wife, and I wish we all could.  But I'll take what comes my way. Good or bad it's out of my hands.

[KabitTarah]

I wouldn't turn the clock back for anything.  I may wish I'd started in my 20's, but then I wouldn't have had the chance to raise two wonderful sons, and hold my grandson.  That alone made 40 years denial worth it.

That's exactly how I think of it too. I really do wish I could have come out and transitioned earlier, but I'd also have to wish to keep my kids... and you can't have both - I choose the kids, now. I realize I would have chosen differently then, but knowing about the pain I'd put others through makes that difference. I couldn't ever choose to hurt the people I love like this.

[Constance]

I think too often, the vows in the ceremony don't mean enough, the sex means too much and people are often too set on seeing the shell as being who we are and not the person inside.

^ This. What's the point of vowing "for better or for worse, till death do us part" if that vow will only be broken later say, "Well, I meant it when I said it." AND, especially after telling me that if I truly loved her I'd always find her attractive no matter what. Heh. It really undermines the concept of a "soul mate."

[KabitTarah]

^ This. What's the point of vowing "for better or for worse, till death do us part" if that vow will only be broken later say, "Well, I meant it when I said it." AND, especially after telling me that if I truly loved her I'd always find her attractive no matter what. Heh. It really undermines the concept of a "soul mate."

I had this argument with my wife. It's wonderful for the people who have it, but unconditional love is very rare.

[Constance]

I had this argument with my wife. It's wonderful for the people who have it, but unconditional love is very rare.

Yeah, I found that out the hard way. And if she'd never said, "I'd never leave you even if you needed to transition," I think we'd still be married. If she'd been honest with herself and with me, things could have been different. Oh, well.

[KabitTarah]

Hey, we were born in the same year

And it sounds like the same marital situation! If it has to end, I hope yours ends amicably.

[Janae]

Janae:   Even if there's already been a lot of answers to your question I'll toss in my two cents.  But I'll give you a hug first because you're young and have so much to look forward to in this paradigm where you can find wonderful love and acceptance.  Yeah, I'm very envious.

So, the simple answer is  - because "We fell in love."   

The long answer is - We grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.  There was no resource for being trans, and no one talked about it other than to debase and humiliate anyone like us.  Trans individuals were considered queers, ->-bleeped-<-gots, deviants, or child molesters.  I was only beaten up a couple times, and suffered only one forced sexual act (rape) but others went through much more torture, and at times it's a wonder any of us survived.   So we learned to live in society for self protection, and we had to find a social group that provided some acceptance of our weird body language and speech patterns.  It was either a conscious decision or something that just came to us.  So we lived our lives as born, and hid everything inside or in closets.  We had no choice, and yet at some point we found someone to fall in love with. 

Hugs again hon.  K

Thanks for the reply Kathy.

I think you summed up what I wanted to know, and I liked your response the best. I was thinking it had to be some generational factors at play and you just confirmed this. Being younger and growing up in the 80's 90's to early 2000's things were a lot different for me and girls my age. My first experience of transwomen was from shows like Jerry Springer, Jenny Jones and Ricki Lake. Even though they are all bad examples of transwomen, they were my only reference point. I started wearing girls clothes at 14. By the time I was 16 I was going out as a girl regularly with friends. Early on I used to go out with my mom as a girl and she was in shock that people couldn't tell. I naturally don't have strong male features so I passed the majority of the time. Even at 30 I look pretty much they same as I did as a teen and in my 20's.

I always knew I wanted to change I just wasn't aware of how. Puberty didn't help my efforts and was a major reason for my delay. One day I very fortunate run in with a trans girl in high school. She was cute and passable and my age we did everything together. This was only in 1999. She had the life I wanted. She was living as a girl, going to school and dating as a girl seamlessly. She helped me to realize that there was a way to change. I also got to know a lot of girls in their teens, 20's and 30's who were already living as women in my city, which only made me want to transition even more. In my city growing up it was nothing to be out at the clubs or over at a friends or just out and see young transgirls everywhere. Most of us grew up together so everyone knew everyone.

Most of us didn't have the same pressures & obstacles, So it was a lot easier transitioning in the past 20yrs compared to earlier times. After reading your post in a way I better understand the paths older transwomen felt they had to take before realizing their true selves. Thanks again for your post.

[Eva Marie]

Well, crap. I found out tonight that my wife wants to separate and I know that's going to be the first step toward a divorce 

Finding out that you are transsexual later in life sucks.

[Lesley_Roberta]

I am seriously unsure where my life would have gone relationship wise if I had known I was a woman before I had ever met my wife.

Logic says I would never have gotten married to a woman.

Logic says I would have likely aimed for a male.

I've always been ruled by logic.

I've always liked females though sexually.

And I have had intense mysandry for most of my life thanks to most of what I have learned intellectually over the years.

I think I'd have stayed single, and I am not sure I'd still be alive dealing with fybromyalgia alone.

Knowing something early on is not always a good thing or an easy thing.

[kathyk]

Well, crap. I found out tonight that my wife wants to separate and I know that's going to be the first step toward a divorce 

Finding out that you are transsexual later in life sucks.

So sorry Eva.  I totally sympathize with you since my therapist always says to be ready for the worst, even if it never comes along.  And yet I know I'll never be prepared if it happens.