Male Privilege?

[KabitTarah]

Things are slowly changing for the better... but I think that no one will ever quite see male/female privilege in quite the way the trans community does.  Is this one of the areas where we are uniquely qualified to contribute to a better, more equal future?

I believe so!! I only have glimpses, but I think we're the most unique group of feminists out there!

[pretty pauline]

Yeah I'm sure everything there is to say has already been said on this forum.

Sure has https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.msg531834.html#msg531834
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73134.msg515005.html#msg515005
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,69490.msg472662.html#msg472662
thats just a few links, I'm use to it now, guys explaining everything to me as if my brain was very small, some guys think a woman's brain doesn't think much further than nail polish, hair color, makeup, shoes and shopping, men just don't want to discuss technical stuff with women, thats my experience, but when the technical stuff breaks down, I just sit back and let them at it.

[anjaq]

I think I did not experience much of that, as with other relatively young transitioners (I was 23, some now are in their teens) we dropped that privilege before it showed itself clearly. But yes of course there was some earlier on. I got the bigger room in the house than my sister, I could go home alone in the dark after a long night out and not fear much and that was about it. So it bugs me a lot if some feminists claim all transwomen have had male privilege or even still have "residual male privilege". I don't. When I transitioned I was broke, without many friends, my family was not talking to me much and I had no higher education. I got from that to where I am now without male privilege. But yes of course it does exist and it is often invisible and the longer we lived as male, the more we benefitted from it.

[missy1992]

There are many "privileges." As was stated earlier, the ultimate privilege is to now know you have it. Do you, as a white person, ever get stared at by the corner store clerk when you enter a store? Does a male get a better deal at the mechanics than his wife? We can divide it even further; butch woman or effeminate gay man, protestant vs catholic (in certain parts of the word), Sunni or Shi'ite etc.
A myth I would like to see crushed is that MTFs experience male privilege. Do MTFs really? You are being told your entire life NOT to act a certain way, NOT to play with barbies, NOT to express your emotions, NOT to be week etc, etc. What you are experiencing, as a woman, is the vile oppression of the patriarchal society which the vast majority of us live in. You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter. What a lot of people cannot grasp is that this male privilege, though real, does not apply to trans people. We are as oppressed as our other sisters.

[KabitTarah]

There are many "privileges." As was stated earlier, the ultimate privilege is to now know you have it. Do you, as a white person, ever get stared at by the corner store clerk when you enter a store? Does a male get a better deal at the mechanics than his wife? We can divide it even further; butch woman or effeminate gay man, protestant vs catholic (in certain parts of the word), Sunni or Shi'ite etc.
A myth I would like to see crushed is that MTFs experience male privilege. Do MTFs really? You are being told your entire life NOT to act a certain way, NOT to play with barbies, NOT to express your emotions, NOT to be week etc, etc. What you are experiencing, as a woman, is the vile oppression of the patriarchal society which the vast majority of us live in. You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter. What a lot of people cannot grasp is that this male privilege, though real, does not apply to trans people. We are as oppressed as our other sisters.

We are still able to take advantage of it, while closeted and presenting male. We don't enjoy it... but we do get many of the advantages bestowed on men. It's not something you get consciously.

I wonder how much we lose just by being out to ourselves and some others, but presenting male. Undergoing aspects of transition? How much does our changing body language affect our privilege? How much does our change in appearance affect it? Privilege is not a conscious thing - nobody bestows it because they decide to do so. At some point the privilege is withdrawn completely or in part. Most of us probably only had a part of it, anyway (a big part, perhaps... but I never saved a lot on cars or auto repairs).

[brianna1016]

The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not .

Interesting. Well apparently I still have male privileges then because I was and still am unaware of them. I guess people still see me as a man.

[brianna1016]

I'm not sure I ever bothered to use male privilege.  I have always relied on "irascible, nerdy, curmudgeonly, very large person privilege".  Not sure I'll continue with that personna, but I think it would be a direct translation.  Hmmm.

I like your style   I guess some of us earn the privileges we have by the result of our actions.

[Shakti]

The biggest male privilege ever is not to be aware of its existence, btw. And there is a grain of truth in that statement, believe or not .

This is true. Though I was extremely feminine as a guy, and I don't think I had very much of it, I had many of the sterotypical examples of lack of male privilege happen to me while I was still living as a guy. Also I think that the fact that I only spent 2-3 years in the adult world (and never in the business world) before transition was probablly a big factor as well.

[Tessa James]

I'm not sure I ever bothered to use male privilege.  I have always relied on "irascible, nerdy, curmudgeonly, very large person privilege".  Not sure I'll continue with that personna, but I think it would be a direct translation.  Hmmm.

LOL thanks Joules!  And seriously there are other kinds of privilege as many have noted including race, height and outright aggression.  Being well educated is a privilege that doesn't seem to hurt either?

[brianna1016]

You cannot really "enjoy" the privilege of being male because you are an imposter.

That's kinda the point I was originally making. I think you said it better

[brianna1016]

I believe so!! I only have glimpses, but I think we're the most unique group of feminists out there!

awesome I totally agree and feel blessed

[brianna1016]

I think the younger generation (the teenagers of today) are completely removing the worn out stereotypical gender roles that came before them. This is both exciting and worrisome to me. As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?

[anjaq]

As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?

The fact that in most cases they are not is the whole issue. Male privilege would not be considered a bad thing if it was not linked to the position males have in this society. And yes, it is changing, feminism did achieve a lot since the 1960ies, but its not really done yet. Male privilege itself would be just like white privilege or female privilege or any other privilege that exists in that it gains access to some things not open to others (and usually is linked to the denial of access to other things). The problem is in the fact that for some of these privileges the gain far outweights the losses and to claim that our societies are already equal in terms of gender privileges is delusional. In some circles yes - in many academia places the differences have eroded quite a bit, in other areas not so much really. So the main thrust in the feminism fight is still patriarchy meaning that still being male has way more advantages in leading an independent life as an individual within this society compared to being female. This includes but is not solely based on stuff like the fears we have when walking alone at night, the occurence of sexual assaults, the wage differences, the ability to have certain jobs etc. In an egalitarian society, male privilege would cease to be a problem.

[KabitTarah]

I think the younger generation (the teenagers of today) are completely removing the worn out stereotypical gender roles that came before them. This is both exciting and worrisome to me. As for male privilege, I still believe its a myth What people are describing is minority stress. A wife and husband at an auto-shop for example. What if the mechanics were women?

Women are not a minority, though perhaps "minority stress" should really be "underprivileged stress." Minority stress is a physical condition caused by the underprivileged social condition, not a social condition itself. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress.

Privilege is real. It does not mean that anyone who is privileged didn't earn what they got... it just means that extraordinary effort from someone underprivileged is required to earn the same position (and then it may still be denied). I hate the argument that says those with privilege didn't earn what they got... and it seems to be one of the more popular arguments (yeah... let's change this by making the ruling class angry, defensive...)

Privilege takes many, many forms... some of which cannot and should not be fixed. I did not have to work as hard in school - not because I'm white or MAAB, but because I'm better than average at school. I'm not bragging, I'm privileged. It's an accident of birth, rather than birth in society. And it's not that big a privilege, either. It helped in a lot of ways, but the bullies come after smart kids too. Socially it may be pretty neutral... I'm not good at or into sports, which is a bigger privilege in many ways.

Being transgender, or cis female, or a racial minority, or homosexual are all accidents of birth. It's the social problem that comes with these innate and unchangeable conditions that make up privilege. It's not an easily noticeable problem to those who fall on the other side of the condition. It's often not noticed by those who have the innate condition - how many women do you know who think they should be in the kitchen (especially those of older generations)? They were taught that those things are right and natural, and they believe it - just look at female Tea Party politicians and their statements for proof.

The big problems for cis women have been mostly fixed in America. They're able to do just about anything they choose. They have to work harder to achieve the same amount, but they can do it. Privilege, for women or many recognized minority groups, mostly takes a role of micro aggressions that both sides accept as natural. Roles are influenced by the media, or toy stores, or any number of societal differences. Teen role models also influence gender roles. These influences and aggressions are what put women and minorities in a lower caste than white men.

The big problems for LGBTIQ people have not been mostly fixed... and the big problems are worst for those of us under the "T" umbrella. We are still portrayed on TV as black people would have been 70 years ago ("To Kill A Mockingbird" best illustrates this historical role - though it doesn't fall prey to it, of course). Transgender people are evil or freaks in the media, and I don't see that changing.

I've even given up on "The Big Bang Theory." It used to be about science - and the jokes were science friendly... then the season premier had them freaking out about some estrogen they ingested. I mean... they're supposed to be scientific and understand just about everything in science... name me one person like that who'd think one tiny dose of estrogen would start breast growth. Gender is polarizing and misunderstood in all aspects of our life.

[dalebert]

In extremely over-simplified terms, I would say the core of male privilege is a certain amount of respect by default although you can quickly lose it by not living up to male expectations--being a provider/producer (making phat cash), competitive, tough and/or violent when society wants you to be (like in the military or police or coming to the defense of a woman who is threatened), risking or sacrificing yourself for women or children, things like that. The core of female privilege is a certain amount of inherent value by default--women's lives and well-being are treated as more precious--which you can lose by not living up to female expectations like being pretty, submissive, nurturing, and so forth.

[Tessa James]

Well, we could discuss the biggest source of privilege on the planet IMHO, WEALTH!

Some male privilege results in inequitable payment for doing the same jobs.  Wealthy nations bristle with armaments and project power with ships and missiles.  Directing wealth is power and privilege no matter the sex or gender of the director?  How many people here do not not have the power/wealth to realize their transition dreams?

Not to derail an interesting thread but isn't wealth the most tangible and objective measurement of privilege?

It seems we are unable to read minds or precisely know another's motivation.   If someone assists us, say opens a door for me because they think I am a weak woman but I think they are just being helpful, is it not beauty or projection in the eyes of the beholder once again?

And yes some of us are lucky enough to be born into all kinds of privilege.  What we do with it matters most?

[KabitTarah]

Well, we could discuss the biggest source of privilege on the planet IMHO, WEALTH!

Some male privilege results in inequitable payment for doing the same jobs.  Wealthy nations bristle with armaments and project power with ships and missiles.  Directing wealth is power and privilege no matter the sex or gender of the director?  How many people here do not not have the power/wealth to realize their transition dreams?

Not to derail an interesting thread but isn't wealth the most tangible and objective measurement of privilege?

It seems we are unable to read minds or precisely know another's motivation.   If someone assists us, say opens a door for me because they think I am a weak woman but I think they are just being helpful, is it not beauty or projection in the eyes of the beholder once again?

And yes some of us are lucky enough to be born into all kinds of privilege.  What we do with it matters most?

Yes! Being born into wealth guides more of your future than anything else! It's the ultimate privilege.

I don't think motivation matters. I would never degrade a woman - even at the height of my assumed maleness - yet I know I've been part of micro aggressions toward women. It's not often a conscious act. I also don't think many courteous or chivalrous acts promote degradation of women. Certainly not holding open a door - which I'll hardly notice at work since guys do that for guys all the time in my office... it's just a nice thing to do. (I'm almost expecting the opposite - where they'll purposefully shut the door in my face that would be a conscious, and physical, micro aggression)

I'm thinking more along the lines of assuming someone can't do something or feels a certain way or would do something a certain way simply because they're female. This is evident in speech and comes across as micro aggression. The extreme cases are in auto repair and IT - where the men who work there often assume women don't know anything and either take advantage of that assumption (by charging more or offering unnecessary services) or belittle the women requesting the service.

[KabitTarah]

A microcosmic example of a functional society that fascinates me is the habit of a flock of geese when flying.  The familiar wedge shape serves a functional purpose to assist the flock on a long flight.  Rather than each individual member having to break wind, only the lead goose does so, the resulting benefit of the air already moving and rolling backwards makes the flight easier for the rest of the flock.

The lead position will be traded off among the physically stronger members, so that no one goose has to endure the more punishing task of breaking wind.  Guess what?  The lead position is always occupied by males (ganders).  It seems likely that the greater physical strength of the male form is better suited to this important task.

What if "gander equality" became an issue, and the female geese insisted that all geese fly in parallel?  The view is better, no more looking at the behind of the goose ahead, and the air is sweeter as it's no longer roiling off the sweaty male body of the lead goose.  (I made that up, I doubt if geese sweat).

Although there is no way of knowing, it seems intuitive that the social status of flying lead would carry some percs.  When arriving at the watering hole, the ganders who served as lead would have first crack at the better access points, as they would have greater need for hydration.  The same thinking could be applied to resting for the night, comfy locations would go first to the ganders so that they could be rested for the next day.  Finding a choice field of grain would mean preferential feeding for the lead ganders.

...which is not anti-feminist. If a woman is not physically able to do something, or out of courtesy, a man offering to help is not an anti-feminist or male-privileged act.

It brings up the question though:

Why is one side of the "V" of geese longer than the other?

[Robin Mack]

Attitude also has an impact on the wage difference thing... I can tell you from my personal experience that I have made more money when I tried my damndest to present "alpha male" and *demand* that I be better compensated.

This was, obviously, not an easy thing for me.  I don't like to make waves, I certainly don't enjoy presenting as male, alpha or otherwise.  I have on occasion (discovered later when I had the position of authority to review employee files on taking a VP placeholder position) been able to confirm that at times I have made less than more assertive females at similar levels of employment. 

So, it would appear at least some "male privilege" is the result of social conditioning of males to expect and demand more... and that women can employ this to their advantage too, if they are willing.  But we first must overcome the conditioning that tells us to not make waves, to doubt our abilities, and to differ to others even when we know we are right.  Interestingly, support sites for women in business also mention these things.  Perhaps, as women with unique perspective we in the trans community can help here, too?

Here's hoping... women have come a *long* way thanks to our forebears, but we have a long way to go, too.  Wouldn't it be lovely if the trans community were to be part of the final push to true equality? 

[KabitTarah]

Is this a rhetorical question kabit? 

I don't know that answer.  Perhaps it's a question of politics...

There's more geese on that side.