Primary and secondary

[Rachael]

discussing whos more dysphoric doesnt get us to the root of what primary and secondery actually means...

[Rachael]

whats a real transexual or a fake one?
are some transexuals made of pappier mache and washingup liquid bottles?


OMG BLUEPETER ->-bleeped-<-S! RUN!

[Manyfaces]

whats a real transexual or a fake one?
are some transexuals made of pappier mache and washingup liquid bottles?


OMG BLUEPETER ->-bleeped-<-S! RUN!

LOL.

If I'm to be a fake, I definitely want to be made of papier mache.  I love papier mache!

[Sarah Louise]

Here is a page that gives "one" definition of Primary and Secondary.

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/primary.html

Sarah L.

[Maud]

I think this is all irrelevant as I'm clearly ->-bleeped-<-r than thou.


Why does this even matter? if someone transitions and is happy with it then good for them, I don't see why you should all judge them unless it's for a valid reason like being batsh*t crazy which is down to the individual.

I really don't like seeing a group branded as being a bunch of loonies even if statistically speaking they are more likely to be mental, it's just an unhealthy mentality to make it "them and us" with any group, we're all just people when it comes down to it.

[Sarah Louise]

I agree Mawd, it is irrelevant, but the topic just seems to keep going and going.

Certain terms or words just seem overly important and personal to us.

No matter the definition, the word, etc., I am a woman.


Sarah L.

[Shana A]

if one can repress the feelings, are they that strong?

Yes! I've read psychological case histories, and it's truly amazing the abuse and trauma that some people have lived through, with no conscious recollection of it whatsoever. The human mind has its ways of coping, although sooner or later, stuff is going to come up from the sub conscious, and when it does, look out! Whoooooosh!

zythyra

[taru]

And here is a third story.

As a baby - don't know as noone has told about it.

As a child identifies clearly not-male, but does not think it is possible to be physically female as the physical differences are obvious and there is no magic (and no knowledge about trans-issues). Does not fit in the age group but finds ways to make the adults happy. Being with boys does not work and being with girls is just too painful.

In school opts for an genderless role with no interest in other people. Does well academically and finds ways to avoid gender-specific slots where being female is not tolerated, and is female where it has no devastating consequences. Learns to be a excellent liar and makes and art of conning people.

Puberty hits and results in substance abuse and finding other ways that hurt so GID would not hurt in such an obvious way (abusive relationships etc). The conning skills helps and goes through the rest of school with problematic people not seeing the GID.

As a young adult has a very feminine role and does not present male. After a few years transitions (20-30 years of age).



This seems to fit neither of the classes but is still very real for some people. Thus the binary division seems flawed.

[tinkerbell]

we live today, we dont live 30 years ago, i wasnt around then, and we are talking NOW... and i can garuntee that now all trans people will transition in thier teens, and no middle aged people will transition. This isnt just societys fault, but some dysphorias can develop in time, and mental breakdowns can generate dysphorias that arnt even just gender related. its fairly narrow minded to say you couldnt transition young 30 years ago. one could,the curcumstances were just much harder, and im not deneying this. But Dont you dare assume that this is easy now... there arnt support groups everywhere, i cant access hormones for 8 or so years if i followed the NHS,  or surgery, i AM taking ileagal hormones, to keep me alive, and i dont need you to tell me how easy kids have it these days...

Seconded!  It isn't any easier now than it was 50 years ago.   Everyone seems to be fond of the word "assumption" lately.  Well, making an assumption that a young transsexual person has it soooooo easy nowadays is beyond preposterous.  I wonder if those of you who seem to think this way are watching the news, are familiar with transgender kids, or are aware of the statistics of suicide amongst transgender teens.

So you're saying that if my feelings were strong (i.e. "real"), I should have acknowledged them and embraced the idea that I would be sent to the psych ward?  That's an aweful lot to expect of an eight year old. 

What about a six year old in a psych ward, Lisbeth?  Would you like to hear that little boy's story?



BTW Rachael, I'm made of feuilles d'or!

tink

[Maud]

And here is a third story.

As a baby - don't know as noone has told about it.

As a child identifies clearly not-male, but does not think it is possible to be physically female as the physical differences are obvious and there is no magic (and no knowledge about trans-issues). Does not fit in the age group but finds ways to make the adults happy. Being with boys does not work and being with girls is just too painful.

In school opts for an genderless role with no interest in other people. Does well academically and finds ways to avoid gender-specific slots where being female is not tolerated, and is female where it has no devastating consequences. Learns to be a excellent liar and makes and art of conning people.

Puberty hits and results in substance abuse and finding other ways that hurt so GID would not hurt in such an obvious way (abusive relationships etc). The conning skills helps and goes through the rest of school with problematic people not seeing the GID.

As a young adult has a very feminine role and does not present male. After a few years transitions (20-30 years of age).



This seems to fit neither of the classes but is still very real for some people. Thus the binary division seems flawed.

Bingo.

'cept i transitioned at 18

[Keira]

The problem with refusing to wear pant thing is that you have to realize that pants are actually not a women's thing. what if your mother wears them all the time, works, is the one driving the car (not your dad), is the assertive one, etc. What if your parents and everyone around you defy female stereotypes and you watch 2-3 hours of very selective TV a week (most of those being sesame street when I was young), how on earth could being put in pants ever traumatize you then.

My mother always bought me very nice clothes, good material, with little vests and much colors (it was the 70's); no one else dressed like that. The fashion for men's hair was long and I had long hair (shoulder length) from age 2 to age 8; Was consistently taken for a girl during the whole period. If I can get my scanner to work and find a decent one, I may post it. I was the typical tomboy, if your a girl and are a tomboy, why would you feel bad about wearing pants or doing more active activities, with one of my friend, a girl too, 1 used to build snow forts in the winter and we'd stage epic battles. She went into fashion design later, not a very tomboy activity, but she's got such spunk!

I started to notice gender when I first saw the Sound of music on TV, I was about 7 (1974) and somehow (we got our first black and white TV in 1970!), I really identitifed with Liesl and the rest of the girls, especially the 16 going on seventeen song.

The same year, my sister was born, and that jolted me, told me of the existence of gender and different paths!!

Still, I was a tomboy, and even though I got steadily bullied from 7 onward, I wasn't sure why, even though epiteth relating to being gay abounded in my direction (since this was preburty, I suppose it was because I was always with the girls in class and after class.  Again, I didn't really feel different from the girls even if I didn't wear skirts, many of them didn't wear skirts at my school and had active activities. I was first in gymnastics, beeting all the girls, for several years (I was always good in all sports, beating males, females, aliens :-).

It was only at puberty when I was totally left behind by my friends who left tomboyhood, leaving me alone and dawning on all the implications and my fate!!

[Thundra]

I think this is all irrelevant as I'm clearly ->-bleeped-<-r than thou.

Cute!   

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/primary.html

This was a load of claptrap too.

I can see the P'soV being exchanged here, and I agree with some of it, but I still take issure with this either or reasoning. Categories rarely work for people, because people are complex.

Most people are an amalgam of Mary-Elizabeth, not Mary or Elizabeth as cited in this thread.

[Emily Ivy]

And here is a third story.

As a baby - don't know as noone has told about it.

As a child identifies clearly not-male, but does not think it is possible to be physically female as the physical differences are obvious and there is no magic (and no knowledge about trans-issues). Does not fit in the age group but finds ways to make the adults happy. Being with boys does not work and being with girls is just too painful.

In school opts for an genderless role with no interest in other people. Does well academically and finds ways to avoid gender-specific slots where being female is not tolerated, and is female where it has no devastating consequences. Learns to be a excellent liar and makes and art of conning people.

Puberty hits and results in substance abuse and finding other ways that hurt so GID would not hurt in such an obvious way (abusive relationships etc). The conning skills helps and goes through the rest of school with problematic people not seeing the GID.

As a young adult has a very feminine role and does not present male. After a few years transitions (20-30 years of age).



This seems to fit neither of the classes but is still very real for some people. Thus the binary division seems flawed.

This is very close to my story, thanks for bringing this case up 

[seldom]

I have HUGE issues with those storylines because like I said, neither really reflect what I and many others went through.  They are also way too stereotypical.  It is very similar to the DSM storylines which are insulting in most cases. 

For example my storyline:

Ages 3-10
Intense feeling of alienation.  Cannot relate to other boys and is often the target of abuse from other boys.  Emotionally fragile, frequently cries.  Socially isolated.  Feels disconnected from being both male and sometimes human.  Intense disconnect from gender.  Prefers to spend time isolated.  Effiminate behaviors are persistent, but no CD or stated desire to be female, but clear disconnect from male gender.  Frequently daydreams of being a girl.  Subconscious and conscious disconnect.  Exhibits both male and female gender behaviors in play.  Adults persistently perplexed and reactionary towards social problems and behavior.  No real childhood.  Considered to have issues. Gender variant-nondescript.  Often states "I do not know what I am" or thoughts that they are an alien or fairy or ghost. Barriers everywhere psychologically.   

Ages 11-13

Gender consciousness emerges as desiring to be female, not expressed out of fear.  Explicitly states a disconnect from men.  Hates being male.  Target of persistent physical and verbal abuse.  Effiminate behaviors increase.  Hides feelings and desires for fear of further abuse.  Begins dressing in womens clothing regularly in secret. 

Ages 14-22
Still expresses a disconnect from males. Gender identity is female.  Seen as "not a guy" by friends.  Adopts an effeminate/androgynous appearance (jewelry, makeup, whatever can get away with) publicly.  Dresses in feminine attire whenever possible.  Adopting socially as a gender variant.  Makes friends both male and female, however is rarely treated as male.  Sexual and gender identity issues apparent.  Anxiety issues are persistent.  First considerations of gender transition, however fear of social isolation, parental rejection and distrust of psychological field prevents action, in addition to extreme family problems.  Begins making plans for transition later in life and considers it at points in early twenties.  Focuses on education and arts to distract from anxiety and depression.  Consistent problems with intimate relationships with both men and wrong, relationships feel "all wrong".  Has no defined sexual orientation.  Regularly taken as female in everyday life from non-acquaintances.   

Ages 22-27

Multiple breakdowns.  Intense anxiety and occasional depression.  Does not adapt to male gender role despite appearance.  Job performance and graduate school performance is effected. Very little motivation, has persistent issues with sleep.  Has extreme disconnect, often feels like a ghost.  Frequent dressing in female clothing provides little relief from gender issues.  Relationship issues persist.  Sexual intercourse at 27 ends up feeling extremely wrong confirming earlier beliefs, intense psycho sexual inversion (tries to relieve issues of psychological pain through thinking they are female), sexual relations very limited for short amount of time.  Periods of extended social isolation return.  Does not have issues making friends, however is considered nice, but "essentially not male".  Considers transition multiple times but is frightened away by costs due to lack of consistent employment and law school costs. 

Age 28
Begins to evaluate gender transition and decides to seek therapy, deciding that any more extension of "ghost life" is torture.  Begins gender transition.

Sexuality: Asexual (bisexual tendencies)

Basically this storyline does not fit either the primary and secondary storyline.  Yes there was a period of adaptation between 14-22, but it was being an extremely androgynous gender variant, not male.  It kind of proves how there are issues with these narrow storylines of primary and secondary, there is a good deal that is not covered with many TS, because they fall outside both.   

[Buffy]

I have HUGE issues with those storylines because like I said, neither really reflect what I and many others went through.  They are also way too stereotypical.  It is very similar to the DSM storylines which are insulting in most cases. 

Basically this storyline does not fit either the primary and secondary storyline.  Yes there was a period of adaptation between 14-22, but it was being an extremely androgynous gender variant, not male.  It kind of proves how there are issues with these narrow storylines of primary and secondary, there is a good deal that is not covered with many TS, because they fall outside both.   

Perhaps we need another classification Tertiary Transsexual, one who does not fit Primary or Secondary?

Or we could just all be transitioners?

Buffy

[seldom]

Actually there was an academic article and study by contributers to the DSM-V that basically SAID that the Primary and secondary classifications should not be used, because there is very rarely anybody who fits the limited definitions and the classifications are woefully inadequate for diagnosis.  They further stated that the classifications served no good and are based on stereotypes and inaccurate previous studies that were based in awful conditions.  It when further and critiqued Blanchard for coming up with the classifications in the first place, along with Blanchards style clinical methods.

Basically we have to look at the man who came up with these classifications.  He is now considered a hack who was extremely damaging to TS in the Medical field, along with his followers (including Anne Lawrence).  They are widely disparaged by gender specialists. 

[Sarah Louise]

This is only my opinion, but,...

This topic is only destined to continue going in circles with little or no agreement or settlement between the two sides of the discussion.

Hopefully we can agree to disagree and not hurt anyones feelings.


Sarah L.

[Rachael]

wow this is getting heavy, some bubbles are bursting and people dont like it...

i did not go crazy at puberty, i was given no outlet for my femininity, or know what feminity was, just oddness. i was at an all boys school from age 2 till i came to university at 18. i simply knew male, and not male.i didnt know that girls didnt have penises till i was mid teens.... as for the puberty issue, i was largely spared of traumatic things like muscle, facial hair and penis/ testicle growth to an extent. it felt odd, true, but i didnt know there were differences, as i never MET a girl that wasnt related to me, aisde from teachers that wasnt my mother... i knew since ever i wasnt a boy, but not that i was a girl till mid teens. being a nothing was easy to blend to what i had to, and anyone who knows me, and what i went through with my parents and growing up will understand that i had no ability to be a frilly pink little girl.
what does my phsyc report say? 'Clear Primary transexual, no other signs of mental illness'
so evidently its not as simple as being born screaming 'im a girl'

[Rachael]

oh trust me, i had a male body... always had small breasts (acup ish) and bulked up to hide it. and i actually 'tried' at one point to gain muscle...

[Melissa]

First of all, to be perfectly honest, I have not kept up on this topic.  However, I did scan it, so I have an idea of where the discussion went.

What is the point of declaring that some people are primary or secondary?  Are you saying that secondary transsexuals don't have a right to transition?  As far as I'm concerned *everybody* has the right to transition and only as far as they want.  That is, as long as the person is realistically prepared to deal with the ramifications of transitioning.  I just don't like people regretting transitioning because they started out with unrealistic expectations and then proselytizing about removal of medical treatment for other transsexuals.

The purpose of the primary/secondary transsexuals (antiquated terms from the 60's and 70's) was to try and define who could and could not transition.  It was completely theoretical and is now disregarded by most competent therapists, because the theories were flawed.  You can classify people as one or the other, but in the end it really has no bearing on anything at all these days other than to try and make others feel bad about themselves by people who happened to fit the archaic definitions.

I give them no credence, so they have zero bearing on me.  When I first started transitioning, all they did was confuse me because I never clearly fit one or the other.  The conclusion I reached is that many people won't cleanly fall into a box due to flawed definitions and they end up creating more confusion than any benefit they may provide.