On the born female perspective

[ErinM]

Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

I realize that you do not mean to offend or to call into the question the authenticity of trans women. The simple fact remains that I as a MAAB person did experience male privilege to some degree. and I do not know what it is like to grow up as a FAAB individual and never will beyond an academic level. I also that will always set me apart from my cisgendered sisters.

That being said, I do feel that there is an underestimation of the effect growing up MAAB with either a lack of masculinity or even feminine traits. My earliest memories were an intense paranoia that I wasn't "being a boy" right. 99% of the crap I took from peers growing up was my behaviour, not my appearance, and almost exclusively from the girls. It didn't help that teachers would either turn a blind eye or even contribute. Then of course there was the portrayal of trans feminine people in the media . . .

The thing for me was that "second class" seemed like one heck of a promotion over "bottom of the barrel".  For me that is something that I will likely carry through my life as well.

[Nero]

Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

I realize that you do not mean to offend or to call into the question the authenticity of trans women. The simple fact remains that I as a MAAB person did experience male privilege to some degree. and I do not know what it is like to grow up as a FAAB individual and never will beyond an academic level. I also that will always set me apart from my cisgendered sisters.

That being said, I do feel that there is an underestimation of the effect growing up MAAB with either a lack of masculinity or even feminine traits. My earliest memories were an intense paranoia that I wasn't "being a boy" right. 99% of the crap I took from peers growing up was my behaviour, not my appearance, and almost exclusively from the girls. It didn't help that teachers would either turn a blind eye or even contribute. Then of course there was the portrayal of trans feminine people in the media . . .

The thing for me was that "second class" seemed like one heck of a promotion over "bottom of the barrel".  For me that is something that I will likely carry through my life as well.

Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

[ErinM]

Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps I've been failing to see then analogy because the difference between racism and domestic abuse is quite a bit wider then what wee are talking about here. Those address two different issues, where as gender issues seem to always boiled down to how society values masculinity in the right context, namely males.

Where I'm going with this is that while being female is considered the lessor in society, being a feminine MAAB is even lower in many regards. At least that was my prospective growing up.

[Nero]

Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps I've been failing to see then analogy because the difference between racism and domestic abuse is quite a bit wider then what wee are talking about here. Those address two different issues, where as gender issues seem to always boiled down to how society values masculinity in the right context, namely males.

Where I'm going with this is that while being female is considered the lessor in society, being a feminine MAAB is even lower in many regards. At least that was my prospective growing up.

Well, what I'm saying basically is that white kids in the US may have horrible lives but that's different from racism. Like even if a male child is abused for being feminine, this is not quite the same thing as what it is to experience sexism for female children. Like in my example, the male child may have a harder life, but this doesn't mean the female child with a comparatively better life didn't experience sexism because she is female.

Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

[ErinM]

Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

I would agree that the experiences are not the same and would never mean to imply otherwise. However they do come from the same attitudes that society holds towards masculinity and femininity and I think that we could also agree on that.

It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when to is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

I guess I should have addressed this earlier as well to explain what I mean. It is because if the crap that I received that I did see a freedom in being female. For me it would have meant being able to grow up free to express who I was instead of learning to hate and despise it. By far the most difficult part of my transition has been letting go of all the inhibitions and everything I have done to attempt to suppress myself.

(Edited to fix autocorrect)

[Heather]

I don't think I look at my childhood with regret. While I did spend a lot of my early years praying I would wake up in a female body I think I've actually been pretty lucky. I had a family that loved me and I did have some honestly great times growing up.
But I can in all honesty say I don't know what it's like to be raised a female and the struggles that go with it. I know I had it pretty lucky because I didn't have to worry about my value being based off my looks. I didn't have to worry about some perverted old guys hitting on me.
Being a woman is hard and in the short time I have been living as one I can say without a doubt it's more challenging. Is it worth it to me yes because I believe I'm living my life as myself. But a few months living as a woman can't ever compare to a lifetime worth of experiences.
What I have found out is that unless your young and attractive men for the most part ignore you. I've experienced what it's like to be treated like your totally clueless and need a mans help.  I could go on and I'm sure as the months turn into years I'll find plenty of other complaints. And I will put up with them just like any other woman. I may not have had an F on my birth certificate but I live as a woman and I am a woman. And while I know it's not all fun and games and it's certainly not about how I look or dress. But I do know I'm no better or no worse than any other woman I just have a little less experience.

[Nero]

I don't think I look at my childhood with regret. While I did spend a lot of my early years praying I would wake up in a female body I think I've actually been pretty lucky. I had a family that loved me and I did have some honestly great times growing up.
But I can in all honesty say I don't know what it's like to be raised a female and the struggles that go with it. I know I had it pretty lucky because I didn't have to worry about my value being based off my looks. I didn't have to worry about some perverted old guys hitting on me.
Being a woman is hard and in the short time I have been living as one I can say without a doubt it's more challenging. Is it worth it to me yes because I believe I'm living my life as myself. But a few months living as a woman can't ever compare to a lifetime worth of experiences.
What I have found out is that unless your young and attractive men for the most part ignore you. I've experienced what it's like to be treated like your totally clueless and need a mans help.  I could go on and I'm sure as the months turn into years I'll find plenty of other complaints. And I will put up with them just like any other woman. I may not have had an F on my birth certificate but I live as a woman and I am a woman. And while I know it's not all fun and games and it's certainly not about how I look or dress. But I do know I'm no better or no worse than any other woman I just have a little less experience.

Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean. 

Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

I would agree that the experiences are not the same and would never mean to imply otherwise. However they do come from the same attitudes that society holds towards masculinity and femininity and I think that we could also agree on that.

It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when to is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

I guess I should have addressed this earlier as well to explain what I mean. It is because if the crap that I received that I did see a freedom in being female. For me it would have meant being able to grow up free to express who I was instead of learning to hate and despise it. By far the most difficult part of my transition has been letting go of all the inhibitions and everything I have done to attempt to suppress myself.

(Edited to fix autocorrect)

I can relate to that. For me, there were a lot of limitations in being female. And while controversial, acknowledging this is part of my own journey. I could go on and be all macho and act like being born female never affected me, but that would be a lie. And it's not just being the wrong gender. It's being born the 'wrong' gender. As in the second. The other. The one the Bible says was made as an afterthought because the first one was lonely. So we were made out of the rib of, you know, the hero. The important one. This is huge. And heavily impacts every child born as this 'other'. Whether they have a 'female' brain or not.

[Heather]

Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean. 

I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade.

[Hikari]

I think it would be undeniable that FTMs would have a certain enhanced perspective on how it is to be raised a girl, and the reverse is true of the MTFs....I don't think that necessarily lends itself to be a totally accurate perspective however, I know I picked up a few things being raised as a boy, but I could hardly be said to really know the true male experience. I am not trying to knock anyone's experience just saying that we view things thru the lense of our own life.

I am just saying that I mean, I am not even accurate to things in my own life, I can pull out a journal from 5 years ago and read about something, and be just absolutely amazed by how inaccurate my current memories are of that event. This is why, I am hesitant to take anything people say, especially those in a different stage of life than I am in, at face value. This also makes me....skeptical about even my own advice if it is based on something not current.

I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can now and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

I think we have lots to learn from each other, but I wouldn't go so far as to be critical of the views others hold on what being a woman means to them even if it isn't what being a woman means to me.

[Nero]

Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean. 

I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade.

Ending up female is definitely lemons! lol Just kidding.

Oh, I'm probably going to wake up in the morning and want to delete this thread. But honestly, I feel it has been therapeutic. My identity is of a man, so yeah it pains me to even talk about being born female and how that affected me. Gah! It seems the longer I live as a man, the less attached to it I am. I'm just attached now to my humanity and my history. Knowing myself. Healing myself. Understanding what I do and what I think. And why. This being born female thing and the affect it had on me, well I can't deny it. I've got to examine it. Understand it.

[Heather]

I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade.


Ending up female is definitely lemons! lol Just kidding.

Oh, I'm probably going to wake up in the morning and want to delete this thread. But honestly, I feel it has been therapeutic. My identity is of a man, so yeah it pains me to even talk about being born female and how that affected me. Gah! It seems the longer I live as a man, the less attached to it I am. I'm just attached now to my humanity and my history. Knowing myself. Healing myself. Understanding what I do and what I think. And why. This being born female thing and the affect it had on me, well I can't deny it. I've got to examine it. Understand it.

FA I hope you don't delete this thread it's a good one. We try so hard to move on we sometimes forget that the gender we were born into is always going to be a big part of our lives. The time I spent being raised as a male helped shape the woman I am today. And I doubt you would be the man you are today if it wasn't for that time spent as a female. To be honest I wish they're was more men like you that can understand a woman's perspective.

[ErinM]

I can relate to that. For me, there were a lot of limitations in being female. And while controversial, acknowledging this is part of my own journey. I could go on and be all macho and act like being born female never affected me, but that would be a lie. And it's not just being the wrong gender. It's being born the 'wrong' gender. As in the second. The other. The one the Bible says was made as an afterthought because the first one was lonely. So we were made out of the rib of, you know, the hero. The important one. This is huge. And heavily impacts every child born as this 'other'. Whether they have a 'female' brain or not.

I can appreciate what you are saying. Putting up with sexism and being forced into a gender role you don't identify with would serve as a double-whammy.

I do think its great that you had the fortitude to bring this topic up. It has given me more to think about as I try to reconcile my identity and my upbringing.

[Nero]

I think it would be undeniable that FTMs would have a certain enhanced perspective on how it is to be raised a girl, and the reverse is true of the MTFs....I don't think that necessarily lends itself to be a totally accurate perspective however, I know I picked up a few things being raised as a boy, but I could hardly be said to really know the true male experience. I am not trying to knock anyone's experience just saying that we view things thru the lense of our own life.

I am just saying that I mean, I am not even accurate to things in my own life, I can pull out a journal from 5 years ago and read about something, and be just absolutely amazed by how inaccurate my current memories are of that event. This is why, I am hesitant to take anything people say, especially those in a different stage of life than I am in, at face value. This also makes me....skeptical about even my own advice if it is based on something not current.

I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can now and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

I think we have lots to learn from each other, but I wouldn't go so far as to be critical of the views others hold on what being a woman means to them even if it isn't what being a woman means to me.

Well, you're right, I think trans folk probably do have a skewed perspective. But cis or trans, female born people do get a different experience. The main point I'm trying to make is there is a difference. That female born kids (regardless of internal wiring) are seen and treated differently. And it's more than just gender. Boy babies and girl babies are not on an equal plane. There is a difference growing up in the world when you're seen as having drawn the short straw. That's all I'm saying.

[Lady_Oracle]

Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

[Nero]

Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

That was touching. But it doesn't have much to do with the topic.    I'm not talking male privilege. I'm not talking anything about what trans girls experience at all. I'm talking about what it's like to be born into the 'lesser sex'.  As much as they may have wished to be, trans girls are not born into this. I'm not doubting that being a trans girl is different than the cis male experience. But it is not the same as being recognized at birth as belonging to the lesser sex.

[Lady_Oracle]

ahhh sorry, should of made a thread for that like my gut was telling me too smh.. But yeah I agree with what you're talking about. It is true, just hope society moves to true equality one day..

[Nero]

ahhh sorry, should of made a thread for that like my gut was telling me too smh.. But yeah I agree with what you're talking about. It is true, just hope society moves to true equality one day..

You can still make the thread. I bet it'll be interesting. That was an interesting link.

[Arch]

To be honest I wish they're was more men like you that can understand a woman's perspective.

I think you should be careful when assigning a "woman's perspective" to a trans man. I certainly would never tell a trans woman that she has a male perspective. She may know what it's like to be treated as male, and she may know how to talk the talk, but that certainly doesn't mean she has a male perspective.

People who know my history frequently tell me that I have a female or woman's perspective...but they are clearly just assuming that I do. I figure that if I did have such an understanding, I wouldn't have needed to transition. I didn't have a woman's perspective because I was not a woman. Even when I was trying very hard, I was just going through the motions and didn't understand how "other" women could do what I was trying to do or think the way I knew I was supposed to think. People familiar with my past merely assume that because I was seen as female, I experienced life as a woman. I didn't. I experienced life as an FTM trans person. So I didn't have a woman's perspective. Other guys' mileage may vary, of course.

The funny thing is that people, mostly women, who DON'T know my history often see specific things I say and do as very typically male. The women I meet tend to be pretty free with remarks such as "Of course you've never felt that way--you're a man!" and "Typical male thing to say." But pre-transition, I received criticism or stunned silence when I said these "typically male" things--because I didn't have the typically female perspective.

[Cindy]

Very interesting thread, I, as some of you know am a professionally powerful woman, would I have been that if I was natal female?

I don't think I would have.

My fellow natal female professionals do struggle in what is still a male dominated life. We, they do have to try harder to have a voice and push ourselves forward. I'm NOT saying that my fellow male professionals are in anyway demeaning of me, or of natal females. But they do carry the aura of respect far easier than the women.

Why? We have similar training, we have similar IQ, yes there is a career difference in that many natal females have taken time off to have and to nurture children. The so called career interruption that many men (sadly for some) miss. But in virtually all cases none of the woman I know regret this.

Looking at my transgender colleagues who are powerful, defined as having high profile jobs and who are involved in high profile events, are transgender women who had 'male' upbringing, and all went through male puberty and hence their bodies are to some extent destroyed as being feminine because of it. Few of us (the people I know) pass well as feminine women, and few of us care.
The powerful FtM men I know are fewer, and blend into the masculine life far better than the women do into female society.

It raises a question, do transgender women push themselves harder to succeed and transmen are more content to blend in? Or is it a reflection of societal upbringing as boys and girls that define what we do in life?

[Nero]

Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.