[incoherent ramble] Yet Another "What Am I?" "What Am I not?" post

[Asche]

Just feel like babbling.

I was thinking (again) about where I feel myself (as opposed to "see myself") with this whole gender thing.  I guess where I am is that I don't at all identify with being male.  No, "don't ... identify" is too weak.  I utterly reject and am repulsed by masculinity and all the baggage that is tied, glued, welded to being male.

On the other hand, I can't bring myself to see myself as female, even on the inside.  It feels too much like appropriation -- like when white USAans put on moccasins and feathers and sleep in teepees and perform rituals they learned from Disney cartoons and convince themselves they're indians.

While I don't have the urge to cut off parts of my body, I can't say I like having a male body.  It's just what I have, and the only realistic alternative seems to be to not exist at all, so I live with it (but I don't take good care of it, either.)

But sometimes -- sometimes, in the dark, in the middle of the night, when nobody's around -- I wonder what it would be like if I could magically be transformed into a woman, with the kind of body I might have had had I gotten two X chromosomes instead of one.  If I could walk through a Door (SF reference) and become the only alternative my conspecifics would accept as human, with no possibility of coming back, would I?  Change, especially changing myself, frightens me.  On the other hand, I feel like I've nothing to stay for.  Maleness is a vast, barren waste, which has nothing to recommend it other than being better than being dead.

Maybe.

But maybe, if actually offered the choice, I'd hold back and just stand there, unwilling to go back but too afraid to go forward, a little like the souls in the antechamber of Dante's hell who in life lacked the courage to be either good or evil, so now they aren't allowed into heaven but hell won't have them either.

Is that what "none of the above" really means?

[Jessica Merriman]

You need to find a good Therapist with gender experience and get their read on this, otherwise the confusion will only compound. You need a good non biased person to help you with this. 

[saint]

When I feel like this about gender I find it helps to focus less on "what I AM" and more on "what do I WANT" - what do I want to wear, what activities do I want to do, how do I want to move, how do I wish to look, what do I want to express, who do I want to spend time with etc etc.  I find these kind of questions easier to answer and this helps me engage with gender in a more embodied way.   My experience of gender is not easily categorised and sometimes with too much thinking it is easy for me to get confused and lost in a sea of labels, theories and what if's.

I will second therapy as well

[Kara Jayde]

I think it's interesting how you describe seeing yourself as a woman as appropriation. I am battling ideas like this at the moment, like, if I DID come out and start dressing and acting femme, will people think I am 'acting' like a woman, as opposed to acting like myself. Having them think that way would hurt, but at the same time, I've spent my whole life repressing my femme behaviour, so to let it 'out' will require some exaggeration on my behalf, would could be considered acting... I don't know, it's strange.

One thing that's helping me is instead of looking at it as a binary (female/male), just imagine letting yourself act however you like, with no restrictions or social boundaries, and then simply reflect and analyze where that behaviour would sit on the 'gender' spectrum. I do this subconsciously sometimes, since coming out to myself and no longer repressing my actions, and unsurprisingly most of my behaviour sits on the feminine end, unless I specifically alter my behaviour due to masculine habit. So, even though I may not act 'ultra girly' which would probably be appropriation and an act of sorts, I do actually act and behave more on the feminine end when I'm not TRYING to act male. The reason people don't SEE female, is because I'm a big lumbering male...

Just food for thought...

[Asche]

I've been mulling over the responses I've gotten, which has taken a while (especially since Life seems to be getting in the way a lot.)

One thing that's helping me is instead of looking at it as a binary (female/male), just imagine letting yourself act however you like, with no restrictions or social boundaries, and then simply reflect and analyze where that behaviour would sit on the 'gender' spectrum.

I'm doing more and more of that (acting however I like), anyway.  I don't really think of any of it as having a gender, though I recognize that some of it -- mainly my wearing skirts and dresses (and ones as "girly" as I've managed to accustom myself to) -- would be seen as "feminine" by most people.

However, it's a lot harder to do this in social interactions.  People's expectations are heavily dependent on gender, and my behavior depends on how people respond or how I think they'll respond.

With men, I'm basically wary.  If anything, I think I deal with men the way many (most?) women do -- friendly, but cautious and a little placating -- except without the romantic tension.  I think it's for the same reason: in the back of my mind, I'm always prepared for the possibility that a man will assault me, either verbally or physically.  (Fortunately, I don't have the added fear of being raped.) 

With women, I'm very conscious that they are wary with me, and this is on my mind whenever I'm interacting with a women.  I wonder: is she acting friendly because she likes me or wants to talk to me, or is she afraid if she doesn't, I'll turn nasty?  Sometimes, if I encounter a woman on the sidewalk, I'll see her suddenly put on a super-friendly smile when she sees me, one that doesn't seem appropriate, given that we're total strangers, and I really get the sense that it's a behavior based on the perception that any man could be a threat (cf.: "Schrödinger's Rapist")

The reason people don't SEE female, is because I'm a big lumbering male...

It's also why women don't respond to me the way they'd respond to a woman, even when I'm wearing a dress.

I think what I'd like to be able to do is to relate to women the way I see women relating to one another, without the delicate dance I have to do because of my male privilege.  I like that women are more careful of people's feelings and consider other people's perspectives more, and I've been trying to do that myself, partly just so I don't piss people off all the time.  I guess you could call it "feminine," but I think of it just as "relating like a normal person," as opposed to how most men seem to relate to anyone most of the time.

The bottom line seems to be that I don't feel male at all, other than in my body, but I can't say I feel female -- maybe because I don't really know what "female" would feel like.  As far as I can tell, the women I know don't run around feeling "female" or trying to, they feel like themselves.  And who they are seems to be a mix of what society might label "womanly" and some of what it might call "manly" and some that has (so far) escaped gender labelling.

Maybe what I feel like when I'm just being myself is what other people would call "feeling that I'm really a woman."

[Kara Jayde]

I'm doing more and more of that (acting however I like), anyway.  I don't really think of any of it as having a gender, though I recognize that some of it -- mainly my wearing skirts and dresses (and ones as "girly" as I've managed to accustom myself to) -- would be seen as "feminine" by most people.

I meant more behaviour or mannerisms than clothing, but even that isn't exactly a great indicator usually, since women are much more free to borrow from a library of traditionally male and female mannerisms, whilst men 'generally' stick to pretty rigid mannerisms. For example, on the train yesterday I let myself sit however I wanted to (usually I'd have my legs wide stretched, an arm over the chair, with my chest puffed out, etc) which led to me sitting very tight - one knee over the other - with hands in my lap. I instantly recognized it as a feminine posture, but didn't care because only women were around and I felt comfortable.

Then this skater dude came into the carriage and sat across the aisle, sat how I'd usually have sat simply because I was born male, and started staring at me, as if - look at how he's sitting!'. I instantly felt uncomfortable simply by his presence and the pressure led me to slowly shuffle my posture into a more recognizably male one over the next five minutes or so.

However, it's a lot harder to do this in social interactions.  People's expectations are heavily dependent on gender, and my behavior depends on how people respond or how I think they'll respond.

I'm only 'myself' around people who know about me or in public, where I don't have to pretend. When I'm around people that don't know about my GD, I simply leave the male mask on. As I mentioned before, it's hardest to behave as myself around other men - women I'm fine around.

With men, I'm basically wary.  If anything, I think I deal with men the way many (most?) women do -- friendly, but cautious and a little placating -- except without the romantic tension.  I think it's for the same reason: in the back of my mind, I'm always prepared for the possibility that a man will assault me, either verbally or physically.  (Fortunately, I don't have the added fear of being raped.) 

This might be the reason I behave the way I do around men, though I haven't thought about it.

With women, I'm very conscious that they are wary with me, and this is on my mind whenever I'm interacting with a women.  I wonder: is she acting friendly because she likes me or wants to talk to me, or is she afraid if she doesn't, I'll turn nasty?  Sometimes, if I encounter a woman on the sidewalk, I'll see her suddenly put on a super-friendly smile when she sees me, one that doesn't seem appropriate, given that we're total strangers, and I really get the sense that it's a behavior based on the perception that any man could be a threat (cf.: "Schrödinger's Rapist")

Haha that's the first time I've heard Schrödinger's Rapist, but it describes the feeling so well. Being trapped in an overtly masculine shell, with large bulky arms and a beard, I've had women cross the street to avoid me at night quite often, which always hurt, but I do understand. It's better to be cautious, they have no idea that we're women inside. The close female friends I have very quickly realized that my personality doesn't really match my appearance, and as a result I have more girlfriends than guy friends. They don't know about my GID though, they just think I'm one of those sensitive, nice guys.

It's also why women don't respond to me the way they'd respond to a woman, even when I'm wearing a dress.

I think what I'd like to be able to do is to relate to women the way I see women relating to one another, without the delicate dance I have to do because of my male privilege.  I like that women are more careful of people's feelings and consider other people's perspectives more, and I've been trying to do that myself, partly just so I don't piss people off all the time.  I guess you could call it "feminine," but I think of it just as "relating like a normal person," as opposed to how most men seem to relate to anyone most of the time.

Maybe you just need to meet more women, and make it clear you're not sexually interested right off the bat (I'm not sure what your sexual orientation is, but if you're not interested in women sexually, and you're presenting as male, say you're gay - whilst if you're presenting as a woman, mention that you just want to chat). I have no experience with trying to get to know women while presenting as one, but I can usually put women at ease fairly quickly by using my voice in its upper range (feminine male, not feminine feminine) and speaking the way women speak (which I tend to do anyway, which is lucky, as I've noticed a lot of vocal coaches for trans* seem to have to teach the person how to speak correctly, as in grammar and vocabulary, etc).

The bottom line seems to be that I don't feel male at all, other than in my body, but I can't say I feel female -- maybe because I don't really know what "female" would feel like.  As far as I can tell, the women I know don't run around feeling "female" or trying to, they feel like themselves.  And who they are seems to be a mix of what society might label "womanly" and some of what it might call "manly" and some that has (so far) escaped gender labelling.

Maybe what I feel like when I'm just being myself is what other people would call "feeling that I'm really a woman."

Well, that's the thing. What is it to 'feel' female. What I can tell you, is I don't feel or relate to males at all. I do relate to the way women behave and act, and I do prefer the company of women generally. I'm also more interested in traditionally feminine things, though not always. Does that makes me feel like a woman? Well, no. But like you said, I doubt women wake up and say to themselves 'WOW I FEEL LIKE SUCH A WOMAN TODAY'. It's just a natural feeling, to feel like yourself, the labeling part is done by society. If I walk, talk, and act like a woman, than label me as a woman. It makes more sense than if you labeled me as a man just because I was born with male junk.

Wow, sorry this is so long, hehe. I think I lived up to the title of this thread

[Asche]

More incoherent rambling.....


In line with this:

I'm always prepared for the possibility that a man will assault me, either verbally or physically.

A few days ago, I was riding on a sardine-can crowded subway car, and the guy next to me was doing a non-stop monologue about all the people he'd like to kill and how he'd like to do it.  I definitely did not want to draw any attention to myself.  I don't know how long he kept it up -- he was still doing it when I got off at Grand Central.

Haha that's the first time I've heard Schrödinger's Rapist,

See the original Schrödinger's Rapist article.  As you might expect, it has triggered a bunch of clueless "but it's so unfair because I'm not a rapist!" responses.  There's also the quote, attributed to Margaret Atwood: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."  A not unreasonable fear, to judge by the stories I read in the local newspaper.  (Of course, men kill a lot of men, too.  We all -- men and women -- have reason to regard men as potential murderers.)

For example, on the train yesterday I let myself sit however I wanted to ... sitting very tight - one knee over the other - with hands in my lap. I instantly recognized it as a feminine posture,...

Then this skater dude came into the carriage and sat across the aisle, sat how I'd usually have sat simply because I was born male, and started staring at me, as if - 'look at how he's sitting!'  I instantly felt uncomfortable simply by his presence and the pressure led me to slowly shuffle my posture into a more recognizably male one....

I don't do the one leg over another thing because my body won't bend that way, at least, not without a lot of force.  But I do pull myself in and minimize how much space I take up, at least around other people.  I can't stand the "guy taking up as much room as possible" thing you see in the subway a lot -- it feels antisocial.  I can't say I change things when a man comes in.  I haven't noticed the "look how he's sitting" thing, but even if I did, I'd probably treat it as a threat and get even more hedgehog-y, not try to look more macho.  I've never been able to do macho, anyway, even if my life depended on it, just as I don't try to out-scorpion scorpions.

+ + +

I've been thinking about other behaviors I've noticed in myself.  I do a lot of contra dancing, and sometimes I will end up dancing the woman's role, either because there aren't enough women or because it's a situation where role-switching seems more socially acceptable.  If my partner gets into it and does all the things to me that men usually do with their (female) partners, like twirls or fancy swings, I really enjoy it and wish I could do it more often.  There are also (rarely ) dances with a role-reversed figure (e.g., men's chain instead of ladies' chain), and I really like that, too.  Unfortunately, most men get really uptight about dancing with a man instead of a woman, and many get weird about even having any physical contact with another man.  And most women prefer to have someone else (usually a man) do the leading.  It is no fun at all to dance with someone who'd rather not be dancing with you or would rather you were dancing a different role.

Warning: possible TMI ahead

And in my fantasies, I also always seem to be in what you might call a "feminine" role.  I like sex, hugging, and other romantic activites, but I really don't like having to initiate it.  I can force myself to initiate sometimes because I won't get any if I don't initiate.  In my fantasies, though, it's always the woman who is telling me what to do or doing things to me (though of course they're always things I like doing, anyway, and done with respect for my feelings.)  A number of my fantasies have me being a "househusband" -- or rather, the maid (and dressed like one) -- and in my fantasies I enjoy taking care of the woman (or women ) in my life and having her/them dress me up and do all kinds of things to me.  I don't know if it would work out in practice: my ex-wife often indicated she'd like me to stay home and manage the house and kids, but unfortunately, she sees other people mostly as instruments for fulfilling her needs and sees their feelings and needs just as obstacles, so I never could trust her enough to make myself that dependent on her.

I've even started to fantasize being intimate with a man, always a caring and gentle man who is not in any way macho or stereotypically masculine, but who still takes charge.  Oddly, in the few fantasies I have where I'm a woman, I'm usually the dominant one and the man submits to what I do to him.