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Is transition necessary, why/why not?

Started by jussmoi4nao, May 04, 2014, 05:13:36 AM

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jussmoi4nao

Actually, honestly, you know what, the thing is my original intent was to say that transition just shouldn't ge such a big bleeping deal. It shouldn't be necessary for most. I'm sorry, but it shouldn't. We shouldn't live in a society that tells us who we are is what's between our legs. Genders shouldnt be so distinguished from one another. And it shouldn't be something that's a major deal for those doo who want to do it.

Trans people feed into this through their transitions. Everything about 99% of transitions validates this f-ed up, traditional way of thinking. Look at the entire trans narrative...a woman/man trapped in a man/womans body. It's depressing! We have this whole tragic view of it and it IS tragic because we let it be! We feed into the very binary that's stifling us instead of saying, heyy, screw that! And then you yell at the ones who doo speak up. Trans people are so freaking binary.

If you wanna transition you should absolutely be able to, and nobody should give a crap. But it shouldn't make or break us. Gender should never be that important.

And btw, what about the non ops? Are they not women because they don't hate...or even like...their penises? What about the peeps whho can't physically transition because of health? Is their identity invalid because they don't change their bodies? Or is who they are about how they feel?

That's my view, and that's ONE view I will never apologize for.
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BunnyBee

Sometimes people are binary.  Sometimes the trans narrative does fit.  If you aren't binary, then the traditional, binary-based, approach may not be right for you.  That doesn't mean it isn't for everybody.
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jussmoi4nao

@Jen,

Being trans and being binary is like being a gay Republican. The very definition of the word trans is Latin and it means 'outside' of something.

And as a general rule these kinds of narratives are harmful. Now it's nice for you, and hell even nice for me, because we're pretty girls who don't grab a second look. But that's not everyone. Why don't you go tell the unpassable transwomen who get beaten or even killed about how fantastic binary thinking is.

In other words...I'm checkin my privilege girl. Why don't you?
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Ltl89

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings as many of us experience things differently to begin with.  I came into this thread trying to answer the questions as best as I could (hypotheticals aren't easy for me), but I realize that some will feel differently than me as we are all unique people that don't necessarily share the same feelings or life circumstances. Anyway, I think this was an interesting topic with many valid viewpoints and different experiences to back them up, but I will apologize if I upset anyone in the process of participating.     

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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: learningtolive on May 04, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings as many of us experience things differently to begin with.  I came into this thread trying to answer the questions as best as I could (hypotheticals aren't easy for me), but I realize that some will feel differently than me as we are all unique people that don't necessarily share the same feelings or life circumstances. Anyway, I think this was an interesting topic with many valid viewpoints and different experiences to back them up, but I will apologize if I upset anyone in the process of participating.   

Don't be such a goose :p! You needa little more confidence girl ;)
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BunnyBee

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
@Jen,

Being trans and being binary is like being a gay Republican. The very definition of the word trans is Latin and it means 'outside' of something.

And as a general rule these kinds of narratives are harmful. Now it's nice for you, and hell even nice for me, because we're pretty girls who don't grab a second look. But that's not everyone. Why don't you go tell the unpassable transwomen who get beaten or even killed about how fantastic binary thinking is.

In other words...I'm checkin my privilege girl. Why don't you?

Trans means across or the other side.  That is why we use that prefix, but who cares about that, really?

I fit into the binary, am I wrong for being that way?  I don't really get it?

I'm not telling people they have to be binary when they aren't, why would you tell me I can't be when I am?

I do agree with you that the idea that the binary is the only way is harmful to people, and I don't support that kind of thinking.  You be you, I'll be me?
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 04:10:35 PM
Trans means across or the other side.  That is why we use that prefix, but who cares about that, really?

I fit into the binary, am I wrong for being that way?  I don't really get it?

I'm not telling people they have to be binary when they aren't, why would you tell me I can't be when I am?

I do agree with you that the idea that the binary is the only way is harmful to people, and I don't support that kind of thinking.  You be you, I'll be me?

The binary shouldn't exist to fit into to begin with, that's what you don't understand. It's harmful for everyone. I see it as an elaborate form of bigotry that's ingrained in our society, and harms anyone who falls outside it or on the low end of the totem pole (which trans people innately do, despite your quivel over semantics).

If you fit into it...which, as a transperson, you only give the image of fitting into it, you don't, truly (and that's what slays me about binary thinking trans people)...but if you do thats by coincidence. Or at least it should be. It shouldn't be a standard.

This is the problem...when you dissect this you see that it's a systemic way of thinking. We like to complain about the bigotry in society but we've internalized so much of it many of us are no better. And we indirectly validate it through our transitions all for the sake of finding peace in a f-ed up sense of normality that shouldn't even be there in 2014.
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Adam (birkin)

I haven't had time today to read the entire thread, but I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that transition isn't (usually) necessary.

My transition had, and has, nothing to do with gender roles. I never felt the desire to be male because I wanted to be "treated like a man." I did spend a number of years trying to be a stereotypical female because I didn't want to "encourage" my transgender feelings, but when I realized that I was probably only making myself feel worse, I actually went out of my way to do everything I wanted to do as a female. That, for me, was the litmus test - could I be entirely myself without changing sex? Obviously that would be preferable, less chance of discrimination, less financial burden, etc. I spent about 5 years doing everything I wanted as a female. I wanted to do something "masculine"? I did it and never once was sorry, even when I got dirty looks. I wanted to do something feminine? I did it, and felt no better when I got approval from others. And for the most part, people treated me with more respect because they saw me as someone who was in charge of themselves and wasn't about to take any crap.

But I still felt equally dysphoric, even though I was fulfilling the role I wanted to. Even though my life, even by my own estimation, was perfect. Because I know, on some visceral level, that I am not meant to have a female body. That's it. There's nothing secret or special to it, I just have never been comfortable with a female body. Beyond that, I've always known my body should be male. Hormones have done nothing but confirm that. The more male characteristics I develop, the less foreign and alien my body seems to me. I've also been consistently more balanced on hormones than I was before, when I really didn't even expect them to affect my disposition.

I wouldn't have been happy as a female, no matter how much I perfected my "role" in society. To me, it's almost akin to saying to a lesbian "yeah, you might prefer being with women, but couldn't you just get used to being with a guy? Why do all this gay stuff? Is being with a woman really necessary? I mean what really is the difference between being with a guy and a girl?" Yeah, for the lesbian, it is necessary, and it is different, because it's the difference between spending a life half-assing a relationship, never feeling true and complete love, and feeling slightly ill to your stomach when you look at the person you're supposed to spend your life with. For me, transition is necessary, and being a man IS different than being a woman. Because it is the difference between spending my days avoiding the unfamiliar face in the mirror, having parts that feel alien hanging off my body, and trying to balance my life and live a full life while dealing with the pain and discomfort I feel inside.

I've noticed a lot of this sort of stuff coming out - that dysphoric trans people are reinforcing the binary. I seem to remember that a lot of conservative, transphobic people have said that to me. "Why would you become a man, can't you just be a lesbian?" or "Can't you just be a masculine woman?" "Can't you just delay the transition, why does it matter, it's not necessary, it's cosmetic." "Why can't you just learn to accept having breasts and a vagina?" How are these kind of discussions any different? That it's somehow wrong to feel that your body is incorrect and to seek ways to feel better within it as the opposite sex.
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Jessica Merriman

I guess I have to be the one who says it. A good Therapist can help you answer most of the post's in this topic. My Therapist and I have gone over nearly all the points in this topic over the last 9 months and that is why I don't have these thoughts and battles in my mind. I am now free of all the questions and what if's and can concentrate on being the new me, er, old me, however you look at it. The point is all these questions and attempts at justification for transition have been answered. I am now free to live the rest of my life without regret or pain. :)
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jussmoi4nao

See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.

It's because we're told that this is how one gender is supposed to act...and in trying to escape one crappy stereotype we run toward another, or at least many of us do. Instead of saying "->-bleeped-<- you" to both sides.

And my god, woman, you and your therapist obsession, lol! I'm not crazy. I don't need a therapist to tell me how to think, and mines a dolt (but she's all I got). And you know what, a lot of therapists who are feminists and have studied gender issues would agree with me. This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".
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Jessica Merriman

Abby I never said that at all. I was just saying how my questions were answered, nothing else. :(
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 04, 2014, 04:31:49 PM
Abby I never said that at all. I was just saying how my questions were answered, nothing else. :(

Ohh, please don't take offense, I'm just feeling sassy. I love you, girl, you know that ;)
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Adam (birkin)

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.

At the end of the day though, you don't have to do or be any of those things if you don't wish to. Yes, society does pressure women to act stupid and shallow, and does cast an eye of suspicion on women who are unabashed by their intelligence. But society can't make that choice for you. I reached a point where in terms of gender roles, I truly didn't fit in as a female or a male. As a female, I was a little too headstrong, a little too low-maintenance, a little too lesbian. As a guy, I'm a little too timid (yes, despite being seen as a badass female), a little too much into the music of Katy Perry, and a little too gay-appearing (yes, despite being read as a lesbian constantly as a girl). But it's me. I'm a man, and society sees me as such. Could I change to be a manly man? I'd probably get more social acceptance. But to me, it really isn't worth it. I'd rather deal with ignorant people who think I'm too effeminate as a male, and find out whop my real friends are. Because my real friends love me, no matter how much I perform the role that is expected of a man.
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sad panda

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.

It's because we're told that this is how one gender is supposed to act...and in trying to escape one crappy stereotype we run toward another, or at least many of us do. Instead of saying "->-bleeped-<- you" to both sides.

And my god, woman, you and your therapist obsession, lol! I'm not crazy. I don't need a therapist, and mines a dolt, but she's all I got. And you know what, all of therapists who are feminists and have studied gender issues would agree with me. This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".

Yeah it's pretty great to just start being you for you and not care about these ridiculous gender roles. They are ridiculous and harmful too. Even if they're trends, they sure as heck shouldn't be roles. They sure as heck shouldn't be getting imposed on anyone. People do it subconsciously even too, on others and on themselves. One a,azing thing to me has been how much policing i have gotten on this very site since deciding to be a boy. Even trans people have a very narrow field of acceptance... So i don't know, I am a boy with a basically female body, who has long hair and girl's clothes and accessories and is feminine and crazy and and emotional and can also be really thoughtful and intelligent and on occasion, badass too. :) None of those things are wrong and i won't apologize for them either. If people stereotype me, then screw that... not worth spending time thinking about.
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Jenna Marie

Transition would have been necessary for me even in the absence of social dysphoria, because for me it was at least somewhat about what my body looked and acted like in the absence of other people. I'm comfortable with that, and with the fact that my narrative will be misused to support the binary (I'm not HAPPY about that fact, but I'm not going to lie so as to not give ammunition to those people who claim trans people reinforce the binary - it's  catch-22 anyway, since if I do lie, those same people use it as proof that trans people are liars).

Similarly, I agree that getting obsessed with every detail of your body and comparing it to a cis person's is a good way to drive yourself nuts. However... my body IS about 99% what I wanted in terms of gendered traits. If I'd been born with a uterus and ovaries, I'd be lobbying to have them removed, and I can't see my chromosomes so aside from occasional mopey moments that doesn't bug me either. (The 1% is that I do have a bit of brow bossing, though to be honest my mother does too, if less.) I get frustrated sometimes when the generalizations come out about how no trans person can ever be content or be "close enough" or whatever, because not everyone is cut from the same mold.
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".
I will be the one to go away. Sorry to interfere in your topic. Take care. :(
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 04, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
I will be the one to go away. Sorry to interfere in your topic. Take care. :(

Don't be like thaat, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings :( I think you're great and I always value your input and perspective. I just feel like sometimes I get buried under therapy suggestions because I'm maybe not 100%...mentally okay. But this isn't one of those times, is all I meant. You know?

But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?
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Adam (birkin)

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?

Sorry, I didn't see that part earlier. I don't think someone should kill themselves because they are dysphoric. You don't have to transition to be a man or a woman, but I think it's awfully hard to feel entirely content with yourself if you are trans and can't transition, regardless of the reason. I've wondered a few times what I'd do if for whatever reason I had to stay female...I would have stayed alive, because I'm stubborn and weird and drag things out to the very end lol. And I'd have done my best to be happy in as many areas of my life as possible. But that doesn't mean the dysphoria would have ever gone away. I'm happy for people who don't have dysphoria, regardless of how they got there - if they can be happy with no transition, or a "partial" transition (as in, not doing certain surgeries or procedures), more power to them. But that doesn't mean people who need to go "all the way" and have all the surgeries are doing anything wrong either. Some people have severe gender dysphoria which can only be relieved by medical transition, and for those who can get it, there's nothing wrong in seeking that. For those who can't for whatever reason, I would hope they could be happy with themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did cause some sense of wrongness or unhappiness within themselves.
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Ltl89

I guess the point is that it differs for each one of us and that we all have to be careful and empathetic when considering this. I really don't like absolutes and believe it's up to everyone to find their own path, but often the trans community has definitive answers for individuals that might not fit their solutions.  It's just I can't see myself personally being happy without transitioning at some point and can't imagine the hypothetical scenario of a world free of gender roles.  Would I feel this way?  Would the body dysphoria exist or is it part of the social conditioning?  How can any of us objectively answer that without experiencing this world?  Personally, it's way too hard for me to assume, but it's certainly "possible" that I would feel differently under alternative conditions.  However, I can only really know for sure about how feel at this time.  At this moment, I do see a path that doesn't involve transition that allows me to feel free or happy in some sense.  That doesn't mean that what's right for me is right for another person and vice versa.  That's why I say "do as thou wilt".  We all have to follow our hearts and do what's best for ourselves. 

As for those who can't medically transition, no they shouldn't kill themselves.  I know some great people that have much to contribute to this world that can't transition.  I won't put myself in their shoes and say whats best for them, but like everyone else, they need to find their own meaning and path under those circumstances.  They set their own course, just like you do, just like I do and every one else does.  I just don't think there is any acceptable solution we can apply to anyone else, these things have to come from within the individual themselves which is why I caution everyone to think about their path before setting forward. 
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Nero

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM

But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?

Unfortunately, there are some on this board in this very predicament. The way I see it, trans people have always been around. And most couldn't do anything about it through the centuries. Especially female borns. Male borns could more easily cut off the T (ouch  :P). The female body was a lot harder to do much about. While I know some women lived as men before modern medicine, that wouldn't have been an option due to my face and tits.
I think gender role changes may have helped alleviate some of the pain in earlier times and cultures. And some cultures made allowances for this. Those of us who can make medical changes are really very lucky.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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