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Is transition necessary, why/why not?

Started by jussmoi4nao, May 04, 2014, 05:13:36 AM

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Colleen♡Callie

I don't know where you got the notion any of us were saying that anyone unable to transition or decides not to is invalid.  I don't see one person saying that at all on here.

You're defending those who don't want to or can't transition by condemning those who are transitioning and feel apart of the binary.  Why invalidate anyone at all?  Why are you invalidating those feel they fit the binary?  This just feels like more policing imho.

No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can.  It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves.  They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them.  Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone.  Not remotely.  Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently.  Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work. 
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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jussmoi4nao

I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.

Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?

It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.
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Jenna Marie

"No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can.  It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves.  They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them.  Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone.  Not remotely.  Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently.  Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work."

Yes, precisely this. Brilliantly put.

I'm not in the business of telling other people how to live their lives; I have my hands full figuring out my own. :)
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 04, 2014, 05:01:12 PM
I don't know where you got the notion any of us were saying that anyone unable to transition or decides not to is invalid.  I don't see one person saying that at all on here.

You're defending those who don't want to or can't transition by condemning those who are transitioning and feel apart of the binary.  Why invalidate anyone at all?  Why are you invalidating those feel they fit the binary?  This just feels like more policing imho.

No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can.  It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves.  They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them.  Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone.  Not remotely.  Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently.  Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work.

Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!

The idea was to establish whether transition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition is often performed in a way that validates said binary. Ergo, transgender people hurt themselves by helping themselves.

Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.
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Ltl89

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:01:32 PM
I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.

Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?

It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.

I think it's a question that can only be answered by those found in those situations.  I don't want to speak for them because I can't imagine being in their shoes.  the existentialist in me says that individuals create meaning for themselves.  Like I said, I only know how to speak for myself and my own feelings.

Before we go too far with the topic of those who can't transition, I would just caution everyone to remember that this is getting into a topic that may be very sensitive to people in that situation.  Please let us remember there are many of them that exist in this world and be respectful of their feelings in this debate as well.  Sorry, I just have to say this in advance.
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Ltl89

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:07:58 PM
Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!

The idea was to establish whether trasition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition I often performed in a way that validates said binary. Those desiring transition are some of the most affected by it.

Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.

Oh, that I can agree with for the most part.  Transition isn't something that "must be done".  I think that's a flawed premise and something I would never advise on this site.  Sadly, I do see the transition fix all solution getting proposed a lot.  It's not going to solve everything and it hasn't for me.  It's a different question to say "do you feel it was neccessary for you" and to say "it is neccessary for everyone.  Most of us answered the first and would agree with you point on the later. 
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jussmoi4nao

Also? I've established a gajillion times why binary thinking is harmful. They say all dichotomies are false dichotomies, and it's true. Saying it's coolio to fit into the binary implies that manner of thinking should exist to begin with. If it's harmful, why should it?

It's like saying people should accept racism because not everyone has to be a racist if they don't feel that way. Racism is still bad, even if you are one.
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Colleen♡Callie

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:07:58 PM
Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!

The idea was to establish whether transition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition is often performed in a way that validates said binary. Ergo, transgender people hurt themselves by helping themselves.

Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.

Then what is it you are suggesting?  If the act of transitioning hurts us while helps us, then what is it you suggest we do? 

You support everyone's right to transition, which I fully believe and am not saying you don't, but if transitioning for most only furthers the binary, then what should be done differently?  If a transwoman truly enjoys wearing dresses and make-up for her own reasons, and not because they are associated with a feminine stereotype should she not wear them?  Or should she be true to herself regardless?

To answer your question about if it is necessary, depends.  For some, it is very necessary, for others it's not.  Like those who decide and choose not to transition.  Transitioning is not necessary for them.  For others it is fully necessary.
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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Ltl89

I've done my best to explain my position and that's all I can do.  This is my life and I'm choosing my own path.  Everyone else chooses their own and it's not important to me how they lead their life nor should it be important to others about how I lead mine.  It's as simple as that, so I don't see why there needs to be judgement of binaries when most are stating people should be free to be themselves, whatever that is.  Shouldn't that opinion go both ways?  Either way, that's what I see on this site, support of people of all stripes within the trans community and that's what we should be here.  In any case, it's been an interesting discussion but I don't feel I can add anything else to this discussion and will leave with that.   
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jussmoi4nao

#89
I'm not really sure. Maybe not pressure everyone so much into transition, for starters, but instead see if they can find ways to express their gender identity and make an example of the complexity of identity, itself. Because it's not right for everybody. Medically changing your body is a big deal, you know, it's no small thing. Give a little more attention to non-transitioners and non-binaries instead of sweeping them under the rug because they don't go with the image. And, hey, give a little more spotlight to the Lana Wachowski's of the world instead of just the Carmen Carrera's.

Or hell, even the Sad Panda's. Good example. Pretty dude with boobs who wears makeup, girls clothes, and has long hair. But still a dude, because that's who he is. Show that there's a difference between all of these things we've discussed...identity, roles, presentation, body image, varying degrees of dysphoria/comfort levels and find some way to bring them all together. Starting with smashing roles all together.

I feel like if I lived in a different society...I'm not sure what I'd want to do. And I bet a lot of people wouldn't be. On one hand I like the idea of being content with the body I was given. Having parts that work the way they should. Cohesion. It's natural and simple. And if gender roles weren't so rigid, then I may not mind the mismatch so much. Because I could express myself however I liked without editing my body in drastic ways. Which is ultimately preferable for many, I imagine. However, at the same time, if gender roles weren't so enforced transitioning itself would be easier for those who still wanted to go that route, because there would be less judgment in it.

All I know is...transitioning into a massive stereotype, does absolutely nothing to cure that stereotype...in other words, I'm part of the problem and thusly a hypocrite. But I'm a hypocrite who knowss I'm a hypocrite.

And I know it sounds idealistic. And it probably won't happen in your lifetime or even mine. But I kind of like to think that's how change happens. Doing what you can to make an impact on the future, even if you'll never see the results.

but then again im just a dumb 19 year old girl and i shouldnt talk about this stuff cuz i have noo idea what im saying lolz
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Nero

Not dumb at all sweetie. It's a good question. I think there are peeps who for whom transition wouldn't be necessary in an accepting world and those for whom it still would. I'm one of the latter (unless I internalized gender roles at a young age to the point I had physical dysphoria).
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 05:54:17 PM
(unless I internalized gender roles at a young age to the point I had physical dysphoria).

That's the question, isn't it xD
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eli77

What Abby is raising here is the idea that one of the fundamental binaries of our society, man/woman, is also fundamentally harming our society.

Often when we talk about gender, we talk about a spectrum. Basically that means a line going from "man" on one side to "woman" on the other. Everyone in-between is termed "non-binary." People who don't fit into either of the two standard, normative models. Attached to those concepts of "man" and "woman" are a whole slew of ideas of what they are, ranging from body parts, to ideas and actions, to roles in society, to biological function. It's one of the really, really fundamental divides we acknowledge.

However, over time with the assistance of science, we have slowly discovered that fewer and fewer of the things traditionally associated with one gender or the other has any basis in "nature," but instead is an artificial construct of our society. It has then been argued, and in many cases proven, that these issues have caused harm to individuals within our society. For example, something as simple as the fact that men whose wives earn more than them are more likely to commit suicide. That is evidence of the gender binary doing damage to people. That trying to squish people into these binary models causes a great deal of misery, death, loss and pain. Including for many trans people.

Some people, like Abby, have suggested that doing away with the binary entirely is necessary to move forward. And that any effort to support it's continued existence is problematic. I.e. that simply offering the space in between man and woman for people who don't fit is insufficient. That instead we should see gender as something far more amorphous and non-linear. Some have suggested seeing it as a galaxy of points, with each person making a unique decision regarding how they prefer to present and be regarded. Others have suggested that the path should be towards minimizing the value of gender entirely--stripping away more and more things that we place into the gender binary. I.e. making clothing non-gendered or encouraging the use of genderless pronouns.

The problem for trans people is that we are frequently forced into an awkward situation where we are pushing out certain pieces of the binary. I.e. we are almost exclusively responsible for the concept that your chromosomes and sex characteristics don't necessarily determine your gender. While at the same time we frequently aggressively uphold other types of binary thinking: in an effort to validate ourselves, to reclaim lost opportunities, to fit in better with our target gender, to be perceived as cis, and other reasons. It is also one of the things that most frequently places us at odds with the concerns of cis LGB folks, many of whom are fighting against the same binary gender issues that we support, while supporting the same binary gender issues that we are fighting.

It is easy to say "I'm just feminine and binary, that's how I am" (or "I'm just masculine and binary, that's how I am"). But that COMES from somewhere. Nobody just likes a thing for no reason. There is ALWAYS a reason. Even if you don't know what it is. And even if you don't know what it is, I bet I can tell you where it comes from. Because it all comes from the same place, from our society, from the binary itself. It is essentially impossible to escape. Even those of us who actively work against the binary, we still exist in relationship to it. It's just that massive and that big a thing in our world. Sexism is an endlessly ongoing battle, the binary is the basis on which sexism exists in the first place. It means fighting how we perceive other people on the most basic level. Being constantly aware of what gendered behaviours you have or opinions you hold, and considering what they mean and how you express yourself.

And even then you WILL get sucked in, even more so because of the added pressure of being trans. And that process of being sucked in, leads quite a few trans people to make decisions against their own self-interest. To choose interventions of their lives and bodies that bring them to harm. Because we, like the binary categories of man/woman, present transition as this boxed package of "all the things you need to do to be better." And anyone who can't achieve it... they hurt for that, on top of any hurts they may already have. The issue isn't so much "what about people who can't transition?" in the sense of "shouldn't we accept them"? It's "what about people who can't transition" in the sense of what our little community of transitioners makes them feel--failures as men or women. Much like many non-binaries force themselves into binary categories to avoid that feeling of failure. Because it is expected, it is normal, it is the "right" way to do things > HRT, wear girl/boy clothes and makeup/no-makeup, change your IDs, live as a man/woman, get surgery, forget you are trans.

And if you fit that pattern? Why do you fit it, nah? Because it is right for you? Or because it is right enough? Or because it is the path of least resistance? Or maybe it is perfect for you, and you love it. Great. But try to remember how many people get mangled in the system that is right for you. The argument here isn't that you SHOULD NOT do those things. I mean, I am pretty close to the living embodiment of that path, and I'm pretty happy with it. And I will fight tooth and nail to let any person do whatever they desire with their life and their body. But you should choose it as an individual, as a personal path. Not as part of a system that hurts other members of our society.

Jen, it doesn't need to be that I am non-binary and you are binary. It might simply be that you chose one path that entailed a certain set of things. And I took a different path that entailed a another set of things. That there is no true dichotomy there. Just people, blundering around trying to find what bits and pieces fit for them.

And that is what, in the end, Abby is pointing at. That the brutal truth is: none of us fit. That is what makes us trans. None of us fit any more or less than any other. We are all the flotsam and jetsam of a broken system, binary or non-binary, post-op or non-op, transitioner or non-transitioner. None of us fit the traditional model for "man" or "woman." Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Finally, I hope nobody will be offended by my words. It is not my intention, and I apologize sincerely if you are hurt by them. I only wish to maybe suggest you think about it. To keep your eyes and your mind open in this world. To try to protect yourself, even if for no other reason. All my love,

Sarah
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Inanna

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?

Like trans people before the 20th century... they cope.  Like we all did before we transitioned.  Human beings can cope with almost any possible situation.  It's how we evolved.  This doesn't mean we aren't suffering; it just means we're focusing on something else.

You know what, who knows?  Maybe there's a way for most trans people to not only cope, but thrive with the bodies they have.  Who am I to discount possibility?  Yet with half a decade of introspection, I haven't found anything that lasts.
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Colleen♡Callie

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:42:30 PM
I'm not really sure. Maybe not pressure everyone so much into transition, for starters, but instead see if they can find ways to express their gender identity and make an example of the complexity of identity, itself. Because it's not right for everybody, you know.nMedically changing your body is a big deal, you know, it's no small thing. Give a little more attention to non-transitioners and non-binaries instead of sweeping them under the rug because they don't go with the image. And, hey, give a little more spotlight to the Lana Wachowski's of the world instead of just the Carmen Carrera's.

Or hell, even the Sad Panda's. Good example. Pretty dude with boobs who wears makeup, girls clothes, and has long hair. But still a dude, because that's who he is. Show that there's a difference between all of these things we've discussed...identity, roles, presentation, body image, varying degrees of dysphoria/comfort levels and find some way to bring them all together. Starting with smashing roles all together.

I feel like if I lived in a different society...I'm not sure what I'd want to do. And I bet a lot of people wouldn't be. On one hand I like the idea of being content with the body I was given. Having parts that work the way they should. Cohesion. It's natural and simple. And if gender roles weren't so rigid, then I may not mind the mismatch so much. Because I could express myself however I liked without editing my body in drastic ways. Which is ultimately preferable for many, I imagine. However, at the same time, if gender roles weren't so enforced transitioning itself would be easier for those who still wanted to go that route, because there would be less judgment in it.

All I know is...transitioning into a massive stereotype, does absolutely nothing to cure that stereotype...in other words, I'm part of the problem and thusly a hypocrite. But I'm a hypocrite who knowss I'm a hypocrite.

And I know it sounds idealistic. And it probably won't happen in your lifetime or even mine. But I kind of like to think that's how change happens. Doing what you can to make an impact on the future, even if you'll never see the results.

but then again im just a dumb 19 year old girl and i shouldnt talk about this stuff cuz i have noo idea what im saying lolz

Maybe we have run in other circles, but I haven't seen anyone pushing anyone else to transition on here.  I hear claims that it happens in the trans community, but haven't witnessed it myself yet so I can only go off what I have seen, which is people being supportive to those who don't fit and are figuring it out still or deciding what they should do.

Transitioning is a huge decision that I don't really think many people makes lightly. Definitely not something that should be made lightly, and it has to be made personally for every person.  We should to do what is right for us, whether that is transitioning, or not transitioning.  Sad Panda's example is great. For the reason you stated, that's who he is.  And those who are similar to him so explore that.  It may work for them.  What if it doesn't work for them though?  We can't push that on people anymore than we can push transitioning on them.   We can only encourage people to find what works for them.

And that has to include transitioning as much as not transitioning.  Just because transitioning is right for someone, doesn't invalidate them, or mean they were pushed into it, or are the enemy for inadvertently promoting a stereotype.  Transitioning to physically match the gender they identify with; to be a boy in a boy body, or a girl in a girl body doesn't make them any more or less than those that don't transition and remain a boy is a girl body, or a girl in a boy body.

By making transitioning out to be a huge issue that does more harm than good does invalidate those for who it is the right path.  Those who need it to be themselves truly.  Some don't need it, some do.  Both should be free to do what they need to in order to be themselves and not belittled because by doing so, by choosing to transition it also happens to support a gender binary in the views of society.

Yes I fully agree with you in a better society, a less restrictive society, many may not chose to transition, but many still well.  All depends on what is right for them, and nothing more.  A person isn't a hypocrite or wrongly promoting stereotypes because they transition.  Sad Panda is a great example, but doesn't work for everyone.  It's right for Sad Panda.  And transitioning is right for someone else.  Both are valid and neither is wrong for doing what they need to.

"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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jussmoi4nao

Sarah...I so much agree I can't even like...wow, just wow, dude! That was awesome. Very eloquent, it's like you gave the perfect shape to the concepts I was trying to convey on every point. Like that post actually made me emotional to read because it's literally one of the first things I have read in I don't know how long that I completely agreed with.

I'm pretty stunned at the general brilliance, there.
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Jill F

The way I see it, transition shouldn't be necessary, should it? I mean, yeah, it should be something we can do if we want to...but it shouldn't be something we have to feel is so necessary. And it shouldn't be so major.

When I was younger, it was not absolutely necessary for me to transition.  I could suck it up to where it just bothered me occasionally and I found ways to cope, including denial, shame and guilt.  I didn't want to be a freaking transsexual.  No effing way.  I feared what would happen if I ever tried going there, and I did not so much as wear women's clothing until age 43. (But I always wanted to from a young age.)

The dysphoria got so bad that it began to consume my thoughts and the girl in my head became impossible to ignore.  I literally heard a voice in my head that screamed "SEX CHANGE!!!" all day long.  I felt incredibly conflicted about it all, mostly due to fear of the unknown.   I began to drink heavily, and a few times I tried to get so drunk that I wouldn't wake up.  Well, I failed.  So much for plan "A".

Plan "B" was to get a therapist.  I really didn't want to have to transition and I hoped that my problem was something other than being transgender, so I tried the estrogen, which unfortunately turned out to be the magic bullet for me.   I was able to get off the antidepressants and antianxiety meds.  Originally I thought that I could just take a little E and still just be a guy socially and wear girly stuff in private when I wanted to, but it didn't work.  After some weeks of sober introspection, I felt that a full transition would really be best for me.   I hated everything about being a dude and realized that every step I took towards feminization felt exactly right.  The girlier I was, the happier I was, so I continued on the transition path.

I didn't choose transition as much as it chose me, I guess.
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BunnyBee

I am sure I didn't make myself clear.  I am saying I happen to fit into the binary model, for whatever reason.  I don't even understand fundamentally why.  Maybe I was born to be this way, maybe it's what I wanted and that bias drove me to be this way, and it worked out.  I don't even know.  I don't even know if it is relevant, in fact I think probably it isn't.  But I am this way.  I do fit the binary model.  I can't help it, or if I can idc it's who I am and I am happy with it.  I felt like people were saying it wasn't okay to be how I am.  I don't appreciate anybody telling me that.  I don't ask much from anybody, but I do ask, I am adamant actually, that you let me be who I am and not try to make me feel bad about it.

The issue of the binary model in society is a separate issue from fitting it, or, in other words, somebody telling me I should not be how I am.  I get that the whole system is a social construct and that it causes great, great harm for people that don't fit into it, psychological and physical, and it's awful.  If you read what I said, you will see that I never said I am in favor of this prevailing model, because I wouldn't say that, I just said I fit it, because I do.  Does the binary system benefit me personally because I happen to fit into it?  Maybe in some ways.  It also has lost me many loved ones because they felt that just by being trans I was challenging it, and therefore I was now human garbage.  It doesn't feel good.  Actually it really hurts.  I will never tell you the social construct of gender should be adhered to, or that the whole system isn't harmful.  That was never my point.

However, don't tell me I can't be who I am.  The whole point of transition is to find who we are and be authentic as we can to whatever that is.  If that isn't your goal in your transition, then you are doing it wrong.  I will not have people on a site that has been there to support me through my transition tell me I should be somebody I am not because it isn't like them or it happens, by luck or whatever, to be supported by a system they don't like, that I also acknowledge is harmful.  If you do that, you are no better than my loved ones that have turned their backs on me for trying to be myself.

If I am dense, and not understanding something, then fine.  I am sorry.  But I am just telling you how all of this is making me feel.  Which is... kind of sad, I guess?  :(
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Declan.

This subject again... I don't want to step on any toes, but if anything is going to kill our chances of being accepted into society, it'll be the trend of "we'd all be fine if not for gender roles."

For some people, if gender roles did not exist, they would probably be fine. Maybe even most. Who knows. If gender roles were gone, would it help us? Yes, absolutely. Would it solve our problems? No. Would we still transition? Some might not. But gender roles do not explain the severely stressful disconnect between brain and body. Not all people experience this disconnect. For some, it's not so bad. For others, it's brutal. Even if gender roles were switched - not just gone! - I would still be transgender, I would just be an unusual man. I don't "feel like a guy." I am a guy.
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Rainbow Brite

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:01:32 PM
I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.

Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?

It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.

If it's so easy to be trans and feel content with yourself, why are you here? Just because you couldn't handle it doesn't mean the others on here are on a path to failure. If you can't find contentment, that is your issue to deal with, your path to pursue.
I couldn't care about social roles, gender roles and how most of the world perceives me. I transitioned because my body map did not match what I knew to be right. I transitioned to be me, an authentic me and not some git who was angry at what nature had done to me.
You must live a sheltered life if you think that people fit into a binary. Nature doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't have sea slugs that could photosynthesize like plants, or male seahorses that gave birth.
If you want to fit your binary, thats on you. Don't make the mistake that Trans people are sheeple and with suddenly realise they are doing something wrong. The biggest reason for transition was stated quite eloquently by William Shakespeare:- This above all: to thine own self be true.
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