The Hormone Debate

[Ell]

Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.

well, i'm not going to sit here and say i wasn't talking about you. but please trust me, i didn't intend it in a mean-spirited way, ok? i was trying to be helpful and constructive, though it may not always seem that way.

[Nero]

Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.

well, i'm not going to sit here and say i wasn't talking about you. but please trust me, i didn't intend it in a mean-spirited way, ok? i was trying to be helpful and constructive, though it may not always seem that way.

Okay.

[Berliegh]

I didn't vote but I believe there are some that possess the brains of their target sex and some that don't.....you can usually define the one's that do...

[Kate]

To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

But isn't it true that in general, men are more sexual and women more emotional?

And isn't it true that in general, HRT makes M2Fs more emotional and F2Ms more sexual?

So... doesn't it make sense that in general, these effects would be welcome?

I'm not suggesting HRT or these effects "make someone a man/woman." But they sure seem to change SOME aspects of the personality to be more in line with one's gender identity.

A number of us have said that given a choice between the mental changes and physical ones, we'd pick the mental ones. I still stand by that. My post-HRT experience of the world is far, FAR different than what it was. Now, maybe a LOT of that is from the inner growth I've done this last year too, but STILL... I am not the same person I was. Whether I'm a "real" man or woman I leave up to others to judge me for if it makes them feel better about themselves and THEIR insecurities, but I do know I feel RIGHT in my head for the first time in my life, however you explain it.

~Kate~

[Nero]

To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

But isn't it true that in general, men are more sexual and women more emotional?

And isn't it true that in general, HRT makes M2Fs more emotional and F2Ms more sexual?

So... doesn't it make sense that in general, these effects would be welcome?

I'm not suggesting HRT or these effects "make someone a man/woman." But they sure seem to change SOME aspects of the personality to be more in line with one's gender identity.

A number of us have said that given a choice between the mental changes and physical ones, we'd pick the mental ones. I still stand by that. My post-HRT experience of the world is far, FAR different than what it was. Now, maybe a LOT of that is from the inner growth I've done this last year too, but STILL... I am not the same person I was. Whether I'm a "real" man or woman I leave up to others to judge me for if it makes them feel better about themselves and THEIR insecurities, but I do know I feel RIGHT in my head for the first time in my life, however you explain it.

~Kate~

*sighs heavily*

Dammit! My work is never done.

I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

[Wendy]

I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

Dear Nero,

Yes I am/was hoping I would find a magic pill and everything would go "puff" and all would be fine. However one of the issues with this stuff is that you become illogical and look for rational explanations for a condition that seems at best illogical.  I happen to agree with Kate and I am also in the tree.

Why would your mom be upset with people trying different things in hopes that it will be repaired or things will be crystal clear?  I seem to remember a recent survey in which people could switch their bodies to the target gender.  No less were the responses overwhelmingly in favor of doing the operation, they were also willing to accept a huge risk of death in the procedure!

[Nero]

I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

Dear Nero,

Yes I am/was hoping I would find a magic pill and everything would go "puff" and all would be fine. However one of the issues with this stuff is that you become illogical and look for rational explanations for a condition that seems at best illogical.  I happen to agree with Kate and I am also in the tree.

Why would your mom be upset with people trying different things in hopes that it will be repaired or things will be crystal clear?  I seem to remember a recent survey in which people could switch their bodies to the target gender.  No less were the responses overwhelmingly in favor of doing the operation, they were also willing to accept a huge risk of death in the procedure!

My mom was insulted because she's a woman, not a machine that runs on estrogen.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 11:07:02 AM

Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

This is a personal subject. How can it not be personal. Nero, when you use terms like 'wax poetic,' which is a putdown to people who've had a certain experience with hrt (even if I didn't share that experience).

T will not make me or break me. When I go on it, it will only be to become more passable. No more, no less.

You haven't been on it yet, and until then, you don't know what it will and won't do specifically for you. Anything else is just conjecture, isn't it?

(And I'm not addressing you specifically, Ell. I won't stoop to your level and make my argument personal)
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

As I mentioned in another post, what they might be experiencing is freedom from the 'inappropriate' hormone they feel are kind of lashing them to their assigned gender. To an mtf, suppressing T  and boosting estrogen is a very real affect, in terms of allowing one to more objectively deal with your gender. It doesn't magically turn people into something they're not, but it does afford them a freedom to allow whatever is inside to come out and to accept socialization in your target gender without your body rebelling against it. Some people get profoundly, outwardly changed by that experience and others don't seem to be.

I shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

It's not laughable because she hasn't done it. You don't get to laugh at it until you've gone through that one and been there. And by the way, isn't laughing at someone else's deeply felt experience kind of a personal attack, Mr. 'no-personal-attacks'?

Gina M.

It don't matter one bit whether I've been on HRT or not.
One main reason I hold this view is:

I have a sex drive that rivals most men I know (and no I ain't saying this for machismo purposes because I actually find it a nuisance.) Like an itch that needs to be scratched a dozen times a day.

When I was institutionalized in a teen psych ward, one of the things written in my file and discussed with my folks was: Patient is overly aggressive, combative, and over-sexed.

Now they probably felt that was significant and abnormal for a 14 year old girl, which is probably why they made it an issue.
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

[Kate]

Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

You don't believe that T generally increases sex drive and aggression in people?

You don't believe that women generally become more emotional at certain times of the month because of fluctuations in E?

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, I really am! I understand that gender identity is independent of one's physical makeup, and that HRT doesn't "make" anyone into men or women. But for SOME people, HRT certainly seems to induce certain male-like or female-like behaviours and responses. And not just in TSs, but I swear I read that some women take small amounts of T to increase their sex drive... and aren't some rapists and whatnot offered castration as a "cure" for their impulses? And women go on HRT to stop the insane mood swings of menopause, right?

~Kate~

[Nero]

It don't matter one bit whether I've been on HRT or not.
One main reason I hold this view is:

I have a sex drive that rivals most men I know (and no I ain't saying this for machismo purposes because I actually find it a nuisance.) Like an itch that needs to be scratched a dozen times a day.

When I was institutionalized in a teen psych ward, one of the things written in my file and discussed with my folks was: Patient is overly aggressive, combative, and over-sexed.

Now they probably felt that was significant and abnormal for a 14 year old girl, which is probably why they made it an issue.
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

And I'm sorry you can't admit that you don't totally know the answer yet.

ciao bambino,
Gina M.

One more time.
I also know a woman with a severe hormonal condition which causes her body to produce massive amounts of testosterone at normal levels for a man. When she told me she had the condition, we talked at length about it.
Because I wanted to know what it does to a genetic female. I had all the questions.
She said she doesn't feel any differently from before, doesn't think any differently, and certainly doesn't feel like a man. The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.
She hates that she has to wax her body and that her hair falls out, but the only changes are aesthetic ones.
She's also very girly I might add.
It seems the only ones reporting all this mental stuff are the ones who are looking and expecting to feel them.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 11:56:45 AM

Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

You don't believe that T generally increases sex drive and aggression in people?

You don't believe that women generally become more emotional at certain times of the month because of fluctuations in E?

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, I really am! I understand that gender identity is independent of one's physical makeup, and that HRT doesn't "make" anyone into men or women. But for SOME people, HRT certainly seems to induce certain male-like or female-like behaviours and responses. And not just in TSs, but I swear I read that some women take small amounts of T to increase their sex drive... and aren't some rapists and whatnot offered castration as a "cure" for their impulses? And women go on HRT to stop the insane mood swings of menopause, right?

~Kate~

If you'll look at my earlier posts, that's exactly what I did say. That estrogen makes one more emotional, and testosterone makes one more horny.
One of my pet peeves is when someone replies to a post without reading the rest of the thread beforehand. 

[Kate]

The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.

But a few posts ago, you mentioned that you always were oversexed, and suggested that F2Ms who claim T made them feel that way were just experiencing a placebo effect...?

~Kate~

[Nero]

I shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

Tell mom it's not laughable because she hasn't done it. You don't get to laugh at it until you've gone through that one and been there. And by the way, isn't laughing at someone else's deeply felt experience kind of a personal attack, Mr. 'no-personal-attacks'?

Gina M.

Okaaaay. So a genetic woman doesn't have the right to find the notion that her gender is nothing more than a chemical running through her veins and if replaced with the opposite chemical she'd be for all intents and purposes, a man, laughable and highly insulting?

[Melissa]

Another kitty stuck up the same tree.

Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

[Nero]

The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.

But a few posts ago, you mentioned that you always were oversexed, and suggested that F2Ms who claim T made them feel that way were just experiencing a placebo effect...?

~Kate~

No. It's a fact that testosterone increases libido and estrogen makes one more emotional.
But

Horny does not equal man.

Emotional does not equal woman.







Posted on: July 27, 2007, 12:24:40 PMOkay. I'm not addressing anyone personally, so don't start.

But I'm going to be frank: If you didn't already think and feel like your target gender before HRT, then you are not that gender.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 12:26:34 PMIf you think feeling more emotional equates to thinking and feeling and acting like a woman, you are sadly mistaken, and any gg who happened onto this thread is positively ROLLING right now.

[Rachael]

im with nero, hormones express  characteristics in us, that are symptomatic of the male and female gender. because they generally have these hormones... if you catch my drift.
men are men
women are women, with or without drugs.  post menapausal women are still women, pre pubecent boys are still men, dispite not having the same levels or hormones. people are people, and if nobody was a girl before hrt, then they sure as hell wont be afterwards...

Hormones are catalysts... nothing more.

[Nero]

Another kitty stuck up the same tree.

Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

[Nero]

And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

[Lisbeth]

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

[Nero]

ps. I think I know who you take after in your family.

Lol I am Mama's boy!

[Kate]

And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucegenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

But even you said that the sexual and emotional effects of HRT are real...

Then say that those of us who claim to have experienced these effects are just experiencing a placebo effect...

Do you see why I'm getting lost?

~Kate~

[Rachael]

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

so is exactly what your doing right now... prejudicince doctors simply on personal views...
pot calling mr kettle?


R