The Hormone Debate

[Shana A]

The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

Wendy,

My partner, who happens to have been born w/ female body, once built a house from scratch, fixes things around the house, etc. Zie says, "if guys can do it....". If you like doing something generally associated with being male, why should you have to give it up?

I felt much more vulnerable after I transitioned, and doing things like shopping at a 24 hour grocery store at 2AM haven't felt safe since.

Zythyra

[Nero]

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means ) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

Tell you mom I have DeWalts...

Ha ha I knew a classy lady like you would only work with the best!

[Rachael]

not really, there can be male feminists. but f2ms who manbash really arnt are they?

[Nero]

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means ) they're not 'really' female.

Hmm, this coming from the guy who said any ftm who used the word "patriarchy" isn't a real man.

Was that a joke?

ciao,
Gina M.

It was an exaggeration. That post was intended to be humorous. Men who support the feminist movement are humanists who believe in equal rights for all and probably do know and use the feminist jargon. That's not what I'm talking about. Men should support women. Men should care that women are treated equally. Men should fight for women's rights. I just see that as chivalry. Thing is though, while a man may be saddened or even full of righteous anger at the subjugation of women, a man would not bash or spew hatred toward his own gender. That would be missing the whole point.

You would be surprised at the number of ftms who have some ingrained hatred toward men. They relate to and prefer the company of women and like Rachael said, they man-bash. Constantly. They say they hate all men, and are full of all kinds of stories where men were sexist toward them and how they're violent abusers, etc etc.
There were a few posts on here a while back from ftms demonstrating this very thing. I'll see if they're still on here.

It seems nobody gives a damn about hatred toward men. I may be coming from a vastly different viewpoint than a lot of ftms who've been in the feminist movement around mostly women prior to transition. As a man and one who has almost exclusively associated with men - I take personal offense to ftms who bash men. I am highly insulted each time I hear one do it. And it's like they just take for granted that 'we were all born female, we understand *wink*'. Assuming everyone in the room or on the board comes from a similar background as them and will appreciate their rantings about men. These are the types I have a very hard time believing are men. Or if they do possess a male mind or whatever are certainly unworthy of the title man.

If you were in a room full of mtfs and they started saying horrible things about women, degrading them, talking about them the way men talk about women, giving you a full rundown on their latest conquest complete with degrading language and details about her body parts, and all this with the assumed understanding that 'we were all born male, we get it, we know how women are *wink* *wink*' - would you not be personally insulted?
Would you not be outraged?
Would you say to yourself - 'there is no way in hades these disgusting slobs are female.' I don't know nor do I give  a damn what they are, but one thing is sure they are not women.
Would you feel insulted that people see how they behave and assume most mtfs are like that?
Would the very idea of being lumped with such ogres appall you?

[Rachael]

whats more amuseing, is the unwritten rule in #chat, that if you cant tell people they pass, then dont tell them anything. 'telling the truth (if not that they pass) is bad and makeing folk feel bad is unfair as they have suffered so much already *coughsplutterdies*

[Nero]

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means ) they're not 'really' female.

But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

You're right, it is really bad when people feel that they need to bully others over to their way of thinking.

Get a grip.

[Lisbeth]

However we are discussing if hormones effect your brain.  I say they influenced my behavior!  Hormones have not removed all the confusion.  There is no confusion to me if I could pick a gender and wave the magic wand which one I would pick.  The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

There are very few facts that we know at this time.  You need less than a full hand of fingers to count them:

* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system.

* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system.

* Cross gender HRT changes the macroscopic structure to the brain to resemble that of the gender matching the hormones.

* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.

That's it.  Until somebody does a study on other effects, the rest is just speculation.

[Rachael]

* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system. <-- so does estrogen in females, women can get horny too cant they?

* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system. so all manic depressive men are full of estrogen and not just depressed? estrogen simply makes moods more vivid, not more of them.

* Cross gender HRT changes the macroscopic structure to the brain to resemble that of the gender matching the hormones.

* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.i dont know, i performed better with my exams recently on hrt than when off. i was more able to sit and learn....

[Lisbeth]

* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system. <-- so does estrogen in females, women can get horny too cant they?

My experience agrees with yours, but scientific studies on that subject are inconclusive.

* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system. so all manic depressive men are full of estrogen and not just depressed? estrogen simply makes moods more vivid, not more of them.

Definition of Correlation

* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.i dont know, i performed better with my exams recently on hrt than when off. i was more able to sit and learn....

As with all statistics, your mileage may vary.

[Nero]

There are men who do support feminism though. (supposedly) No one that I've ever heard of but that's what I'm constantly told everytime I rant about a militant feminist ftm.
I'm not sure if I believe that though. But that's what I'm always told everytime I tell a man bashing ftm off.
Or could be they're just defending themselves for expressing blatant female behaviour. ha ha ha
I think you nailed it, Gina.
So now you agree with me that men do not rant for hours about the patriarchy or man-bash?

[Keira]

I knew plenty of men, who even between each other, no women involved, did debate women's right and issues quite seriously. Maybe its just the crowd you people are around. Not all men are pigs, I swear!

[Nero]

I knew plenty of men, who even between each other, no women involved, did debate women's right and issues quite seriously. Maybe its just the crowd you people are around. Not all men are pigs, I swear!

Well, that's good to hear. Men should care about equal rights for women. While I do strongly believe there are careers women should not do, I think everything else should be equal. I mean I do have a mother after all.

[Nero]

There are men who do support feminism though. (supposedly) No one that I've ever heard of but that's what I'm constantly told everytime I rant about a militant feminist ftm.
I'm not sure if I believe that though. But that's what I'm always told everytime I tell a man bashing ftm off.
Or could be they're just defending themselves for expressing blatant female behaviour. ha ha ha
I think you nailed it, Gina.
So now you agree with me that men do not rant for hours about the patriarchy or man-bash?

Man bashing I don't know about. I do believe there are a lot of ftm-self-identified people who are somewhere on that spectrum, but aren't really male (and they'd probably say the same about mtfs. It's complex.) And they'd probably pummel me senseless if they heard me say that.

What I'm still trying to figure out is... do most ftms not hang with natal men because they're disgusted by 'male expression, attitudes and male culture' or is it because they're intimidated by natal men? Whatever it is... it's amazing how many ftms identify as queer and stay within the queer ghetto environment or, even more specifically, within the world of queer women. So is this a political choice or a result of intimidation/fear? Ftms out there... agree/disagree?

ciao,
Gina M.

SHE SHOOTS! SHE SCORES!

So you really have witnessed this type of phenomenon. The intimidation/fear thing is something I never considered.
I just assumed that the ones who male bash and pontificate (thanks for the word Kiera, perfect word for guys like this)
about the patriarchy. Common subjects vary from how men have displayed sexism towards them or abused them, etc.
I just always assumed this was ingrained behaviour from their involvement in underground militant feminist groups.
I could never for the life of me get why these types would even transition even if they really were male - they didn't associate with males except for other ftms who shared their man-hating ways, and identify as heterosexual men yet stay in the all queer female world as you've also noticed. I just can't understand why they want to be men if they dislike men and don't wish to be around them. And it was like I could not be comfortable around them and they got upset with everything I talked about (it was always sexist, misogynist, inappropriate, crude, etc) Even when all I was talking about was sex! What in sam hill is 'misogynistic' about sex?

One other phenomenon I've noted with these types is a severe genital preoccupation. They are most often stone butch and on top of that are too disgusted to even touch themselves (meaning they don't even know what an orgasm is ). Do most stone butch lesbians go to that extreme? I doubt it. They seem to be highly sexed.
And then there's the bizarre ordeals when you try go out anywhere with them. You go to a strip club expecting to relax and have a good time and after a few beers they start getting weird on you. 'I gotta piss man.' You point them toward the men's. Off they go. Then a few minutes later come back. 'I haven't mastered this stand to pee device. I'm gonna piss all down my legs.'
'Then go in the stall.'
'I can't do that. I pee standing up.'
'If you've gotta piss, you'll sit your ass on the seat and piss!' Goes off back to the men's and by now you're like , this dudes freakin weird. Comes back like an hour later smelling of piss with damp spots on his trousers.
You finally start to relax, and then all of a sudden, he's offended by the music. You're like what the hell's wrong with it? He says he can't bear to hear another note because of all the obscenities and degradation of women. 'I've got to leave. I got to go home now'. It's freakin 11:30!

So yeah these types are just...well I don't have the words.

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

[Kat]

so wait, they are at a STRIP CLUB and are offended by the music? because it is degrading to women? *boggle* 

[Nero]

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

And my other question: why do so many ftms (but not all) seem to stay within queer communities instead of being a man within the larger society. Is it a political choice, a 'folks like us' or are they intimidated by being men within the larger culture and all that entails. From my outsider's perspective, it seems so limiting (and I feel the same way about transwomen who only hang out with each other... I don't get it.) Is my original assumption not fair or incorrect... am I way off base? I wanna know.

Yeah it's definitely either one of two things. The 'folks like us' thing as you said. They just would rather hang with those who share a common bond and understanding  or trans men and women who don't integrate into greater society with natal males and females are intimidated. And that makes me think they are too insecure in their manhood/womanhood. And may believe they are less than natal males and females. You know, may think they're not worthy or something.

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

From what I've seen, if they identify as straight, it seems like most of their partners identify as lesbian, bi, or queer identified ex-lesbians (sometimes sarcastically known here as 'has-be-ans!).

I think sometimes this can't be helped and for some guys it's not really a choice so much as a lot of non-trans straight men and women won't date a TS. And since most ftms don't have bottom surgery, a lot of strictly straight women won't date them because they have a vagina and she's not 'gay'.
But dating a queer woman doesn't mean  he should hold exclusively to that community and not venture out. I don't understand that.

It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

[Lisbeth]

So you really have witnessed this type of phenomenon. The intimidation/fear thing is something I never considered.

"Intimidation" and "fear?"  That's my reality.  I've been accused of male-bashing, but I don't hate them.  I'm scared of them.  I've had too many bad experiences.

[Dennis]

It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

I suspect you're right there Nero. The young guys all seem kind of uncomfortable with bio men. Older bio guys too, don't have quite so much macho posturing; they don't seem to feel the need to prove themselves male like young guys do, so they're probably an easier group to hang out with. The crowd I run with are loggers and fishermen, all around my age (40's), and it's been pretty easy for me to fit in.

Also you're probably not going to meet many of the guys who are comfortable in the rest of society because we pretty well just blend in. I don't really feel the need to go to support groups or anything like that. I've got friends. Which is probably why neither you nor Regina sees FtM guys who are comfortable with bio guys. The ones who are are hanging out with bio guys, having a beer and talking about fishing, cars, and women.

Dennis

[Nero]

It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

I suspect you're right there Nero. The young guys all seem kind of uncomfortable with bio men. Older bio guys too, don't have quite so much macho posturing; they don't seem to feel the need to prove themselves male like young guys do, so they're probably an easier group to hang out with. The crowd I run with are loggers and fishermen, all around my age (40's), and it's been pretty easy for me to fit in.

Also you're probably not going to meet many of the guys who are comfortable in the rest of society because we pretty well just blend in. I don't really feel the need to go to support groups or anything like that. I've got friends. Which is probably why neither you nor Regina sees FtM guys who are comfortable with bio guys. The ones who are are hanging out with bio guys, having a beer and talking about fishing, cars, and women.

Dennis

It's kind of ironic isn't it. It's always assumed the earlier transitioners have such an easier time integrating. But it seems the other way around with ftm. But men are different from women.

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't notice the ones who blend in since most pass after a few years of T.
And you're probably right, the guys who are more comfortable with themselves probably just do the required number of group sessions to get their letters and then they're out of that scene. So there probably are younger guys who are cool, I just don't see them.
It would be really nice to meet some in my area without that big chip on their shoulder that don't get all weird on you after an hour or so of hanging out. They could be 20 or 80, I've always gotten along with all ages, just as long as you can actually hang with them. 

[Rachael]

does seem odd that the ballence is inverted, m2fs blend easier earlier, and f2ms later. this is more likely social conditioning of men and women, than hormonal issues though.

[Rachael]

3rd world?


as an english 20yo girl, i will tell you now, i may know some trans people (8 in total i belive ive ever met) but i solely hang out with normal people, if someone happens to be trans, then fine, but its not my friendship base. i have male and female friends. i party, i dance, i drink, i socialise.  so far, ive yet to not fit in better... i enjoy the company of other girls (natal yes) and i also enjoy being with men. although, hey, one person doesnt change your view that all young trans girls are un blending...