Why TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS

[Fae]

those who say they had no choice will be respected by the caregivers following SOC guidlines, if they can show that their desperation is not caused by some innate reason of insanity.

those who say they have a choice will be respected by the caregivers following SOC guidelines if they can show that their decision is well-founded and not caused by some innate reason of insanity.

in both cases, SOC guidelines require the patient to be fully aware of the consequences of, and accept personal responsibility for their decision(s).

so, unless, heaven forbid, you're insane, the SOC will treat both types of patient with the same respect.     

While my therapist and my endo made me fully aware of the consequences of my actions, the word "choice" never came up, but nevertheless I did choose to see a therapist for my gender issues, and I chose to begin HRT after sorting out issues with my therapist.  Both fully respect me and the decisions I've made to better myself. 

Yes there have been some consequences, but mostly I haven't had much to complain about, so I don't (aside from the occasional day where the hormones make me feel moody...I swear it's PMS  ) unless I'm feeling sad or someone treats me badly for no reason.

I think I have the right to do that much.

if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy".  really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen".  period.

i understand why you say that it isn't a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let's use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it's somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can't handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn't complain about the bad quality?

ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you'd have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don't actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice "welcome... idiot". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as "clothes for freaks") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn't file a complaint?

mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions

I love those comparisons Anaya.

It's like if you lived in a really bad, polluted city and had no means to move.  There's no real alternatives to make the air cleaner.  You know that because you need to breathe in order to live, you breathe, knowing full well that the air is polluted so badly that it will cause serious health complications.  Does that mean you make a choice not to breathe?  Of course not, that'd be silly.  But that doesn't mean you don't complain about the bad air quality.

The same applies for transition.  For some people (myself included) the situation got so bad it came down to a choice to transition or to continue suffering (a.k.a. dying).  Nobody wants to choose the latter, right?  It's like my air quality example, it's just silly. 

However you look at it, you made a choice, but that doesn't mean that you can't complain.  There are factors we need to consider IMO.  If, for example, you have been on HRT for several months and pass most of the time, have been to therapy on a regular basis, decide to go full-time and are relatively stable (holding down a job, attending school, have a support base, etc.), then if people treat you poorly you have a right to complain because they're just being rude and inconsiderate.  You do the best you can, but it doesn't mean there aren't hardships you just forget about as if they don't bother you.

BUT, if you were to jump right into living full-time without HRT, without therapy, and were not relatively stable, and people harassed and even outright threatened you, then I would say you have created your own personal little hell, and don't really have the right to complain because you're at fault.

And please, this is all IMHO, and I ask that you respect that and think before anyone attacks me for my opinion.

~Fae

[Melissa]

Choosing to transition is like choosing to breathe.  You can choose not to breathe just like you can choose not to transition.  Sooner or later you'll have to because the instinct to breathe or transition is built into us.  Some people choose not to hold their breath until they run out of air and some people choose to hold their breath as long as possible until they nearly pass out.  Some of the people realized holding your breath as long as you could was pointless, does not mean that they "chose" to breathe whereas the ones who held it as long as possible didn't "choose" to breathe, but just had to.  Regardless of when the people started breathing, they still all needed to eventually breathe at some point.

[cindianna_jones]

I believe that this is just an argument of semantics.  Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Cindi

[Rachael]

you mean we cannot all be sensible and listen to others??? 

R

[Sophia]

i think its less to do with insainity, its more that some people belive they must state they felt one way, to be accepted as 'truely transexual' by the ->-bleeped-<-stapo...

R

Exactly.

The elitist bs is entirely what is going on here. Telling someone their GID is less valid because of worldviews is just the psychoelitist ->-bleeped-<-stapo trying to push everyone else down. Heaven forbid someone has a relatively uneventful transition. Heaven forbid someone sees their transition as a choice. Heaven forbid someone not follow gender stereotypes or be attracted to the opposite gender post HRT.

All of these ridiculous and stupid little rules we apparently have to follow to avoid being torn down by the people that should understand the most what we're going through. Its sickening and frankly I see these elitist scumbags as no better then the hicks that ride past screaming "->-bleeped-<-got!" or "dyke!" or "chick with a dick!" out a window at us.

Its all the same kind of screwed up idiocy.

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 12:32:50 PM

I believe that this is just an argument of semantics.  Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.

It really is a semantics argument in the end. I just find it disgusting that some people use these semantics to be "->-bleeped-<--er then thou" and perpetuate the elitist bull that taints the transsexual community at every turn.

[Rachael]

in a place where people hate thier penis, they must find something else to measure....

R

[Anaya]

you mean we cannot all be sensible and listen to others??? 

R

no that would imply that the others might be right too, and that would make our side look less right. That is unacceptable!

sympathizing with the enemy... you must be one of them! trying to twist our minds! You want to take our souls! WITCH! BURRRRN!

yeah guess some of us (me? noooo) are overreacting

in a place where people hate thier penis, they must find something else to measure....

R

my index finger is 8.5cm big, how big is yours? 

... damn it do i really have such big fingers?

[Rachael]

and the 'omg provide evidence' people when someone lists a unexplainable given such as 'some people regret transition thus might not be suffering gid in the first place thus gid must not be the only cause of trans'

[Dorothy]

if you say that you chose transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but youd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i dont know who you are trying to fool with this i chose transition to be happy.  really? well, then i dont want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have chosen.  period.

i understand why you say that it isnt a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
lets use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it\\\'s somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i cant handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldnt complain about the bad quality?

ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you\\\'d have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i dont actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice welcome... idiot. So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as clothes for freaks) . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldnt file a complaint?

mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions

Lol forgive me for laughing but that is just the most absurd comparison Ive ever heard, more so if you take GID as an example.  DVD, walmart, audio?  Lol That was cute though, really cute.  Thanks for the laugh. 

mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions

I think you should unless you want to pursue a career in the comedy business.

[Anaya]

if you say that you \\\"chose\\\" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you\\\'d better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don\\\'t know who you are trying to fool with this \\\"i chose transition to be happy\\\".  really? well, then i don\\\'t want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have \\\"chosen\\\".  period.

i understand why you say that it isn\\\'t a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let\\\'s use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it\\\'s somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can\\\'t handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn\\\'t complain about the bad quality?

ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you\\\'d have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don\\\'t actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice \\\"welcome... idiot\\\". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as \\\"clothes for freaks\\\") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn\\\'t file a complaint?

mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions

Lol forgive for laughing but that is just the most absurd comparison Ive ever heard, more so if you take GID as an example.  DVD, walmart, audio?  Lol That was cute though, really cute.  Thanks for the laugh. 

you're welcome.
i always surprise myself with what i come up with when im real sleepy. Usually i don't even understand what i meant, but im sure it makes sense.

[katia]

I may be acting a little self-centred here, but I assume that since I was the one who actually made the point of saying I transitioned to be happy, you are referencing my blog and other previous posts?

megan, i wasn't referring to any of your posts or your blog, yet i think that didn't matter anyway since you said what you wanted to say.  i said:

i stopped reading their confusing threads several months ago.  i'd ignore them if i could but i can't. 

[melissa90299]

In other words, what these women say is their opinion, it is up to each and every one of us to know if what we feel fits what they have said or not.  People can say whatever they want but if we don't share the same feelings, nothing is going to change the way we view ourselves, our womanhood or "our" transition.

tink

Tink, I know you watched Taboo last night, I forget who it was that said "It was not a choice!" This is the one clear mindset that separates the women from those who might have something else going on.

I would have to be completey out of mind to choose to start transition at 54, my whole life I knew what I was, I just didn't think it was possible, (I had a lot of bad information, it wasn't until the internet was available to me that I found out it was possible)

Of course, when and how to transition,what to do first, etc. are choices, I think some here who say it is a choice get caught up in semantics as well, my strong feeling is that if you do your soul searching and fundamentally still think this is a choice, it is likely that the best choice is not to transiton or, at least, consider every other alternative before you transition.



Posted on: August 09, 2007, 10:44:53 AM

I believe that this is just an argument of semantics.  Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Cindi

I understand that some of the arguments are semantic, again, when to start transition, what to do first, do you have the financial capability, those are choices, it is like what people have always said about the music business, to succeed, you have to want it more than you have ever wanted anything and be prepared to make every sacrifice imaginable, then still know that the chances of making it are still almost non-existent. Fortunately, the chances of a successful transition are better than becoming a rock star. I am a successfully transitioned woman, not yet a rock star!

So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!

[Fae]

As a community though, could we come to a compromise on the matter of "choice?"  I personally think, that:

As individuals, we don't have a "choice" in the matter of being born with gender dysphoria.  I don't think anyone in their right mind would chose to deal with gender identity issues.  So I think we can safely say there is no choice in being TG/TS.

HOWEVER, I want to make a clarification on what our choice IS.  We do have a choice in how we handle our gender identity issues.  If that is to transition, great.  If it is to find some other way other than transition, awesome.  But we do have a choice as responsible human beings.

Those who say "TS's with a choice arn't really TS" are, IMO, making a statement that just doesn't make sense.  The real issue here is what their choice is regarding how they will handle their gender issues, NOT if they are TG/TS.  If someone identifies themselves as TG/TS, then no one else should think they can take away that person's right to self identify just because they don't fit some kind of standard.

~Fae

[Jeannette]

"It was not a choice!" This is the one clear mindset that separates the women from those who might have something else going on.

So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!

Agreed fully.

[Seshatneferw]

So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!

Agreed fully.

Why? Is it really that awful?

Mind you, I am currently acting just the way you suggest: trying to figure out a way to cope with my GID without transitioning, and being pretty optimistic about the chances to succeed in this. Nevertheless, from what several people have said or implied, both here and elsewhere, transition isn't necessarily nearly as bad as you make it sound. In some cases this can even be predicted with a fair degree of certainty. In such a case, why could the person not choose to transition, if they were realistic about the risks and benefits?

  Nfr

[melissa90299]

So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!

Agreed fully.

Why? Is it really that awful?

Mind you, I am currently acting just the way you suggest: trying to figure out a way to cope with my GID without transitioning, and being pretty optimistic about the chances to succeed in this. Nevertheless, from what several people have said or implied, both here and elsewhere, transition isn't necessarily nearly as bad as you make it sound. In some cases this can even be predicted with a fair degree of certainty. In such a case, why could the person not choose to transition, if they were realistic about the risks and benefits?

  Nfr

I didn't say anything at all about my transition. You are assuming things that were not said. My transition was successful beyond my wildest dreams but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.

Now, all you choice people who have not transitioned can choose to attack me or argue with my POV or you can try to understand my viewpoint as a successfully transitioned post-op women, not that you have to agree, just consider what I say as well as all those who innately know this is not a choice. Are we better or more truly "transsexual" than the choice people. Not at all, we just know how we feel.

[Sarah Louise]

...but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely.

Well said Melissa90299.

Sarah L.

[melissa90299]

...but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely.

Well said Melissa90299.

Sarah L.

Thanks, I try very hard to convey what I have to say without trying to sound elitist.

What baffles me is that there seems to be an envy among some of the choice people of the non-choice people. It is like there seems to be some badge of honor that goes with being unequivocally transsexual. Usually, when I see baffling posts, I go back and read that member's other posts and realize that those people are very different (different not better or worse) from me in other ways as well.

[Seshatneferw]

For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.

All right, I think I get it; the real difference in our points of view is just what we mean by 'choice'. At the point you describe, I would still consider it a choice, although an extremely limited one; and similarly, I most definitely would not suggest anyone to choose transition unles they were very very sure that it is the right choice for them.

All in all, I have a strong feling that we agree, except for the definition of one lousy word.

  Nfr

[Sophia]

For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.

All right, I think I get it; the real difference in our points of view is just what we mean by 'choice'. At the point you describe, I would still consider it a choice, although an extremely limited one; and similarly, I most definitely would not suggest anyone to choose transition unles they were very very sure that it is the right choice for them.

All in all, I have a strong feling that we agree, except for the definition of one lousy word.

  Nfr

That seems like the crux of the misunderstanding doesn't it?

The people that say that they didn't have a choice considered the option of transitioning versus the alternative (which is probably dying) as such an unviable option in comparison to the former that they have a hard time seeing a choice as a choice. A metaphor for a situation in which viability only lies in one option exactly.

They believe that by acknowledging that there are other options beyond transitioning (even if all those options suck or are just not viable) it means you aren't to the point where your choice is between transitioning and dying.


The people that say they do have a choice are simply stating the reality in a rather blunt and honest fashion. Killing oneself is an option, just an awful awful horrible one. So when they look at the choice between killing oneself and transitioning, they still see it (by definition) as a choice. The choice to die may be one that none of us would pick, but its still there.

These folks believe that by claiming you had no choice, you are acting as though fate is guiding your hand or that you aren't in control of your own actions.


Both groups are stable and intelligent in relation to their own views and off base completely in their assessments of their opponents. It would do us all good (myself included), no matter what your view is on this, to actually read the opposition's posts before you assume what their reasoning is.


Megan and company (including myself) recognize that everything we do in our lives is a choice even if all the options but one are untenable.

Melissa and company recognize that when every option but one is completely horrific it becomes difficult to see them as options at all and sometimes when people can see them as options it implies a greater number of viable options.

Have we all learned something from each other now? Or is the bickering going to continue?