Do I Look, or Could I Pass, as Female? 4.0

[Iliana.Found]

Hey you are all looking fab!!! Here are a few of me pre-HRT:







So what do you think?? Do I have a chance at passing now?? Thanks!!

I have been told so far that the only thing that I need to take care of in order to pass is facial hair which is great(nice and easy)!!! I had future plans to get FFS which as you all know costs a pretty penny, but if it can be avoided then great more money for a vacay. Does anyone else have an opinion? Honesty is very much appreciated. To me I look fem, but I would like to know what others perceive as well. Thanks

[jname]

You have a terrific smile

[MirnaMinkoff]

MirnaMinkoff you are awesome!

Thank you so much for you insightful input! I didn't even know there was temporary hair color, hehe. I am going to check out that blush you mentioned too. I did figure you meant eyebrow hair shaping. I could pluck them but I don't want to mess it up. Again thanks for helping me, I do not have any girls around that would help me with this type of knowledge. I am 40 (shh I want to pass as early 30s so THANK YOU for that complement  ) At this age all my friends are all married and off doing stuff and no time to help me be more feminine. Hanging around 20-30 year olds to learn makeup tips and fashion stuff seems like a bad idea, so youtube it is...

Here I included another pic, 2 with makeup. I was trying to make the bad nose smaller, still needs work..How does the make up look tho?. Also YES I used to be one of them tough guys and got the nose broke a few times. (see the image of me in the corner, my hair is pulled back, i was in my mid 20s). I also added other body shots of me now for comparison. My theory is Lymes disease can turn you into a girl. I was so sick and lost so much bulk muscle mass there is no way I could get it back now. Working out now just makes me look girly I guess. I am starting to accept it. I am still a badass tho 

p.s. I LOVE doing my nails!  Who would of thunk it!


Love,
Jade

Glad to help.  Out of curiosity tend contracting lyme disease end up spurring you to transition? Meaning you had been considering it but after getting ill and the changes it caused, it motivated you to go ahead?  Do you think you would have decided to transition if you had never gotten lyme disease? 

Also, non-permanent hair color can be found in every hair color section of a drug store - you just have to look closely at the box info.  85% are permanent color and they say so on the box, but if you look closely you will also see boxes that say non-permanent color.  I like non-permanent for experimenting. 

Youtube is an awesome place for anyone to get make-up tips.  Women do great videos but so do drag queens - they are the masters as contouring and hiding certain features.  (Even straight csi women will tell you drag queens are make-up freaking ninjas, but you can tone down their results easily by adjusting colors and amounts.  Drag queens are usually doing stage make-up so it's more extreme in many respects, but the good contour tips and camouflaging advice is still very sound.) 

I will also say, because transwomen may or may not know this, you can go to any department store make-up counter or Sephora for a free make-over anytime. They will have their trained staff work with you on the best make-up for your face and skin type and they usually do an excellent job.  Now they do this because they want to sell you product, but it's not a requirement - the make over is free and you can buy some of the stuff they use if you like but it's not a requirement.  (But usually you find one or two awesome things you love on yourself and end up buying, and this is why free make-overs are offered at every make up counter, they do increase sales and introduce you to new products.)  It's a great way to find out what works best for you and get some professional advice, with out having to spend a small fortune testing out different make up. 

[Jade_404]

Glad to help.  Out of curiosity tend contracting lyme disease end up spurring you to transition? Meaning you had been considering it but after getting ill and the changes it caused, it motivated you to go ahead?  Do you think you would have decided to transition if you had never gotten lyme disease? 

Also, non-permanent hair color can be found in every hair color section of a drug store - you just have to look closely at the box info.  85% are permanent color and they say so on the box, but if you look closely you will also see boxes that say non-permanent color.  I like non-permanent for experimenting. 

Youtube is an awesome place for anyone to get make-up tips.  Women do great videos but so do drag queens - they are the masters as contouring and hiding certain features.  (Even straight csi women will tell you drag queens are make-up freaking ninjas, but you can tone down their results easily by adjusting colors and amounts.  Drag queens are usually doing stage make-up so it's more extreme in many respects, but the good contour tips and camouflaging advice is still very sound.) 

I will also say, because transwomen may or may not know this, you can go to any department store make-up counter or Sephora for a free make-over anytime. They will have their trained staff work with you on the best make-up for your face and skin type and they usually do an excellent job.  Now they do this because they want to sell you product, but it's not a requirement - the make over is free and you can buy some of the stuff they use if you like but it's not a requirement.  (But usually you find one or two awesome things you love on yourself and end up buying, and this is why free make-overs are offered at every make up counter, they do increase sales and introduce you to new products.)  It's a great way to find out what works best for you and get some professional advice, with out having to spend a small fortune testing out different make up.

If I had never gotten Lymes disease I may have not decided to transition. My Dads side of the family drilled it into me when I was little about what gender specific activities I should and should not do. Put the fear of god into me if I played with girly things. I am still not totally decided on transition, lots of fears and questions. I am 90% sure I should at least partially transition. I pretty much feel like arguing with my hormone balance now is a losing battle. I could repeat the heavy regiment of body building exercise and nutrition as well as take testosterone and supplements to rebuild to how I was in my 20s. That seems like a waste and I was so angry and aggressive back then. I just want to be me now, not some fake "man" persona and body I built up to please those around me.

I always knew that I was different than the other guys but I worked out extra hard and focus on other things so I stopped thinking about it. I pushed any girly thoughts way back in my mind and banished them, I manned up. I never got chest hair or hardly any leg hair and face hair. I still always had my long hair, maybe that alone helped me not feel dysphoria for so long . A few years after getting Lymes I kinda took a look at my life and health and I was actually hiding my body, ashamed. For a while I just looked real sick, like death had a grip on me. I finally got my health managed, except some occasional Lymes flair ups and I started working out and trying to eat better. I don't have the strength or energy like I had when I was younger and the Lymes causes other neurological impairments. I am positive it caused a hormonal imbalance in me, and that I am probably already predisposition to react to female hormones. I will be getting checked for intersex conditions when I see the specialist. I found that even tho I was getting healthy again that I had to hide my body because it was now all girly curves. Hard to stand like a tough man when most of that bulk faded away. People started noticing, asking why I stood / walked /sat like a girl. Strangers thinking I am a girl, saying ma'am or Ms. When I had a goatee , people doing a double take... maybe looking at me like I was a freak.

Now I need to convince the therapist that a low dose of E will help me physically and mentally. That I am not crazy and I understand completely what is happening in my body and what needs to be done to fix it. My body is changing, but also I have hot flashes and mood swings, like when females are not getting enough E. This is all kind of complex and not the typical Transgender story that I read and hear about. My body is changing and my female mind is reawakening. I don't think I will fight her, she is strong! And I like it.

Love,
Jade

[MirnaMinkoff]

I have been told so far that the only thing that I need to take care of in order to pass is facial hair which is great(nice and easy)!!! I had future plans to get FFS which as you all know costs a pretty penny, but if it can be avoided then great more money for a vacay. Does anyone else have an opinion? Honesty is very much appreciated. To me I look fem, but I would like to know what others perceive as well. Thanks

I think you could make a gorgeous woman, but at the moment your actual brow (not just eyebrows) and jawline are quite masculine and that would be the issues that would make it difficult to pass as you are now atm.  From what I understand HRT could greatly soften and change both those features, but esp the chin/jaw line.  Bangs would hide your brow but the jaw is the only thing I see as definite masculine trait on your face that could make passing difficult, but HRT could change that so FFS may not be needed.  (Beside the facial hair, which as you said can be taken care of) 

I actually started really looking at what makes a face fem/masculine a few months ago when I read about FFS because it surprised me the two main issues FFS can tackle are brow shaving and jaw softening - and what a difference it made.  I had never really given much thought what made a face look manly or womanly, but it ended up being subtle things.  They are traits I don't think we are even consciously aware of, until they are pointed out.  (Now what makes a face beautiful I had considered, and that's almost always (whether male or female) is symmetry and balance.)

[Jaime_F]

Thank you for sharing you view points.  I can see what you mean


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[Ataraxia]

To be clear, when writing about brow shaping above it was in regards to eye-brow shaping and how everyone needs to do it.

I just remembered as part of face surgeries some transwomen have they actually do work on the actual brow, and shave it down, so I wanted to be clear I am talking EYE-BROWS in the above.  I didn't want anyone to mistakenly think I meant brow-surgery or shaving was a necessity by any means.

Oh, and Jade, I know you mentioned a possible trac-shave.  I've actually noticed there seems to be a lot of focus on the trac/ adam's apple stuff on these forums and in the trans-community but honestly I rarely notice it as an issue on most transwomen who mention it or think it's something that stands out on them.

Wait, so what's the difference? I thought brow was just short for eyebrows.

[Jade_404]

Wait, so what's the difference? I thought brow was just short for eyebrows.

You can get surgery on you brow bone. To make it smaller/smoother. it is FFS. Mens brows protrude more so than women's usually. Thats all I really know about it.

Love,
Jade

[Jade_404]

Do you mean :" A person may have surgery on his or her brow bone " ?

I am talking about FFS in general terms, I don't know anything about the procedures. I said "bone" and probably meant "line" as in "brow line". I guess it is called a brow lift. I am not planning any surgery on my forehead brow area anyway. If I do anything it will be to fix my nose and some teeth/jaw fixing that needs to be done. Like I said I don't know a lot about these FFS procedures and I wont research more until I have the money to fix stuff.

looking up info on FFS they mention...

"In facial feminization surgery a brow lift is almost always combined with forehead recontouring and hairline reshaping, procedures using the same incision. In forehead feminisation procedures, it's very important to correct the position and shape of the eyebrows with a brow lift after remodeling the frontal bone."

[MirnaMinkoff]

Do you mean :" A person may have surgery on his or her brow bone " ?

I'm sure brow shaping here usually just refers to eyebrows, but just to be safe I decided to clarify because in FFS there is a brow "shaving" prodecure and I didn't want any confusion (though it looks like I caused it by even mentioning it.) 

From my understanding one component of FFS (if its needed) is shaving down and contouring your actual brow bone.  Generally men's brows are stronger and protrude more than a females, then you also have the hairline differences.  I really had never thought about the differences between a male/female brow but once I saw photos of someone who had their brow shaped/shaved in a FFS it was AMAZING the difference it made.  Granted this person had a strong masculine brow (mores than most guys even) but the difference it made in them appearing female was massive.  It wasn't even obvious what had been done until it was pointed out - I think the brow and jaw shapes are almost subconscious cues to gender typing.  I had never thought about a man's brow being very different from a GG.  (And some aren't) But these adjustments to the brow and jaw made this transwoman look like an almost new person - such a difference it made.  But the strange thing was before I read what surgeries had been done, I don't think I could really pinpoint what the exact changes were.  I guess it just all adds up to that softening and curvature of faces that we subconsciously associate with "female."  When you see genetic men with long beautiful hair that still look super masculine, it usually because they have a strong brow and jaw. 

TO JADE:  Thank you for explaining.  I hope the effects of the lyme disease end up being a blessing in disguise and lead to you leading the life that make's you the happiest and most fulfilled - whatever that may be.  Sometimes a tragedy or misfortune ends up being the watershed event that makes us take life by the horns.  (I know two transwomen and both came out of the closet and realized they were really women only after a great and deep loss in their personal life. Almost as if the loss brought home the point that you have one life and time must not be wasted on holding up a facade or living a lie for the sake of others.) 

[Ataraxia]

I'm sure brow shaping here usually just refers to eyebrows, but just to be safe I decided to clarify because in FFS there is a brow "shaving" prodecure and I didn't want any confusion (though it looks like I caused it by even mentioning it.) 

From my understanding one component of FFS (if its needed) is shaving down and contouring your actual brow bone.  Generally men's brows are stronger and protrude more than a females, then you also have the hairline differences.  I really had never thought about the differences between a male/female brow but once I saw photos of someone who had their brow shaped/shaved in a FFS it was AMAZING the difference it made.  Granted this person had a strong masculine brow (mores than most guys even) but the difference it made in them appearing female was massive.  It wasn't even obvious what had been done until it was pointed out - I think the brow and jaw shapes are almost subconscious cues to gender typing.  I had never thought about a man's brow being very different from a GG.  (And some aren't) But these adjustments to the brow and jaw made this transwoman look like an almost new person - such a difference it made.  But the strange thing was before I read what surgeries had been done, I don't think I could really pinpoint what the exact changes were.  I guess it just all adds up to that softening and curvature of faces that we subconsciously associate with "female."  When you see genetic men with long beautiful hair that still look super masculine, it usually because they have a strong brow and jaw. 

TO JADE:  Thank you for explaining.  I hope the effects of the lyme disease end up being a blessing in disguise and lead to you leading the life that make's you the happiest and most fulfilled - whatever that may be.  Sometimes a tragedy or misfortune ends up being the watershed event that makes us take life by the horns.  (I know two transwomen and both came out of the closet and realized they were really women only after a great and deep loss in their personal life. Almost as if the loss brought home the point that you have one life and time must not be wasted on holding up a facade or living a lie for the sake of others.)

Oh ok, and yea I agree that shaving down the bone underneath the brows makes a huge difference. Really brings out people's eyes and takes away that somewhat "angry" looking neutral face that guys have that women don't. I'm not so sure the jaw thing is that black and white though...there's a lot of women with really large jaws that are considered really beautiful (Angelina Jolie is the first example that springs to mind, but there's some more examples here http://www.womenlargejaw.com/square-jaw-theory). Interesting stuff

[MirnaMinkoff]

Oh ok, and yea I agree that shaving down the bone underneath the brows makes a huge difference. Really brings out people's eyes and takes away that somewhat "angry" looking neutral face that guys have that women don't. I'm not so sure the jaw thing is that black and white though...there's a lot of women with really large jaws that are considered really beautiful (Angelina Jolie is the first example that springs to mind, but there's some more examples here http://www.womenlargejaw.com/square-jaw-theory). Interesting stuff

It's not black and white, is anything ever lol? But the link you provided shows women with strong jaw lines - not "masculine jaw" lines - and there is a big difference imho. I guess the masculine jaw line is very square (and that includes the chin) whereas a strong jaw line on a woman (usually) is softer, more refined, probably has a lot to do with fat distribution on the face too. Angelina Jolie is a prime example, her face is super femme.  Her jaw line, combined with the perfect high cheekbones and delicate chin, make for a beautiful very feminine face.  It helps too that she appears fine boned.  Strong jaws can be very beautiful on a woman, esp because they usually come with high cheekbones.  (An example of a strong jaw/chin that isn't as flattering is Bruce Willis and Demi's daughter Rummer Willis.  She got plastic surgery last year or so to reduce her jaw/chin and it really changed the way she looked.  I guess the media thinks its an improvement since she's now getting modeling gigs. But even her jaw line wasn't "masculine" per se, probably due to her chin.  She had a (very large) heart shaped face.) 

The type of "masculine jawline" I was referring to looks like this:
That guy, and a celebrity example like George Clooney or Arnold Swarztnegg-howthehelldoyouspellit, are the type of "square masculine" jaw I refer too. That type of strong, square jaw is a feature I think of as almost hyper masculine.  (Most guys do not have such a strong, definitive jaw line as these guys.)

[sqrkbkwmqko]

Speaking of jaws, what do you think of

[amber roskamp]

Speaking of jaws, what do you think of

I think your jaw is very femme

[MirnaMinkoff]

I think your jaw is very femme

Agreed, and amazing lips too!

[BreezyB]

It's been a while since I've posted here, but I must say everyone's looking fabulous. Slowly things are progressing I think.





Bree xxx

[stephaniec]

yes, progressing

[amber roskamp]

It's been a while since I've posted here, but I must say everyone's looking fabulous. Slowly things are progressing I think.





Bree xxx

You look great! The one critique I have is that I think that bangs like in your avatar look absolutely fabulous

[Iliana.Found]

You have a terrific smile

Awww thank you!

[Iliana.Found]

I think you could make a gorgeous woman, but at the moment your actual brow (not just eyebrows) and jawline are quite masculine and that would be the issues that would make it difficult to pass as you are now atm.  From what I understand HRT could greatly soften and change both those features, but esp the chin/jaw line.  Bangs would hide your brow but the jaw is the only thing I see as definite masculine trait on your face that could make passing difficult, but HRT could change that so FFS may not be needed.  (Beside the facial hair, which as you said can be taken care of) 

I actually started really looking at what makes a face fem/masculine a few months ago when I read about FFS because it surprised me the two main issues FFS can tackle are brow shaving and jaw softening - and what a difference it made.  I had never really given much thought what made a face look manly or womanly, but it ended up being subtle things.  They are traits I don't think we are even consciously aware of, until they are pointed out.  (Now what makes a face beautiful I had considered, and that's almost always (whether male or female) is symmetry and balance.)

First off, what a wonderful thing to say "I think you could make a gorgeous woman". I always thought about the jaw/chin also and then realized that there are women who have "masculine" chin/jaw as well that are otherwise unmistakably female. Not saying that I fall into that category. Just gave me something to think about as to whether FFS would be needed for those parts. However, as you have said, HRT may fix that anyways. I very much appreciate your response