Why does being "thin" help to pass as Female?

[Brooke]

I'm curious to get opinions on this.

My two theories are

A: The social construct of the female gender is to be small/petite and/or to take up as little space as possible (crossed legs, good posture etc)

B: Male and Female fat distribution are completely different and if you have any extra fat or even muscle for that matter, the spare tire around the waist and the bulging muscles don't fit the mental model of a female at any weight. I.e. It is just plain easier to hide body shape if you don't have excess fat/muscle.

Any thoughts or theories?
Brooke

[Sophia Sage]

B, certainly, and somewhat A... but with the caveat of:

C: The natural distribution of size among men and women -- it isn't just socially constructed, women are on average significantly smaller than men, in terms of height, width, and weight. There's a biological reason why A is socially constructed the way it is.  And I do believe this "construction" happens automatically and subconsciously.

[AngieT]

Quite to the contrary, I don't think that being "thin" is that essential for passing. 

I was fairly muscular when I began transitioned, and as time progressed I lost quite a bit of weight. While I did pass without issues, I think that it had less to do with weight and more to do with self confidence and learning to live comfortably in my own skin. 

In the past five years I've actually gained a bit of weight, but despite it, I pass better than I ever did before.  Can such be attributed to weight?  Possibly, but long term HRT is probably a much bigger factor than weight ever was.  Further, as a byproduct of gaining weight, fat deposits have been stored differently, and has given me more feminine curves which helps more than it hurts. 

[Dani]

Very attractive women are ideal body weight. Neither very thin or thick.
However, the fashion industry does seem to favor very thin women.

[Annarko]

Personally, I hope to be thick and curvy one day Which I believe is the most beautiful, the fashion industry is crazy to think malnourished is sexy. Even naturally thin people don't look sickly thin like some models. Just my 2 cents.

[Brooke]

Quite to the contrary, I don't think that being "thin" is that essential for passing. 

I was fairly muscular when I began transitioned, and as time progressed I lost quite a bit of weight. While I did pass without issues, I think that it had less to do with weight and more to do with self confidence and learning to live comfortably in my own skin. 

In the past five years I've actually gained a bit of weight, but despite it, I pass better than I ever did before.  Can such be attributed to weight?  Possibly, but long term HRT is probably a much bigger factor than weight ever was.  Further, as a byproduct of gaining weight, fat deposits have been stored differently, and has given me more feminine curves which helps more than it hurts.

Very good perspective. Thanks.

I can definitely agree with the confidence aspect, I've seen that in my own experience.

I do think, at least in my case is that the decrease in body weight helped tons (no pun intended) in how the cut of women's clothing fit my body.

In regards to fat redistribution, I haven't seen much of any. Though I'm guessing it's because I have been in a constant state of weight loss since beginning HRT (mostly intentional). I lost around 100 lbs in the past 18 months, 60 of that before starting HRT. My goal was to get to a bmi of 20 (21 now), hold it for several months, and slowly try to put on some weight to get that fat redistribution.

Any thoughts if this plan makes sense for the redistribution aspect?

[Annarko]

Very good perspective. Thanks.

I can definitely agree with the confidence aspect, I've seen that in my own experience.

I do think, at least in my case is that the decrease in body weight helped tons (no pun intended) in how the cut of women's clothing fit my body.

In regards to fat redistribution, I haven't seen much of any. Though I'm guessing it's because I have been in a constant state of weight loss since beginning HRT (mostly intentional). I lost around 100 lbs in the past 18 months, 60 of that before starting HRT. My goal was to get to a bmi of 20 (21 now), hold it for several months, and slowly try to put on some weight to get that fat redistribution.

Any thoughts if this plan makes sense for the redistribution aspect?

I'm certainly curious to know how that works for you also, I am about 50 lbs over my ideal weight and I heard that the male fat doesn't move much, that may be something I would consider to try for myself

[Brooke]

I'll definitely update as I see results.

In regards to fat redistribution, all the research I've read basically says that fat does Not redistribute in cases of cross-sex hormones. Rather the fat is lost in one area and regained in a new area. It is typically the minor shifts in weight up and down a few lbs that leads to the "fat redistribution "

My hope is that as I will end up having minimal body fat that I can "hack" the timeline of 2 years, which is quoted using the typical steady weight and just slight fluctuations.

One bummer thing is it appears being in a constant state of weight loss has limited breast development. I've gotten feedback from others that lost weight while in the first two years of HRT and they've said it paused the breast growth during periods of weight loss, though the final outcome was not necessarily stunted.


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[Annarko]

One bummer thing is it appears being in a constant state of weight loss has limited breast development. I've gotten feedback from others that lost weight while in the first two years of HRT and they've said it paused the breast growth during periods of weight loss, though the final outcome was not necessarily stunted.

So, what you're telling me is that I could lose my breasts as they are now and not get them back? I really don't know that much about hormones Mine are simply a symptom of 20 years of obesity currently, but I wish they were bigger.

[Brooke]

So, what you're telling me is that I could lose my breasts as they are now and not get them back? I really don't know that much about hormones Mine are simply a symptom of 20 years of obesity currently, but I wish they were bigger.

No. Any breast growth that has already occurred will stay. (In my case I had a solid A cup that developed in my teens due to hormone imbalances).

Basically what I'm seeing and others is any progress that your currently seeing may be slowed or put on hold during periods of weight loss. When your weight stabilizes the breast growth ramps back up. This also only applies to consistent weight loss (1 or more pounds per week for over a month).

Remember that breasts are more or less made of fat. When you're in a constant state of weight loss your body isn't creating new fat deposits. Much like my issues with fat redistribution; it hasn't happened yet due to still losing weight.

Even in Cis women it is not uncommon for breast sizes to change significantly with weight loss or gains. The fat had to be taken/put back from somewhere.

If for instance you end up in a consistent weight loss state for several months count on any breast development to slow or be put on hold for that time. This should not modify the final outcome, though may extend the timeframe to completion by however long you were losing weight for.

Don't freak out if when you start losing weight your breasts appear to shrink. That's normal and expected for anyone with fat in the breasts, male or female.

I myself was a little concerned as my bras weren't fitting as snugly. But then I measured band sizes and has gone a band size. The minimal fat lost in my breasts was offset by much more coming off my midsection. In fact now it looks like I have larger breasts than I did due to the proportion changes in hips and waist- along with being able to get away with tighter fitting cuts that before weight loss accentuated my spare tire rather than breasts. Made the male gut a pretty dead giveaway that I was not cis. (My belly fat has always been the first to go on and last to come off, where any remaining fat is now). No fat is being taken from my breasts at this point.  Went from a 36 B to a 34 B and holding for past several months. I would expect that once I put some weight back on it will also help fill in the breasts, hips, and butt for those curves we all want so dearly.

Hopefully that makes sense and wasn't too convoluted.

If you have any more questions or need further clarification let me know!

Hugs!
Brooke

[Annarko]

No. Any breast growth that has already occurred will stay. (In my case I had a solid A cup that developed in my teens due to hormone imbalances).

Basically what I'm seeing and others is any progress that your currently seeing may be slowed or put on hold during periods of weight loss. When your weight stabilizes the breast growth ramps back up. This also only applies to consistent weight loss (1 or more pounds per week for over a month).

Remember that breasts are more or less made of fat. When you're in a constant state of weight loss your body isn't creating new fat deposits. Much like my issues with fat redistribution; it hasn't happened yet due to still losing weight.

Even in Cis women it is not uncommon for breast sizes to change significantly with weight loss or gains. The fat had to be taken/put back from somewhere.

If for instance you end up in a consistent weight loss state for several months count on any breast development to slow or be put on hold for that time. This should not modify the final outcome, though may extend the timeframe to completion by however long you were losing weight for.

Don't freak out if when you start losing weight your breasts appear to shrink. That's normal and expected for anyone with fat in the breasts, male or female.

I myself was a little concerned as my bras weren't fitting as snugly. But then I measured band sizes and has gone a band size. The minimal fat lost in my breasts was offset by much more coming off my midsection. In fact now it looks like I have larger breasts than I did due to the proportion changes in hips and waist- along with being able to get away with tighter fitting cuts that before weight loss accentuated my spare tire rather than breasts. Made the male gut a pretty dead giveaway that I was not cis. (My belly fat has always been the first to go on and last to come off, where any remaining fat is now). No fat is being taken from my breasts at this point.  Went from a 36 B to a 34 B and holding for past several months. I would expect that once I put some weight back on it will also help fill in the breasts, hips, and butt for those curves we all want so dearly.

Hopefully that makes sense and wasn't too convoluted.

If you have any more questions or need further clarification let me know!

Hugs!
Brooke

No, that explains a lot. Thank you so much!

[AngieT]

What I was referring to was a difference in fat storage, not necessarily redistribution. 

My theory:  Fat was originally stored in stereotypically male fat storage areas.  As I lost weight the amount of fat was reduced and I grew much more  lean.  After years of HRT, when I gain weight now, it's stored in stereotypically female fat storage areas, creating the curves I described. 

It's not fat moving, it's fat being removed then new fat being stored differently. 

As far as breast growth, I did lose most of the boob I gained from HRT.  In losing weight my body became leaner, and the fat reduction was taken from all areas, including from the breasts.  How much this will impact you will vary on a dozen different factors, but while I originally hoped I had enough to live without augmentation, such optimism was (unfortunately) largely misplaced.  FWIW, when I speak of weight loss, I initially lost ~125 lbs, of which I've gained~50 lbs back.  When dealing with that amount of loss and gain, some changes are inevitable. 

[Jenna Marie]

I actually found the reverse: carrying some extra weight helped a lot, especially early on. Women are perceived as "softer," and some additional padding helped to hide the more masculine features of my face and body (big shoulders, for example, looked like partly fat, and some fat on my hips and thighs masked the narrowness of my pelvis ). Later on, it was also easier for me to gain weight in female areas. I do still have a belly, and I hate that, but my figure overall looks a lot like my sister and grandmother (they both tend[ed] toward gaining some weight in the tummy, too).

It probably does help that I was not overly tall, and I lost another 1-2" from HRT.

[Dena]

For me thin was a benefit. At a hight of 6'2" carrying extra weight make me look massive where as thin reduces the bulky look. I have the additional disadvantage that the weight is in the belly area which tends to be more masculine. My BMI is 20-21 which gives me some mass to redistribute as the hormones take effect. Already without weigh gain but actually a weight loss I have seen redistribution to the legs, breast and face from the waist/belly area. My body has responded to estradiol far better than it ever respond to Premarin.

[Queen Of Transwomen]

I pass very well and I am about 400 pounds. I also have an apple shape and carry alot of weight in my belly. My hair is short. I don't wear make up. But I do wear stereotypical clothes and earrings. I have a MTF friend who is very thin and the poor thing often get called sir and mister. I don't know why she gets that and I am not suggesting because she is thin I just know it happens to her and it bothers her. I know alot of cis women who have an apple shape. It happens. I was and am obsessed with passing and I never considered my weight would make it harder. I thought that having boobs and a vagina was enough for my body to pass what I was worried about was my face and my voice. I do not know if that will be helpful. 

[Brooke]

This thread is making me think "thin" can help to pass, but is not the secret ingredient. Other stuff like confidence, voice, and face seem to be players as well. I do definitely wonder how the mastering of female body language affects the "passing"

This    "Why are women expected to sit "like a lady?" video from "Stuff Mom Never Told You" is part of what prompted this question, the other half are reports and suggestions I often see when reading through general trans stuff.

Lots of good food for thought in this thread- thanks for all the replies!

Hugs,
Brooke

[V M]

Not sure that being thin actually helps anyone to pass as a female

I'm rather tall and happen to also be rather thin but that's because I have a high rate metabolism and I tend to not eat much

I go to the local grocery and see women of all ages, shapes and sizes

Many are a bit heavy set and often seem to blame it on bearing children, (must be great for their children's psyches, yeah)

Anyway, I think it's all about presentation and natural mannerisms

[RobynD]

I think you hit the subject accurately. Its about personal space and the relative size of the average man when compared to the average woman.

Also up until very recently women's fashion models were always very thin and fashion effects peoples perceptions of gender.

Having said that though, i was in social gathering yesterday where three out of five women were heavy and all those women in my opinion presented quite feminine, so body language and what you choose to wear means a lot. Those that are larger should not despair, feminine can be presented by anyone.

[Sophia Sage]

i was in social gathering yesterday where three out of five women were heavy and all those women in my opinion presented quite feminine, so body language and what you choose to wear means a lot.

How tall were they?

[jentay1367]

I would imagine if you're fine boned, being thin could  be an asset.  But if you have the remnants of a heavy t poisoned bone structure, being skinny probably will do you no favors.