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NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

Started by Hazumu, November 21, 2007, 10:38:13 PM

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Valentina

Nobody's got to ask anything from anybody.  Live and let live and this applies to peeps who think men should be allowed in the lady's toilets.  Learn to respect other peep's opinions even if you dont agree with them.  That's the meaning of "live and let live" I'm entitled to my own opinions and you are to yours.  I dont want men using the same toilet as I do either.  If you feel otherwise, good but I dont. Pure and simple
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Emmalene

I recently thought of something. A passable transsexual will bring a lot more unwanted attention to themselves if they use the restroom of their birth sex. I have a friend who is a post op transman with facial hair and a low manly voice. If he were forced to go into the women's restroom simply because he were born a girl, he would probably get security called on him.

That being said, nobody has really brought up that point. Instead they are saying things like "I deserve to have a place in the public sphere where "men" are not allowed because I was abused by men and men are oppressive and horrible". These people are full of hatred and bigotry and need to deal with their problems rather than forcing society to cope with their hatred for them. Mellisa was right to compare these people to white supremacists. She's not calling them bigots just because they don't agree with her. I can be annoyed by men hanging around too, especially if they are showboating. But that is another issue. If bigots want the public to give bigots their special space, we can always build an enclosure and put them all in there and keep them inside. There, they now have their "own space".

Forget the 400 genders thing, I found out about that because I was researching therapists who specialize in transgender issues and came across a doctor who believes that. I brought that up just to point out that the "two genders only" thing is not a view shared by everybody. What the rest of society believes about only two genders is irrelevant because most of them probably would not even consider transgendered people to be anything other than the sex they were born with.
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melissa90299

I knew it was time for me to start using the ladies room when I could see that men were extremely uncomfortable with my presence. This was like a month into transition and not yet "diagnosed." Although I got a few looks and comments from women, I generally found more acceptance there than in the men's room and that was in Florida. It was in a ladies room, very early in my transition, where I was first told I was pretty by a stranger.
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Kate

Quote from: Emmalene on November 24, 2007, 03:52:30 PM
Instead they are saying things like "I deserve to have a place in the public sphere where "men" are not allowed because I was abused by men and men are oppressive and horrible". These people are full of hatred and bigotry and need to deal with their problems rather than forcing society to cope with their hatred for them. Mellisa was right to compare these people to white supremacists. She's not calling them bigots just because they don't agree with her. I can be annoyed by men hanging around too, especially if they are showboating. But that is another issue. If bigots want the public to give bigots their special space, we can always build an enclosure and put them all in there and keep them inside. There, they now have their "own space"

So now women have been stripped of their rights, their dignity, and reduced to worthless "bigots" for simply wanting a safe space of their own? We're about one step away from saying it'd be fine now for men to walk in and rape the first woman he sees, since hey... HE has no problems with it, she has no rights to her safe space, and she'd be a man-hating, hate-filled bigot for rejecting him.

~Kate~
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melissa90299

Safe space? There are millions of people who think YOUR presence in the ladies room is creating an unsafe space. Please cite documentation of a gender variant person causing anyone harm in a ladies room.
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Keira


There are plenty of unisex restrooms existing, at least in Montreal, Its not like the unpassable or the in between genders have to hold it in forever. Of course, you have to know where they are since not all malls or restaurants have them, but there are plenty. In 3 coffee shops within one block, all have unisex restrooms.

Again, the use of bigot and white supremacists!!!
This is really rilling me up. This is a proper abuse
of language and ad-hominem attack. Are all women
self-loathing bigots except you?


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Nero

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 08:29:22 PM
Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Steph

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. I understand women's fear. I too am not comfortable at all with the thought of a 'man' sharing the same restroom with my mother or sisters.
I agree with Kate -  only those diagnosed as transsexual AND undergoing hormone therapy should ever be permitted in women's space.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Rachael

yes, i dont agree 'self identification' is suitable, its too open to abuse... weather its 'fair' or not...
R :police:
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melissa90299

Quote from: Keira on November 24, 2007, 07:05:51 PM

There are plenty of unisex restrooms existing, at least in Montreal, Its not like the unpassable or the in between genders have to hold it in forever. Of course, you have to know where they are since not all malls or restaurants have them, but there are plenty. In 3 coffee shops within one block, all have unisex restrooms.

Again, the use of bigot and white supremacists!!!
This is really rilling me up. This is a proper abuse
of language and ad-hominem attack. Are all women
self-loathing bigots except you?



Most women I know are at least as progressive as I am and wouldn't wilt into a flower when confronted with a qender queer in the rest room. Again, I would like to see data on the instances of gender variant people assaulting women in the rest room.
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katia

well, since i'm a bigot, an elitist, old-fashioned and not as "progressive" as you are ::) i dont want any men in my bathroom.  only diagnosed ts's (and on hormones, thanks nero ;)) should be allowed.  period.
written by a non-progressive woman- :laugh: ha ha ha ha
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Rachael

Same for me... there has to be SOME standard... if your not to that level yet? oh well, when you get there....
without some sort of garuntee, things can be abused, and i like my safe space
[/biggoted nastyness and not being fair to everyoneness]
R :police:
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Butterfly

Quote from: Katia on November 24, 2007, 10:36:24 PM
i dont want any men in my bathroom.  only diagnosed ts's (and on hormones, thanks nero ;)) should be allowed.  period.
written by a non-progressive woman- :laugh: ha ha ha ha


Neither do I.  I don't want them sharing my space either.  A man should go to the man's toilets or under a tree but he has no business in the ladies toilets.
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Emmalene

Quote from: Katia on November 24, 2007, 10:36:24 PM
well, since i'm a bigot, an elitist, old-fashioned and not as "progressive" as you are ::) i dont want any men in my bathroom. 


There's nothing wrong with that. Your bathroom in the privacy of your own house is your bathroom and nobody else's. You have every right to exclude who ever you want from your bathroom and even your home. But the public world outside your private property, what everyone pays taxes to maintain, well that is not exclusively yours. No amount of bragging about being "a bigot, an elitist, old fashioned" will change the fact that you are sharing the rest of the world with...well...the rest of the world.
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Butterfly

Sorry but I disagree.  I also call women's toilets "mine" because I'm a woman.  It doesn't matter if that toilet is in my flat, down the street or in another country.  It is still mine because it has a sign on it that reads 'WOMEN" and I'm one of those women and as such I have the right to protest and deny entry to any man who doesnt belong there.
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Emmalene

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

Many women I've known were sexually abused by other women. How do segregated restrooms help that? Maybe it is mostly men who sexually abuse women but I'm sure it is mostly men who physically assault transgendered people, diagnosed as female or not, when they see a transgendered female walk into their restroom.
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Keira

#75
There are community standards and
that's how the "rest of the world" works.
Public doesn't mean, do as you please
with no restriction and all restrooms
that I know of are on private property
anyway, which has its own set of limitations.
Do you really think a mall is a public space!
Well, got news for you, it is not.

Its the "home" of whatever corporation owns
the space and they will institute rules to please
the people they hope to get into that space.
The courts have many a time supported that
assertion so its not some blue sky bull I'm
spouting.


Do you really think people when they go
into restrooms have in their minds the
crime rate for gender variants, on what planet
do you live? Where talking about the real world
here not utopia. Even if I wanted to believe
that most women would be open to gender
variants in restrooms I'd bet that any
question on the subject in the
general population would not get you
the answer you think you'd have
(even in those that vote for the democrats).

If you want to change this, political activism,
long term education and possibly court cases
is the way to go. Being in your face about it and
deploring people don't agree with your
point of view will only put the public
in a hardened defensive position which
will set back your cause for quite a while.


Also, are restrooms only for the progressive fringe,
are all other people dammed by their upbringing to
go behind the building, or into a bush...

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Nero

Quote from: Emmalene on November 25, 2007, 05:23:28 AM
Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

Many women I've known were sexually abused by other women. How do segregated restrooms help that?

They don't. Yes, there are female abusers, but men are a zillion times more likely to commit sex crimes. (I'm surprised this even has to be pointed out)
No law can protect you from anything under the sun that could possibly happen, but women have a right to pee without worry of peeping toms and rapists posing as women lurking in the stall next to them.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Shana A

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM
I agree with Kate -  only those diagnosed as transsexual AND undergoing hormone therapy should ever be permitted in women's space.

When I transitioned, my therapist required one year full time rlt before I could even qualify for hrt. By these above standards I guess I was using the bathroom illegally all that time.

What about non-op, non-hrt mtfs? What about transgenderists? Full time crossdressers? Do they have to use the mens room? Who is going to protect our sisters who get beat up or killed in the mens room?

y2g
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Kate

I just want to clarify what I've said in this thread, then I'm taking my toys and heading home.

Looking at the thread title, the issue here is WOMENS rooms (locker and restrooms); i.e., rooms with the sign WOMEN on the door. The owner of the building put that sign there because he intended it for use by WOMEN only, regardless of what our *personal* opinions are on the validity of segregating by sex may be.

The question here is "how do we expand the legal definition of WOMEN to include more than just genetic females?" The law prompting this thread is NOT about abolishing the men/women system altogether, it's about expanding the interpretation of men and women. If some of you want to lobby the business owners to have only UNISEX bathrooms, that's fine... but until then, we're discussing rooms marked and intended for WOMEN ONLY.

Some people are going off on *personal* tangents about how the entire men/women system is bigoted and should be abolished, implying that since THEY don't agree with it, they also don't have to respect it. Others are insisting that since THEY don't mind sharing facilities with men, no one else should mind either, and again... that they and no one else has to respect the WOMENS sign. And frankly, it's those people and that "I'm right and the hell with everyone else's feelings" attitude that scares me FAR more than sharing a stall with the most sex-obsessed fetishistic crossdresser. Crossdressers are harmless. It's people who don't recognize, let alone respect that it's OK for people to have different comfort levels than themselves that scare the heck out of me.

So when I say, "only transitioning transsexuals should be allowed in women's rooms," I'm thinking from a *legal*, not personal perspective. I've come to learn that many people can't even grasp the concept of separating the two, but I want to be on record for saying it at least. I'm trying to come up with an official law that expands the definition to include non-GGs while still respecting the expectations of anyone walking into a room marked WOMEN ONLY. And those expectations are that only other women will be in that room.

And it's not prompted from a paranoid fear that all men (including crossdressers) are evil rapists, but simply because many women would rather not share a room with men where they're doing rather intimate and private things, whether behind stall doors or not. Personally, I'd rather not get undressed in the same room as a man I don't know, even if he promises to not look or stands behind a partition. It's not that he's sick or scary, it's just that... I dunno... I'd feel vulnerable? Exposed? Maybe some people can't understand that feeling for whatever reason, but it's how I and many other women DO feel, and why many of us want a room to ourselves.

Still, that's my *personal* opinion, and I realize that if I walk into a room marked UNISEX, I'll just have to deal with my discomfort. But as long as that sign says WOMEN, I shouldn't have to worry about it. I realize that puts crossdressers in a bind, and again I *personally* don't think crossdressers are "dangerous" or more prone to assault women than anyone else. But they're STILL men in identity, regardless of their appearance, and thus it's difficult to argue that they should *legally* be allowed access to rooms marked WOMEN ONLY.

~Kate~
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Kaeren

#79
There should be 3 rooms !




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