NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Steph]

A great cartoon Tink...

I've seen it too many times -- especially when I was on active duty in the military.

Rather than defining the common enemy, banding together, and motivating all the team members towards the goal, groups would devolve into in-fighting, searching for and ejecting those team members that had perceived weakness or otherwise didn't measure up to some dumb-ass ideal.

A waste of resources -- time being one of them.

We transgender are under attack from fundamentalists in politics, in religion, and even in the gay and the lesbian communities.  And yet some of us squander what little resources we have singing the ->-bleeped-<--er Than Thou song at the drop of a hat.

We're gonna get kicked again in the ENDA.  I see that one coming unless we as a community can drop the BS and get our [stuff] together.

Karen

With all due respect...  I don't see where anyone is singing the ->-bleeped-<--er Than Thou song and I also don't agree that members debating the issues in this forum is "BS" just because they don't agree with the issue raised in the topic.

Members here have stated their support for the topic under debate, and others have not, and I feel that the insinuation that the beliefs of those that do not support the topic are presenting BS is not warranted.

Personally I am a woman and I feel no inclination to afford CD's or TV's access to opposite gender wash/change rooms just because they like to wear the opposite genders clothing.  I feel that I debated the issue in the forum fairly, albeit with exuberance at times,  but I don't feel it was BS.

Steph

[Rachael]

at my university's gay night. a TV tried to follow me into the ladies room... i turned around and asked him if he was a man or a woman. his answer? 'man' so i pointed down the corridor.... frock or not. hes a GUY. i dont care if hes 'playing girl' at the time. Kids playing airplane dont get to use real boeings....
R

[Emmalene]

im all for neutral bathrooms too, but NOT just unisex loos... i like my quiet private space away from men... 'self identify' is too open, and yes, women do comit sex crimes, but as nero said, men are much more likely. and the womens room isnt just a loo, its a refuge from males!

Would you like your own drinking fountain while you're at it?

[Rachael]

Would it have special ladies only scented water?
nope, dont mind sharing where i take water in with men. just not where i let it out thanks!
R

[Steph]

Hello everyone.

I just want to ensure that this issue stays on topic and remains focused on a very important civil rights matter.  It is obvious that there has been hot debate and I hope it continues that way in a positive manner.

Do not resort to snide remarks.

Steph

[Rachael]

id like some CDs, or TVs or for this matter, androgyne people, to come here, and tell me thier women, and i will concede my point! I dont see why this is an issue tbh. lets just leave TS out for a moment, that kettle o fish is a bit too snappy, but emelyne seems annoyed i dont want CDs in the ladysroom
CDs, are MEN... not women, if you think your a woman, take another look at your self definition...
R

[Steph]

id like some CDs, or TVs or for this matter, androgyne people, to come here, and tell me thier women, and i will concede my point! I dont see why this is an issue tbh. lets just leave TS out for a moment, that kettle o fish is a bit too snappy, but emelyne seems annoyed i dont want CDs in the ladysroom
CDs, are MEN... not women, if you think your a woman, take another look at your self definition...
R

"tbh"

No familiar with that one

Steph

[Rachael]

tbh = to be honest
im just too damn l33t for you oldfolks
R

[Gabrielle]

I can understand not wanting men in the changing rooms, I certainly don't want to undress in front of a man. When I say man, I mean someone who identifies as a man.  As a previous poster stated CD's and TV's don't identify themselves as Women.  What I don't get is this whole restroom thing.  There are doors on the stalls, I could care less who is next to me.  As long as they respect my privacy and space in my stall I don't care of they are Male or Female.

[Kate]

at my university's gay night. a TV tried to follow me into the ladies room... i turned around and asked him if he was a man or a woman. his answer? 'man' so i pointed down the corridor.... frock or not. hes a GUY.

Be careful with that though... justified or not, I don't know if you really have the authority to tell someone they can or can't use the bathroom? Might be better to report incidents which make you uncomfortable instead?

~Kate~

[Keira]

Even if there are doors on the stalls, restrooms are a very lonely place sometimes and if someone wants to assault you a flimsy door is of no help.

[Rachael]

something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Kate:i was the event organiser.... i can, but again, even if i wasnt, id tell him to leave. men dont belong in the ladies room, heels or not.
R

[Enigma]

After al this debate I'm still unclear on "woman only" safe space, not that I don't understand the concept, but I get the feeling we as a culture (the non-cisgendered culture) are far more self segregating then the cisgendered world.  We seem to be far more rigid about what defines us then people outside the community.  I'm reminded of a black journalist that chose to attend a predominately white university vs a historically black one, her logic being that the real world wasn't full of just black people and to be a part of society she needed to learn how to function in society.  There are countless other examples along the same lines.

I just don't think men are such horrible creatures we need "safe space" from them.

The world is imperfect, when we set about to segregate ourselves intentionally, we don't make it any better.  The very idea of a "safe space" is a social construct that only furthers a victim mentality.

[Rachael]

the safe space from men isnt a trans attutide you will find... its one i share with all my cisgender peers at university. They tried to make bathrooms unisex... and women revolted... its our private space... you dont want men tramping around when your in the loo cramping and feeling vulnerable... a safe place to cry with friends when you get dumped or someone hurts you. a place to repair the warpaint.... chat in clubs as its quieter... photo oportunities... the jokey feminism and manbashing that takes place oh and the loo....
its ours,
its mine
you wont take it from us!

for the record, my take of 'woman' stands as such.
anyone born female, or transitioning to, or transitioned, Identifying as female.
same with lockerrooms.

yes women do commit violence against other women, but thats beside the point, women are women. and ENTITLED to the womensroom.
plus the instance of female on female sexual assaults are next to non existant when compared to male on female sexual assaults....
males are more prone to sexual behaviour of that nature crime figures show.
end of the day, my point is this.
if your a man, or neither, find somwhere else... females would be more comfortable with ts women i feel if such a clear distinction was made... instead of 'is it a cd or a ts?' is it a man or woman?
R

[Nero]

something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

[Rachael]

this topic is a bit like the 'which is the cleaner loo' topic... it helps if youve USED the ladies  when you go talking about them...
R

[Kate]

this topic is a bit like the 'which is the cleaner loo' topic... it helps if youve USED the ladies  when you go talking about them...
R

And I must admit I've only used public Women's Rooms a few times. You know why? Because I still have the male parts and I don't feel entirely justified being in there, knowing how other women would/might feel if they knew that about me. "Getting away with it" via passing doesn't change anything, and in fact almost makes me feel deceptive and worse about it.

But that's just me...

~Kate~

[Rachael]

i dont even think about the parts. im a girl, im no different to them. its a toilet... its not a specific attachment for female genetals that senses if you put a penis in...
anyway, my genetals dont even resemble anything male anymore.... my consience is clean, for once, im NOT deciving anyone. i was by using the mens room. now im free, and telling the TRUTH.
R

[melissa90299]

something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

I am as much socialized as a woman as any woman who has posted on this thread. I would have hoped that this thread would not turn into one of those mine is bigger than yours cat fights, mine being "femaleness." (Of course, the I am more female than you is such a guy thing, you know, I mean, you MUST know this, right?)

That said IMNSHO the women who have this irrational fear that some gender queer is going to assault them in the ladies room need a lot more socialization as women just don't think like that at least progressive women don't. Women don't spend our time worrying about such things. If someone does something inappropriate in a  restroom, we just deal with it, we don't spend our time cowering in fear that a man disguised as a crossdresser is going to come into the stall and rape us!

And it bears repeating California has a very liberal restroom law and the stuff that you guys imagine just does not happen IRL.

Posted on: November 26, 2007, 03:22:35 PM

The door on the sign specifies the gender, not the required body parts.




edit: sign on the door >>

The thing that disturbs me about those on the side of intolerance is that they are encouraging the type of thought that would ban pre-op transgendered women from the ladies room. As a post-op, I could make a lot of great arguments as to why pre-ops should not be allowed in MY SAFE WOMEN ONLY SPACE.

[Nero]

something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

I am as much socialized as a woman as any woman who has posted on this thread. I would have hoped that this thread would not turn into one of those mine is bigger than yours cat fights, mine being "femaleness." (Of course, the I am more female than you is such a guy thing, you know, I mean, you MUST know this, right?)

That said IMNSHO the women who have this irrational fear that some gender queer is going to assault them in the ladies room need a lot more socialization as women just don't think like that at least progressive women don't. Women don't spend our time worrying about such things. If someone does something inappropriate in a  restroom, we just deal with it, we don't spend our time cowering in fear that a man disguised as a crossdresser is going to come into the stall and rape us!

And it bears repeating California has a very liberal restroom law and the stuff that you guys imagine just does not happen IRL.

Posted on: November 26, 2007, 03:22:35 PM

The door on the sign specifies the gender, not the required body parts.




edit: sign on the door >>

The thing that disturbs me about those on the side of intolerance is that they are encouraging the type of thought that would ban pre-op transgendered women from the ladies room. As a post-op, I could make a lot of great arguments as to why pre-ops should not be allowed in MY SAFE WOMEN ONLY SPACE.

I didn't mean you when I said that. I know you're one of the most well socialized women on here.