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I Never Wanted To Be An Activist, But...

Started by steph2.0, October 24, 2017, 02:07:01 PM

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Katie Jade

Massive week for me;
1. Sawe both elder and younger brothers for a F2F.. was so really good as they want to help me (not money though) and ensue I'm not in suicie mode again, whatever
2.Yu guyse loom so well and Tommy and Critian are getting better

Post Op Sept 2023...... that took a very long time....
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Kylo

The best way to respond to this sort of thing is actually to hear them out first.

If you immediately insinuate bigotry and hate, or try to force them around to your way of thinking, you will only get them pushing back against.

Regards the issue of bathrooms, what's needed is a very careful approach because although I would normally say "education is what we need", there IS a potential for any laws allowing us to use whichever bathroom to be exploited by non-trans people, and this is often what many of these people are worried about. There have already been cases of (non trans) people either showing the problems up that can come of the law, or just exploiting it full stop. Yes, I think there are legit concerns from some of these people because if a non-trans individual can (and easily could) step into the wrong room and just say "oh I'm trans", this is as they say "problematic". They could abuse our right and just lie about it. And then there's the issue of people who do not make an effort to appear one gender or another - or the gender non conforming or non-binary - using gendered rooms making people uncomfortable. Do we not understand the problems this can cause to people who know nothing about ->-bleeped-<-? Or just how it might make people feel in general?

Of course I understand why someone who was not presenting female might upset a bunch of females being in a women's bathroom, or upset the male companions of such females if they have no idea what's going on. This is a very VERY tricky issue and it won't be solved by us just assuming they've thought as deeply about it as we have, or that they even know the delicacies of the problem, or indeed us assuming they're just hateful bigots every time they have a problem with it.

I understand why you're upset and it's not my intent to direct this at you specifically. It's more of a general warning to us all when dealing with people on the bathroom issue. I'm transsexual and even I can see how thorny a problem this is, for everyone. We're dealing with people's inbuilt biological instincts to gender, we're dealing with people afraid of law breakers or opportunists, we're sometimes dealing with actual bigotry and stupidity, and we're dealing with activists who are pushing quite forcefully at the rest of society right now, and in some cases society seems to be reacting to this push with opposite force. It's always better to hear them out and ask what it is they're afraid of first than telling them they're idiots. Use psychology. If you want people to respond well, let them know that their thoughts/feelings are just as valuable as your own. If you tell them outright they just suck, because bigotry or something like that, they will immediately shut down and probably feel like their "suspicions" about us were confirmed. I've had some good results letting others speak first, then asking them what they would do to solve such a tricky situation, then introduce my own experience, gently-like. It gets much better results than trying to be outright forceful or offended, I think.

I mean even I'm not sure what we should do about the whole bathroom thing at this point because first it was trans men/women wish to use the bathroom they identify with and now it's at that stage where some people are saying gender/appearance shouldn't matter at all it what you identify with in your mind that does, but clearly appearance does matter, and which is it? To allow anyone to walk into the female or male bathroom if their appearance or identity does not match the symbol on the door requires society to be acclimated to that idea and that won't happen overnight... yet we are expecting people to accept it in the span of a couple of years since it's come to their attention? Do we actually even want to do away with the idea of biological sex issues like some people in activist circles do, and open up all spaces to everyone? "I just want to pee" is of course my own stance, and this would be simple enough if that's all these spaces really meant, but they mean a lot more than that under the surface. I'm not surprised the non-trans are becoming confused by our demands, because many of them understand the idea of a male transitioning to female and vice versa just fine, but they do not understand the concept of gender non-comformity and how that is going to fit into a world that is split between man and woman... either the world dismantles itself to fit around this small number of the human population, or this small number of the human population is going to have to be specially catered for to avoid all this confusion, or, society is just going to have to get used to all peeing together.

All three of these are going to take time.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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steph2.0

Well, I guess this was an interesting lesson learned.

First: My reply has gotten exactly one response so far. That was a Like from someone who appears to be the daughter of one of the people who Liked the original post. In the meantime, the original has gathered 18 likes. So it appears I'm spitting into the wind, and probably outed myself to a bunch of people who didn't know yet.

Second: I was gently reminded privately that my description of the transgender condition as not being a lifestyle choice excludes those for whom it is a choice, such as crossdressers and drag queens/kings. I apologize for over-generalizing. Though my reply went to a wider audience, it was aimed specifically at the original poster, and was meant to illustrate my personal situation, which he's well aware of. While it wasn't my intention to represent the community as a whole, it's clear that I have to take more care in the future to either be more inclusive, or define clearly that I'm talking specifically about what I'm personally dealing with.

Third: Viktor, how specifically do you think I should have handled this? What did I do wrong? It seemed clear what the original poster intended, and I responded to that in the best way I knew how, not necessarily by specifically calling anyone a bigot, but by - admittedly forcefully at times - trying to make it a teachable moment.

Anyway, it's clear why I never wanted to be an activist. I'm not smart enough to cover all the angles and keep everyone happy. Realistically, some of the responses I've gotten from within the community itself have caused me more angst than the original post I responded to. I'm dealing with enough stress just getting through my transition. I'd forgotten that those who stick their neck out often get their heads chopped off. I have enough to do just changing myself - I can't change the world, too. From now on I'll leave the educating and advocating to those with thicker skin.

Steph


Assigned male at birth 1958 * Began envying sister 1963 * Knew unquestioningly that I was female 1968 * Acted the male part for 50 years * Meltdown and first therapist session May 2017 * Began HRT 6/21/17 * Out to the world 10/13/17 * Name Change 12/7/2017 (Girl Harbor Day) * FFS With FacialTeam 12/4/2018 * Facelift and Lipo Body Sculpting at Ocean Clinic 6/13-14/2019 * GCS with Marci Bowers 9/25/2019
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The Flying Lemur

Hey, Steph, activists don't keep people happy.  They make people uncomfortable, because people tend not to change unless they feel some discomfort with being the way they are now.   There is no way to demand meaningful change without making someone, somewhere, feel kinda squirmy.  As for upsetting members of the trans* community, I'm sorry you got blowback, but silence in the face of transphobia is worse than a less-than-perfect response.  If someone wants to discriminate against me, I'd rather have a bystander make an awkward defense of me than just keep their head down and say nothing. 

You're all good, sis.  I hope you don't let this shut you up or shut you down.
The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. --Joseph Campbell
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Roll

That is one of the best replies to that rhetoric I've seen! To the point and doesn't even really delve in politics, just logistics and facts. In a non-social media debate I'd tend to follow closely to what Viktor said, but I'm not sure that really works in the facebook setting. Unfortunately, the social media reality is not conducive to a real discussion.  :-\ (Why is this smiley undecided? I always associated the slanted mouth with a sort of "Ah well" resignation!)

Though I can't help but wonder... what's their stance on janitors? Because surely they realize that at some point, men-men are definitely entering the women's bathroom in the majority of establishments. We must never forget the plight of the custodial staff.
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Kylo

Quote from: Steph2.0 on October 24, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Third: Viktor, how specifically do you think I should have handled this? What did I do wrong? It seemed clear what the original poster intended, and I responded to that in the best way I knew how, not necessarily by specifically calling anyone a bigot, but by - admittedly forcefully at times - trying to make it a teachable moment.

Okay, well, you mentioned that this person was a dear friend and mentor, so you know best how to approach him personally with talk. What I would have done was ask him a question, privately (out of sight of others because that will influence his immediate responses, so by private msg or something) - without relating your own situation immediately but conversationally so he does not feel put on the spot, about one of the more tricky issues faced by trans people. Such as, you might say, "yes, I agree that in general men do not belong in the ladies room, but I just wonder how it works for those transwomen who are almost transitioned but not quite... and they can no longer really go into the men's room safely either. I wonder what they are supposed to do. What do you think?" And just see what he says. See if you can get a thought process going in him that will make him have to put himself theoretically in a transperson's shoes a moment. It only has to be a moment with some people, of genuine thought, and they realize it's not as black and white as they would like it to be. It also humanizes us if they have to think for a few seconds from our perspective.

It's possible that image was a thing being spread round among his other acquaintances and he liked and shared because someone else expected him to. People will do this, even though they may have friends ideologically opposed on FB, and if you're the one friends versus a gaggle of others, they might do it to cover their own butts. Or he might have shared rather mindlessly. I admit I've shared a few things on FB without considering the one or two friends I  might have that I know probably wouldn't like whatever it was I was sharing, or just forgot to consider it. If the rest of his family was doing it too, I think that sounds like a "keeping up appearances" sort of share tactic, or a show among themselves of reaffirming their right-wing values. In itself though, the image seems to convey that attitude (i.e. let's not change things) rather than an "I hate trans people" sort of attitude.

QuoteAnyway, it's clear why I never wanted to be an activist. I'm not smart enough to cover all the angles and keep everyone happy. Realistically, some of the responses I've gotten from within the community itself have caused me more angst than the original post I responded to. I'm dealing with enough stress just getting through my transition. I'd forgotten that those who stick their neck out often get their heads chopped off. I have enough to do just changing myself - I can't change the world, too. From now on I'll leave the educating and advocating to those with thicker skin.

Don't try to please everyone because it cannot be done. I would just caution everyone against deleting everyone off FB in anger or the natural responses we tend to have to this sort of thing and just stick it out and see what's going on in their minds. Obviously if someone makes an outright offensive and awful comment to you directly, they might not deserve keeping around. But many people out there are struggling in their own way too with trying to understand, or are torn between their values and their friends whom they know are good people even if they might be trans which they do not understand. I really do think our future as trans people - and our safety - depends on how carefully we tread this line in a sense, because the more forceful and echo chambery (isolated from other POVs) the left is becoming, the more right-wing people are becoming in response, and the danger is that we are not seeing or understanding why this is happening - but I'm fairly sure at this point it's because of how forceful our side is being. We need to share ideas and thaw the ice at this point, before things get beyond our control. But not in a way that has us approaching it as if others have absolutely no choice but to accept everything about us or else be punished in some form, whether that's being deleted of FB or prosecuted for not using pronouns etc. That will only put them in a corner and make them hate us. This is my thought, anyway. Sometimes to get what you want from people you have to do it very softly.

When I see someone share this stuff or say something like "trans are all mentally ill", I take a moment to detach myself from the conversation I'm about to have, and then I go talk to that person. Not in a lecturing way, but just in a "what's your view on that?" kind of way that gets them to unravel and justify their actual view, because that will encourage a rational process in them to look at their own view and put it into words. Even just doing that sometimes got me some great results and great conversations. Not always, of course, but some people came back and thanked me after them for helping them understand. Quite a few. (Some even said if it weren't for me, they'd still be disliking trans people because all the media does is hit them over the head with the idea they themselves are evil people for not liking or understanding something). There was another conversation I had - privately and away from louder personalities - with someone opposed to the "trans thing" as she called transition, and this person had no idea I was trans myself. By the end of it she'd said her piece and finished the thought with... "but I suppose it must be hard for them... that must be a hard life and I doubt anyone'd choose it if it wasn't a medical thing..." and there it was. She'd started to think.   
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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SadieBlake

Welcome to the fight sister!

I've been a "small a" activist on and off for all the time I've identified as trans and kinky. (The issues of the leathersex community are in some ways thornier as what it is that we do is definitely illegal in many jurisdictions).

Being an activist takes many forms, the well heeled society person who may not want to get their hands dirty and yet contributes financially is doing their part as was the drag queen so often cited for throwing the first brick at Stonewall or the trans people in the Compton's riots.

I wouldn't change a word of what you wrote .. well maybe I'd have specifically noted transexual women and exemplified from my own life as a decidedly non passing transitioned binary female :-).

Hugs hon, and I don't think you're pissing into the wind. That single digit that acknowledged your post means more than you realize. We change the world a single person at a time and that change begins with changing our selves.

I write from the privilege of working in a place with the good sense to both have a sensible policy that people should piss where they choose to and which provides a reasonable number of gender-neutral facilities. I also elect not to facebook a decision recently bolstered by learning of a sex worker whose vanilla account was identified to a number of her clients via FB and its ai algorithms.

Hugs again,

S
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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MaryT

Quote from: Viktor on October 24, 2017, 07:24:33 PM
The best way to respond to this sort of thing is actually to hear them out first.

If you immediately insinuate bigotry and hate, or try to force them around to your way of thinking, you will only get them pushing back against.

Quote from: Viktor on October 25, 2017, 12:08:46 AM
Okay, well, you mentioned that this person was a dear friend and mentor, so you know best how to approach him personally with talk. What I would have done was ask him a question, privately ...

That's all very well for a one-on-one discussion.  Steph's friend published his own opinions online.  Steph and many other people "heard him out".  For Steph to publish an online response is totally appropriate.  She was trying to reach out not only to her "friend" but to all of the people that he, and others who shout similar views online, may have influenced. 
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Deborah

I've tried the "reasoning" approach before with someone who was anti-trans and it doesn't work.  The response I get: trans are abnormal because that's just common sense and so should not be allowed anything.  And besides, God said so.  Giving medical science evidence in the form of studies is a waste of time unless they saw the study on Fox News or the Drudge Report first.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

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JennyBear

Quote from: Deborah on October 25, 2017, 09:09:52 AM
I've tried the "reasoning" approach before with someone who was anti-trans and it doesn't work.  The response I get: trans are abnormal because that's just common sense and so should not be allowed anything.  And besides, God said so.  Giving medical science evidence in the form of studies is a waste of time unless they saw the study on Fox News or the Drudge Report first.

    Agree with you with one caveat. You can get some of them to agree to hear you out before they know the topic of discussion. Some of those studies have been done by groups well regarded by the alt-right. If you ask them first if they approve of research done by those groups, (such as Stanford Medical or Johns Hopkins) and they agree. Then present them with the info. As they've already agreed that whatever comes from those groups is reputable, they'll have a much harder time dismissing the info presented. But, you have to be gentle about it, attempting to shove it in their face only puts them on the defensive, losing their logical thought to emotion. This was that tactic that finally got my own father to start to come around.

HUGS!
"Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got. I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the block."
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Kylo

Quote from: MaryT on October 25, 2017, 08:25:40 AM
That's all very well for a one-on-one discussion.  Steph's friend published his own opinions online.  Steph and many other people "heard him out".  For Steph to publish an online response is totally appropriate.  She was trying to reach out not only to her "friend" but to all of the people that he, and others who shout similar views online, may have influenced.
I didn't say it wasn't appropriate, but to respond online in full view of everyone else will of course be confrontational in the other party's eyes. If that's the goal, no problem. If the goal is to reason with him and get him to see the error of his thinking, she could have spoken to him via a private message and might have got better results. I doubt a person whose whole family are posting the same pictures and can see everything he says publicly, is going to be very responsive in full view of all. The ONLY way to get people who are signalling hard to their own group like that out of their ideological "camp" is to speak to them away from their camp.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Zumbagirl

Leave your friend behind and make new friends. That's not so hard. No point in trying to change minds, it probably isn't going to happen. Just be you and be happy and let everything fall where it will.
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Miss Clara

Viktor: I found your thoughts on this subject realistic and convincing.  Thank you for taking the time to put them down for us to ponder.  We have a tendency to lump cisgender people into one big homogeneous group, much as they tend to stereotype transgender people.  Neither view is justified, so it's best for us to resist falling into that trap.  There are many cisgender people who need but a gentle nudge to abandon their misguided views of transgender people, others need a firmer hand, and then there are those who will never see past their ideological biases.  I've noted the same range of attitude among the transgender community.  Speaking for myself, I've found that a gentle touch delivers the most bang for the buck.  I don't consider myself an activist, but I have contributed to improving the attitudes of others one person at a time.  No, I can't change the minds of those entrenched in their transphobic views, but most people are not so committed.  The best way I've found to change minds is to teach by example.  When people see trans people sharing many of the same values they espouse, understanding and acceptance replaces suspicion and fear. 
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