Using public restrooms.

[dee82]

Thank you Kim for sharing your experiences.

I am ruminating on this because I know is my next big milestone. Other than one other work related person to come out to, using toilets is my main current concern.

As much a worrier I am, I have no desire to do things halfway. Most of my old clothes are now gone. And socially I go out as 100% woman.

The only time I present as male is one day per fortnight for work reasons.

A suggestion my gender therapist made was to go with a friend the first time. It seems like a good idea to me, and I will try to arrange things that way.

This discussion tapped into my own doubts. And as you say:

I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal.  It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.

Which is why I think about it a lot.

I know I will get there, with my own courage and support of people here. Thanks again.

~Dee

[KimOct]

OK so much for sleep LOL. 

Warlockmaker - thanks for your reply. 

I disagree with some of what you said but I do agree with you on the point of winning hearts and minds.

While I believe in my position regarding bathroom rights and I think people should do so earlier in the transition process than you may now or did in the past I do think that when we do so we should keep in mind the comfort of others and respect that some may not feel comfortable.

Therefore I think it is our responsibility to act in a way that is considerate to those around us while at the same time exercising our rights.  In short - do what is right but be polite in doing so.

[KimOct]

You are welcome Dee.  You got this !!

I am a worrier too but you can do this !!

[dee82]

You are welcome Dee.  You got this !!

I am a worrier too but you can do this !!

Now, don't let us keep you up!

~Dee.

[KimOct]

  Nite Nite

[dee82]

Its more important to win their hearts and the simple act of consideration and respect gives us the chance to develop a new perspective of TGs.

Thank you for your experience and perspective, warlockmaker. I want to clarify that what I have said here is not about trans rights or activism. I just want a safe place to pee, and despite the talk of courage, the right time and confidence, my bladder sometimes has it's own ideas.

~Dee

[IAmM]

  It is not so very difficult.

Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.

Yes and no. We get to where we are by going through the crap show. Yes what you are saying is true to a point, you cannot get there in a vacuum though. You have to live it.

As someone who is publicly presenting as a woman around 90% of the time, (but have only been doing so for 2 weeks) I feel like I am at the point of no longer being able to go into the men's. It is simply is not appropriate, and I no longer feel safe doing so.

But the women's restroom scares me too. I like to think I can pass, (at the very least it is clear I am trying to look like the woman I am) but there are days when the ugly 5 o'clock shadow makes an appearance or something else affects my confidence.

To date, I have 2 strategies to cope with this.

a. Be careful with my drinking, and not need to go until I am home.

b. Seek out a disabled/unisex toilet.

Thinking I need to be considerate of others feelings I totally get, but it is also a huge burden and responsibility to worry about what other people think, when I just want to do what I need to do.

Seeking out a disabled/unisex toilet makes me sad as I furtively try to find a restroom I can feel comfortable using.

Going into the disabled toilet, I also think I am drawing attention to myself.

The thought that somehow my internal confidence is a measure of whether I am ready to use the Ladies, and until then, I don't fit anywhere doesn't seem right.

I understand where you are coming from warlockmaker, but you seem to be saying that unless I know there will be a disabled/unisex toilet, then until I have "lived as a female full time, for a long enough time" dressing androgenously and using the men's is what I need to do.

That just makes me want to cry.

I feel like I am just venting right now and there is no point being made. Other than being trans sucks.

~Dee

Yep, being trans sucks.

Going to the bathroom though, not so bad. Walk in, answer the call of nature, wash your hands( Please wash your hands ) and leave. Not joking, most women don't care, just don't make them feel uncomfortable.

My roommate before my boyfriend asked me to move in with him was so far out of my comfort zone. My younger brother's first wife and we have been friends since childhood. Yes, everyone that knows me has always know that I have no interest in women never have, but still. She once drug me into the girls bathroom long before I came out, crowded bathroom, some of the women there looked so startled. She just said he is gay and drug me into the stall with her. Quite normal sharing the bathroom with her, it was hard for me to accept at first but that time we had lived together for over a year and privacy was never one of her priorities. None of the girls seemed to care at all that there was a guy in the bathroom, for whatever reason I was instantly deemed safe. I never let her do that again. Sharing a bathroom with her was not the problem, my fear of how the other women felt was.

Tomorrow is reached by doing the work and facing the storm today. Don't look up, don't interact, do the deed and go. ( please wash your hands ) Everything else will come with time and effort but doing it comes from actually doing it.

You do fit in, you just don't know it yet.

Every effort, every step, is one step closer. Don't deny yourself something that is going to happen anyway, okay. When everyone feels uncomfortable, you and them, when you go into a men's restroom, exchange useless discomfort for what is at worst discomfort that will get you one step closer to your goal.

[barbie]

Women's restrooms tend to be cleaner than men's, and I prefer women's.  I have never seen any line in the men's, but a lot in women's. When women's restroom is crowded, I use that for handicapped people. Sometimes, aged women complain behind me that I am too tall, nevertheless wearing high heels. In men's? Even with seemingly men's dresses, it causes a too much fuss, and I do not want embarrass those innocent men any more. I remember that some of my female friends next to me chatted with me in a public restroom.


In the front of the vanity room in a hotel restroom a few weeks ago.

barbie~~

[dee82]

Going to the bathroom though, not so bad. Walk in, answer the call of nature, wash your hands( Please wash your hands ) and leave. Not joking, most women don't care, just don't make them feel uncomfortable.

...

( please wash your hands )

...

You do fit in, you just don't know it yet.

Well, I am feeling encouraged now.

That's one "out there" roommate you have/had.

Oh, the hand washing? Don't worry about that IAmM, I always wash them. Seeing men who do not is so gross, so much so, that I am one of those who always figures out how to open the door without touching it on the way out because I know many grubby unwashed hands have touched it before me.

If washing hands in the Ladies is a requirement for fitting in, I'll be right at home.

~Dee.

[warlockmaker]

We also advise tg females that if they feel insecure despite all their effort, then simply ask a cis female friend to go with you, even if you get clocked, having a cis female with you seems to give  cis females, using their facilities, comfort and also shows your consideration for their need to feel secure.

Its such a touchy topic and I it is not difficult to see both side, I dont even know if there is a right or wrong. I often urge new transitioners to forget your old male ego and use that new found empathy to do what is considerate and respectful. You will be female but give it time, there is just so much to learn and experience and to emerge as the special person, each and every one of us born to be.

[Jessica_Rose]

Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.

Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?

I want to be prepared.

~Dee.

Yes, it's true. Ladies like to talk in the bathroom, even while in the stalls doing their business! It doesn't happen all the time, but the first few times will seem weird. What are the subjects? It could be just about anything, from your fashion choices that day to your plans for the weekend. Women are much more social than men, and 'TMI' has a much higher threshold when only women are involved. A non-bathroom example happened a few months ago. Within minutes of my telling a new friend that I was transgender, she was telling me about her bladder prolapse issues! Women share much more personal information with one another than men do. It really is a fantastic club to become a member of!

Love always -- Jessica Rose

[alyssalove2790]

If I'm out and need to go to the bathroom, I always ask if there is an unisex facility nearby... I've been pointed the ladies room all the times but I just don't feel comfortable with the risk of being violated... for now. I sometime bring up that issue to other cis females especially my friends and they've offered to escort me... which I'm thankful for... but unisex restroom will always have top priority!

I live in Canada it's more LGBT friendly than down there in the US.

[Lynne]

Women's restrooms tend to be cleaner than men's, and I prefer women's.  I have never seen any line in the men's, but a lot in women's. When women's restroom is crowded, I use that for handicapped people. Sometimes, aged women complain behind me that I am too tall, nevertheless wearing high heels. In men's? Even with seemingly men's dresses, it causes a too much fuss, and I do not want embarrass those innocent men any more. I remember that some of my female friends next to me chatted with me in a public restroom.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4818/45517354534_d9c166e850_z.jpg
In the front of the vanity room in a hotel restroom a few weeks ago.

barbie~~

I get that totally. I'm in a similar situation, even if I have to present as a man(which is quite andro look these days) it is very awkward for me to go to the men's restroom as it's confusing people who don't know me. There were quite a few instances when a man entered, saw me, apologized for entering the wrong restroom and went back to check the sign

I would never enter the men's restroom while presenting as a female, it's awkward enough as it is. When I'm presenting as a female I always go to the women's restroom and it was never a problem. I tend to pass so that helps but I don't feel that I don't belong there just because I'm not yet legally female, or because I'm not on HRT, didn't have GRS or VFS.

[KathyLauren]

Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.

Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?

I want to be prepared.

~Dee.

You don't need to talk.  But unlike the men's room where eye contact is to be avoided and the proper response to any speech is a grunt, women's rooms are much more social places.  You don't have to talk, but you can, and people will.

If you happen to catch someone's eye, don't suddenly look away like a man would.  Hold the eye contact for a beat and smile.  If someone says something to you, don't grunt like a man, answer properly, like a normal conversation.  Conversation between strangers in the women's room is not common, though they might exchange a few words about the weather.  But if you go in with friends, expect them to continue whatever conversation they were having before.  Even in the stalls!  (Yeah, that took some getting used to!)

[TonyaW]

Not passing but honest effort.

Forgive me but the way I see it, if you push like that people will push back. Bull our way in and we may never find acceptance.

More bluntly, WHAT!!!??? You say it like we are a majority that can make the rules. It is very much our problem. Rights are not innate but given by a consensus of the majority. They can be given ONLY and can just as easily be taken away.

Is this the way everyone here feels? I feel like I just started to walk through waist high Jello.

Ah... good luck.

Of course we need to be considerate, as anyone should be anywhere, and people should also be to us.  The trouble is if people say we don't belong there because we are not female. That is the extent of the TERF argument and we should in no way concede to that.  The sign on the door says women, not vaginas.

I'm not doing any pushing by entering a space that I have a right to be in. I just need to pee.  Its not like I walk in and yell "I'm trans and I have a right to be here".

Its their problem if they are perceiving us to be men when we are not. It's our problem in general in trying to educate people about that.

Being perceived as a male in the female space is what scared me most about using the ladies room when I first began transitioning. Gender neutral restrooms (when I could find them) were a blessing until I gained enough confidence to use the women's. I still have some fear of that, though I'm much more confident that I belong there.  Helps that my drivers license now has the F on it.

I still have a bit of male anatomy but I am female.  If no one is doing anything they shouldn't be doing,  no one is going to see that.  I haven't done much with my voice so I try not to speak and draw attention to myself,  especially to someone that may not be able to see me.

I use the womens locker room at the gym, but only to change my shoes and hang my coat. There are curtains on the showers so I probably could use them without being seen,  but I don't. If there were doors that locked and enough room to comfortably dry off and change clothes behind them, I would use the showers.





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[Sabrina Rei]

Honestly I don't think it's only uneducated people it's the perverts that go in there that are not transgender that like to dress up as women and put cameras in the Stalls and try to rape women and all this other >-bleeped-< they're the ones that make us look bad they're the reasons why we're uncomfortable using the ladies were like we're supposed to

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?

Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears. 

Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie

[Arianna Valentine]

Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears. 

Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie

Thank you for This elle's this give me a little hope

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?

[emma-f]

Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears. 

Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie

@elle's bells I've just read this full thread and I was thinking that I was sure I'd read that somewhere.

I've just written a couple of blog entries about this (I dont know what the rules are on here as to referring to your own blog so I won't).

Here in the UK this is suddenly an issue where it wasn't even just a couple of years ago. Thanks to groups like Woman's Place UK have had some luck in being heard by the public, not least because they include a number of lawyers and professors in their ranks. The outlook among woman is not necessarily binary, with the TERFs on the one side acting with indignation, through many woman who could not properly be described as TERFs who are not anti-trans, and do consider us women, but have concerns, through to the (probably majority) group on the other side who don't care two hoots about us in the ladies.

Merely because fear of some cis-woman is misfounded does not mean that as a group we shouid march into the ladies en masse. Sometimes a legal right and the right thing to do are not alligned. Jumping in without considering at all the fears (even if misfounded) could push those cis-women to be become outright TERFs, feeling that we don't care about anyone else and only ourselves. Like or not we are in a bit of a battle for hearts and minds. By and large we're winning it.

My personal view is that if you are passible you'll have no problem. If you are not passible but there is likely to be sufficient doubt you'll have no problem as non-one really wants to challenge someone if they're not sure. To be honest I think even if you make a good effort at presenting yourself as a female you shouldn't have any problems as the vast majority of women would appreciate a respectful transwoman. Go in there looking like a bloke in a dress not really putting any effort in, and you might find more of a difficulty.

At work things are often a bit different. So as not to poke the bear I offered to use the disabled as everyone obviously knew I was trans. One by one every woman came to me and told me that they didn't care if I used the ladies. They took the view there were cubicles there.

My thoughts anyway

Em x

[Lisa89125]

The fear is what's hard to get over. The battle of dreaded House Bill 2 created a firestorm of debate over the bathrooms and a lot of hostility. I've been out with my less than excepting sister and even she said use the ladies room.

I will admit, I am afraid of the conversation issue. I don't sound feminine and would blow my cover if I happen to be passable in the eyes of the public. My own confidence and self esteem is trash and I don't feel confident in passing.

I do think we need a middle ground and more unisex bathrooms in public places. I think this would alleviate the dreaded bathroom issue for us to some degree. It's demoralizing I know. But what other choice is there?

For those who are lucky enough to transition at a very young age the issue is really a none issue. They pass and are excepted as female 100% majority of the time.  The rest of us transitioning late in life are not so lucky to have a our bodies be as feminine as those who started hormones at their natural puberty onset.

Lisa

[Arianna Valentine]

I honestly think that once we get rid of this annoying let's call it an object or perhaps and unwanted growth once it is gone I am completely sure that most of us will be able to use the ladies room without any issues and even if it's not gone once we actually grow breasts or for me I use a bra that gives the appearance of double the cup size so that gives me a little bit more confidence in my decision to use the Ladies Room although I do still find myself using the restroom before I leave the house that way I do not have to worry about the restrooms in public and honestly most of the time that kind of nasty anyways

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?