Asserting Manhood: Overcompensation?

[Sephirah]

And that innocent until proven guilty phrase applies to law, not reality.

But if you follow that reasoning then you, and all of us, have to prove we are who we believe we are, which is exactly the thing you're vehemently arguing against in your original post and all the way through the thread.

You can't have it both ways. It isn't one rule for one and one rule for everyone else.

I don't mean to be argumentative, because I do agree with a lot of what you say. But you seem to be blurring two entirely different arguments here. On the one hand you're saying that claims made by people in order to try and somehow validate their own gender identity are done simply to strengthen their own case based on their own perception and the need to try and one up everyone else.

That may be true in some cases, and probably is. But the key thing is 'in some cases'. And without the benefit of having a complete psychological profile of every single person on this site and in the outside world, you can't claim that the reason all people relate their experiences is simply to validate their existence.

But, on the other hand, when people do express their experiences, regardless of motivation, you make another argument, which is that those experiences, in themselves, are inaccurate... regardless of the people who claim to have them. And that's the thing I take issue with because it implies that everyone who has the same experiences yet chooses not to say anything about them, is also wrong. And that's a far wider issue than a few people trying to bolster their own self-image.

What about the people who believe they have also had similar experiences and undergone similar desires... yet don't decide that they need to be shouted from the rooftops? Are they deluded also, based on the cognitive processes of others who want to try and use the very same experiences as a means to an end?

That's what I think the problem is here. In my opinion, if you want to argue that a person can't physically have an experience because the experience cannot be had, then do that... but do that only. Likewise if you want to argue that people's motivations are such that they desire to express the fact that they've had these experiences simply to empower themselves, then fine, do that, but again... do only that.

You can't use one argument to justify the other argument because the motivations of an individual making a claim has absolutely no relevance to a claim's inherent validity or lack thereof.

[Elwood]

...No, I don't think anyone needs to prove they're trans, I just think that people shouldn't lie to themselves or to me by stretching the truth because somehow they think that makes them "more trans." It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

[Mister]

It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

Welcome to life, Elwood.  There are tons of things I don't want to read in this group and even more things I don't want to deal with IRL.  But y'know what?  Not everyone is going to be just like you.  Not everyone was clueless about the differences between the sexes at age 2 or 4.  Not everyone finds the blues brothers to be entertaining (they bug the crap out of me, FWIW).  Not everyone thinks theater is a worthwhile pursuit.  For trans people, enlightenment surrounding the concept of gender variance is a universal concept.  For people who do not live in caves, enlightenment surrounding government corruption, racism, etc is (generally) a universal concept.  Are you going to begrudge someone their views because they realized them sooner than you did?  Are you going to tell a well-read 12 year old to STFU because he or she is "too young" to have a global view?

[Elwood]

Um, I never said that people were clueless. My point that everyone is arguing with is that it isn't really even possible for a kid to know what a penis is at 2 years old.

It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

[Nero]

...No, I don't think anyone needs to prove they're trans, I just think that people shouldn't lie to themselves or to me by stretching the truth because somehow they think that makes them "more trans." It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

What do you think this is - a contest for the earliest desired penis? I don't see anyone here declaring '->-bleeped-<-r than thou'. I see people discussing their experiences. I do see someone charging others in a desperate attempt to prove some point. But I'm not going to play psychobabble tag with you. I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

[iFindMeHere]

What do you think this is - a contest for the earliest desired penis? I don't see anyone here declaring '->-bleeped-<-r than thou'. I see people discussing their experiences. I do see someone charging others in a desperate attempt to prove some point. But I'm not going to play psychobabble tag with you. I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

Nero is FOR THE WIN!

[Elwood]

I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

It isn't. You're wrong if you think I'm comparing myself to others.

I just hate liars, and it's a lie if someone thinks they knew they were a man since embryonic state.

[Mister]

Um, I never said that people were clueless. My point that everyone is arguing with is that it isn't really even possible for a kid to know what a penis is at 2 years old.

Most two year olds do not realize that a penis is a male reproductive organ that aids in urination, has the ability to become erect and is used in sex acts to inseminate women or penetrate other men.  They do not realize that penises can be made to 'feel good' by stroking, licking, sucking, etc.  You're spot-on with that one.

But two year olds DO realize that boys have them and girls do not.  Two year olds are also acutely aware of society's gender roles, as well as their personal tastes and desires.  Do I have a psych degree to prove all this?  No.  I have 5 years of my adult life living in a home in which a daycare with 10 children aged 4 months-4 years, five days per week.  I think I'm qualified.

[Elwood]

Meh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

[Mister]

Meh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

which means it's yet to be disproven.

[Nero]

I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

It isn't. You're wrong if you think I'm comparing myself to others.

I just hate liars, and it's a lie if someone thinks they knew they were a man since embryonic state.

I didn't hear anyone say that. But children do exhibit gendered behaviour very early on. Whether or not it's related to outside social factors is anybody's guess.

[iFindMeHere]

It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

*clears his throat*

[Elwood]

*clears his throat*

Your ignorance is  showing.

You'd have to prove I was talking about me. You ASSUME I was talking about me but I wasn't.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 10:55:03 AM

Meh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

which means it's yet to be disproven.

Burden of proof fallacy.

[Mister]

Another thought..

So I'm "lying" if I realized something was amiss at 2 or 4.  What about if I had my epiphany at 50? 60? Hell, what about the 72 year old pre-T FTM I met last week?  Are the ages of these realizations invalid as well?  Because surely, you would have known before your so-called Golden Years, right?  Seriously, Elwood, what's your take on the latecomers?

Since so many of us are clearly doing this "too early" (and possibly "too late", depending on your response), when exactly is the correct or appropriate time to be self-aware?

[Elwood]

No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

[Mister]

You'd have to prove I was talking about me. You ASSUME I was talking about me but I wasn't.[

I find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:04:17 AM

No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

In all honesty, I cannot read every thread on this board nor everything you write.  You may have for all I know.

Again, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

[Sephirah]

It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are.

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else.

[Nero]

No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

Well as far as 'doing something about it (T, surgery, etc)', I'm a latecomer too.
But early realization is possible. Whether the child recalls something or not, their caregivers are certainly with it enough to remember.

[Elwood]

I find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Finally a reasonable response from someone. This I can agree with.

Again, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

This isn't about what is "appropriate." It's about what's feasible.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:09:52 AM

It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are.

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else.

This is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

[Nero]

I find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Finally a reasonable response from someone. This I can agree with.

Again, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

This isn't about what is "appropriate." It's about what's feasible.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:09:52 AM

It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are.

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else.

This is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

Sure. As surely as every man knows his own truth.