The importance of dressing (or lack thereof)

[Asfsd4214]

Hey everyone, for anyone that hasn't seen my main thread with my long winded story, basically I've been having trouble with psychiatrists feeling that you can't possibly be trans if you're not also a cross dresser, and being suspicious of me because I'm not, and feeling that I SHOULD be one until they're willing to be of any help.

Now I think that's full of crap, but it has made me a bit curious just how prevalent it is.

When I was little, like 5-10, I did wear pretty girlish cloths. Not dresses but a bit stereotypically pink and yellow clothing. And I did have times where I would try to dress more girly in private by myself. But when I grew a bit older, I got into this mindset where the female mind in me existed only in my head. Where sort of knew I was a girl but that nobody else saw me that way, so I just had to pretend to everyone else, and I saw no point in dressing any differently to any other guy, publicly or by myself. I knew what I was and I didn't feel any compulsion to express it by cross dressing. I felt like I was expressing it when I could simply be alone, and not have to present myself as a guy. Clothes are just clothes to me. Being female as opposed to male is something that's apart of my mind that I couldn't even begin to explain, but for me its rarely if ever given me any compulsion to cross dress.

I was just wondering if anyone else is like that? And no offense to cross dressers (as in those that are just cross dressers and have no desire to actually change the way they present themselves publicly), but I just can't really get my head around what motivates people to do it.

[Janet_Girl]

Many do it to find relief from they GID.  For me it was just that, for awhile.  Now... How else would you expect a woman to dress? 


Janet

[Tammy Hope]

When I was repressing, I went over 20 years without it (well, a tiny experiment a time or two but had little chance since wife is MUCH smaller than me)

I assume it's possible to have GID without doing it if circumstances prevented.

I wonder if the therapist is thinking more about the DESIRE to dress as opposed to the actual practice of it.

I do know from my experience that when I was hairy and bearded i couldn't stand to dress really because i know i looked like such a fool. so I can definitely understand wanting to but not wanting to, so to speak.

[Asfsd4214]

Thing is I don't really want too either... I don't want too but I don't don't want too, I just don't care.

I wear what I think looks good on me.

My GID stuff is entirely mental. I don't feel any desire to do stereotypically girly stuff because it IS girly, like wearing dresses.

If I had a female body would I wear dresses? Maybe, when it suits, but dressing is just dressing to me, it has no positive or negative connotations to me.

[Dana_W]

Yes... yes... Thank you for posting this thread!

I had a period earlier in my life when i experimented about as much as i could ever want in the "crossdresser" vein. And you know what? It's not the same thing as what I was feeling. I felt just as much a stranger among crossdressers as I did among straight and normal guys with only a few specific exceptions. The clothes were NOT the issue for me. Nor the makeup. Nor any of that stuff.

And I think as a consequence I probably follow a lot of what you said. I don't WANT to "pretend" to be a girl by crossdressing. To me it's real. I want the clothes to follow the reality. Not the other way around.

Not sure if this is what you were looking for but... there.

[placeholdername]

I like wearing girls clothes because I just think they look better in general -- guys clothes are mostly boring.  But at the same time it can be a somewhat dissatisfying... I hate having to stuff the bra or attempt to hide parts in other places.  I'm with Diana on this part:

I want the clothes to follow the reality. Not the other way around.

It's similar with makeup -- ideally I don't want to half to wear makeup to look female, and in general I think girls wear too much makeup too often, but if it looks interesting and attractive then I'm all for it.

[jesse]

dressing prior to hrt or srs is not a requirement of SOC this is a part of your real life experience and even then it would be apersonal choice as to what you were i know plenty of girls that routinely where guy cloths for comfort or simply because they cost less my gp told me the same thing my solution is i went to goodwill found a pair of female jeans I.E. lowriders that were made by Jordash look enough like male jeans that i actually were them to work w/o comment and a turtleneck shirt that is female elizabeth taylor both for around 10.00 and the shirt could very wel be unisex sie it is indistint from male turtle necks. lol so heres the plan when i go back to the GP  and that sob tels me i hve to dress im going to flip open the jeans and show him the lables still think the cloths make the girl hun (grins evilly)

[cynthialee]

When I was repressing, I went over 20 years without it (well, a tiny experiment a time or two but had little chance since wife is MUCH smaller than me)

I assume it's possible to have GID without doing it if circumstances prevented.

I wonder if the therapist is thinking more about the DESIRE to dress as opposed to the actual practice of it.

I do know from my experience that when I was hairy and bearded i couldn't stand to dress really because i know i looked like such a fool. so I can definitely understand wanting to but not wanting to, so to speak.

[/color]
I feel this way also. I can only be properly dressed so long as my foundation can conceal my 5 oclock shadow. If I even think its showing I have to put on the man suit and pretened again. I can't stand to look like a drag queen.. I would rather wait it out until my beard is completely removed. (I am actively doing electro for the beard..) I have been a woman in a man suit forever it seems. I can hold out for a few more months.

[Miniar]

There are women out there who just like to wear jeans and a t-shirt.
A skirt does not the woman make.

Maybe you're just not a "girly" girl.

[Deanna_Renee]

Clothes do not make a man a man, or a woman a woman, just ask a nudist. I wouldn't think that not being concerned about clothes, not caring about clothes, would make you any more or less GID. But what do I know?

Perhaps your therapist just needs a little more convincing regarding the way you feel, or more specific examples (beyond the 'obvious' cross-dressing) of what you feel makes you trans and not just 'confused'.

I'm curious as to what they think you are if not trans? If it feels like a rose and smells like a rose and you're blind, does that make it a daffodil?

Personally, I have been cross-dressing since I was a child. But, like several others had mentioned, I had a hard time dealing with it because when I would dress I was still seeing the boys body in girls clothes and I looked wrong. I went through periods of hating myself either for having a boys body, or for being a freak that wore girls clothes, or all of the body hair and boy bits, or for not knowing what it was like to be normal. My avatar was taken at the Southern Comfort Conference last month and was the first time I left the house dressed en femme, the first time another human had seen me this way and also the first time that I had ever had makeup applied (great makeup artist). I never felt better, even though I still felt like a girl in a boys body wearing girls clothes. Cross-dressed? or Mixed-up-dressed? Still I was completely ecstatic.

Deanna

Deanna

[sneakersjay]

As an FTM, before transition, I rarely wore men's clothing, except jeans, because they fit better.  And an occasional plaid flannel shirt from LL Bean, but those technically are uni-sex.  So in the opposite direction, I didn't cross dress either.   I think a lot of ladies enjoy cross dressing because it allows them to express themselves.  But I don't think lack of crossdressing makes you any less trans.


Jay

[DamagedChris]

I would consider getting a new therapist...

I rarely wore male clothing (at least for the explicit reason of wearing clothing designated male vs just dressing comfortably, I was a tomboy for a while through my childhood) before I started exploring the idea of being TS...in part overcompensating and playing the part my parents and friends expected of me, but also out of sheer comfort (I could never stand bras so I constantly wore tanktops with those built-in sports bras). Clothing is nothing more that pieces of cloth cut and sewn together in various ways to flatter different body types. For that matter, not all that crossdress are TS.

Just hang in there and explain to your therapist, as Deanna pointed out, what makes you different from just "confused".

[Asfsd4214]

I would consider getting a new therapist...

I rarely wore male clothing (at least for the explicit reason of wearing clothing designated male vs just dressing comfortably, I was a tomboy for a while through my childhood) before I started exploring the idea of being TS...in part overcompensating and playing the part my parents and friends expected of me, but also out of sheer comfort (I could never stand bras so I constantly wore tanktops with those built-in sports bras). Clothing is nothing more that pieces of cloth cut and sewn together in various ways to flatter different body types. For that matter, not all that crossdress are TS.

Just hang in there and explain to your therapist, as Deanna pointed out, what makes you different from just "confused".

Maybe I'll get a new therapist after my third one I see in december doesn't go well, which based on that I've heard today (more info here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,62300.40.html) is pretty much a recipe for disaster (doesn't think I should transition so young... at 21....)

It's kinda funny, I had absolutely no animosity towards the psychiatric profession until I had to actually talk to one, since then I've been told that maybe I just want to be different, that I shouldn't fight the system, that hormones don't do anything and cross dressing first is more important, etc, etc. Maybe a psychologist would be better, maybe someone who doesn't consider themselves "experienced in trans issues" would be better. But for right now, I think I've emotionally had all the counseling I can take.

I'm not going back to see either of the two I've seen already, both pretty much outright stated they were closed to discussion on this issue.

[DamagedChris]

I would want a therapist who is experienced in gender issues just because I DO want to make sure it's no deep-seeded quirk in my persona, especially since I'm prone to depression. And a non-experienced therapist might not have the questions to ask you or the information you want and need, and furthermore might be just as likely to say no to you, even going so far as basing their diagnosis off stereotypes and what they think a trans person should be.

If I was you I would think deeply into why you didn't feel like you had to crossdress, since the topic seems to come up and clash so much. Was it because you didn't assign gender to clothing? Was it easier to get on with everyday life without a fuss? Was it because of denial? Your therapist would most likely be more receptive to "I didn't pass at all in women's clothing and it felt socially wrong because of current crossdresser stereotypes" or "if I ignored it I thought it would go away" vs an answer of "I don't know, I just didn't feel like it". Same with if you don't currently crossdress...if you're currently comfortable, they aren't going to tell you you should change, out of fear of you being unhappy with the end result.

And a no or a cool answer isn't necessarily the end of the road if you can actually think about the questions they ask; even though many of us just treat them like a walking talking interview for hormones/srs, they are in the end paid to make us think about why we needed to seek them out and their questions are meant to stimulate questions to our own motives within ourselves. 

On a side note, coming off as too reserved or as if you're holding back is a great way to make them think there are bigger problems, so be open and honest.

Sorry if I've been a little redundant with this post or confusing...it's 4am as I write this.

[Asfsd4214]

I would want a therapist who is experienced in gender issues just because I DO want to make sure it's no deep-seeded quirk in my persona, especially since I'm prone to depression. And a non-experienced therapist might not have the questions to ask you or the information you want and need, and furthermore might be just as likely to say no to you, even going so far as basing their diagnosis off stereotypes and what they think a trans person should be.

If I was you I would think deeply into why you didn't feel like you had to crossdress, since the topic seems to come up and clash so much. Was it because you didn't assign gender to clothing? Was it easier to get on with everyday life without a fuss? Was it because of denial? Your therapist would most likely be more receptive to "I didn't pass at all in women's clothing and it felt socially wrong because of current crossdresser stereotypes" or "if I ignored it I thought it would go away" vs an answer of "I don't know, I just didn't feel like it". Same with if you don't currently crossdress...if you're currently comfortable, they aren't going to tell you you should change, out of fear of you being unhappy with the end result.

And a no or a cool answer isn't necessarily the end of the road if you can actually think about the questions they ask; even though many of us just treat them like a walking talking interview for hormones/srs, they are in the end paid to make us think about why we needed to seek them out and their questions are meant to stimulate questions to our own motives within ourselves. 

On a side note, coming off as too reserved or as if you're holding back is a great way to make them think there are bigger problems, so be open and honest.

I've been open and honest, I HAVE explained to them why I didn't cross dress, I have gone into why I won't cross dress for an indefinite period of time. They don't care what the reason's are, to quote one of them "I don't make the rules, this is just the way it is".

And the fact is I have spent the last 10 months straight thinking about why I feel this way, what if I'm just crazy, etc, etc. I have felt this way since I was 5. That's not a guess, I've found stuff from my past that was from when I was 5 which I remember and remember thinking and feeling this way then too. My entire life is littered dozens and dozens of time's, from as far back as I can remember, where I felt this way. I was never abused as a kid, I can't think of a single thing that could have triggered this issue from a mental perspective.

And the way I see it, if I can't find a single time when I haven't felt this way, when I have seemingly no other issues holding me back in life, and when I have spent the past 10 months, every single day, thinking about this, considering every possibility I can imagine as to why I'm this way. How is talking to someone going to provide me any wonderful insight? But, I tried it anyway, I went to two psychiatrists, both considered themselves "experienced in gender issues". One simply said she didn't make the rules and that there was not a chance I would get hormones until I was a cross dresser, the other said the same thing only more politely and without the "I don't make the rules part".

if you're currently comfortable, they aren't going to tell you you should change, out of fear of you being unhappy with the end result.

They won't say I should do it if I'm not comfortable with it, but they both told me that they're not going to recommend HRT to me unless I do.

Sorry it's just that I've been through all of this already, and I'm just getting frustrated.

[wabbit2]

Hey everyone, for anyone that hasn't seen my main thread with my long winded story, basically I've been having trouble with psychiatrists feeling that you can't possibly be trans if you're not also a cross dresser, and being suspicious of me because I'm not, and feeling that I SHOULD be one until they're willing to be of any help.

Now I think that's full of crap, but it has made me a bit curious just how prevalent it is.

When I was little, like 5-10, I did wear pretty girlish cloths. Not dresses but a bit stereotypically pink and yellow clothing. And I did have times where I would try to dress more girly in private by myself. But when I grew a bit older, I got into this mindset where the female mind in me existed only in my head. Where sort of knew I was a girl but that nobody else saw me that way, so I just had to pretend to everyone else, and I saw no point in dressing any differently to any other guy, publicly or by myself. I knew what I was and I didn't feel any compulsion to express it by cross dressing. I felt like I was expressing it when I could simply be alone, and not have to present myself as a guy. Clothes are just clothes to me. Being female as opposed to male is something that's apart of my mind that I couldn't even begin to explain, but for me its rarely if ever given me any compulsion to cross dress.

I was just wondering if anyone else is like that? And no offense to cross dressers (as in those that are just cross dressers and have no desire to actually change the way they present themselves publicly), but I just can't really get my head around what motivates people to do it.

You know that's a really interesting statement.

I live and work fulltime as me, a woman, but you can say I'm quite a tomboy in many ways.  I wear jeans and t-shirts casually and pants and tailored blouses or tops at work.  Though I do like to dress up from time to time and express my feminine side.

One question, why call it cross-dressing if you identify as female?  Also why contain yourself to male designated clothes and why make the statement "no point in dressing differently to any other guy"? 

Clothes do not make the man or the woman; but a conscious choice not to wear certain clothes does make a statement and the question is why make it, I'm curious?  I certainly wouldn't suggest you jump into dresses and heels, but maybe look at the reasons for your clothing restrictions more personally.

[Asfsd4214]

One question, why call it cross-dressing if you identify as female?  Also why contain yourself to male designated clothes and why make the statement "no point in dressing differently to any other guy"? 

Clothes do not make the man or the woman; but a conscious choice not to wear certain clothes does make a statement and the question is why make it, I'm curious?  I certainly wouldn't suggest you jump into dresses and heels, but maybe look at the reasons for your clothing restrictions more personally.

I call it cross dressing to avoid confusion, in all honesty I don't like referring to it that way for exactly that reason. From my personal point of view cross dressing is to be wearing male clothes, but trying to explain that's just going to confuse most people so I tend to just go along with it.

Why contain myself to male clothes? As opposed to what? wearing female clothes? If I woke up tomorrow with a female body then the one of the first things I'd do is go and get some appropriate clothes. But I don't have a female body so doing so would just make me look silly. I feel female already and wearing woman's clothes wouldn't make me feel any more female, it would just draw more attention to myself.

Simply put, clothes are just clothes to me, wearing female clothes wouldn't make me feel any better, it would just make me feel self conscious. Conversely if I did have a female body, I'd feel silly walking around in a suit and tie.

As for "any other guy", I meant from the perspective of everyone's perception of me, not my perception of myself.

[wabbit2]

Hon there are clothes and then there are clothes;  not all clothes designed primarily for men or woman would naturally look good on anyone.  Trust me there is plenty of womans items i would not wear as they don't suit me.

However, there are womans clothes that may look great on you too; such as certain t-shirts,  jeans,  cardi, trainers or whatever.....I really aren't trying to change your mind....just understand your point of view on why you feel certain clothes are off limits to you because of there "gender" definition.

[noeleena]

Hi....
   When i went to our endo . i was wearing male clothes . & nothing was said to me why i was not in womans clothes . same with our psych. at the time i never said i was a andro .  still . he never said a thing so why this detail going on .
I just told them both i was a woman . not the why am i or any thing just okay . i said what i was doing how i was going to get there & needed those things that would help me . to live as a woman . they never  ?/ me if i dressed as a woman . it was not a concern as far as they were concerned . i did go in female after two months when i saw our endo again , as i was allmost out as far as clothes were concerned . had h r t with in 3 months in my time . as i did not wont to start . straight away . even that was not a detail . i was 57 at the time so its not like i was some insane nut case or fliped out . they took my word as to what i was doing & that was it . you r attatude as to how you go about things is a must .
As it is i never dressed in female like many do just not me i did get dressed up for a panimime & thats it .
Knowing you are a andro . has helped me in many ways . after 11 years i m just a woman & seen as one . i dont meen the looks just being accepted . for who you are .
  The reason many G P s & psych s dont give out h r t is . they dont wont a court case on thier  hands if they get it wrong . or if you or others are just haveing them on . how would you feel being there . in thier place . would you just give out meds knowing they can kill you .
iI know it s hard . & yes i  know i just breezed on through .
I would allso say you do need some one who is intune with us & does know what its like . so yes you may need to find some one who will help . I hope you do .


....noeleena...

[wabbit2]

Hi Noeleena,  I think I know you from a local NZ forum, my actual name is Amie by the way

Your quite right about medical professionals being conservative and for good reasons.  I certainly wouldn't suggest however you should just do as a counsellor asks to get what you want nor do i think a counsellor can tell you what you need.

What i do think is you should get what you need when you are ready.  HRT is a major step for anyone and you should only start on hormones when you are ready and I think any cousellor worth there salt will see this in you.  Though if you really don't get on with your counsellor i would totally suggest changing them; as just to repeat myself counsellors can't tell you who you are they can just facilitate and if you have no confidence in them how can you really be honest? (ok that is totally my opinion, far from professional)


Post Merge: October 19, 2009, 04:58:50 AM

I call it cross dressing to avoid confusion, in all honesty I don't like referring to it that way for exactly that reason. From my personal point of view cross dressing is to be wearing male clothes, but trying to explain that's just going to confuse most people so I tend to just go along with it.

Yeah get what your saying there.....its tough getting people to understand your internal feelings; i hope you have support outside these forums and counsellors for how you relate as....the great thing about life is the albility to be an individual but it is nice to share that individuality with others