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FFS - Who Needs It, Who Wants It...

Started by Julie Marie, November 14, 2006, 07:53:08 PM

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melissa90299

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 28, 2006, 12:54:39 PM
While I know Dr O is the pioneer of FFS and I have nothing but the greatest respect for him, each face and each person has unique issues.  Everyone must decide for themselves which doctor best suits their needs. 

Julie


I would disagree with that to the point that most women want the same thing: feminization. If that's what one wants, IMO no one does it better than Dr. O. Now (I have heard) that others can make you look glamorous. But if it's feminization one wants, Doug is da man. 5 more days, need to start my Vitamin K, I almost forgot!
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Julie Marie

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 05, 2006, 09:19:14 PM
I would disagree with that to the point that most women want the same thing: feminization. If that's what one wants, IMO no one does it better than Dr. O. Now (I have heard) that others can make you look glamorous. But if it's feminization one wants, Doug is da man. 5 more days, need to start my Vitamin K, I almost forgot!

Melissa, all that's important is that you are happy with your FFS surgeon.  I think it's great you are such a fan of Dr O.  I'm sure that does a lot for peace of mind.  But I, for one, have needs/wants/personal situations that take me to another surgeon.  It's nothing against Dr O, just a personal decision. 

I wish you all the best and a quick recovery with your upcoming surgery.  Tell Dr O we all say hi and Merry Christmas!

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Julie Marie

Kiera, I've been a member of a forum dedicated solely to FFS for over a year.  It's pretty active.  The general consensus is those doctors who specialize in FFS are the only ones you should consider.  But, they all had their start in the practice too.

Personally I feel you need a surgeon who has the gift of not only being capable of doing the surgery but also an eye for the subtle differences between the male and female face.  It isn't just forehead and jaw work.  There's so much more.  

On Dr O's website there are silhouettes of the male and female face superimposed on one another.  It gives you a good idea of the differences from a side view.  But there's also the front and angular views that need consideration.  I see the best surgeons as being artists.  There's an up and coming surgeon near me that I'm hearing great things about.  He's often referred to as an artist.  If I ever have FFS he will be on the short list of surgeons to consider.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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DawnL

Quote from: Kiera on December 16, 2006, 10:49:38 AMHaving always thought that ones eyes and surrounding features are really the telltale sign and a true window into our inner soul I find it intriguingly haunting that I could actually take a feminine photo of someone who looks similar to me and ask a doctor "could I possibly ever look like that"??

Having been there Is that how indeed it actually works???

There is no simple answer to this question.  In broad strokes, the answer is yes, that is how it works.  In reality, little details will
determine the outcome.  In some cases, the male features can be removed, in some cases, the male features are only modified and
the result, in my opinion, is less than ideal.  Reducing the brow ridge is limited by the size of the sinus behind it though Dr Zukowski
has gotten some remarkable results with bone burring (I mention his result because I am most familiar with his work).  The chin is
usually more difficult though I am very happy with my result with Dr Zukowski which was achieved through bone burring alone.  I
had my photos altered prior to my FFS by Virtual FFS but to be honest, those bear very little resemblance to my final result.  I
think that FFS is, in part, a leap of faith in that you hope the end result is a beautiful you.  In reality, I was near desperate to erase
the effects of testosterone and I believe Dr Z did fabulous work towards that end.  I was very male, I am undeniably female now.
I don't think I imagined myself looking as I do.  I'm certain we all have a mental image of beauty that is simply unobtainable from
ANY surgeon.  

Dawn
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SusanK

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 27, 2006, 11:51:56 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on November 27, 2006, 10:54:27 PMIMNSHO, there are two categories of FFS surgeons. There is Dr. Ousterhout and everyone else.

I agree totally!

tinkerbell

Maybe years ago, yes, but not anymore, and some, including professionals, call him the Barbie Doll surgeon for his stereotype of the (trans)female face. If you like his work and can afford him, great, but he's not in his own class anymore, just a class of dedicated followers (no pummelling please, I'm not against him or you, just neutral).

It's an interesting thread, with as many views as people. I personally think it boils down to both personal and social acceptance, what you see and what you want the world to see. Some pass without ffs but, as noted, most don't, not without some surgery which would help. Some accept their non-feminine features and get through life fine, and some don't and want ffs.

Almost all I've heard or read their personal stories who have had ffs have expressed comfort and satisfaction with the results and felt it helped more than srs in their transistion on both levels, personal and social/public. As noted, realistically many of us won't be beautiful, so why have ffs if only to get inside the range of a women's faces?

My therapist has an interesting view of ffs. She says it can help but it's not essential if you accept yourself and if you accept the reality of yourself in the world. She says personality and temperament overcomes a lot (ok, along with voice). She's not against it either, she just wants you to understand it doesn't change many things, just your face, but she also sees it helps many accept themselves more than seeing their old self in the mirror.

My physician takes the slightly opposite side, namely suggesting ffs is helpful if it's clear you may have problems passing. She works with the whole person, but also says the first two things people note are the face and the voice, followed by the body (size, shape, etc.). If the face and voice don't work, she will suggest ffs. Her goal is to get you inside the range of women so you can get on with your life and not keep making your passing an issue.

And then I have to work on the voice. Just my thoughts.

--Susan--
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RuthChambers

Quote from: Melissa on November 24, 2006, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: Karen on November 24, 2006, 09:41:30 AM
Is there any place I can go, either on the web or in person, where I can see what results I might possibly attain with my face and different procedures?

What would be great is to be able to submit a hi-rez technical photo of my face, and then have it evaluated and then modified to show the minimum attainable results.
Yes, see http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/

Melissa

The advantage of virtual FFS is being able to see what the potential is and having an expert opinion from someone other than the surgeon. An opinion that you can use to have an informed discussion with your surgeon.

The comments that I had back also included the potential changes from hormone treatment, which could be important for those trans people who have FFS at the start of their RLE.

As an example:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=439 is before virtual FFS

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=457 is after virtual chin reduction, forehead work and cheek implants (they also thinned my eyebrows a little and removed some forehead lines in them too).

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=458 is after additional recommendations of lower eyelid surgery, rhinoplasty and reduction of the creases running down from the corners of my nose.

I found it best to have the three photos side by side on the same screen to see the changes.

My virtual FFS package included side profile and front profile and a detailed report.

It's a commercial service and it costs money !!! but I was impressed with the report I received and their comments on what I did not need as much as what they thought I did need ....

My comments are just an illustration on what you get from Virtual FFS. I am not looking for any comments on whether I actually need FFS or not !!!!!

Ruth
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Omika

To me, facial feminization surgery is more important than SRS.  In fact, I see SRS as the final step.  A method of 'sealing the deal' so to speak.  Being socially accepted as a woman and being proud of what I see in the mirror is more important to me than what's hidden between my legs.  Genitals are, really, just tools we use for procreation.  I'm not an overtly sexual person.  The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.

But if someone asked me if I had to choose between FFS and SRS, I'd pick FFS in a heartbeat.  I'm open sexually.  I make due with whatever is at hand.

If the last month of pyschological integration has taught me anything, being a woman is about how you feel, not what's between your legs.

~ Blair

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Melissa

Quote from: Blair on February 25, 2007, 04:54:58 PM
The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.
An orchiectomy (testicle removal procedure) would achieve that.  Is there perhaps more?  Would you choose and orchi or go all the way with SRS.  After all, an orchi is a lot cheaper.

Melissa
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Ms Bev

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 14, 2006, 07:53:08 PM
There is a belief out there that FFS is just as important as SRS, maybe even more so. 

Just curious why it's so rarely discussed here.

Julie




I look around sometimes, and study faces carefully.  I find that the basic structural differences in faces are anything but absolute.  A personal close gg friend of mine is a true knock-out.  Perfect skin, perfect eyes, perfect cheek, nose, chin, structure, etc.  I look at her sometimes, as pretty as she is, and think 'if she were me, she would think her brow ridges were thick, and way too male looking, and her shoulders are actually a little wide'.  If I look at individual details, I see a number of things that could easily use 'perfecting'.

Now then, these are some characteristics of the prettiest friend I have.  Why then, is she so pretty? 
I think we TS girls, women, look too much at structural details of what we think is female, and not the essence of what makes one female.  I fear we are trapped in a mindset of what looks female, and not what IS female.

I'll keep trying.

Bev
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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Thundra

QuoteThis topic can be a very divisive issue as many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do. Years ago, there wasn't much trans awareness and women who presented as female fairly well "passed" without it.

Doug Ousterhout who is the pioneer in FFS and my surgeon but also almost a friend has told me  a few stories about patients who come for help. He said he is getting a lot of women who are post-op and have lived years in the role who are coming in for FFS because they no longer "pass." People nowadays are trans-aware and can easily see through the make-up. In cities where there are a lot of trans women, even "100%" passable women like me will get clocked.

The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.

Strong opinions for sure, and you are welcome to have them, but here is another POV:

I live in a city with tons of trans-people of every stripe. Some post-op, some pre-op, some non-op, m2f's, f2m's, IS, she-males, etc, etc.   Now whereas the majority opinion of the women here seems to be that FFS makes them "unclockable," I and lots of women I know feel the exact opposite here. A woman that looks "too perfect" is ripe for closer examination, whereas a middle-aged woman with a few "facial quirks" doesn't get a second glance if they behave normally, and dress their age.

Plus, what we have noticed is that there are lots of women out there that are utterly convinced that we do not "read them" either, because they think they look so good. But, what you have to remember, is that just because a woman or a group of women does not confront you, or berate you when she "reads you," does not mean that she or they do not know. Many times, after a woman has "passed thru" our area, we all look at each other and go, do you think? It doesn't go much further than that usually, unless she was a jerk.

On the flip side, we have been surprised many times by women that we found out later on had transitioned. Most of the women in that category tend to be either naturally beautiful and young, or plain and even on the frumpier side. What you have to remember is that not many women without a husband or rich boyfriend have the time and/or $$$ to go and have a ton of facial surgery, and to recover from it.

At the very least, if you are a middle-aged woman or older, and you have a re-constructed face, even if you do not get "read" as trans, it will be fairly obvious to most other women that you had facial surgery, which in some quarters isn't going to win you any friends either. But, that is again your choice.

I think the last point I want to address is your comment about "needing" FFS. Who is to say who needs what? Since this FFS thing is a personal decision, than wouldn't that mean you only need it if you feel you need it for yourself? If someone else doesn't need it for themself, than I would think that would indicate that they in fact don't need it. If you meant to say that people need FFS to "pass," than I would say that they are better off not passing.

Because, IMO, if you need to work to "pass," than you do not, in fact pass. And if you do pass, than are not whatever it is you are trying to "pass" as. You are just pretending to be something that you are not, and eventually, women are going to notice this fact.
If no one ever told you, women are great at keeping our own house.
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Omika

Quote from: Melissa on February 25, 2007, 09:57:34 PM
Quote from: Blair on February 25, 2007, 04:54:58 PM
The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.
An orchiectomy (testicle removal procedure) would achieve that.  Is there perhaps more?  Would you choose and orchi or go all the way with SRS.  After all, an orchi is a lot cheaper.

Melissa

Well, I would love to have SRS.  I really would.  I would love it, and money isn't an issue to me.  The only doubt I've ever had is about vaginal depth.  I'd really like to be able to experience sex as a woman, but sometimes I think it's just a silly dream.  I suppose I'll have to talk to individual surgeons when I get to that part of my journey and learn the facts.

~ Blair
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Julie Marie

Lack of funds is a common reason given here for not transitioning, not having SRS and or having FFS.  And I'm talking about those who said they would do it if they had the funds.

My situation is this.  To have SRS I have to sell my house.  If I have FFS I'll have to use more of the equity I have in my house.  When I got divorced all I had left was what was in the house.  My retirement fund was wiped out, all my savings were gone.  Thirty three years of work and all I had was the equity in my home.

And I will sell the house and I will use some of the equity to have SRS.  Retirement won't be what it could have been.  Instead of moving to a nice warm place with a comfortable retirement plan supporting me, I'll be scraping to get by.  I may have to work until I no longer am able.  And if FFS is needed to fill my emotional needs, it will create further financial strain on me.  But I'll only have it if I feel life after FFS will be better than life without it.

I know one girl who said many times how she wished she could afford to transition, could afford HRT, could afford SRS.  Then she later shows me the brand new sports car she just bought!  "Now I see why you can't afford to transition." 

It's a matter of priorities.  If you really want something, you'll make that your primary objective.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 01, 2007, 01:13:49 PM
Lack of funds is a common reason given here for not transitioning, not having SRS and or having FFS.  And I'm talking about those who said they would do it if they had the funds.
I keep saying lack of funds is only delaying me from having SRS.  I WILL have it, but when your money is being taken away from you legally, you don't really have much choice.  I am still going to find ways of getting the money, but it will just take a bit longer for now.

Melissa
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Kate

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 01, 2007, 01:13:49 PM
I know one girl who said many times how she wished she could afford to transition, could afford HRT, could afford SRS.  Then she later shows me the brand new sports car she just bought!  "Now I see why you can't afford to transition."

I'm guilty of this, although it was a few years ago, before my emotional meltdown. But even then, I *knew* I was putting myself into a financial hole, and that maybe if I *couldn't* transition, I WOULDN'T.

Yea. THAT worked  ::)

Now I DO adore the car, but I also kick myself every day for not having the money I could have saved. Laser, therapy, dental work and HRT have HURT. Bad.

Plus, the car isn't exactly STEALTHY, lol, and I'm not sure if it fit's my new and evolving life appropriately ;)

Kate
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RuthChambers

Well the flip side of the money argument is whether FFS can help you earn a living in your acquired gender. Customers and co-workers see your face, not the rest of you !!!

I know a transwoman who had FFS and then due to a change in circumstances could not afford GRS and I feel for her predicament. However, she is working in her acquired gender and within a year should be able to afford GRS.

Ruth
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Melissa

For me FFS is a mixed bag.  If I style my hair right (and as time goes on), I seem to have no problem passing, yet I know the potential for me to look stunning is there with FFS.  I also wouldn't have my insecurities about my male features.  People are probably thinking "what male features?"  I just have learned to hide them well.  Sometimes I can feel confident enough to go out without any makeup and I get maamed in a store and other times I am wearing makeup and I don't feel like I could pass at all.  It seems to vary.  My guess is that I will eventually have FFS, but I'm ok for now.

Melissa
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Melissa-kitty

This is such a great thread!
My livelihood depends on having a professional appearance. I don't have to look beautiful, but adequate, and well put together. Scaring small children and dogs won't do! I have work to do in all areas of transition, probably a lot. But I will get there. May take a while. Certain things need to be taken care of to allow me to do my job as the woman I am inside. It seems wise, at this point, to consult with some FFS surgeons, to see what they think, see what can be done, and what should be done, and when. Knowledge and expert opinion will help me plan realistically.
Blessings, Tara

PS: what kind of car, Kate?  :D
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Julie Marie

I've heard it said, "I want to be able to answer the door no makeup and messy hair and have the person say, 'Hi Ma'am'.  That's what I want FFS to do for me."

For those who can already pass FFS can truly make you beautiful.  I know it's vain but I certainly wouldn't mind being beautiful.  Still, I really have doubts about volunteering to have my face ripped apart.  And what if you don't like the results?  More surgery?

Several doctors will do adjustments if you're not happy but that means you're back in surgery and have to go through the recovery process all over.  It takes a couple of months to heal but about a year to see what you will really look like.  For me there's a lot of doubts.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 02, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
I've heard it said, "I want to be able to answer the door no makeup and messy hair and have the person say, 'Hi Ma'am'.  That's what I want FFS to do for me."
I've actually had this happen a few times already, so this is not this that motivate me to get FFS.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 02, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
For those who can already pass FFS can truly make you beautiful.
This is the reason why.  When you "know" that the potential is there, it becomes something you think about regularly.

Melissa
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Yvonne

QuoteFFS - Who Needs It, Who Wants It...

Who needs it = impassable transsexuals
Who wants it = every ts or genetic girl who wants to improve their masculine features.
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