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My lesbian identity

Started by Tozzle, June 08, 2010, 08:24:40 AM

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Tozzle

Hi,

Just wanted to pose a question:

My partner of just over 1 year started to have really bad gender dysphoria back in March of this year, which has come and gone in greater and lesser waves since.  Over the past few days, after another attack last week, she seemed to reach a place of happiness (please don't correct my pronoun as she hasn't decided what to do about pronouns yet) and yesterday told me she no longer identifies as a female.  I replied 'oh, OK' as this didn't really come as much of a surprise and nor does it bother me an awful lot.  She told me later on last night 'oh OK' wasn't a sufficiently enthusiastic response, but this isn't why I'm writing.

The thing is, I identify strongly as a lesbian, having been one for all 35 years of my life and coming to terms with it when I was 21 - I like being a lesbian and I've never felt any need to be any other way.  Last night Y told me I can no longer call myself a lesbian as I'm not in a relationship with a woman.  To do so would undermine her identity as 'not a woman'.  I don't feel this is entirely fair as I'm supporting her need to identify in the way she feels most comfortable, despite my reservations about the potential reality that one day I may find my currently 'not a woman or a man' partner really wants to be a man and my discomfort with being in a relationship with a man (although this may turn out to be my projection of 'generic man' on my situation).

I can see where Y's coming from, wanting validation of her identity, but I'm not so happy that in order for that to happen I am being told I *must* give up my identity and I'd really value your thoughts and experiences on this.  To me it seems like a step back into a closet I've felt free from for years.  Also, I'm not bisexual, pansexual or straight.  Y says we can still go to lesbian club nights and hang out with our lesbian friends, but I can no longer call myself a lesbian.  I've read accounts of FTM guys and their lesbian partners - there doesn't seem to be any problem with one of them remaining a lesbian.

And of course after some deterioration in last night's discussion the argument - well why don't you just go off and find yourself a real woman and be a real lesbian? - came up too.  But I don't want to. I love Y.  And I want her to be happy, but also I need to look after myself too.

Any thoughts?

Tozz
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spacial

Think she's being rather self centered.

But to be honest, has she always been the dominant personality in your relationship?
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justmeinoz

You start with the difficult ones don't you?
It is one of the questions anyone in a relationship with a person questioning their gender has to confront at some point I guess. 

Has your partner tried to separate the areas of sexual expression and gender?
For someone who is FTM the physical situation is different to MtF due to the state of medical science.  Has Y said anything about their hopes in this area? 
Until they have surgery they will be no different physically, so is Y starting at shadows, and prejudging your likely reactions?

I have a close relative who is FtM, and in a relationship with a woman, and they seem to be getting on ok, although I have not been nosey. It appears the physical side of things  is not an insurmountable problem.

Do you think that Y is perhaps trying to make you feel less responsible for any future break-up, by making themself out to be the villain?
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Tozzle

@spacial
I wouldn't really say she was dominant in our relationship - we each bring different qualities to it (mine are the more patient ones, hers tend to be the more fiery ones), but she does try and push dominance sometimes when we're arguing and she goes incredibly stubborn and will barely make a move towards making up.  Sometimes it seems she'd rather hang on the anger/argument.

In that way, yes she is, and I know she's feeling a lot of anger alongside her dysphoria.

And in some other ways too, now I'm thinking about it.  One of the things that worries me about her potential transition is my need for equality and the potential for both her and our lives to become dominated by her needs and feelings.

Post Merge: June 08, 2010, 06:00:58 AM


@justmeinoz
Quote from: justmeinoz on June 08, 2010, 08:43:07 AM
1. Has your partner tried to separate the areas of sexual expression and gender?

2. Until they have surgery they will be no different physically, so is Y starting at shadows, and prejudging your likely reactions?

3. Do you think that Y is perhaps trying to make you feel less responsible for any future break-up, by making themself out to be the villain?

I've numbered your questions so I can try to answer them:

1. I don't think so.  She says if she goes through transition she will be a straight man, but doesn't like the straight world and would rather be a gay man or queer.  I think the problem here is that if I openly say I'm a lesbian (my sexual preference is for females and characteristics like soft skin, emotional being, pmt (yes, even this) breasts etc.) then what am I doing in a relationship with Y?

2. I get this feeling a lot.  Although Y maintains she doesn't want to transition as the health costs, and potentially relationships costs, may be too great.  She's very scared about work stuff too.  Y is generally scared about it.  However, I get the feeling (a gut feeling) that she has already decided transition is what's right for her and she's just building up to it.  More often than not her questions are along the lines of how would you feel when I have.... rather than if I had....  Her first language isn't english so there may be incorrect language usage at work here, but also her english is very good and I'm not so sure that's the case.  I've said to her I feel like she's lying to me (about exploring other options before transition) but she maintains she isn't.

3.  Definitely.  Over the past three month since we've been dealing with this she has been pushing me away (sometimes quite horribly).  In many ways I think this is to lessen the guilt she says she feels about how I feel about the idea of being with a man.  If I left because she was leaving me no other option then yes, it would be painful, but maybe she'd feel freer to do what's necessary for her?  Also, I've had to ask myself if leaving would be better for us both for the same reasons - her guilt at my upset and my guilt at her potentially not expressing herself as fully as she might if I wasn't around.  I've asked her outright what she would do if I wasn't around and she says that she doesn't want me to leave.  It's a bit of a catch 22 because she has said she's only felt free enough to explore her gender identity *because* she feels safe and loved.  And this exploration may be something that brings about the end of our relationship.

On one hand she's saying she wants to find a *third way* and not be a woman or transition to become a man.  ANd on the other she uses statements like "when I....".  I don't know if I'm coming or going some days (metaphorically) but I really need to find a level of peace with my own internal struggle or I'll be on my way to an unhealthy mental state.

Just realised I missed a question about her hopes for surgery:

4. She really wants her breasts removed regardless of anything else she does and has said she would like a hysto.  She says she has no interest in having a penis and therefore doesn't ever see herself having bottom surgery. 
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justmeinoz

It's getting late here and I have to get up early for work, so only one question.
Since it sounds as though Y is still blurring the differences between sex and gender, has she actually said what sexual activity is likely to occur after mastectomy etc?
I don't expect an answer, but maybe if Y considers what goes where, and how, and who would do what to whom , Y might be able to sort things into areas to consider seperately, and get some clarity.
Hope things work out. My ex left me for another woman, who I would actually have considered for a menage a trois family, due to inability to see all the possibilities and ask questions early.
With what I now know about myself, good things could have happened, but it all turned to the proverbial, thanks to lack of caring and respect.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Tozzle

Quote from: justmeinoz on June 08, 2010, 09:27:22 AM
Since it sounds as though Y is still blurring the differences between sex and gender, has she actually said what sexual activity is likely to occur after mastectomy etc?

This is something that confuses me greatly.  She has a great deal of discomfort about her breasts and to her they are invisible - until such point she is reminded of their existence, and her external appearance as a woman, by someone looking at them in the street.  She's very down about the existence of her breasts and this made me wary of any kind of contact with them as this would remind her they are there.  After a short period of bed death we had a discussion and this came up.  I said I simply didn't know how to touch her in a way that would make her feel sexy as she is voicing such strong negativity about parts of her body.  Her response was that I should carry on as I have always done as she doesn't mind me touching them, she enjoys the sensations and all the bits she's got now work.

I feel quite a lot of disassociation and sometimes catch myself trying to distance myself as although I enjoy her body as it is now, she doesn't and I find this quite hard - especially as what she's saying out of bed isn't how things are working in bed.
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wife4ever

Tozzle,

I can identify with you as I have done a lot of thinking on this topic lately - albeit, in reverse...

My husband has also had strong waves of dysphoria lately and though he used to identify as a cross-dresser he is now leaning towards starting hormones and contemplating SRS.

I identify as a heterosexual woman, although I am completely open to the notion of having a lesbian relationship with him (her) in the future. Does that, however, make me a lesbian? At first, I didn't give the idea much thought, but now that I have given the whole issue much, much, much thought - it *is* an issue. At least, I will have to make a decision of how I will present myself in the future...will I *be* a lesbian? I honestly don't know, and have to give the topic much more thought.

I do think it is something you and your partner will have to agree on, although I don't like hearing that you 'can't' identify yourself as a woman any longer, as you said, that is unfair to you. It is a decision that should be well thought out and agreed upon together. Not one person dictating to the other.

If a couple is going to stay together through this process, which is what you (and I) seem to hope to do, it will require a lot of communication, consideration and a team approach to just about everything. How can it work any other way?

Good luck,
wife4ever
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Calistine

It seems selfish of him to force you to give up your lesbian identity. But if you still want him, you will have to accept that he is a guy, maybe you just made an exception.
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Nathan.

I think that yes it is quite selfish to tell you to completely give up your own identity but I can see it from his point of view. I personally couldn't date a lesbian, lesbians like woman and that just isn't me, i'm a man and my partner has to see me a one.
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kyril

She absolutely has no right whatsoever to demand that you change your identity. That's controlling, domineering behaviour and it's unacceptable in any relationship.

Tell her that you are a lesbian and if she want's to be with you she's just going to have to accept that she's with a lesbian. Tell her that this is no different, and no more difficult a request, than the request she's made of you to accept that you're with a trans person. If she truly can't be with a lesbian, the solution to that is the same as the one you'd be expected to choose if you couldn't be with a trans person: leave.

Speaking of which, if you can't handle the physical aspect of transition, you are under no obligation to try to stick it out and continue a sexual relationship with someone you're not attracted to. You can love your partner deeply and yet not want to have sex and that is OK. In fact, if the sex is already not working because of the dysphoria, you are not obligated to continue to try. It is not wrong for you to be who you are and it is not wrong for you to decide to do what's best for you.

Trans people have the right to expect to be treated decently and respectfully, accorded our full human and civil rights, and acknowledged as the gender we identify with. We do not have the right to expect any specific person to be our romantic or sexual partner. And we do not have the right to expect others to redefine their identities to make us comfortable.


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Hikari

I agree with Kyril. I would also like to add something from my perspective on the issue. I am not 'out' as someone who is transgendered to my wife (however, she may have pieced it together....) but, I am only attracted to women, my wife says she is only a little attracted to women.

The way I see it If/when I were to transition then If my wife would stay with me then that would be enough. I mean how much can one ask? She could call herself straight all she wants as long as she realized that the relationship isn't. My identity isn't defined by what my wife calls our relationship. In such a circumstance I would certainly call myself a lesbian even if she called herself straight. Both people are entitled to their own identity even if to the casual observer it would seem to be in conflict.
私は女の子 です!My Blog - Hikari's Transition Log http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,377.0.html
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Tozzle

#11
Thank you all for your helpful advice.  I suspected the request was selfish, but I'm so close to the issue and this is a completely new area for me to negotiate so I really appreciate being able to come here and pick your collective brains.

@kyrill - sometimes I feel like I'm obligated to try because if I don't then what kind of person does that make me?  I really value our relationship and the love we have and it's not something I'm prepared to give up on easily as I really felt (and in lots of ways still do) that I'd met someone I might really be able to spend the rest of my life with.  But I'm not in the slightest bit attracted to men - an entity she will become if she chooses transition, and I'm certainly not about to try and limit her choices by say 'it's me or T' as I have no right to do anything remotely like that.  Most of the time I'm trying to take a deep breath, keep calm and carry on.  Even she doesn't know what the future will bring and whether or not she will enter into transition, so now I'm being as supportive as I can be whilst at the same time having to manage my own doubts, fears, insecurities and limitations.

@Nathan - you're right. If she becomes a man then she has every right to be treated as such and to feel undermined by the person you're in a loving relationship with isn't going to work.  She says that if she transitions she 'won't be like any man I've ever coe across' which to point is saying it's ok for me to view her as differently to other men.  It might seem easy to say something like that now, pre-T, but once transition starts I can't see how this is going to work.  How can he, as he will be then, identify as a man, live as a man, behave as a man but then put that back in the closet when at home?  I've tried to think of it a bit like dressing up for work or other social functions and this just seems totally inadequate for the scale of what will be going on.  And unfair.  It might be that if she goes for transition s/he won't be able to continue a relationship with a lesbian.

@Kyle XD - yes, I know and if it goes this way of course I will.  But I'm really not sure if I can maintain a sexual relationship as at the moment I can't separate 'men' as a generic group and male characteristics from my partner.

@wife4ever - yes, good communication, patience and willingness to be understanding, even if you don't understand, are key to the whole thing and at the moment this is what's keeping me going, along with being able to get the support I need as and when I need it.

Post Merge: June 09, 2010, 11:17:59 AM

@cynthialee - thanks for your message.  Can't for the life of me suss out how to reply and apparently I'm not allowed to 'view just anyone's profile' so have no idea how to message you back.
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oniRyan

Quote from: Tozzle on June 08, 2010, 08:24:40 AM
--- snip ---

The thing is, I identify strongly as a lesbian, having been one for all 35 years of my life and coming to terms with it when I was 21 - I like being a lesbian and I've never felt any need to be any other way.  Last night Y told me I can no longer call myself a lesbian as I'm not in a relationship with a woman.  To do so would undermine her identity as 'not a woman'.

--- snip ---

Indeed... I understand that... am in a similar place myself / exploring "how much do I like guys"


Recently had a discussion where I explained to a friend:

"...possibly have gone bibo..."
"bi for boys"
"as in ... lesbo, but but likes boys just enough that I'm bi... a bibo"



lately, I have sort of caught myself looking at guys a bit, even though such things never work out for me... and the most profound realization that "yeah, guys aren't all bad" ... a few FTMs I've known... some real chemistry / interest has been expressed. I've begun to expand my simplified self-labeling as "dyke" to be a bit more inclusive... even if I don't know what to call it yet...

Hang in there,
Ryan (Ryan... which I PREFER over my legal name, even though I identify more female than  male)


---EDIT: expansion:---

Quote from: Kyle XD on June 08, 2010, 03:51:08 PM
...But if you still want him, you will have to accept that he is a guy, maybe you just made an exception.

AWESOME idea -- kudos kyle =^_^=

That's totally how I'll probably do things -- would deffinately rather think of myself as still a lesbian, but if I have a male partner, he's an exception, and I love him no less.

=^_^= ... but that's me. would jokingly admit to being "bibo" too.
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kyril

Ryan, you could call yourself a Byke :)


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Tozzle

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rejennyrated

As someone who is not only longterm postop MtF myself but has for the past 22 years lived with another longterm postop MtF woman and in a very loving and faithful physical relationship despite the fact that neither of us is really lesbian in orientation I just wanted to say that I admire the way that you guys are trying to work this out.

My own experience is that sexual orientation is somewhat mutable, particularly when you really love the other person.

When I was newly postop I did consider myself as bisexual, however 26 years later I have recently done some work to remove the psychological residues of two rape experiences one in childhood and one when I was postop - inevitably both involving men. Since then I have found that my orientation has gradually drifted to become rather more straight than bi... but the bond between Alison and myself is so strong that even though the physical act does not always feel entirely natural these days we continue to enjoy a physical relationship and things generally do work out.

As to what others make of me... one of the beauties of the security which comes with age (I'm 50) is that I no longer really care how anyone else see's me.

So I hope that you two will be able to find a similar mutually satisfactory accomodation.
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Nicky

I think you have every right to self identify as you like. I also think it is totally ok for you to say "I am a lesbian, but I also love my partner who is not a woman".

It is like a lot of straight women have to go through when their husband becomes a woman. Not many survive this, but some do. Their partner becomes the exception to the rule, but they don't cease to be heterosexual in orientation. Anecdotally they tend to be older couples and they evolve into a more sisterly relationship. I think your relationship will need to evolve too.

My wife used to call herself a Nicksexual. That worked well for us for a number of years until I transitioned too far for her.

I hope it works out for you. If it does not I don't think their should be any guilt about it. My wife was terribly guilty she could not support me anymore, or be able to 'put up with it', even though I never blamed her. I totally understood. It was really tough.
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Dryad

Sexuality is, for me, anyway, a sliding scale.
I identify myself as gay; I'm really only interested in women. However.. Since sexuality is a sliding scale, and I've found myself being attracted to a very few males in the past.. Sure; doesn't happen often. Because it were only two people, I don't consider myself bisexual. Well; to be perfectly honest: I wouldn't consider myself anything.. Maybe pansexual, but that's because I've convinced myself just to go with the flow, and do what feels right.
What feels right so far have mainly been women.

Nobody is 100% this or the other. You could be a lesbian, and find this amazing man who completely rocks your world. Does that make you any less lesbian? Not really. It just shows that there are exceptions to every single rule. And that you've just found this one person who breaks it. Well; it happens.

If you identify as lesbian, then nobody can argue with that, unless it shows that your preference generally dictates otherwise. A single heterosexual relationship does not the hetero make. :P
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Tozzle

Quote from: Nicky on June 10, 2010, 05:33:34 PM
I hope it works out for you. If it does not I don't think their should be any guilt about it. My wife was terribly guilty she could not support me anymore, or be able to 'put up with it', even though I never blamed her. I totally understood. It was really tough.

At the moment we're both feeling a lot of guilt - my partner for needing to address what's going on and me for being so shaken by it and not knowing how far I can go.  But we're still smiling and loving one another, being supportive and taking little steps forward.

Post Merge: June 11, 2010, 10:27:37 AM

Quote from: Dryad on June 11, 2010, 10:04:33 AM
Nobody is 100% this or the other. You could be a lesbian, and find this amazing man who completely rocks your world. Does that make you any less lesbian? Not really. It just shows that there are exceptions to every single rule. And that you've just found this one person who breaks it. Well; it happens.

If you identify as lesbian, then nobody can argue with that, unless it shows that your preference generally dictates otherwise. A single heterosexual relationship does not the hetero make. :P

All true and I see what you're saying.  What I'm constantly reminding myself is that I'm not going to suddenly wake up one morning next to 'generic man'.  The person I've fallen in love with will still be there in many respects.  But when I think about attraction to men, fancying them, their attributes and characteristics I get hung up on things that I don't like and I'm reminded about all the things I like about women that will disappear if she goes ahead and transitions.  Some days i feel quite calm, like I can handle anything, and other days I'm terrified and need to keep reminding myself of all the positive male influences there are in my life.
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FairyGirl

Quote from: kyril on June 08, 2010, 04:00:08 PMTell her that you are a lesbian and if she want's to be with you she's just going to have to accept that she's with a lesbian. Tell her that this is no different, and no more difficult a request, than the request she's made of you to accept that you're with a trans person. If she truly can't be with a lesbian, the solution to that is the same as the one you'd be expected to choose if you couldn't be with a trans person: leave.

Speaking of which, if you can't handle the physical aspect of transition, you are under no obligation to try to stick it out and continue a sexual relationship with someone you're not attracted to. You can love your partner deeply and yet not want to have sex and that is OK. In fact, if the sex is already not working because of the dysphoria, you are not obligated to continue to try. It is not wrong for you to be who you are and it is not wrong for you to decide to do what's best for you.

Trans people have the right to expect to be treated decently and respectfully, accorded our full human and civil rights, and acknowledged as the gender we identify with. We do not have the right to expect any specific person to be our romantic or sexual partner. And we do not have the right to expect others to redefine their identities to make us comfortable.

Kyril you so often have such wise and practical advice to share. There are quite a few of us I reckon in this same or similar situation. I am for now with a woman I love deeply and completely, but sex for us ended a long time ago as neither of us are sexually attracted to women. That's just the way it is and it's nobody's fault. That doesn't stop it from being terribly sad though, and I've cried many tears over it as I'm sure Tozzle you probably have too. For now we have a truce and we are both in "wait and see" mode. She says she is willing to be with me in a non-sexual relationship but I know the loss of a sex life is a disappointment to her. I also know she fully expects that at some point after my surgery I will find a man I want to be with and move on. It's all so disgustingly tragic, but I still feel that as long as there is real love there that things will work out the way they're supposed to. I know that's not very helpful, but sweetie at least you can know you aren't alone in dealing with this.

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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