Who could detransition?

[Saskia]

I couldn't do it. I wouldn't want to do it either. I doubt I would pass as male anymore either since I get maamed with no make up on and wearing my motorbike crash helmet.
Actually the thought of de-transitioning is horrendous and no amount of money would ever persuade me.
I'm happy as I am thank you.

[Tippe]

Of those who have detransitioned that I have seen it is often caused by inflexibilty either on the part of the transitioner or those around them. So my take on detransition is that the more rules you put in place to try to protect people from themselves the more you risk treating a set of rules and not an individual human being in all the complexity of their circumstances.

Exactly my feeling. I've studied a lot of research on these matters and work actively to improve transgender threatment in Denmark.

A Swedish study revealed that app. 91% of the people applying for surgery are granted a permit, with a total of 3.8% seeking sex reversal at a later time. Thus even in a very liberal country the huge majority is happy with their transition. A study from the Netherlands revealed that 69% of the applicants vere referred for HRT and 58% of the total applicants completed surgery with only 0.9% regretting it later. Most studies show figures of regret between 1-1.5% in MF and about 1% in FM's.

In contrast to this the Danes are so strict that only 8-11% of the applicants have received surgery permits during recent years with probably only half the people  useing them. While Standards of Care clearly states that GRS needs to be recommended by a specialist when appropriate the Danish Clinic of Sexology expressly states that they can never recommend gender change, but only write a statement declaring whether anything contradicts it. Thus they are clearly not open in their two year evaluation. They also specifically state they are doing an observation phase, not counselling! The applicant is thus clearly in opposition to the clinic treating them from the start. Even getting a name change turns out to require about nine months of observation at the clinic although they are able to allow it right away under current law if they wanted to.

Now alot of communication studies show that strict observation will make the applicants exhibit a presentation focus where they are very keen on not saying or doing anything wrong, which obviously hinders dialogue and reflections. When I contacted the clinic for help I actually wanted to discuss my feelings about being transgender, how to handle them and which worries I had about the transition I had begun, but it was soon evident that if I wanted to get anywhere the only way I could do it was by telling the story of being a girl since the get go and hidding any and every doubts. To get anywhere you have to plead for HRT from the start and to be allowed to get them you have to tell that you want GRS in the end. No middle way. This is especially stupid since hormones themselves are readily available in Denmark. So they should know that people, who are not on HRT already when they seek the clinic go to them for other reasons than the HRT itself...

Now that I've finally started HRT - which the clinic only allow after 12 months and a 4 months waiting list at the gyneocologic department - I am very, very pleased by them, but still I feel sorry that I never had the possibility to discuss what I was about to start and the lack of readiness that resulted in. Now I'm according to the timetable ready to apply for GRS, but still there was never a place to talk 100% openly about i.e. the feelings of not speaking with my mother for more than two months. I know many people - and I will do so too - who apply for the permits and only feel able to speak openly after they get it. This may of course be part of the reason why only 40-60% of the persons receiving the permit here end up using it. I just can't help thinking this is so completely backwards and that those first two years are really pointless. Why not take a more collaborative and open approach to the whole thing from the beginning. (And yes, I went full time a year before I contacted the clinic too...)

Now just beginning my fourth year as a woman I feel it is so long since I lived as male that I simply can't immagine how it would be and I have sometimes wondered if it really was that bad or if I should make one last attempt at it, but I feel kind-of locked-in now because of this silly system, which never allowed any experimentation. Hell I'll probably not even be able to change my name again without another year of observation and where am I then, when I - like the others who had a periodic pause - find myself wanting to complete my transition later? It's just not possible in Denmark unless you have the money to pay everything yourself.

Of course I have been through an amazing personal development during this period and I feel so much more free and social now. My colleagues and class mates accept me etc. I would never want to go back to being the person I used to be, yet I can't help wonder if I'd be able to transfer this development back into my birth sex like they asked in a reality program once: "What as a man have you learned from being a woman?" I can't let go of that line.
There is, I thing two main reasons behind this. One is of course that my mother makes it very clear to me that I am a problem to her for being transgendered and the other is that although I think I have come a long way I still can't help - in some way - feeling that being cis-gendered would be better or more acceptable than being transgendered.

Worst of all studies show that the two most common reasons for regret are bad surgical outcomes and rejection or other issues with family and friends. For this reason the Danish approach may actually well be responsible for high regretfullness due to lack of surgical experience in the country and lack of possibility of working on family issues and other problems which might arise.


Tippe

[spacial]

Of those who have detransitioned that I have seen it is often caused by inflexibilty either on the part of the transitioner or those around them. So my take on detransition is that the more rules you put in place to try to protect people from themselves the more you risk treating a set of rules and not an individual human being in all the complexity of their circumstances.

I've done some thinking since my last, rather selfconscious post in this thread.

My problem was I had not really managed to mature enough, emotionally, to exist without my family. The years I spent wishing and planning, I had not really considered that or many other difficulities. The brief time I spent, I clung to tight too people.

When those ended, all I had left was my family.

You hear stories of people, wives, children, choosing to return to those who are abusing them. It's difficult for some to understand. Bullying relatives destroy you, they destroy your self confidence, your self esteem, your sense of worth. All that is left are the breif periods of approval they may give. The expectation of those brief approvals, even just a small smile, that expectation itself is a reward.

People generally, all of us, we tend to accept others as they are. We each create our own realities. The reactions we get from others is that which we seek. But frequently, what we seek is what we have learnt to accept rather than what we each need. Those with gentile personalities, for example, tend to receive a response that rewards that. We all enjoy meeting gentle people, they are non threatening, they make us feel safe. So they get a feedback from their own presentation which encourages them to continue.

Each of us experiences some negativity in our dealings with others, those moments when we feel dissatisfied, hurt. Most of us, perhaps all of us, might conclude that that person is difficult, or we don't like them. In reality, the rough edges in our personalities have grinded with the roght edges in theirs. we created that feedback. That explains why others might not complain of the same negative reactions from that same person.

If someone presents as being inadequate, worthless and someone to push around, we do it to them. We rationalise this to ourselves by saying they don't mind, or we are just kidding.

But people who are destroyed inside accept that because they lack the emotional skills to say they don't.

In my case, and I know this happened and happens to may young people, almost every aspect of my behaviour was highlighed and held up as an example of why I was so evil. Many things were dismissed as attention seeking behaviour, for example.

Even as an adult. I recall once I was working in a admissions ward while I was a nurse. A psychiatrist, who I hadn't realised was there, told me something I'd done was inappropriate attention seeking behaviour.

What is wrong with seeking attention? And in the case of that psychiatrist, his remark was more attention seeking than mine.

I went through dozens of reasons why my wish to be female was wrong and evil. I was seeking to emulate my mother, disgusting. I was lying to others, evil. I was being a wimp, coward and so on.

So, I went back.

All I really know for certain is that that was a mistake. I went back but the clock didn't. I don't know what else I could have done at that time. i don't know how it would have turned out even. All I can do is try to turn that into a lesson.

[marleen]

Trying to find a reason that would cause me to detransition, I can only think about my children, and even then, what use would a depressed and most probably suicidal 'father' be to them?
For myself, I'm pretty sure I would rather be dead than having to pretend I'm a man again. I've only been living full-time for 3 weeks, but I find myself singing and whistling in the morning (and at other times of the day as well :-) ), rather different from what it used to be before.

[Angela]

Detransition ?I have to laugh at this.Go back to being that nerdy and loudmouthed jerk that I was? No way,not even if a loved ones life depended on it.Im a much kinder and understanding person as Angela.As John I was the total opposite.

[Just Kate]

Wow, I cannot believe I didn't see this thread earlier, especially with so many replies.

I personally detransitioned and know many others who have too.  The HBSOC (Harry Benjamin Standards of Care) which was the primary method of gatekeeping back when I transitioned in the late 90's, was and still acts as a godsend.  Without it I might very well have made a major mistake.

I lived full time, had a job, dated, and was going to school and I was very happy with my female role.  However, I couldn't get past the nagging doubts that all this was in my head.  Regardless of the fact that my brain was telling me "I'm a girl, I'm a girl, this is right, being male was wrong" I felt like my brain, like with so many other conditions of the mind, could have been lying to me.  I also hated the lying and deceit that went with transition to maintain stealth - modifying the experiences of my past constantly, never feeling like I could honest or real with anyone.  I thought "damn I went to all this trouble to 'be myself' and I cannot even be honest now!  I'm still a in a box!"

Well I got sick of the box and the lies and starting 'coming out' that I was transgendered.  For some reason, having people know of my past made me feel more at ease - a lot more at ease but it caused problems of its own.  Dating prospects were more difficult obviously and some of the people I knew who were cool with the female me, couldn't handle that the person they thought was always female wasn't.

The final thing that kicked me into going back, to detransitioning was seeing all of the incredibly disappointed and unhappy people who were transitioned.  Im not talk about on the forums, but in real life.  After all they did, they still regretted, still bemoaning things they were missing in their lives and those sadnesses were consuming them.  Those who didn't pass at all were even more depressed and I had to deal with a number of other TG people I knew committing suicide.  I started to think "there has to be another way!  Not everyone can have a successful transition, and those who do seem to have the potential for intense lingering sadness".

So I decided, even though I might be one of the lucky ones who transitioned at 19, could pass easily and quickly, I realized I wanted to see if I could make it as a guy again, so long as I was "out", didn't live in the box of being male, and tried cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to control the triggers that provoked my GID.  After all, if it didn't work, I could always go back right?

***

Let me mention about something Kate said.  Kate said that the RLE, as annoying as it is to many transpeople, is very important for weeding out those who could otherwise live without transition.  I echo that so strongly it moves me to tears.  The detransition group I am a part of has VERY strict confidentiality rules - for one to protect their identities, and two to protect them from members of the trans community who don't want to hear about them, but I will tell you this.

Nearly every post op I've met who detransitioned only got into the mess they did because they DIDN'T follow the the proper order set out by the SOC or WPATH.  Sure, roll your damned eyes at me you doubters and naysayers and "I should be able to whatever I want"ers, but I'm serious - gravely serious.  These people were the same way, they were convinced they would DIE without transition, they never thought for a moment they'd regret any part of it, afterall, their whole lives they wanted it.  They listened to people who said the RLE was dumb and gatekeepers were annoying, and justified hurrying the process.  They also cite pressure from other TS's to transition, transition, transition - which all of us can attest exists from our community even if it isn't direct, it is always indirectly there.  Finally they cite they never knew there was another way to do it to live with GID without transition.  These people are generally very sad pandas.  In their shoes I probably would have remained transitioned, but I cannot be sure, but they exist, and they deal with challenges many of us couldn't dream of.

In fine I'd like to say that even if you have no doubts when you begin transition, don't believe for a moment you'll never change, don't cut corners on the SOC, don't think you are better or more "trans" than others.  These attitudes can blind you to the reality of the possibility that you *might change your mind as remote or impossible as that may be, and then it will be you I get to read about - you who wished things were different, that you had stopped earlier, that wished you had taken more precautions.

I hope you can see why I don't really like seeing gender-questioning individuals being pushed into transition's path.  The truth is MOST MOST MOST of the people I know who have regretted it and are post op... wait for it... transitioned YOUNG (before 30).  In the end, people change, and they change A LOT in their 20s.  Take that as a warning you whipper snappers.

[MaggieB]

Interalia,

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition? If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people? I think that had I been told that there was another way when I talked to the four therapists I went to, that I might not have taken the path I did. Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 

Maggie

[Just Kate]

Interalia,

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition? If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people? I think that had I been told that there was another way when I talked to the four therapists I went to, that I might not have taken the path I did. Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 

Maggie

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition?
The techniques help block the stimuli that provoke my dysphoria, the pain that motivates me to transition.

If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people?
Number one, because I developed the CBT techniques myself therefore they have not yet undergone the rigors of psychological testing, and number two, because controlling triggers does not cure GID. 

Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 
Some reparative therapy masquerades itself as CBT, but it is not.  What I do is not religious in any way - I do not believe reparative therapy works.

[MaggieB]

Interalia,
So I understand what you are saying,  by using CBT, you have the ability to be content and functional as a male even though you still have a female internal identity. In essence, you are able to live in the male role and in the male world. Do you relate to other men like in men's clubs or just hanging out with them? Can you understand male bonding and interactions? Do they relate to you as male too?

Maggie

[pretty pauline]

I don't know how anybody could possible detransition after fully transition then going back and ending up a guy again with a vagina, we all heard the case of Samantha Kane http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Samantha which I found very weird, anyway everybody is different, I could never detransition, Id never want to, go back to being a very unhappy guy, no thanks, Im now a very happily married attractive woman, I love being a girl, a woman, a female, I never never want to be a guy, happy the way I am now.
p

[Just Kate]

Interalia,
So I understand what you are saying,  by using CBT, you have the ability to be content and functional as a male even though you still have a female internal identity. In essence, you are able to live in the male role and in the male world. Do you relate to other men like in men's clubs or just hanging out with them? Can you understand male bonding and interactions? Do they relate to you as male too?

Maggie

You could say that its not that I'm suddenly a better male, I can better handle the dissonance as often that is provoked because I'm not female.  I am a good chameleon and blend into my social environments, but around my personal friends I can be myself - myself = far too feminine than is healthy for any male.  I tend to still follow a female role in most ways even when chameleoning and people think I'm a little off, but I'm generally inoffensive.   I would never go to a men's club, but I can hang out with them - they accept me as "the woman" there - if they only knew.

[MaggieB]

You could say that its not that I'm suddenly a better male, I can better handle the dissonance as often that is provoked because I'm not female.  I am a good chameleon and blend into my social environments, but around my personal friends I can be myself - myself = far too feminine than is healthy for any male.  I tend to still follow a female role in most ways even when chameleoning and people think I'm a little off, but I'm generally inoffensive.   I would never go to a men's club, but I can hang out with them - they accept me as "the woman" there - if they only knew.

Isn't being a chameleon not being true to yourself? You seem to be bending to the society rather than being who you are. How can that be comfortable? Is that where CBT comes in? It dulls the pain of having to live like that?

Maggie

[Just Kate]

Isn't being a chameleon not being true to yourself? You seem to be bending to the society rather than being who you are. How can that be comfortable? Is that where CBT comes in? It dulls the pain of having to live like that?

Maggie

No, being a chameleon is not fully being myself- it is one of the pressures that caused me to transition and one of the pressured that led me to detransition too.  One of my CBT techniques has been to be out with nearly everywhere - so that I wouldn't feel the need to revert to being something I'm not.  As such in most cases, work, home, and out, I can be myself - but there are still uncomfortable social situations where I hide myself behind a mask in order to protect myself.  That used to tear my apart, those little episodes of self preservation, but I can better deal with them now.  I compare it to having to hold your breath underwater.  You can teach yourself to do it for so long, but eventually you have to come up for air.

[VeronikaFTH]

Quite a few people have posted almost exactly how I feel: Transition for me is a one-way street. I starting transitioning knowing that there was no going back. And if I feel later that I've made a mistake, well, I'll deal with it, and live with my mistake.

But then, I'm 36, and quite mature mentally and emotionally. I've considered carefully my life and my future for a period of years. I'm not a person who blindly jumps into things, or makes decisions based on emotions alone. I'm extremely rational, and try and strike a balance between my emotional and intellectual self.

So when I made my decision, I went slowly. I started on low doses of hormones, gradually increasing them. About a year after that, I slowly (very slowly) started coming out to close friends and family. I took my time to adjust to everything... paying close attention to my emotional, physical, and intellectual self, and how I was dealing with it all.

With me, every step I take just cements my decision to transition a little bit more. If I had any doubts, I wouldn't be doing this. Period.

The standards of care are there for a very good reason. Not all of us are so confident, and many of us are confused and need to sort things out. The SOC is there to prevent people from making a mistake. Counseling is given in an attempt to help people work through their issues before making a serious (possibly irreversible) decision they'll later regret.

I do have one good friend who is fully transitioned and has had FFS and SRS, the works. She's a very beautiful woman... but quite unhappy with her transition. She feels as if part of her decision to transition was her thinking that transition was the solution to all of her problems, providing some sort of escape from them. She has been considering de-transitioning, but she also has chronic, severe, untreated depression, and is often emotionally scattered.

She did jump through all the SOC hoops, however she lied a bit and embellished her past in order to gain the permission letters needed for her to transition. Now, realizing what she did, and how her life isn't what she thought it would be, she's regretting it.

The plain truth is that transition will not make all problems go away, only transition-related problems. Also, if one has issues with chronic depression, it will probably return eventually, unless dealt with professionally through medication/counseling. I received treatment for my severe depression before making any sort of decision on transition, and I'm glad that's the way it worked out. It's probably best to handle the depression BEFORE making any important decisions, such as transitioning, because of the profoundly twisted effect that depression has on thought processes. Those of you who suffer from severe depression (as I do) can sympathize with this, I'm sure.

I suppose my point is that transition isn't an escape, and unchecked personal problems will follow the transitioner. And, if there's any doubt about transition, it shouldn't be done. Simple as.

Vee

[MaggieB]

I was interested in the idea of de transitioning only to please others and to get along in society without the blatant discrimination that I face now. Some of it is because of being female not trans. Some of it is because my wife and I are perceived as being lesbians when only I am. She has adapted to my transition but we are not romantically linked anymore. That is very lonely for both of us. SO when I read that CBT could make it possible that I could go back and tolerate being male again, I was very interested. I see now that it is another coping mechanism but it doesn't cure the condition. I will always be female brained and act like one. If I could pretend to be male and use CBT to make that tolerable, I think I might flip out one day. That could be disaster for me. Thank you for telling me about what your experience with CBT is and I wish you all the best in your life. You must be much stronger willed than I am.

Maggie

[Just Kate]

I was interested in the idea of de transitioning only to please others and to get along in society without the blatant discrimination that I face now. Some of it is because of being female not trans. Some of it is because my wife and I are perceived as being lesbians when only I am. She has adapted to my transition but we are not romantically linked anymore. That is very lonely for both of us. SO when I read that CBT could make it possible that I could go back and tolerate being male again, I was very interested. I see now that it is another coping mechanism but it doesn't cure the condition. I will always be female brained and act like one. If I could pretend to be male and use CBT to make that tolerable, I think I might flip out one day. That could be disaster for me. Thank you for telling me about what your experience with CBT is and I wish you all the best in your life. You must be much stronger willed than I am.

Maggie

Living without transition, like transition, is not for everyone.  I think that one day, such techniques as many of us are pioneering can be perfected to help others who choose not to undergo the rigors of transition yet survive with GID.  Perhaps even a non-transition focused cure will be discovered one day - but who knows.  I appreciate the questions you asked.  I'm not out to convert anyone to my way to coping, but I do wish for others to know there are people who live without transition.

[rejennyrated]

My problem with this is that whilst I do understand and respect Interalia's experience, the fact remains that mine was somewhat different. I was a young transitioner. I was also one of those who has not regretted it, and honestly believes that if I had been forced to delay any longer without surgery I simply would NOT now be alive.

Given my experience I do wonder how many people like me are not so lucky as I was and simply dont find the one doctor who will bend the rules for them, and as a result wind up on a slab.

Do you see why I have problems coming to terms with the opinions of those of you who seem to want rigidly enforced rules? Because if such rules had been enforced on me I genuinely do not believe I would be alive now, and so it is very difficult for me not to feel as if those who would argue for such a rigid system, were effectively calling for my death!

Now please also understand I am absolutely NOT taking this personally, or indeed holding any grudges, but I do want to convey to people the need for a doctor to be free to treat the individual before them who may not be the same as the last patient, indeed may well be different from the next one.

Please let us have guidelines by all means - but never rules. The doctor MUST be free to exercise their professional judgement and to act in their patients best interest.

Almost 30 years on, and with not one moment of regret, I am living proof that mine did so when he bent the rules for me. I may be the exception, but surely it is still not right, if by enforcing rules, however well intentioned, you cause the needless death of one single patient.

[MaggieB]

What Interalia has brought up gives me great pause. We hear the people who think transsexuals are mentally ill and only in need of the right therapy to make them stop the gender variant behavior. The religious right chants this all the time at every opportunity yet so far only their variation of reparative therapy is what they offer. They use it as a reason to deny trans people ENDA and advocate shunning us until we repent and seek such care.

The idea that CBT could be the silver bullet that would enable us to act according to their social construct seems most worrisome. It seems to work for Interalia and no doubt if it was promoted by the RR, we could be faced with  having to say why we won't try it or having our rights further denied because there is a "Cure" at least one that would allow us to suffer in silence.

I researched CBT and LBGT on Google and found that it is being used but so far not to convert the patient back to "Normal"  but rather to cope with the effects of being LBGT in a society that hates us. I couldn't find anything that indicated it is used to make LBGT people less offensive to the general population.

Since the subject of this is de transition, using CBT to detransition is slightly different and I would like to know how successful Interalia thinks it is. That is to say, how much better is your life living as male with CBT vs living as female? you say you aren't advocating it but you alluded to a number of transfolk who were actively detransitioning. Are they also using CBT?

[Shana A]

Just noticed this topic.

After a year plus RLE, I re-transitioned, however I didn't ever return to being male. I realized that I'm more comfortable as neither gender, although this does have its challenges in daily life. My gender disconnect still exists, but I've made what were necessary choices for my circumstances. It had nothing to do with family, it was more because of inability to continue working in my chosen profession and also lack of health insurance, among other reasons.

Z 

[Tammy Hope]

all this makes me wonder...how much thought is given to the idea that a transgender person has depression alongside GID instead of because they have GID.

and that said depression doesn't necessarily evaporate in the face of transition?

Not saying this is always the case or even mostly, just that it's a reasonable possibility in SOME cases.