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The Tragedy in Tuscon

Started by Julie Marie, January 13, 2011, 11:29:11 AM

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tekla

True, but in this case it would have been almost impossible to kill six people and wound 13 with a knife.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Hermione01

Quote from: tekla on January 16, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
True, but in this case it would have been almost impossible to kill six people and wound 13 with a knife.

I agree. 

Also, regarding people who hunt.  There is no need for semi-automatic weapons for any reason, hunting included.  They were made to kill and maim many people in one swoop.  They were made for war.  When a gunman goes crazy,  they can destroy so many lives quickly without much effort of reloading etc before they are taken down.  :-\

When hunting, you only need to kill one animal with one shot.  Single barrel shotguns are sufficient for hunting.
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tekla

The people I know who hunt prefer a single shot bolt action 30.06 or a shotgun, they are not hunting with 9mm semi-auto pistols, AK-47s or M-16s.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Kitpup

My brother and his dad hunt. They use the cliche hunting rifles and things like that. I think they use bows too. Their house has guns but I've never actually seen one there, they're kept locked up and stored away. My opinion: Guns should be used for hunting game and in war zones. Guns should not be for every civilian with the cash to buy them.
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LordKAT

Quote from: tekla on January 16, 2011, 08:22:17 PM
The people I know who hunt prefer a single shot bolt action 30.06 or a shotgun, they are not hunting with 9mm semi-auto pistols, AK-47s or M-16s.

Good point tho my comment was in answer to removing ALL guns. They have good uses as well as bad ones.
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Cruelladeville

*and in both was the USA had to intervene to bring peace*

Sadly that's not quite correct the Amercans only joined in with WWII after the Japanese (not memeber's of the EU) bombed Pearl Harbour...

And the (white) settlers/immigrants whom entered the area of North America to create the US killed off many millions of indigenous people in the process, stole there land and in the process destroyed a symbiotic red indian way of life and culture that had worked nicely for over two centuries...

The invasion of Iraq killed over 600,000 civilians in the process too....

You Yanks are good at war....


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Kitpup

No no, we're good at getting in war. Not so great at actually finishing it.
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Britney_413

Guns are not the issue here. He could have easily killed as many or more with a large knife. Or he could have driven a car into the crowd or strapped on a homemade bomb. This is not Palin's or the Tea Party's fault but the work of a maniac. The biggest fault lies with the government for not providing security which could have included just a couple of plain clothes cops. The second problem is with American culture. Between poor family upbringings, a lousy public school system, and an entertainment industry that promotes intellectual, moral, and spiritual bankruptcy these human failures don't surprise me. Third is personal responsibility. Since anyone can carry a gun I wonder why no one in the crowd was armed. It was a sad tragedy indeed. It will be a worse tragedy however if people continue to allow their freedoms to be taken away and continue to expect others to do the thinking for them and fail to take responsibility for their safety. I don't like criminals having guns; that's why I carry one.
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heatherrose



Before you (non-specific) scream for the repeal of the 2nd ammendment
you (non-specific) better fully understand why it was put there in the first place.

As ratified by the States:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

A few privately owned squirrel guns killed many Brits.


"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
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Amazon D

Hey back in the 1960's we had state mental hospitals all over the USA but now they are thrown in jails and treated as criminals or they commit crimes and get thrown in jails because they don't have the state hospitals around anymore. I know about them because i was in one 2 times as a young teen of 12 and 13 and well it did help me and they can help others today.Its a shame we spend so much on trials and lawyers and prisons and barely nothing on mental illness or simple confusion due to dysfunctional families which i grew up in.
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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tekla

A well regulated militia is not the same as 'everyone with a hard-on and an inferiority complex about how long it is.'  Nuts with guns are not a militia, nor are they well regulated, they are not regulated at all.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Loughner aside (that is if he is clinically insane as according to early reports), in almost every incident of this type, the assailant(s) "were driven" to commit the crime.  In no way am I saying they are without blame.  What I am saying is an awful lot of them were taunted, harassed, ridiculed and ostracized because they were different.  The same for many who have committed suicide.  They just killed themselves instead.

If we could eliminate every weapon from the face of this earth there will still be people who want to kill people and they will figure a way to do it if it's that important to them.  Sure, guns make it easy.  So do bombs.  But the human mind is creative if the incentive is there.  Wanna take down a high rise?  Fly a jumbo jet into it.  Wanna level a federal building?  Fertilizer and a few other essentials will do the trick.  Maybe the kids who perpetrated the school shootings would have figured out a way to lock their classmates in a room and set the place on fire.  Gasoline is available at your local gas station.  You can buy matches at the grocery store. 

Where there's a will there's a way.  And if you're short on imagination I'm sure there's a movie out there that will get the juices flowing.

But imagine for a minute a society that has zero tolerance for bullying, zero tolerance for discrimination, zero tolerance for prejudice, zero tolerance for hatred.  And this is all taught from birth.  How many of these tragedies would have never even been a glimmer of a thought?
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

How many of these tragedies would have never even been a glimmer of a thought?

Considering that mental health treatments and facilities are woefully underfunded, I'd say most of them.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

QuoteBut we should just not allow sales of the bullets

Sell cars but do not allow gasoline? What planet? How about just having morals and ethics on you own accord? Is there a problem with people to control themselves or is freedom and liberty impossible? Ask yourself that the next time the majority votes against Gay marriage.
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AlexCallende

Quote from: lisagurl on January 17, 2011, 08:07:00 PM
Sell cars but do not allow gasoline? What planet? How about just having morals and ethics on you own accord? Is there a problem with people to control themselves or is freedom and liberty impossible? Ask yourself that the next time the majority votes against Gay marriage.

I think it's a little bit unfair when people compare gun ownership to gay marriage.  For one, does gay marriage lead to people killing other people?   :o
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Britney_413

The militia refers to the people and people can form militias as well. Hence, they would be well-regulated militias or rather self-regulated militias. Even if someone could prove to me that banning firearms (or even restricting them) reduced violent crime, improved safety, and saved lives I would still be against it because I do not believe in trading freedom for security. I believe very strongly in the rights of individuals to pursue life, liberty, and happiness as they see fit so long as they aren't infringing on other individuals' rights to do the same. What I do not support or agree with are concepts that individuals must suppress certain freedoms for the community. I reject concepts such as "individuals must work for the good of the community," "community rights," and "what is good for the community is good for the individual."

Freedom has never been nor is nor ever will be about comfort or security. In fact, it is not comfortable or secure at all which is why many people don't really want freedom. What people want is entitlement. They believe that forcing others to pay for their livelihood is a right, that being physically safe (i.e. not shot to death) is a right, and that they have the right to be comfortable and not have to think at all times. The laws of nature say otherwise. Freedom on the other hand is the right to make a decison--any decision about one's life be it money, safety, happiness, living, spiritual faith, opinions, etc. That is why many don't want freedom because when one is required to make a decision that means that a) one has to think for themselves and b) one has to face the consequences of making the wrong decision. Either you make your own choices in life or someone else makes them for you. In the latter, you have no freedom.

One of the most basic laws in nature is the right to self defense. Every creature on this planet has the ability to do something to protect themselves. Obviously some creatures are better at it than others, stronger than others, tougher, built with better tools, etc. There is no guarantee of results but the right to self-preservation and acquiring the tools and tactics for it is inherent in nature. What makes humans special is our intellectual ability to build tools for that purpose (such as guns).

In Tucson when the massacre happened, a criminal and/or psycho used a tool (a gun) to injure and kill as many people as he could. In the crowd, there were 6 killed, about 14 injured, and dozens more who were unharmed. Every single one of them had the ability to carry and use tools to protect themselves yet failed to do so. Unless I read the news wrong, not a single person in the crowd possessed a firearm. Now I doubt if one or more had possessed guns that there would have been no deaths and no injuries but I'm very sure that the amount of those injured and killed would have been significantly less. These tragedies are terrible but it is a worse tragedy when people not only do not learn from them but go the wrong direction. I understood the concept of self-preservation as a child and so many people (especially adults) to this day don't get it. If you don't want to be injured or killed by an attacker (human or other creature) the solution is not to prevent them from acquiring weapons but to acquire them yourself. It is far easire to arm yourself with a gun than it is to ensure that every human being who may want to harm you cannot find anything to harm you with. One of these methods is an expectation of entitlement, the other one is taking personal responsibility.

You are not entitled to anything in life. Nature does not guarantee you food, housing, or healthcare. You are entitled to one thing only: the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness to the best of your ability. Freedoms cannot be given but only taken away. Nobody is going to tell me I can't possess firearms or other weapons to preserve my life in an attempt to take my life. I will not trust the government to keep me safe from harm at all times nor will I trust that nobody around me will be prevented from harming me. I trust myself to protect myself. I'm not against the concept of community organizing, people helping people, and cooperative efforts. That is what we call a society and the more we have these things the better. What I don't support is when those things trample on the rights of the individual. Period.
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Britney_413

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 17, 2011, 11:27:19 PM
I think it's a little bit unfair when people compare gun ownership to gay marriage.  For one, does gay marriage lead to people killing other people?   :o

Actually it does as much as guns. People are murdered when marriages with spousal abuse get to that level. People are murdered when someone picks up a gun, aims it properly, and pulls the trigger. Neither the marriage nor the gun kills. The person does. Of course, people who use these arguments (such as what is quoted above) demonstrate they don't believe in personal responsibility but rather blaming inanimate objects and indirect factors for the work of individuals.
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tekla

personal responsibility

How does that equate with you trying to avoid bank charges you've accrued and lying about a traffic stop?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 17, 2011, 11:35:23 PMEven if someone could prove to me that banning firearms (or even restricting them) reduced violent crime, improved safety, and saved lives I would still be against it because I do not believe in trading freedom for security.

"He who trades freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin

QuoteFreedom has never been nor is nor ever will be about comfort or security. In fact, it is not comfortable or secure at all which is why many people don't really want freedom.

Freedom is the exact opposite of security.  The only way to be secure is to restrict people's action.  If you want to secure your house from burglars, then it necessitates limiting the ability for a burglar to enter your house.  If the burglar is free to burglarize without consequence, your house is insecure.  If your house is secure, then the burglar must necessarily lose his freedom to pillage what he wants.

Security always necessitates giving up freedom, and freedom always necessitates giving up security.  In order to have security, the actions of someone (or something) must be limited.
"The cake is a lie."
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heatherrose



Quote from: tekla on January 17, 2011, 11:02:23 AMA well regulated militia is not the same as 'everyone with a hard-on and an inferiority complex about how long it is.'
Nuts with guns are not a militia, nor are they well regulated, they are not regulated at all.


So what is the definition of The People?

It is illegal to possess a gun in New York, Washington, D.C. and Mexico
and we all know what fortresses of safety those places are.
The cops always showing up just in time "to protect and serve" and all.



"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
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