The Tragedy in Tuscon

[tekla]

It is illegal to possess a gun in New York, Washington, D.C. and Mexico
and we all know what fortresses of safety those places are.
The cops always showing up just in time "to protect and serve" and all.

And Arizona has the most liberal gun laws in the nation (about the only liberal laws they have), and what good did it do?

[heatherrose]

Is it the general concensus that anyone who possesses a gun,
who is not a member of the military, law enforcement or private security is a raving nut job?

Government has always been effective in regulating morality, as in the 18th amendment.
Otherwise known as the "Organized Crime Subsidy Act of 1919"
I notice how the rate of meth production and use has decreased markedly ever since
it has been federally mandated that Mom can't by cold medicine over the counter.

[tekla]

No, but it's my guess that people who own 9mm handguns with 30 shot magazines and military grade assault rifles are not hunters or sportsmen either.

[heatherrose]

Most likely they are firearms enthusiasts who enjoy making bullseyes
and will never make the headlines or be victimized by a thug with a knife.

[lisagurl]

personal responsibility

How does that equate with you trying to avoid bank charges you've accrued and lying about a traffic stop?

It equates to you know you are wrong and are only digging a deeper hole and burying your self esteem and happiness. You can not lie to yourself and you know when you are not living the life you could. Self punishment is always worst than taking the public kind.

[Britney_413]

In both the Columbine and Virginia Tech tragedies guns were forbidden on those campuses by either law or policy. All that did was legally prevent students and teachers from arming themselves in case of a threat to their lives. Obviously these schools being "gun free zones" did nothing to stop criminals from massacring people. Those criminals did not obey any posted "no weapons" signs either.

In the Safeway tragedy in Tucson, there were no laws or policies prohibiting people from carrying guns. Despite that every member present had a right to bear arms that day nobody chose to exercise their freedoms and therefore were unable to defend themselves.

In the first example, the victims had no rights. In the second example, the victims had rights but failed to utilize them. I'd like to know when this country is going to a) get rid of laws banning people from protecting themselves and b) people start taking responsibility for their safety. Sadly I don't see it happening any time soon.

As to handguns with 30+ round magazines I happen to own one. In fact I own the exact make, model, and magazine capacity of the shooter in Tucson. The difference of course is that I bought the handgun with the standard 15 round magazine to protect me and any loved ones. I bought the 33 round magazine so that when I go to the range to practice my skills I don't have to reload as often making more use of my time. It all comes down to personal choices. I made a choice to own the Glock 19 and 33 rounder for protection and recreation. The shooter made the choice to go kill and injure people. The victims chose not to protect themselves at all. Everyone has made choices here. Choice is the American way. With choice comes consequences. Sadly today's progressives and socialists want to limit choices so that humans can be collectively managed with a safety net of controlled consequences and buffered results. Without a choice you cannot be held accountable for a consequence since you weren't able to make the choice in the first place. This is bliss to many people because they don't have to think and cannot fail. The problem is that without choice there can also be no self-driven personal success either.

Blaming guns is always dodging the issue as the issue is choice. I believe individuals should be rewarded for making the right choices and punished for making the wrong choices. I don't believe in collectively limiting choices of individuals to produce collective results. One of these is American freedom and the American way, the other is the new progressive socialist movement that is ruining this country. No gun has ever killed anyone until an individual made the choice of aiming it and pulling the trigger. But let's not talk about choice, let's just blame the tool used in that choice.

[Byren]

I am surprised at how varied the thread has become...everything from WWII, gun laws, civil liberties, to Columbine.... I suppose so many differing views is a good thing, as despite the media's attempts, it is not a simple issue at all.

It's not guns to blame. Guns are objects...one of many that can be easily gotten, used, and with lethal intent.

It is not the laws. Laws of any kind can and will be broken, for those who they are meant to curtail often consider themselves beyond the law anyway.

It is not our politicians...whether they be singing love songs to their competitors or vile accusations. That particular show has remained unchanged since the dawn of civilization..only the stage has changed. "Et tu, Brute?"

It is our culture itself that is to blame...it is as much a blessing as a curse. Freedom is a wonderful thing...freedom of speech...freedom of thought...freedom of religion... However, the interpretation of these freedoms...the INTENT behind them...has begun to fade into the ether. Our education system is slowly failing from lack of funding and a deteriorating structure. Kids are desensitized to violence and language at earlier and earlier ages. The social skills of the nation have even been studied and shown to have degenerated. 
What I am trying to say is that the causes of acts of terrible violence like this cannot be rooted out like a weed from a daisy patch. There is no 'easy' solution. It would require an overhaul of our culture. I believe this is the flip-side...the dark side, if you will, of our freedoms. Wherever there is freedom it will be abused. Wherever there are laws they will be broken.
The only solution I can see is this...we must look hard at ourselves...our friends...our families...our children...and affect what we can. Like a raindrop in a pond, the ripples will eventually be felt on all shores.

I live in Tucson. I used to shop at the grocery store the tragedy took place in front of. The Federal Judge, Mr. Roll, shopped in the store where I work the night before he was killed. Every day I see the flowers and the mourners gathered at the street corner...some in anger, some in grief. It is, however, heartening to see the way the community has shown its support for the victims. Flags are half-mast, stores all over have put up signs with their messages of support....
I am proud of my city.

I feel like I'm babbling, so I'll end here.

May the Gods and Ancestors bless you all.

~Byren

[Amazon D]

In both the Columbine and Virginia Tech tragedies guns were forbidden on those campuses by either law or policy. All that did was legally prevent students and teachers from arming themselves in case of a threat to their lives. Obviously these schools being "gun free zones" did nothing to stop criminals from massacring people. Those criminals did not obey any posted "no weapons" signs either.

In the Safeway tragedy in Tucson, there were no laws or policies prohibiting people from carrying guns. Despite that every member present had a right to bear arms that day nobody chose to exercise their freedoms and therefore were unable to defend themselves.

In the first example, the victims had no rights. In the second example, the victims had rights but failed to utilize them. I'd like to know when this country is going to a) get rid of laws banning people from protecting themselves and b) people start taking responsibility for their safety. Sadly I don't see it happening any time soon.

As to handguns with 30+ round magazines I happen to own one. In fact I own the exact make, model, and magazine capacity of the shooter in Tucson. The difference of course is that I bought the handgun with the standard 15 round magazine to protect me and any loved ones. I bought the 33 round magazine so that when I go to the range to practice my skills I don't have to reload as often making more use of my time. It all comes down to personal choices. I made a choice to own the Glock 19 and 33 rounder for protection and recreation. The shooter made the choice to go kill and injure people. The victims chose not to protect themselves at all. Everyone has made choices here. Choice is the American way. With choice comes consequences. Sadly today's progressives and socialists want to limit choices so that humans can be collectively managed with a safety net of controlled consequences and buffered results. Without a choice you cannot be held accountable for a consequence since you weren't able to make the choice in the first place. This is bliss to many people because they don't have to think and cannot fail. The problem is that without choice there can also be no self-driven personal success either.

Blaming guns is always dodging the issue as the issue is choice. I believe individuals should be rewarded for making the right choices and punished for making the wrong choices. I don't believe in collectively limiting choices of individuals to produce collective results. One of these is American freedom and the American way, the other is the new progressive socialist movement that is ruining this country. No gun has ever killed anyone until an individual made the choice of aiming it and pulling the trigger. But let's not talk about choice, let's just blame the tool used in that choice.

Living now in the country i can better understand your response. When i lived in the suburbs i wanted a peaceful world even at the cost of not having total freedom. People in the suburbs and city seem to have a much easier life and so they can't let out their frustrations doing hard labor on a daily basis unlike those in the country. I think there is a physical connection to this issue that the psychologist are not examining. Here we have many farmers and their children working very hard and they don't think twice about it. If one lived in the suburbs or city they would see many who never do hard work yet make lots of money and so that may affect their mental outlook on life. Its a reason the amish try to keep their children working at home verses going out to work and if they do go out to jobs they do it as a team and stay away from outsiders. I learned about another group that did the same they are the twelvetribes.org and they also go out to work as a team and do not allow newspapers TV radio or computers into their life, except for business. They are some very decent people and even though they don't hunt they do get deer dropped off and they butcher many deer and animals they raise. Society has gone off kilter with some people making way too much money and they don't even produce a product. Yes there will always be many more shootings in the citys and suburbs due to people being jelous or angry or confused as compared to those in the country who many have guns right behind their front doors. Yes there are a few country people who go off kilter yet most do not. I guess the idea of choice has to be considered depending on the community one lives. There are too many wild factors with the mentality of suburban and city people verses country people. Oh and again yes the amish hunt and as far as i know only one amish person has murdered another and it was his wife and he did have mental problems and he recently took his own life just a few days ago. He did serve his time though and was shunned by the amish because he didn't want to stay in the amish run mental facility they created to deal with their own people.

[Julie Marie]

In the Safeway tragedy in Tucson, there were no laws or policies prohibiting people from carrying guns. Despite that every member present had a right to bear arms that day nobody chose to exercise their freedoms and therefore were unable to defend themselves.

There was a guy a few stores down from the shooting who was armed. When he heard the shots he rushed out of the store with his hand on the pistol in his jacket, ready to take out the shooter.  He saw a man with a gun and immediately identified him as the shooter and planned to fire. The man with the gun had just taken it from Loughner.  Thankfully the other guy realized what was happening and removed his hand from his pistol and joined in to help subdue Loughner.  That guy wasn't trained or certified in the handling of a gun.  He almost killed an innocent man.  This happened in just a few seconds.

Imagine a crowd filled with unskilled, untrained, armed citizens emotionally reacting to the moment.  How many other innocent people would have been killed or wounded?  The image that comes to mind is the shootout at the OK Corral. 

I'm an Army trained marksman.  And because of what I learned in my training, I don't even own a gun.  Since I don't hunt the only reason to own a gun would be for protection but I'm not crisis trained.  Few gun owners are.  And in that moment when you want to use a gun for your protection, are you sufficiently trained so that you won't wound or kill innocent people?  That's the question I asked myself and the answer is no.  I know that because of my training.

Shooting at a target is one thing.  Pulling a gun out when your emotions are through the roof, deciding who is the target, aiming it and firing and hitting only the target, is quite another.

[VeryGnawty]

In both the Columbine and Virginia Tech tragedies guns were forbidden on those campuses by either law or policy. All that did was legally prevent students and teachers from arming themselves in case of a threat to their lives. Obviously these schools being "gun free zones" did nothing to stop criminals from massacring people. Those criminals did not obey any posted "no weapons" signs either.

I've said it once and I'll say it a thousand times:  laws only affect people who follow the law.  You can't stop criminals by passing laws.  Criminals are stopped by the ability to ENFORCE a law.

A law banning the possession of guns by all people at all times is impossible to enforce.  It would take too much money to locate every type of projectile weapon that someone could be carrying at any given moment.  The idea that you can regulate the possession of guns by passing laws is as much of a pipe dream as the idea that you can stop people from doing drugs by making drugs illegal.

And I'm sure we all recognize how effective the "war on drugs" has been at stopping the trade of drugs.  A war on guns would be almost as much of a waste of taxpayer money.

I'm an Army trained marksman.  And because of what I learned in my training, I don't even own a gun.  Since I don't hunt the only reason to own a gun would be for protection but I'm not crisis trained.  Few gun owners are.  And in that moment when you want to use a gun for your protection, are you sufficiently trained so that you won't wound or kill innocent people?

That's precisely the reason I don't own a gun.  I don't want to spend the time necessary to become an expert marksman, and I don't trust that I'd be able to effectively use a gun in a situation that called for it.  Identifying terrorist from hostage can sometimes be difficult.  That's why SWAT teams have such rigorous training.

I'd rather learn grappling techniques and hope that I can get close enough to the terrorist to wrestle the gun out of his hands.  Even then, I'd only want to try it if I could be reasonably certain that nobody else but me or the terrorist would be injured in the process.

[lisagurl]

It is our culture itself that is to blame...it is as much a blessing as a curse.

You mean the culture that tells us we can grow forever? The one that tells us to compete and there are no losers? You mean the culture that uses laws to give us a false feeling of security? You mean the culture that tells us education and technology will solve all our problems? You mean the culture that gives us drugs to hide the symptoms? You mean the educators, media, politicians, corporations and medical profession that use Skinner/Pavlov operant conditioning to control our behavior? You mean the the same culture that leads you believe you can buy happiness and quantity is better than quality? You mean the same culture that worships efficiency more than life?

Fact is, we have the freedom to live better, but most are too lazy to fight the system and be responsible enough to find it.

[Britney_413]

One of the first things I learned about guns was "know your target and what is beyond it." Now I never heard the details about the citizen you described but if what you say is true then the individual was not currently on the scene to begin with. If he was several stores down then he had to be several hundred feet from the crisis. That makes my original point still stand that nobody who was actually at the scene was armed. 500 feet from a crime scene is not at the scene.

In any case, it still comes down to personal responsibility. Not only do you have the personal responsibility to protect yourself you also have the personal responsibility to learn how to do it safely and responsibly. With guns that means you don't draw and aim until the threat is confirmed and you don't fire until you have a clear shot. Either way you spin it it is still a personal responsibility issue.

[Cruelladeville]

This is an interesting Podcast on the subject....

http://www.kunstlercast.com/

KunstlerCast #140: Violent Rhetoric

Click and play....

[Julie Marie]

Now I never heard the details about the citizen you described but if what you say is true then the individual was not currently on the scene to begin with. If he was several stores down then he had to be several hundred feet from the crisis. That makes my original point still stand that nobody who was actually at the scene was armed. 500 feet from a crime scene is not at the scene.

What we know is no one at the scene pulled a gun and fired it.  We do not know if anyone was carrying a gun or not.  As far as the guy I was talking about, the Walgreens he was walking out of is right next door to Safeway.  Here's his story: