Male lesbian concept / problem with body/facial hair / post-30yo-masculinization

[ativan]

How about just not replying then?  You aren't answering the OP's question, so why bother posting?  If that is the term that the OP wants to use, that's their business, not yours.  There's no reason to go out of your way to be snotty.  That last sentence was absolutely unnecessary.
And violet_owl, I'm sorry, but I don't know much about hair removal.  A couple posts on this thread just got under my skin.  Pay no mind to the term police.  I'll get off my soapbox now.
Now back to the OP's original question...

This,Really.....I think I counted 6 MTF orFTM that kept this stupid discussion going in Androygyne Talk. It seems that more often than not that when some stupid argueing is going on here that that is generally the case. By that I mean putting down, making negative comments, etc. If You don't like what the topics or discussions here in the Androgyne section, why do you bother to read them and then try to 'correct' the discussion?
   If You don't understand what it is to be Androgyne, why not just read and possibly learn what it is about. Enough of the comments from MTF and FTM are offensive in their nature, yet when an Androgyne tries to explain their position, You try to 'educate' us about who we are.

   I end up staying away from Susans for days, and refrain from making comments and joining into Androgyne discusions for this very reason. Vexing....learn to mind your own business. If you or anyone else wishes to sidetrack the threads here into your own agenda, start a discussion about it somewhere else, or just start another thread. The sometimes militant attitude from some (and I only mean some) that do not belong here shouldn't have to be put up with.

   I come here for discussions that deal with Androgynes. I get very tired of it turning into another discussion by MTF and/or FTM.  And thats not to say that your questions and comments are not appreciated, it's the arguing with an Androgynes point of view.
   I've been coming here for a little over a year now. I've grown to really like the intelligence, sense of humor, compassion, dedication and generosity of sympathy that is always brought to the discussions by so many from everywhere here at Susans. It's what keeps me coming back. It's something that I can always look forward to here.

I'd really like it to stay that way, because so many of you feel like family and I love you all for that.
If I listed everyone that I feel that way about, it would be far longer than what I just wrote...

[Jaimey]

Amen, atvian. 

As androgynes, we often have to play with terms until we figure out what fits us best.  It's a process and we should be encouraging violet_owl in their search.  Perhaps, from what I've read anyway, the term "male-bodied lesbian" would be a better fit, specifically referring to this bit:

I would clearly like to turn into a woman and then would feel attracted to women. As a man,
I have difficulties with physical interaction with women *because I often do not like the idea of the
woman feeling attracted to me as a man* - I'd prefer her to be attracted to me as a woman.
I don't have too much problems with my male body as long as I can keep it sufficiently androgynous,
and as long as I know the woman is attracted to androgynity.

That, or perhaps, a male-bodied, female-identified androgyne who happens to be gay.  Again, do whatever it is you need to find yourself, violet_owl.  And honestly, when it comes down to it, the labels are only there to help us understand ourselves and each other.  They're a tool and nothing more. 

...and here I told myself I wouldn't respond again.  Sorry.  I hope you can find a solution for the hair situation.

[Eva Marie]

I've come to realize that as an androgyne my advice or experience is not necessarily relevant (or even wanted) on the other sections of the board because my situation is not the same - i'm not walking the same walk.

That's a totally fair attitude, and I understand and respect why people feel this way. It's hard to take advice or to respect someone that's not living the same situation, and has not gone through the same difficulties. So i now read those sections of the board but rarely comment anymore. I respect the prevailing viewpoint.

But - it's gotta work both ways. Is it fair for people that are not walking our walk to come into the androgyne forum and tell us how we should feel and what we should say? When the same courtesy is NOT extended to us?

Jaimey is right - as androgynes our walk is diffferent, and we spend a fair amount of time trying on new terms and discovering what fits and what does not fit. I think that violet_owl is just going through that process. I also think that this situation could have been handled better.

Civil discourse is always welcome here, of course.

[Rock_chick]

Apologies for treading on any toes.

[Jaimey]

Apologies for treading on any toes.

I'm probably not really the person who should say this (since I wasn't all that involved), but your apology is very much appreciated (even more so because you aren't the one who really needs to do it...at least I don't remember your post being all that volatile). 

[ativan]

Helena, I'm the one who should and should've by now. An apology from you isn't needed. I don't think anything that you said or anyone who is on this thread need to apologize, with the exception of myself. And it wasn't that long ago that you graced us with very regular comments and joy around here. I miss you hanging around. I miss Jeenyrated and you going back and forth over things in a way that made them fun and more important because of it.

I was just going through the list of members here from the most posts on down. Out of twenty pages, it averaged I suppose half a dozen people I recognize per page. By that I mean I have at the very least read comments and opinions. I didn't see a single name that I had anything truly bad to say anything about. That's not to say there wasn't times, but I don't recall any that were signicant enough to remember. I just know they are all good people, and in the long run are not going to make everyone happy all the time. But they always try. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. We should all know that here, as tough as it is.

I unleased a torrent of frustration in a truly angry moment. I've wanted to go back and just delete it, but that won't change anything. I said it, I'm owning up to it, and it wasn't by any means a proper way to respond to anyone here.

I'm sorry I haven't said anything sooner, I just couldn't quite put together the words in my head so they would come out the way I've been thinking about this whole thing.

I said something along the lines of 'if you don't belong here', that has been at the top of my list of how do I say what I mean.
   Everyone belongs here and everywhere else on here. period. That is apology 1.
Apology 2 is making over the top accusations that MTF and FTM take over this area. Yeah, sometimes a majority participating are just that, but it is never to the exclusion of any of the Androgynes here. I made it sound that way. yeah that was #2.
Yes I take some of the comments personally as an Androgyne, but that is no reason to not comment and just stew about it, which I have done. If someone here can explain it so that it is an understanding, which happens a lot, then no harm done and somebody walks away knowing a little more. I made a rant about it, I apologize, thats 3.

Helena, if you look at the thread, you were the only one who threw out an apology. That's because I think the apology is one that has to come from me.

#4, the last one here. For Everyone here, staff included (where would we be without them) I apologize, I am sorry for my rude and unnecessary comments.

I just hope that this gets to all who need to hear this from me.

The disclaimer I threw in at the bottom of my rant stands. and the list of all of you who have made a difference in my yr here is still longer than what I just wrote.

Thanks for at the least, just reading this far...
Ativan

[Jaimey]

I do want to say that I think that the frustration you expressed, atvian, as been expressed by others as well and it isn't wrong to feel that way, other than to say that one or two people often ruin it for everyone, case in point: this thread. 

The one thing we all need to remember is that it is our jobs to support each other on our journeys.  I think that both you, atvian, and Helena have apologized for something that neither of you really contributed to and that you both have a maturity that I and others lack. 

I really do love the unicorn forest. 

[CaitJ]

I've removed the Androgyne area from my visible list of forums.
You'll never hear from me again.
I don't expect the same courtesy in return, of course.

[ativan]

Well....I'm sorry you were made to feel that is necessary.
If I don't hear from you here, then I will read your comments as I have in the past in other areas. You do make some well put opinions and information out there.
This thread was just a bad day, I accept it that way.
Here's my personal apology. I did point you out and made a point of singling you out.
It was wrong and I'm sorry for that.

Just like I said, I've been silent trying to put the words together to apologize and that includes you personally. Takes me awhile sometimes.
So check in here in the Unicorn Forest if you'd like. Its hard for some of us here, there isn't any clear cut definitions, and I'm afraid that it makes it even more frustrating to listen to it, especially if you are not of the walk that we walk.

I wouldn't mind hearing from you here, it's usually confusing for us too. I hope we can keep arguments out of discussions, they don't seem to work well with Androgynes, and I will try not to argue with you.

Ativan

[ativan]

one or two people often ruin it for everyone, case in point: this thread. 

I really do love the unicorn forest. 

I was one of the one or two people.

And I to love the unicorn forest, it can often be my safety net, just to come here and listen. Onward! 

[Rock_chick]

And it wasn't that long ago that you graced us with very regular comments and joy around here. I miss you hanging around. I miss Jeenyrated and you going back and forth over things in a way that made them fun and more important because of it.

Aww, thank you...I really do remember those days quite fondly. It's been a really interesting journey for me when I started out I was pretty much an accidental androgyne...I didn't want to be male and thought I could never be female and as a result didn't feel like either. I remember leaving the house in april last year with a face full of stubble and a bra on and feeling happy when i confused the hell out of some girl

Now it's a case of even with three days growth (it needs to grow out for electrolysis ) I'll still get called miss or love. I do miss hanging out in here cause you guys are some of the best, but as I've progressed on my journey I've felt more and more like a bit of an interloper...probably because as I've grown into who I should always have been i've moved further away from the middle ground of the gender spectrum towards the binary. That actually came as a surprise, i thought i'd just pivot round the middle ground a bit, but i think as i did that someone must have coated the floor in a lo-friction coating because i've slid a lot further from the centre than i thought i would. Hell I thought i'd never been seen dead in a dress, but I absolutely adore them now...suitably alternative, emo or rockerbilly of course

But thank you, reading that just made my day.

[Virginia]

As one of the quieter unicorns in the forest, I have sat by the sidelines biting my tongue since last Saturday. I have left other forums for this exact same reason. And one for the home team puts a big ol smile on my face.

[CaitJ]

It was wrong and I'm sorry for that.

Then if you would be so kind, ask for the point of negative reputation you bestowed on me - while you were having a bad day - to be removed. 

[ativan]

I had no idea I could do that, I thought about throwing in an applaud, but that doesn't take it away. It's been back there in the tangled mess of my mind, and yes, I need to get that done.
I'm going to look into it right now.
I would also like the staff to reconsider some of their warning, also.

[ativan]

OK Vexing, it is done.

I was only having a thread gone to hell moment, not so much a bad day.
I will assume the same for you?

Ativan

[Kinkly]

The androgyne part of this forum often has discussions about labels you are not the only person who has used the term "Male Lesbian"  normally there is no issue with the term as long as you can explain it.  Before I had accepted my gender difference I told a number of people that I felt more like a Lesbian then a straight man" I have used a number of terms that people have said "you can't use that" but on this forum most people are fairly happy leting you identify how ever you feel right but I very rarely post outside the Androgyne areas because people outside don't accept and understand us

[crazyandro]

Jeez, people.  Vicious.  You know, there are only so many transpeople in the world.  I kinda feel like we should be supporting each other instead of ripping each other's heads off.

[Adabelle]

This thread just will. not. die. will it?

[ativan]

Probably not. I apologized.  just to be civil and do the right thing.

I'm still waiting for the same from her. She claims to have hidden this board from her and will never come back, but I seriously don't think that is competely true.

I left the door wide open. It will stay that way. In effect, no this thread isn't going to die.

I hope it doesn't.

I think it also came down to the time for non-binaries to speak out about how binaries can make hurtful and contradicting statements in this section.

What I stated in my apologies stands as I wrote them.

Jaimey has started a very good topic addressing issues about this thread. I hope that it takes off and the air can be cleared here in the forest.

Always have a better day...

[rejennyrated]

  Ahem... I don't really think we should be attacking Vexing - as you may have notice she hasn't been around for some days now, not because she has been banned, but because she has decided to take a break of her own volition. I believe she has asked for her account to be deleted but don't quote me on that. I dare say she will be back in due course, but until then please lets just try to put this one to bed.  Thanks folks