The Sad tragedy of those living Stealth. Do our greatest successes live in fear?

[espo]

I'm not transgender but I'm total stealth with the exception of family members who I'm not in contact with other then bumping into them now and then. I'm stealth for a lot of reasons most important one being I don't want another human to know what I am, outside of the internet, but in r/l no way.  I can understand why it would benefit others if I was 'out there' showing the world an IS person is a living breathing normal human being just like the gay community has done over the years and we can see how society has more or less accepted them as normal people and not the deviants or freaks that they were accused of generations ago.  So I can see Ariel's point clearly but I agree with everyone who says its my life and I'll share what I want to share and keep private what I want to keep private.  Its another long road but I can see one or two generations from now TG will be openly accepted no problem.

[espo]

About me not being transgender, after reading the discussion Juliet started , maybe I am I don't know.  hahahaha
But I haven't transitioned so I don't how I could be, but whatever.

[Izumi]

I have read an a lot of comments and thought i should post.  I am currently stealth, however my family knows, and my old friends which were truly trustworthy and they tell no one. 

Living in stealth doesn't mean you stop helping the community.  Its like two divisions of a military branch, the main infantry force and special/covert ops.  You can both do your part to promote acceptance of TS as just another thing you deal with when your born. 

Here is an example: 
After watching the oprah network and saw the documentary on TS persons by Lisa Ling, the conversation in the lunchroom was this topic.  One girl believed it was a choice, so i innocently placed facts before her that stated otherwise, not using myself as references but other materials i had read, and did it in a fashion that my didn't really raise an eyebrow in my direction, i was simply adding information to the whole, by the time i was finished all women at lunch were in agreement it was not a choice. 

People are more trusting if they don't think your an outsider, and if i was openly TS would my comments had been taken to heart? or would they have assumed i was bias or whatever or simply not wanting to hear them?  there are many possibilities but that method hurt no one and still made a positive change. 

Also, i don't know how many stories i have heard of TS women who meet straight guys and are instantly rejected no matter how good they look because they tell them right away they are TS, and how many stories of straight men that have married TS women saying if she had told me up front, i wouldn't have even dated her. 

I just want this comment to ring out:

Living in stealth doesn't mean you are hiding who you are from anyone, it means you simply don't let having TS overshadow who you are and what you accomplish.  When we say we are TS women or men, we are giving the word TS equal footing with the word woman and man, saying we are both a woman/man and TS... However, i am not a TS woman, I am a woman that simply has TS.  I am a woman first and foremost and my struggles and accomplishments in life are in spite of me living with TS which gives me a disadvantage in society.

[gennee]

Wow, this is an interesting post so here's my two cents worth. Everyone has their reason to be stealth and I respect that. The only people who know that I'm trans are my wife, son, his girlfriend, a few friends, and a couple of folks outside my circle. My brother and sister don't know because I don't feel the need to share this with them.

The main point is when I'm out to people, I'm out. Nothing can make me go back in the closet. I don't worry what others think or say. I'm living my life.


Gennee

[FairyGirl]

As a woman formerly afflicted with the transsexual medical condition, I came to view it as a debilitating disease, although now thankfully cured.  As such, I see no need to go around putting qualifiers on myself as being other, more, or less than just a woman.  I could say, well, any "trans" term no longer applies to me in any case, but thanks to the visibility of certain elements as has been mentioned, the majority of the unenlightened public-at-large draw no such fine distinction.  I live my life as the woman I am, call it stealth if you like. Other than coming here to share my experiences with others, my doctor and a couple close friends know, but that's the extent of my being "out" and is likely to become even less so as time goes on.  You want sad? Sad was me before I was cured,  not after.

I know there are many of us, pre-op and post-op alike, who do not care to be singled out because of the fact we were born with a particularly insidious birth defect.  The whole point, to me, of paying all this money and going through all this pain to fully transition was to move forward into a happy life freed specifically from the pains, miseries, and heartaches of the past that were a direct result of the aforementioned disease.  The point wasn't to adopt being transsexual as a permanent alternative lifestyle.

I must say I don't align myself with those more rabidly militant activists who insist on turning the whole gender identity issue into some kind of culture war in yet another tired version of "us" vs. "them", with all the associated endless, mean-spirited, sniping and in-fighting, remarkably as divisive as this thread was sure to be when it was posted.  But neither do I care to be associated in the eyes of the general public with certain fetishist elements who quite frankly creep me out. Fear has little to do with it.

If someone wants to identify as TS/TG, or be out and proud and in everyone's face with it, or even if they only want to quietly slip on a pair of the wife's panties over the weekend to get more in touch with their feminine sides, then hey, that's their privilege and their right and I wholeheartedly support that right.  But I shouldn't have to be automatically expected, because of my medical history or because I do support that right, to feel somehow obliged to be permanently associated with a disease I've already been cured of.

[vanna]

Yes I tend to agree to that too.

I have an ilness now I am cured and the only people to know are those who knew me before

It is not stealth for me just being a Woman and living my life

[Sarah B]

This discussion and others like it have been going on for ages.  Just recently a thread has been resurrected called Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?.  Which is the same topic we are discussing now.

It will be interesting to go through this particular thread and see what others have written before us.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Juliet]

About me not being transgender, after reading the discussion Juliet started , maybe I am I don't know.  hahahaha
But I haven't transitioned so I don't how I could be, but whatever.

LOL
Apparently my dog is transgender according to that discussion. 

[From_Ariel]

This discussion and others like it have been going on for ages.  Just recently a thread has been resurrected called Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?.  Which is the same topic we are discussing now.

It will be interesting to go through this particular thread and see what others have written before us.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Wow sarah I found that thread you listed to be very interesting... Yes it definitely mirrors this one unintentionally lol. A true standalone complex. It seems  the originator of that thread almost exactly mirrored my thoughts which I find interesting... I actually quote that post here cuase it mirrors my concerns and presents a first hand account of the things I describe happening. Those that can pass disappear into society and thereby the rest of us are left to fend for our own...

I was at a TS support meeting last Sunday.  A girl there who is living in stealth was bothered by her stealth status.  She described herself as an activist but found that she had recently adopted a stealth lifestyle because she feared the reaction of her coworkers.  And this was becoming a big problem for her.  She said she never imagined she'd choose stealth over helping us achieve social progress.  That she was doing just this was weighing heavily on her mind.   

When I began therapy my therapist told me of this group.  She had started the group but had since handed it to an active TS to head it up.  But she told me something that I vividly remember.

When I started the group there were many girls there who passed easily.  Some I thought were natal females and was thinking of asking them to leave as this was intended to be a TS only support group.  I was glad I didn't because, to my surprise, they were transsexual.  What saddened me was when these ladies started to leave the group.  The reason they cited was they wanted to live in stealth and didn't want to be associated with being a transsexual.  This created a problem because the girls remaining in the group badly needed those women to stay involved so they could gain learn from their experience.

I can see her point.  While we are coming out and into public we need support and encouragement.  Much of that comes from those who have successfully transitioned.  But if those who can live in stealth remain invisible, where will that support come from?  If they remain in stealth, society will never know how many of us there are out there and that we are just normal everyday people.  Instead they will see the Jerry Springer kind of crap that has hurt our efforts so badly.

I'm not an active activist but I do consider myself a passive activist.  I won't go out and start groups or volunteer to do all kinds of work to help promote the cause.  That's not in my personality.  But when I'm asked I will gladly present to them whatever they need to know to help them understand we are just normal people trying to find happiness during our time here on earth. 

If I am out in public doing everyday things, I won't go up to everyone I see and tell them I'm trans.  But if I see them look at me funny I will make a point of smiling politely and even saying hi if the situation presents itself.  I feel I have an obligation to the next generation to do at least that.  It's not much but at least it's something.  But if I ever pass completely I hope I never go stealth.  That would be like turning my back on all those who helped me get where I am and all those who are hoping for a better life.

Maybe we need a term for it... I think I got one... "Passing into Stealth"

• If everyone that could go stealth is going there and won't break from stealth (for whatever reason) how can we ever expect to stand up for our own rights?
• How can we make it so that future generations don't have to suffer as much as we did?
• Should it be left only to the "activists" everyone speaks of, to fix everything?
• When will we all say enough is enough?
• When will we not need to be stealth anymore if everyone is in stealth?
• Could we have already fixed things had we never had people in stealth?

• Or should we content ourselves that merely seamlessly becoming a part of a society that discriminates against people like us is okay?
• Do we then become part of the problem by living stealth in this society and allowing others to hurt the next generation? Is being stealth selfish?
• Are we sacrificing future generations for our own safety?

HEY ARIEL  if your so into being out where is your picture for this site?

I am basically stealth (legally) too but i have also camped out at the US capital for 23 days and nights for trans inclusion in ENDA in may 2002 and i had congressional staffers ask me why i was there trying to help THOSE PEOPLE  i said because i am one of them and they said OH ..

being out everywhere is sticking your face in other peoples business and we just need acceptence and not special treatment.

Umm you do realize that you can't customize your pics till you have 15 posts right???
Though tbh for forums I normally use this as my forum post avatar..


I am not afraid to show my face however even if the pic is 5+ years old and me with unplucked eyebrows....

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=779320248
http://www.myspace.com/from_ariel
<-- Jump to 3min 34sec to hear my call.

^ Yeah most definitely NOT Stealth...

IMHO I pass far better now I need newer pictures that was early in my transition. I started transition about 6-8 years ago now.

Transition in oct 03, HRT in oct of '04 and Fulltime on the job in Mar of '06 that pic is roughly from '06

[Izumi]

i really dont like the assumption that just because your stealth you do nothing to advance TS rights.  I do plenty influencing those around me in subtle ways and help those people that needed it anonymously without the rest of the world needing to know i am have been born with TS as well.  I have been asked on many occasions to talk with people thinking they are TS and could use advice or guidance, just because i don't do it publicly advertising i am TS doesn't mean i am not useful,  I do my part. 

Living with TS and transitioning is not my goal in life, nor is progressing any agenda although i do influence people within my circles, i want my own life, and people knowing i was born TS would complicate that life and make my future goals a little more difficult to reach then they need to be.

[vanna]

Goodness

That was so profound and how real opinions are changed thank you Valerie.

I too transitioned in an incredile male enviroment who cared little for binary this or that or anything remotely mentioned in this site

I turned opinions and now even the most masculine of them call me miss, her or by name even though they all know my past

That to me is doing my part, they see a Woman just living her life

[bojangles]

Shouldn't we be able to stand up for our rights?

Yes.  So do those who choose to live stealth.
As has been said, it's not anybody else's business. I don't think it's anybody else's place to question the choices of others or to assume they know the reasons.

[From_Ariel]

I'm sorry i understand what others are saying and yet I don't get the comments of "I've done my part now I can live free"

IMHO as long as there is a need in this society to be stealth we are not ever free.
As long as others around us are still suffering we are not free.
Stealth to me just seems to be trading one cage for another.

As long as our brothers and sisters still suffer and this is treated as anything different then a medical condition one we DID NOT choose one that needs proper research and treatment, I will still cry for the next generation's pain. I know that we are second class citizens and am not going to try and assimilate into a society that thinks elsewise. No thank you. I will not pretend to be one of them just to avoid mis-treatment.

Cause seeing how society treats us makes me sick. The last thing I want is to be hiding amongst wolves when I know my fellow sheep are being eaten for dinner tonight.

I'm not an activist either cause I don't really have the means or ability but I do try to share and get others to think.

I hope this discussion continues to evolve and create dialog. Some seem to be very, very heated about their reasons for their choices. I suppose that is only natural.

I dream of a day when we need to fear someone finding out we're trans no more then to fear someone finding out we're Diabetic. I'm just not sure how we will ever get there with so many in deep stealth. I don't think anyone on this site could be fully called deep stealth cause obviously they are still contributing in some way.

I wonder though. I feel the same powerlessness. I feel that our numbers are too small to change things for all of us. Thing is the more I look at updated reviews of studies that seems to indicate we may be as common as 1 in 2500 to 1 in 500 then I have to say to myself "That is not a small number". Where are they? Are they in stealth? Are we more powerful then even we know because some of us are so well hidden even other trans people don't know?

[FairyGirl]

it's really a non-issue, and one has to wonder if your energies wouldn't be better spent sharing your knowledge and experience with those currently in transition, which I have done and will continue to do as the opportunities arise, rather than browbeating those of us who have finished it and moved on. You seem to think that we are hiding something, and we're not. I don't see in any way my life would be any different or that I would disclose personal medical information any more so than I do now if there were no such thing as "stealth". From my point of view, there already isn't any such thing.

Your above list contains several leading questions based on preconceived assumptions that may belong solely to you. It's a bit like asking, "and how long have you been beating your wife?" There is no good answer that satisfies the premise of the question that doesn't fall into the trap of being forced to agree with the possibly erroneous base assumptions. The list fails because it already contains it's own foregone conclusions. Any refutation, as has been already excellently given by Valerie, Izumi, and others, will be rejected because it doesn't fit into this paradigm.

It's commendable that you want to help those around you that are going through the same trials in life as you are. But there are others ways than those you so vehemently espouse here, and I can't see that this kind of rhetoric solves any real problems; It just seems to create more divisiveness. I sincerely wish you good luck in your endeavors.

Valerie I loved your answer!

[Northern Jane]

I'm sorry i understand what others are saying and yet I don't get the comments of "I've done my part now I can live free"

IMHO as long as there is a need in this society to be stealth we are not ever free.
As long as others around us are still suffering we are not free.
Stealth to me just seems to be trading one cage for another.

And just HOW does someone coming out of stealth help others?

Back in the 1970s when SRS first became available, it was PRECISELY the fact that post-ops vanished that PROVED the effectiveness of medical treatment, that the statement "I am a woman trapped in a man's body" was true in that these women just vanished into mainstream society without causing a ripple! To stand up and say "I have a transsexual medical history" accomplishes nothing and may even have the effect of undermining the presumption that transsexualism can be cured because it implies "I am not a woman". Think about it!

[From_Ariel]

No one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

My entire point is many of our most successful and pretty and most able to live normal lives are hidden form both society and our community and how can we ever expect to be recognized when we are invisible to the world and public at large.

I can't make it more clear then that I don't know how? This is not a judgement nor is it saying it's their FUALT! I have said over and over I UNDERSTAND why people go into stealth, I don't blame them. But in the end we are an invisible population of sufferers and today another child was born likely that will suffer everything we did. If they are lucky enough to be pretty and passable then they might go stealth too.

I just want a world where stealth is no more necessary then hiding that your nearsighted or diabetic or any other congenital medical condition. I just wonder if everyone is in stealth and wont come out how we will ever get to that day?

Obviously people take offense they feel I'm blaming people in stealth. I am not, I have said like a hundred times I blame society stealth should not be necessary but sadly it is.


I'm sad and I'm depressed and Fairy I do try to help. I admin on, transgenderbeauty, I offer people support in chat and I try to change things. Sadly I can't even fix myself. I will likely NEVER afford surgery for reasons I won't get into here. I will never pass 100% I will never be able to be stealth if I wanted to. I will however be taking all the slings and arrows every-time I walk down the street thrown by a society that doesn't understand us.

I won't post anymore cuase obviously people are taking it in the wrong light. I will however read what others feel and say. Clearly people think I'm blaming them or deomonizing them and I'm not. I would never want to. If you really think I am then obviously I just suck at this and shouldn't try to express myself cause that wasn't my intention.

Bye.

[Rabbit]

And just HOW does someone coming out of stealth help others?

The same way that gay rights moved forward as they began coming out more and more. It is a lot easier to label a group of people perverts and deviants when you believe you don't actually have any around you. But when you discover that they are people you have known and seen your entire life and they have simply been hiding and scared... things start to move forward.

[Saskia]

I agree that the thread title is a wrong and misleading. Speaking personally as a person who has lived in 'Stealth' for 20 odd years, to me this is certainly NOT a tragedy nor do I live in fear. Were I 'out and proud' then I certainly wouldn't have the career in IT Management that I have nor would I have the same relationships with friends and colleagues that I enjoy today. To me being able to to go to work, go shopping and do all the other things ordinary women do unhindered is a pleasure, normal and certainly isn't tragic.
The sad fact is that being different from society in general marks you out and can often be dangerous as we see and hear so often here or in the press.
And I'm one of those people who lost most of her family and old friends during transition, but I really no longer worry about that. It's their loss not mine. Maybe it's that, that's shaped who I am today.

[Katelyn]

Ariel, I disagree that the transgender community is being misrepresented by at least the lack of passing transwomen. 

Calpernia, Isis King and Chloe Prince come in mind, and I have seen others in TV shows that looked passing (one example from an Oprah show of a lesbian couple where one was a transwoman and they both had a child from the banked sperm from the transwoman before she transitioned.)

[Amykins]

Many of us "living in stealth" are not doing so out of fear, but doing so because we just want to live our life without unnecessarily broadcasting to everyone about us.

Its really none of their business.

Thankyouverymuch Sarah Louise!

Living stealth is hardly sad or a tragedy in my book, because I didn't transition and get my surgery 13 years ago to live as a TRANSSEXUAL, I did it to live out my life as a WOMAN thankyouverymuch!

Anyone who thinks it's sad and tragic to do that has an agenda radically different from my own.

Amy