The Sad tragedy of those living Stealth. Do our greatest successes live in fear?

[annette]

I think I understand what you mean Ariel, you don't give a judgement to it.
You dont blame the stealth people, I know, that's not the issue.

I know for myself I was lucky, in my time they didn't do frs, you could get hrt and srs.
I'm gratefull to pass, really, it has given me opportunities to get a carreer, relationships and no discrimination based on looks.

I wanted to be a woman and I became a woman, I didn't want the looks of genitalies of a woman, no, I wanted to be lived as a woman.
I have the live as a woman and I'm glad with it.
I don't live in fear, if anyone would ask for it, I won't lie, but I don't advertize with it, sorry that doesn't make sense to me.
Now I have the live I wanted, why would I change this?
I never keeped it as a secret when I met someone in a romantically way, I've always telled the truth, giving people the choice to deal with it or leave.

I'm here because of my past, I know the feeling and struggling of the people who wants to transition and I hope I can contribute to them because of my expirience.
If you want a world with no discrimination( what I think is a lovely tought) I have to disappoint you.
There are always people with several reasons to exclude others,  some for hate, some because of their religion.

There is some change in the way people look at tg's compare to the days when I was in transition, it goes slowly but there is some move.
We can't change the opinions that some other people may have about tg's, but we can change the way we handle with it.
We can ignore their comments, really ignore by not taking it personally, they have their toughts, I have mine, so be it.

If you think I'm living in stealth maybe you're right but I'm feeling good with it and btw, this is my real name and real photo, so there is not so much to hide for me.


hugs
Annette

[Arch]

No one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

My entire point is many of our most successful and pretty and most able to live normal lives are hidden form both society and our community and how can we ever expect to be recognized when we are invisible to the world and public at large.

I respect your intended message, but your original post DOES tell people not to cut off their families in an attempt to live in stealth, it says that we lie, and it says that living stealth is unhealthy. You also accuse stealth trans people of "reinforcing the same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all." In other words, we are actively contributing to the discrimination practiced by bigots who truly hate us? Ouch.

Regardless of your intent, some of what you say is unkind, some is unfair (I know, waaah), and some is untrue.

I would say that people should do what they are comfortable with, when they are comfortable with it. Maybe I'll be out at some future date, but I don't think it's unhealthy for me to live in stealth now. I have enough crap to deal with, and many days I barely manage. Some days, I don't manage at all. Why would I want to add more crap to the pile while I'm still in a fairly fragile state? I honestly think that living an out life would be disastrous for my emotional health. Not everyone is cut out to be openly trans. I probably am not, but that remains to be seen.

By the way, in my community, the most "out" trans activists that I know (about half a dozen of them) are ALL people who "pass" beautifully and who started transition YEARS ago. They have had quite some time to get comfortable with their lives and themselves. And they're all pretty outgoing people in the first place. I'm sure that some of them still have significant issues, but the combination of extroversion and time is pretty powerful. I will never be like them, I don't think I'm capable of being like them, and, in fact, I don't want to be like them. I should think that my trying to be something I'm not is unhealthy--it has been for my entire life, when I was trying to live as a girl. I think I've earned a break, for Pete's sake. If some people think that's tragic, then sobeit. I don't, and I'm the one who decides, as far as I'm able, how to live my life, how to judge my life, and what I want to share with others.

Look at it this way. Two women are raped. Both go through whatever process they must to deal with the trauma and get on with their lives. One woman becomes a rape awareness activist and gives lectures and workshops. The other chooses to just live an ordinary life. One woman might find it cathartic to acknowledge or talk about her experiences in public; the other finds it exquisitely painful to discuss it with strangers. Would you say that it's a tragedy that the second woman stays silent and just wants to live her life in peace? Is it a tragedy that she isn't actively contributing to rape awareness and education of the general public? I would say that it's simply her business what she does with her life. Why should she be expected to wallow in experiences that she would find it uncomfortable or painful to dwell on?

Well, that's my take on the matter.

[Rock_chick]

Actually, just living your life as a normal person is probably the best thing we can do to change hearts and minds. We are not special, we are not different we are just normal men and women albeit with unusual past histories. I'm only a year into my metamorphisis and have been living as myself for barely 4 months and apart from work (where I worked with HR to create guidelines for transition that are becoming company policy), friends and famlly i routinely interact with any number of people who have no idea and with who i choose not to divulge my past history. All i am doing is living my life, as myself...hell I can even talk about my past without lying. That said I will and do talk about myself candidly with people if the situation warrets it and i feel comfortable doing so.

[FairyGirl]

Helena brought up a good point, which is that we are sometimes accused of being deceitful or lying because we choose not to divulge certain details of our pasts. I'm sure almost everyone has things in their pasts they'd rather not speak of, but somehow for us that makes us guilty of some kind of subterfuge.

I've talked about this here before, and I can do no better now than to reiterate those same thoughts:

Still, there is nothing deceitful or lying about being who you really are, despite any birth defect. The fact that someone could even suggest that shows how very little they understand. I know there are people here who have said as much themselves, and I won't judge their subjective feelings but their ideas about themselves absolutely do not apply to me. The truth is for some of us at least that we have always been women no matter what configuration our genitals happened to be in or how we were socialized. To live then as who we really are is just the opposite of living a lie, it is admitting and living the truth. We are, as my therapist puts it, being authentic. That's about as honest as you can get.

...we have come to the true realization that we have been female our whole lives, despite what others may have told us or thought about us at some earlier stages. It then becomes a matter of seeing ourselves as females with a unique set of life circumstances and we adjust our hindsight views accordingly. It's not a lie, a deception, or a falsehood, it is merely a perspective looking back as female to experiences that do not change the fact of who we have been all along.

I remember my first boyfriend at age 11, I remember my first kiss with a boy, I remember playing dolls and dress up and house with other little girls as a child. These are not made up fabrications, I really did those things. But I remember my childhood now from the point of view that I was female back then, even if it was a female in the wrong sort of body, not a little boy being naughty and hiding things from his parents. I may have also due to life circumstances for example been forced to wear ragged clothes or go barefoot, but that doesn't change the fact of who it was that experienced those things. For me it was a little girl, as suppressed as she may have had to be for necessity's sake or for sheer survival in a hostile environment. It is not a lie or deception when I tell you that Chloe experienced those things, because I did.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on "changing", on "transition", on being entirely one thing and then suddenly becoming entirely something else where we have something to hide. Hey, I didn't just wake up one morning as an adult and decide, "well damn, I think I'm female now." I have always been a girl, a young woman, an adult women. I do share experiences with other women because I did those things. Maybe not all of them and maybe not as much, but that repressed little girl came out every single chance she got, and from the perspective of an adult woman I can see it was her who was always REAL; it was the pretend person who was the lie and the deception. I have no reason to remind everyone I meet that anyone other than that real person ever existed. Of course I can if I want to or if I think it will help others in the same or similar situation, but it's not being dishonest if I don't.

[kate durcal]

Like any medical condition, some sufferers made their cause to educate and fight for the right of the sufferer. Good for them, we need them, but not anybody wants or can fulfill that role.
A friend of mine was borne with six fingers in each hand. when he  was 19 yo he got them cut. Now he has just a minor scar in each hand, and he does not like to talk about. When people ask him, he dismiss as an accident. I see my external genital as an accident, correction in progress. When finish, there would be nothing to talk about.

To each his own, the pursuit of happiness, yes? I loud for your efforts to fight for our rights!

Peace,

Kate

[From_Ariel]

I post again becuse I feel some of the below was a attack on me personally as opposed to on the discussion at hand and I will defend myself.

I respect your intended message, but your original post DOES tell people not to cut off their families in an attempt to live in stealth, it says that we lie, and it says that living stealth is unhealthy. You also accuse stealth trans people of "reinforcing the same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all." In other words, we are actively contributing to the discrimination practiced by bigots who truly hate us? Ouch.

Regardless of your intent, some of what you say is unkind, some is unfair (I know, waaah), and some is untrue.

and some people just don't want to hear becuase they don't want to accept there's possibly truth in it?

I'm sorry if you see it as unkind or unfair but you don't always have to like something someone says that doesn't mean I'm doing this to insult anyone... So I quote myself..

"Stealth" is when you do not reveal to anyone that you were ever born differently then you are today. Although the argument can be made that yes they/you always were girls, the argument can also be made that they were always girls but had to pretend to live as boys for a time. Persons in stealth / deep stealth will never allow their "secret" to be found out by friends and coworkers for fear of reprisal. Persons in stealth will also make little white and huge whopper lies to cover for themselves. Those in "Deep-Stealth" often move away from friends and family they have known for years sometimes never even telling them of their transition so that they can hide their secret completely. Thus some friends and family that might have still loved them even after transition are lost and the person is lost to their family. Possibly leaving family members that care very much behind and they will never see them again.

Notice I italicized the words from my original post that clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...

I do not disagree that I wholeheartedly implore others not to give up on their families before they can even find out if their family is loving and or accepting or not. I don't disagree. I think stealth should not be a substitution for being afraid to come out trans.

I also want to say I don't blame those that prefer to live in stealth for this. I understand all to well the fears of discrimination, but how can we ever end discrimination if our greatest successes are all in hiding? How can we be taken seriously? It is so sad that when people live in stealth for their own sake they are actually reinforcing those same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all.

Discrimination is real. It is a risk we all face and so is reprisal. If your trans and you're never afraid then there's something wrong with you. Fear protects us and makes us vigilant against dangers. Also, people seem to miss the fact that I am pointing out "..OUR GREATEST SUCCESSES..." above. I am saying that some of our most successful members of our group are in hiding and society and our own community will never know that we have so many brilliant successful skilled and wonderful people amongst our number. I ask "how can we be taken seriously" and that is a valid question if they don't know us how can society take us seriously?

No one should have to live in "Stealth". No one should have to fear they will be hurt or mistreated if it is found out they were born with a different letter on their birth certificate then now. And IMHO admitting that you were born with a physical sex that doesn't match your true gender identity does not undermine or lessen who you are. A person I knew used to say "I'm a woman with a very unusual medical history". That if anything is true of all of us....

I make the argument that stealth needs to eventually go away just like how being in the closet has largely faded from those that are gay. Even then it is not perfect as my gay brother says "everyday you are constantly either making the decision to be in or out sometimes you have to no matter what you'd like, but I try to be myself and not care who judges me as often as I can, safely." We need to start working on ways to get out of the closet out of stealth. Noone should have to feel forced to be in stealth. Nor should anyone fear being "found out" someday we will be able to walk without anyone thinking less of us for being trans then being nearsighted or diabetic or gay.


Stealth is a reality forced upon us by society.
We can choose to be proud though and it does help us all.
My point is that stealth inherently involves by it's very nature lies.
These lies are not healthy to the whole of our community if we want people to better understand us.
Our most passable and normal and successful members of our society are often ones in stealth.
The rest of society doesn't realize that transgender persons can be that successful or passable cause they will never knowingly meet these people.
I have also stated that anyone on support networks like this can't truly be called fully stealth as they are obviously trying to help.
Can you say stealth does not reinforce a gender binary stereotype?


Are you saying persons in stealth don't lie to cover their story?
Can even one person whom is stealth claim not to have lied ever to hide it?
Aside from lies of omission how often must you make things up to pretend they were always girls / boys etc.

You make it as if I have done something wrong by pointing out that stealth inherently involves lies. You cannot be stealth without some lies sometimes.

Perhaps people that are claiming they don't lie need to read the definitions of lie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lie
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie%5B3%5D

Lying by omission

One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. An example is when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service. Propaganda is an example of lying by omission.

Misleading/dissembling

A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth. "Dissembling" likewise describes the presentation of facts in a way that is literally true, but intentionally misleading.

Noble lie

A noble lie is one that would normally cause discord if uncovered, but offers some benefit to the liar and assists in an orderly society, therefore, potentially beneficial to others. It is often told to maintain law, order and safety.

Contextual lie

One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them. To say "Yeah, that's right, I ate all the white chocolate, by myself." utilizing a sarcastic, offended tone, may cause the listener to assume the speaker did not mean what he said, when in fact he did.



lie (plural lies)
    A deliberately false statement; an intentional falsehood.
    A statement intended to deceive, even if literally true; a half-truth

lie (third-person singular simple present lies, present participle lying, simple past and past participle lied)
    (intransitive) To give false information intentionally.
    (intransitive) To convey a false image or impression.

Definition of LIE
1 

• a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive
• b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker

2 : something that misleads or deceives

Definition of LIE
1
: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2
: to create a false or misleading impression

[tekla]

Be yourself!
Those that Matter don't Mind.
Those that Mind don't Matter.
--Ariel

When I read that after this entire discourse about honesty - particularly the end section about lying - I laughed so hard that I shot the milk I was having with my Honey Smacks through my nose.

You didn't write that.  Dr. Seuss did.  Pot, meet kettle.

clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...
In formal writing - like you are attempting - crap words like that are referred to as weasel words for precisely the reason you are using them and defending them.  They are purposely vague and unsubstantiated.  They are used to confer a veneer of authority when none exists.  Which is also lying as you can't provide any real (i.e. truthful) data to back yourself up, you're merely pretending its there and trying to fool the reader.

[espo]

Fortunately I don't have a problem with lying because if I think you're going to make my life more painful then f u.

[Sarah Louise]

I really think this thread has run its course.  Anytime this subject is attempted it ends up in hurt feelings and anger.

Each side of this issue is very dogmatic in defense and sometimes insuliting of each other.

This is the only warning I will give.

Tone it down or this will be locked.

Sarah L.

[Nero]

I post again becuse I feel some of the below was a attack on me personally as opposed to on the discussion at hand and I will defend myself.

There were no personal attacks in the quoted message. Just disagreement with your views. Whether intended or not, you do seem to be passing some harsh judgment on those who are stealth.

[From_Ariel]

Be yourself!
Those that Matter don't Mind.
Those that Mind don't Matter.
--Ariel

When I read that after this entire discourse about honesty - particularly the end section about lying - I laughed so hard that I shot the milk I was having with my Honey Smacks through my nose.

You didn't write that.  Dr. Seuss did.  Pot, meet kettle.

clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...
In formal writing - like you are attempting - crap words like that are referred to as weasel words for precisely the reason you are using them and defending them.  They are purposely vague and unsubstantiated.  They are used to confer a veneer of authority when none exists.  Which is also lying as you can't provide any real (i.e. truthful) data to back yourself up, you're merely pretending its there and trying to fool the reader.

There is no human being alive that hasn't lied intentionally or not that includes me. I didn't know where it came from tbh a coworker used to hang it on their office pod (uncredited)  I liked it and I use it... as for the -- Ariel It's my signature of course my signature is going to contain my name at the end. Many quotes are re quoted as used by secondary sources and I do find that quote an empowering one.. So I use it, but I will correct it thank you for your education even if the tone of your correction did seem a little condescending to me.

OPPPS looks like your judgement might have been a bit to fast on me and whilst looking up to see if you were right I found this...

Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
        Bernard Baruch in response to a question by Igor Cassini as to how he handled the seating arrangements at his dinner parties, as quoted in Shake Well Before Using: A New Collection of Impressions and Anecdotes Mostly Humorous (1948) by Bennett Cerf, p. 249; the full response was "I never bother about that. Those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter." This anecdote is also quoted online at Chiasmus.com. It has also become part of a larger expression, which has been commonly attributed to Dr. Seuss, even in print, but without citation of a specific work: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

In other words many people have credited Dr. Suess with that quote but not one written or first hand account of the man using it has been found... However it was found used in a book in 1948 even so that version doesn't have the be yourself part so meh I'll keep it as is.

Fortunately I don't have a problem with lying because if I think you're going to make my life more painful then f u.

^ Not sure how that relates to the conversation nor how I am making anyone's life uncomfortable. The last part of your sentence is completely unnecessary.

Once you start resorting to insults, you've officially lost the argument.

[Arch]

Ariel, you're succeeding very well at something that you say you're trying not to do.

No one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

First of all, you consistently say that you don't understand the people who are disagreeing with you, even though they usually present their view pretty clearly. Then you say that nobody understands YOU, even though your posts clearly send mixed messages. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.

You have claimed that you're not judging or browbeating. But I pointed out some places where your INTENT was obviously contradicted by your actual statements: regardless of what you say is your intent, you were clearly being judgmental and/or browbeating. And then you play the same old broken record of "Oh, but I don't INTEND to piss people off!"

Hon, maybe it's time to recognize that this is a sensitive issue, and people ARE a bit ticked off, partly because of your hidden assumptions and partly because you essentially say one thing and do another--regardless of what you meant to do. It happens sometimes. People aren't always consistent. But please don't pretend that you're not doing it when it's so clear that you are. That's either deluded...or dishonest.

One final point about honesty, and then I'll shut up. You define a lie by omission as "omitting an important fact." There's a huge "hidden" assumption here, that YOU get to decide what is "important" for other people's lives. You've decided for all the rest of us that it's important for all of us to be out. You appear to be saying that all stealth or semi-stealth persons of transsexual history are liars when they do not immediately tell anybody and everybody about their past.

I really do not think it's important for everyone to know about my background, any more than I feel compelled to inform every stranger on the street that I had ear surgery at age five, that I have an older brother living in another state, that I like anal sex, or that I masturbated three times before breakfast the other day.

And I'm deeply, deeply offended that you have omitted to tell me important facts about YOUR life, like your place of birth, what you had for dinner last Sunday, your most intimate sexual practices, and every little thing that I have decided important but that you didn't think was my business.

I think it will be a good thing if somebody locks this thread. Since I'm in the middle of it, I sure as heck can't do it.

P.S. Okay, one more thing.

I dream of a day when we need to fear someone finding out we're trans no more then to fear someone finding out we're Diabetic.

I think just about every person of trans history looks forward to this.

[From_Ariel]

re the definitions and "important fact" those arn't my definitions those come from the cited links:  Wikipedia Wiktionary and Merriem-Webster online.

In debate you should attack the argument not the person..

Anytime "You" is used it is generally the later.

But fine I will close this thread myself as it seems to be such a hot point for so many.

* From_Ariel takes a bow.