Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey everyone,

Sorry to bother everyone with this, but it's something I'm really dying to know and a tad different than my last few threads.  Every single time I walk out of the house or interact with other people, I keep wondering whether they know or suspect something- yes, I know that I have a lot of anxiety.  To my eyes, I still look like a boy, but I don't really know what others see or think.  I keep feeling like everyone is on to me.  Therefore, I really want to know if I look like an unconvincing male or whether people are likely to suspect something.  This isn't so much of a "do I or can I pass" more than it is "do you think everyone knows something is going on"?  I just get the sense that everybody around me can tell or knows I'm trans even though I'm not ready for full time yet.  Please no judging that as I need to do things on my own terms and timeframe, but I do want to know if my looks raise alarm bells.  The pics below are of me getting ready to head out to work and a good representation of what my "male" mode appearance looks like.  I know it doesn't pass as female (I'm not trying or attempting to do so in anyway), but the point is does it pass as male without raising suspicions?  I'm still in a place where I need to live as a guy for a bit longer while I try to sort out my employment/family issues and continue to improve my appearance so it is more passable as female (which I don't feel it is close to it at the moment and still requires work).  I need to find long term work and which will require me passing as male beforehand and the anxiety of feeling like everyone knows I'm a transexual while I'm still not ready for full time is really disheartening.  So in a way, I don't mind passing as "male" at this stage as it allows me to live this way temporarily without feeling judged or detected prior to my coming out.  In any case, I'm the worst judge of myself, so I want to know what everyone else think.  Thanks everyone! :)

P.S.  Sorry for my insanity, but we all have our own individual struggles and you know how much anxiety I get. 

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3752/13170947855_7bed70baab_z.jpg)  (https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/13171050413_2040f417ca_z.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2090/13171201074_2d7a5831b5_z.jpg)

well, being honest , you look like a normal person

I honestly do think you look female. I can only see the male if I look veeeery closely, and that's not even because you look male - I just have to stretch my imagination a little. If this wasn't a trans site I wouldn't even think anything of it. You have big, feminine eyes and lips, smooth skin, gentle expression. I do believe you could go full time as female.

I read your face as female, but that shouldn't really stop you from "passing" as male. So long as you aren't talking in a female voice, and move like a man does, I think you could pass as male if you want, especially if you are dealing with people who have always known you as male, as they will see what they want.

That however, doesn't mean that someone wouldn't think something is up. I am not full time yet, but hormones have softened my face (and made my breasts HURT!), and I wear my hair down, and people whisper behind my back at work that I must be secretly gay and whatnot. It turns out, trans isn't really the first place most people go when they see someone they knew as male with a more feminine appearance.

Thanks everyone that has contributed so far.

Quote from: Hikari on March 15, 2014, 01:01:37 PM
I read your face as female, but that shouldn't really stop you from "passing" as male. So long as you aren't talking in a female voice, and move like a man does, I think you could pass as male if you want, especially if you are dealing with people who have always known you as male, as they will see what they want.

That however, doesn't mean that someone wouldn't think something is up. I am not full time yet, but hormones have softened my face (and made my breasts HURT!), and I wear my hair down, and people whisper behind my back at work that I must be secretly gay and whatnot. It turns out, trans isn't really the first place most people go when they see someone they knew as male with a more feminine appearance.

Yeah, I sort of have what others might call a somewhat "gay" demeanor, so that doesn't help.  I just don't know how to act any differently and my persona is my persona.   

I would read you as female on the street without a second thought.

Though I do agree you're probably fine passing as male in places that know you as male. Especially with the right movements and body language and voice. And I agree that most people don't automatically think trans -- they'll probably just question your sexuality.

LtL, the further along in transition I've gone, the more and more I've realized that the prospect of being trans really just doesn't register on pretty much anyone's radar.

If you look and act effeminate as a guy, people will usually very quickly question your sexual orientation, but pretty much never your gender identity. I've NEVER had someone ask me if I was transgender or not.

Even at work when I was still presenting as "male" and yet was consistently blatantly getting gendered female by other people, even though I smiled when people used those female pronouns and never corrected them, people STILL didn't suspect anything. They were still surprised when I came out to them. And even weirder... now that most people are gendering me female, they're still surprised when I reveal to them that I have a male name.

So seriously. Most people just do not even register the concept of transness. If they read you as male, they'll just automatically assume that you're a cis-male, maybe one who's gay, but cis nonetheless. And likewise if they read you as female, they'll assume that you're a cis-female. The only way that people will ever think that you are trans is if they read you as male, and yet you're wearing blatantly-female clothing. (It doesn't happen the other way around. Those who are read as female and yet wearing male clothing are usually just quarantined into the "butch lesbian" category rather than seen as trans.)

In my personal opinion, from your pictures, you look feminine, but your presentation is more masculine, and thus you end up looking androgynous. (VERY pretty, though. You're cute whichever gender you get read as!) Which means that, to my eyes, you could probably pass as either male or female just as well depending on your voice and mannerisms. If you dress in male clothing and speak like a male, people are going to gender you male, and have no suspicions of transness. If you dressed in female clothing, people would probably gender you female.

And again, from personal experience... I was making NO effort to present as male at work. I was even wearing a women's watch, had my eyebrows plucked into a blatantly-feminine arch, with my boobs unbound and proudly on display, was speaking in my female voice, using feminine mannerisms, and even wearing women's pants, earrings, and a bracelet for crying out loud. But people STILL didn't suspect that I was trans. They just took me for either a woman, or an effeminate gay man. Seriously... people are WAY denser when it comes to gender identity than we give them credit for. Ask 90% of people what a transgender person is, and they'll say "uh... a man who wants to dress like a woman, right?" And I'm serious about that. So unless you are wearing blatantly-female clothing yet still being read as male, (which honestly you shouldn't have any trouble with, because your face is NOT blatantly male-shaped. You'd have to have a really deep voice or very blatantly-male mannerisms to get read as trans with how feminine you look,) people seriously are not going to suspect a thing.

I am going to tell you the truth, you should just go for a female presentation and thats it. Stick with women buttom down shirts and work your way from there. That undershirt has to go. In another 2 months your going to look completely akward with mens clothes because your face would be too female.

WHoaah, thats what you look like :o? Niiice! I haven't seen you before. I see no male in those pics. Your eyes and brows especially are very very female.

I'm a really honest person so if your voice and all that is good I would not clock you. Your face alone is definitely female.

Omg do you do makeup btw? Cuz it would look really good on you!

You look like a very pretty young woman.

Im sure you often get the "oh sorry I though you were a girl "
with this presentation XD

I have to admit, that just judging from your face and hair alone if I met someone looking like that at the mall, Starbucks or on the street my mind would instantly say female, period! If I had your face I wouldn't waste my time trying to pass myself off as any kind of male, there is absolutely nothing masculine about you. I hope that you don't find my comments disturbing, I'm just being honest.

You look like a girl. Hopefully you've got a pretty deep voice and masculine demeanor to offset that!

I see no male at all LTL. Your eyes themselves give off a kind of female soulful look. If you would smile a little more no one could tell you were anything other than female. :)

You look good, have some fun, get your do fluffed up nice. Maybe shape eyebrows some. Makeup is normal every day for most women.

You look great, enjoy.

I'm going to say based off that pic you could pass as a male now probably not a straight male granted but you can still pass as a feminine male or teenage boy. I hope my opinion doesn't upset you I'm just trying to be as honest as possible and to be honest the main things that stood out as male to me was the way you part your hair and your eyebrows. But other than that your borderline androgynous and you shouldn't have any major problems when you finally do start living as yourself full time. :)

I think you look borderline... that if you aggressively try to pass for male, perhaps particularly with a male voice, you could probably get away with it. Especially around people who already have their mental image of you firmly set at "male." But you're getting close to the male fail moment (unfortunately if that's not what you want). You look like a very pretty, very feminine guy, even here.

I'm kinda seeing a brunette Jodie Foster.

Quote from: FA on March 15, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
I'm kinda seeing a brunette Jodie Foster.

Lol now that it is in my mind so am I

Quote from: Hikari on March 15, 2014, 04:51:14 PM
Lol now that it is in my mind so am I

Make me three on that!

Thanks everyone for responding.  It's nice to know that the overwhelming response is that I look female (for my long term goals), but I'm a little skittish feeling as well.  Like others have said, I feel I look more like a fem boy and that's why I'm working on myself before attempting fulltime.  In any case, I do feel that I will get there in time and won't have too many problems once I feel ready.

My main concern, however, is financial.  At the moment, I have some temp work, but I really have no long term plan.  I'm hoping to stay at my current job and they want to keep me, but the practice I'm working for is owned by a larger entity.  That company is under a very strict hiring freeze and it's preventing them for filling the position they want me to take.  So, I need approval and right now the chances of that are slim which sucks because I like it there and everyone is really nice.  So I'm forced to continue searching for other options, but nothing is really working in my favor.  My appearance factors into this equation because sometimes I feel my looks or trans status hurts me in new potential avenues as I've seen strangers treat me differently then they once did.   I'm suspecting that's because people detect that I'm trans and/or the more fem I get the less seriously people take me.  Sometimes I feel like a walking joke.  In the past, people in professional settings treated me with respect and like an adult, regardless of my age, because of my overall character.  Sure, I'd get discriminated for being viewed as "gay" at times (which presented really awful situations in my life), but it was different.  Like there was a level of respect regardless of how weird or different I was.  Now, I feel like people are nicer and more humane to me, but I have to really prove myself harder and even then people don't take me seriously.  Like I'm treated like a little kid that everyone likes, but no less a kid; rather than the adult that everyone else dislikes.  And this makes me wonder how much of it plays a role in my job search.   Without employment, I have no way to finance myself and finalize my transition.  To do that, I feel I need to pretend to be a guy and secure work.  For one thing, all my history is as a "male" and my legal documents and everything.  Very few employers want to hire a transgender worker off the bat because we are viewed as strange.  So, I have to continue the charade in order to get where I want to be, financially speaking, but I don't feel I can do this anymore.  I feel the jig is up.  Two, I feel like women are treated with kid gloves, especially by men, and it can play a role in how potential employers may percieve us.  Sadly, I'm really seeing how even small aspects of male privilege can be quite powerful.  It's just frustrating.  I guess it's difficult to be in middle of transition and trying to find work.   

Besides the economic aspect, I'm also a little concerned people will know before I'm ready to come out.  At this point, I think there is no hiding it and I'll have to deal with the fact that people will know.  I just don't want others to hate me, and I can't help but feel that the world does.  Perhaps that's the wrong way of looking at it, but I've seen enough commentary about us to know that the stealth life will be my choice.  It's the only way I can ever feel comfortable with the fact that I'm trans.  I guess for me, the awkward in-between andro stage is very difficult because there is no hiding.  You have to be prepared for people to know and detect your transgender nature.  For me, I wasn't prepared for it, but I'm learning to cope by understanding that one day this will pass.  Seriously, the whole andro presentation is helping me develop tougher skin even though I don't want to go through it.  Maybe that's a good thing.  After reading all these comments, I'll have to give up my fantasy that the world won't know until I'm ready to come out. eh....

All in all, I'm happy so far with my transition.  Honestly, for all the social fears I have, most people couldn't be more respectful or wonderful.  Seriously, I feel I'm treated like a human and people are so nice to me than they ever were before.  I guess I just don't like how kid like I feel some view me and the idea that my transgender status may hold me back in life gets to me.  But things are working out better than for the worst, so maybe I should just silence my fears a bit.

Thanks everyone who commented!  I appreciate it!

Ι just want to comment the coming out to people part...

they wont hate you ...
I ve came out to soooo many people not a single one said something like "oh ok I hate you dont call me again"

I know it happens , but I believe its not that common anymore...

you really are too hard on yourself

Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 15, 2014, 06:06:07 PM
Ι just want to comment the coming out to people part...

they wont hate you ...
I ve came out to soooo many people not a single one said something like "oh ok I hate you dont call me again"

I know it happens , but I believe its not that common anymore...

I guess the fact is that I have encountered rejection and it's colored my perception on this.  Most people aren't like that, I know.  I also come from an early background which taught me to fear others for legitimate reasons and blame myself for their actions no matter what.  It's just what I was taught this as a kid and unlearning that behavior is very hard.

Quote from: stephaniec on March 15, 2014, 06:11:52 PM
you really are too hard on yourself

That's true.  I know I am.  I just don't know how to be anything other than that. 

I would look for other clues (voice, movement etc) to determine gender of a person who looks like you. Your looks should not impede employment.   It's getting closer to the time for you to go full time.

Hugs,

Jen

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I think you're at a tipping point. How you talk and move and what you wear will be the things that people gender you by. You look great btw :)

When I see your pictures I think you look very androgyne. Maybe there's a slight tip on the female side, but I still think that you will "pass" as male when you go out. Obviously this will change in the future as you get further down the HRT-path.

Quote from: JLT1 on March 15, 2014, 07:07:24 PM
I would look for other clues (voice, movement etc) to determine gender of a person who looks like you. Your looks should not impede employment.   It's getting closer to the time for you to go full time.

Hugs,

Jen

Well, I guess I feel that my looks can impact how people perceive me.  If it's noticeable that I'm a transexual, then it's very possible that I can get discriminated against in the employment spectrum.  And I've seen the look on people's faces that reads "is this queer for real".  I don't know.  If my job history and legal name is male, then I kind of have to present that way; however, my looks may be somewhat deceiving and out me right then and there.  And I feel like it's happening all the time which may be harmful as being trans isn't seen as a good thing in most people's eyes.  I kind of see how people have been looking at me and treating me, so it's very likely that I'm getting read as trans all the time.  And like I said before, for whatever reason, I feel people are taking me as seriously as they once did.  It's just little subtle things that I watch for in my interactions with others and it cues me off when someone feels a certain way.  I don't know.  I think this is a thing that many younger women experience in general, so it may not be a trans thing.  In any case, I feel like it's making my job search harder than it should be and it's frustrating. 

Quote from: Joan on March 15, 2014, 08:44:26 PM
I think you're at a tipping point. How you talk and move and what you wear will be the things that people gender you by. You look great btw :)

Yeah, I don't act like a typical male at all, but then my voice is nowhere where I want it to be.  I don't think I'm passing as female, more than I feel like I'm NOT passing as male anymore.  Like people can detect I'm trans and in the middle of transitioning.  It sucks because I'd like to avoid outing myself.   I hate being seen as trans and just want to be able to make the switch as easy as possible without this middle stage.  Then again, I realize this is something I have to go through and people will have to know at a certain point. 

Quote from: 930310 on March 16, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
When I see your pictures I think you look very androgyne. Maybe there's a slight tip on the female side, but I still think that you will "pass" as male when you go out. Obviously this will change in the future as you get further down the HRT-path.

I sort of feel the same way, though I don't really think I'm passing as male more than passing as a transitioning transwoman.  Maybe I'm just overthinking it. 

I see a young girl. However you may be able to pass as male if you wear real baggy clothes, maybe a flanel shirt, (lol -couldn't help myself), and stuff a pillow up your shirt to immitate a beer belly. :laugh:

Seriously, If I were you I wouldn't even waiste my time trying to pass as male anymore.

Alright, hon, you want honesty so... here it is.

Speaking personally, I don't think I'm the best person to ask. Which is why I very rarely comment in such threads. The nature of the site is such that I subconsciously give far more scrutiny of anyone posting asking how they look than I would if I didn't know anything about the person beforehand.

Those pictures, I think you look androgynous. To the point where were you to tell me you were male or female, I would be like "oh, okay. Cool. Nice to meet you." Were it left to me to determine... based only on those pictures, I don't think I would be able to.

FEMALE is written all over your face, that too EFFORTLESSLY. You wear make up and have boobs you'd be perfect. Wow we never saw you before, you're so cute.

You look very female to me.  Sorry, but your male pass ability isn't very convincing to me, anyway.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-tBlVq8lrVgs%2FUjSG4ravpvI%2FAAAAAAAAGuA%2Fr5NNdZqqgv8%2Fs1600%2F192725bc6089acf4f5705e4872e3f5c7.jpg&hash=2cdc6f9b8c7ac1b794cc1c6e362bdf31918c8c30)

If you need to buy yourself some more time, you could get a distinctly male haircut.  That would get you six months to a year as it grew back.

You do look really nice,  ironically, you're at exactly where I'd like to be, to the femi-side of andyrogenous. Though I'll never be as pretty as you.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Quote from: JordanBlue on March 16, 2014, 01:58:44 PM
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You have a point, but I can't fully agree.  It's just that I need to find work.  And sadly, part of the interviewing process and ability to get your foot in the door depends on other people's perceptions.  Sometimes social judgement and interpretations play a larger role than we may wish to acknowledge.  Let's face it, people are very much a social animal.  There is no removing that as much as we would like to.  It's part of life an how others see us can determine the quality of our lives. 

Quote from: Sephirah on March 16, 2014, 01:50:20 PM
Alright, hon, you want honesty so... here it is.

Speaking personally, I don't think I'm the best person to ask. Which is why I very rarely comment in such threads. The nature of the site is such that I subconsciously give far more scrutiny of anyone posting asking how they look than I would if I didn't know anything about the person beforehand.

Those pictures, I think you look androgynous. To the point where were you to tell me you were male or female, I would be like "oh, okay. Cool. Nice to meet you." Were it left to me to determine... based only on those pictures, I don't think I would be able to.

Yeah, that's sort of how I see myself oddly enough.  Like I'm a bit in-between and andro.  It's just that the way people tend to perceive and view me suggests that many are on to me.  Not that I pass as female, but that I don't pass as either and that's a clue to what's going on.   I guess I'm just tired of feeling self conscious about what everyone else thinks and feeling upset that everyone knows.  But like it or not, it does matter.   It just does.  Especially since I'm still in the middle of my transition and not ready to go full time (both physically and mentally) and still need to secure long term work.

Quote from: JamesG on March 16, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
If you need to buy yourself some more time, you could get a distinctly male haircut.  That would get you six months to a year as it grew back.

You do look really nice,  ironically, you're at exactly where I'd like to be, to the femi-side of andyrogenous. Though I'll never be as pretty as you.

Thanks for your comment.  Cut my hair!?  Oh god that would be like the death of me, lol.  Believe me, I'm not that pretty.  Anyone can be prettier than me, lol. 

From the picture you look female. Sorry your a girl!  ;)

Quote from: learningtolive on March 16, 2014, 02:17:44 PM
You have a point, but I can't fully agree.  It's just that I need to find work.  And sadly, part of the interviewing process and ability to get your foot in the door depends on other people's perceptions.  Sometimes social judgement and interpretations play a larger role than we may wish to acknowledge.  Let's face it, people are very much a social animal.  There is no removing that as much as we would like to.  It's part of life an how others see us can determine the quality of our lives. 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsweetplussavory.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F02%2Frun-quote.jpg&hash=e19fb35005d380ff00f489c6e24456b22b3a8753)

LtL, I dreamed about this thread last night. Not sure why. :-\

In my dream, I was assuring you that you pass perfectly and I had come up with the perfect name for you. Weird.

Quote from: Aina on March 16, 2014, 02:33:15 PM
From the picture you look female. Sorry your a girl!  ;)

Is that something to feel sorry for? She should feel happy that her transition is going so well and that people read her as female.
And it's also a price to pay with transition. If you want to take hormones to alter your appearance it will happen.
All we can do is be happy for her and that her transition is going well. Then that these situations occur is something that we must live with.
I wish you the best of luck learningtolive!

LTL:

I've never seen a photo of you until now, and let me first say that you're going to be a very pretty young lady. 

But as far as being in a male persona I wouldn't worry right now.  They've done specific studies about voice and gesture interpretation.  And a large part of everyone's perception of us depends on our voice, and the way we act.  A boisterous male voice and male attitude do a lot to sway what others think as long as you don't show any concern about what they are seeing in your appearance.  I won't direct you to any individual Youtube video, but look at one or two voice feminization videos and listen to the differences in Male and Female voices with your eyes shut, then with them open.  What you hear and see are tightly bound in your mind, and one can greatly effect the other.  This is especially true about an individuals voice, pitch and timbre, and how that effects what you see in a persons face.



By the way, one of my cousins has a very effeminate looking and acting son who we all are sure is gay or trans.  But, he acts entirely male when he's in public and no one even questions his orientation or identity (excepting all his relatives).  So acting the part and using a male voice and gestures solves his problems, and it should do the same for you.

In short, only worry about the way you speak or act, and you can let the rest take care of itself.  And the full time thing wait for later if it must.  You'll be fine.   

PS. I want laser voice surgery very soon after SRS so I don't need to control a voice that is nearly always out of control.  To wit, the old voice can get burned away forever.

I posted a lot ealier in the thread, but quickly deleted it. I felt bad because i didn't want to be the only person saying that you do look androgynous in those photos - heavily leaning female. I've been trying to shut up and not swim against the tide much recently like Seph i suppose.

Anyhow, i can very much relate to a lot of what you wrote. I too think that whilst i can't fully or rather don't feel comfortable presenting and passing as a women, i don't feel that 'the man' is all that convincing otherwise. I guess it all comes down to how long someone has known you for and the imprint that they already have in their mind. My mother for example is one source that lets me know that she only sees a man, and indeed the same went for my optician on a recent visit, a man who i have seen for a few years prior to HRT. However, that's balanced by the looks that i get, even when wearing a suit and tie (thinking i look quite masculine) it doesn't stop the slightly puzzled expressions. I actually had to stop to by a tie before an interview and when i asked a member of staff to point me in the direction of the ties she said 'you mean a man's tie?' to which i thought well i;m in a suit, without a tie, and i didn't even know women had ties?. The guy serving at the counter looked uncomfortable. So yeah different perceptions of me on the same day, BUT at my interview with my recruitment agent, she was absolutely lovely, massive help and very supportive of my applications. I didn't get the impression that my slightly androgynous appearance would bias her job or the interview process.

I find tying my hair back, letting my eyebrows grow out helps. Facial hair just looks so fricking odd now with the changes in skin texture, so maybe avoid growing that out as well.

Quote from: castle of glass on March 16, 2014, 03:10:06 PM
I posted a lot ealier in the thread, but quickly deleted it. I felt bad because i didn't want to be the only person saying that you do look androgynous in those photos - heavily leaning female. I've been trying to shut up and not swim against the tide much recently like Seph i suppose.

Anyhow, i can very much relate to a lot of what you wrote. I too think that whilst i can't fully or rather don't feel comfortable presenting and passing as a women, i don't feel that 'the man' is all that convincing otherwise. I guess it all comes down to how long someone has known you for and the imprint that they already have in their mind. My mother for example is one source that lets me know that she only sees a man, and indeed the same went for my optician on a recent visit, a man who i have seen for a few years prior to HRT. However, that's balanced by the looks that i get, even when wearing a suit and tie (thinking i look quite masculine) it doesn't stop the slightly puzzled expressions. I actually had to stop to by a tie before an interview and when i asked a member of staff to point me in the direction of the ties she said 'you mean a man's tie?' to which i thought well i;m in a suit, without a tie, and i didn't even know women had ties?. The guy serving at the counter looked uncomfortable. So yeah different perceptions of me on the same day, BUT at my interview with my recruitment agent, she was absolutely lovely, massive help and very supportive of my applications. I didn't get the impression that my slightly androgynous appearance would bias her job or the interview process.

I find tying my hair back, letting my eyebrows grow out helps. Facial hair just looks so fricking odd now with the changes in skin texture, so maybe avoid growing that out as well.

I think the same as you do castle of glass. She does have an androgyne look, but it does lean over to the "female"-side.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 16, 2014, 02:17:44 PMCut my hair!?  Oh god that would be like the death of me, lol. 

Which is the point. You want to temporarily "kill" some of the feminization you've achived and be "Serious Professional Guy" for a while right?  Just an idea.

Quote from: JamesG on March 16, 2014, 03:14:06 PM
Which is the point. You want to temporarily "kill" some of the feminization you've achived and be "Serious Professional Guy" for a while right?  Just an idea.

"A girl's hair is her body". Or at least so I've heard...
(Ranma ½-reference for those that didn't get it)

Quote from: learningtolive on March 16, 2014, 02:17:44 PM
Yeah, that's sort of how I see myself oddly enough.  Like I'm a bit in-between and andro.  It's just that the way people tend to perceive and view me suggests that many are on to me.  Not that I pass as female, but that I don't pass as either and that's a clue to what's going on.   I guess I'm just tired of feeling self conscious about what everyone else thinks and feeling upset that everyone knows.  But like it or not, it does matter.   It just does.  Especially since I'm still in the middle of my transition and not ready to go full time (both physically and mentally) and still need to secure long term work.

Well, the thing is, how you think you look to other people, and how you think they think you look, isn't based a whole lot on how you actually look. The more we try to hide something, the more we think everyone automatically knows what we're hiding. Nothing to do with what we actually don't want them to know, but because we question our own ability to not express ourselves the way we want to. Or guilt at having to hide something. It's like... hmm, have you ever read the short story "The Tell-Tale Heart" By Edgar Allan Poe? About the guy who murders someone and is convinced he can hear the heart beating from under the floorboards where he hid all the... bits, so everyone else must be able to hear it too?

Most of the time, it's a projection, sweetie. It's your mind projecting the feelings of "Well if it were me, I'd be able to tell something was up, so they must be able to as well." Whether or not they can is usually unimportant. We all are very guilty of putting our own feelings in other people's minds, and attributing them to the other person, even if they're not there. It's a case of assuming everyone is as hypersensitive about us as we are about ourselves.

The way to get past it is to have confidence in however you're choosing to present. Then it will lessen the feelings you project onto others and read as their own. I know that's a really easy thing to say and a much harder thing to do. But I guess it comes down to owning yourself in whichever way you're presenting at the time, you know? If you want to present male, see it as a role. And play it in the best way you can. The thing people pick up on far more than the way someone looks, is the way they act. Body language and how you carry yourself makes up a much higher percentage of what someone else thinks than how you look. Learn to control that, and you get the keys to the kingdom, as it were. :)

LTL I'm sorry to tell you this but you are at the very awkward part of transition, you may get gendered male and 5 minutes later gendered female.

I think you can pass a a boy in the pic you posted...not saying you look entirely like one but in situations where you need to you should be able too but with some strange looks from others. With anyone that knows you somewhat personally they may see something different but there brain will only see a guy. Even if you are presenting female....get ready for some of these types. For others its one or two quick markers that will give them their impression.

In my andro stage I was gawd awful ugly, but I was getting gendered female more then male....and mostly at the wrong times when not expecting it. Sometimes it was someone in a checkout lane behind me referring to me as she, sometimes at one of my children's school functions. Many of these instances I looked pretty shabby I wasn't shaved many times or was covered in paint and grime....and if I did try to look a little more feminine I probably looked like a poorly dressed CD.

I know exactly how you feel when trying to seek employment at this stage. I know of one job I didn't get because the interviewer thought I was the girl that had the next appointment but just showed up early. I was looking nothing like a woman, the only thing was that my hair was longer. I had on slacks, dress shirt (I think a tie), dress shoes and a mans wool coat. After she realized her mistake I felt as if I was doing something wrong....like it was my fault.

I think this is the kind of stuff you are fearing, and I'm not going to tell you it doesn't happen. But even if these people are not treating you in an unfair discriminating way....they still may be befuddled enough to pass you by....especially when there are many other candidates. I think this is why it may be better to move things along faster, like name change. This doesn't mean you have to go fulltime, but at least you could present the correct gender at interviews.

This still will not solve all matters. Even if your name and gender are legally changed there is still your past that will come up. At least though this can be explained further in the interview process, and not in the initial one where first impressions are very important. I still have problems finding employment even though my legal gender is female and my legal name is Shelly ****...mostly because so much background information is found out ahead of time...even though employers are not allowed to do background checks they can do much preliminary research to find out more about you. I think this is one reason I don't even get initial interviews.

All in all though I feel my chances are better than if they thought a women showed up for what was suppose to be a man.....like I said this can throw off even the most caring compassionate person.

I do have many many weird instances that happened during this stage. Most I can laugh about now....but when they were happening I either didn't realize it until further into the situation or it was at very awkward situations.

Quote from: castle of glass on March 16, 2014, 03:10:06 PM
.... I too think that whilst i can't fully or rather don't feel comfortable presenting and passing as a women, i don't feel that 'the man' is all that convincing otherwise. I guess it all comes down to how long someone has known you for and the imprint that they already have in their mind. My mother for example is one source that lets me know that she only sees a man, and indeed the same went for my optician on a recent visit, a man who i have seen for a few years prior to HRT.... However, that's balanced by the looks that i get, even when wearing a suit and tie (thinking i look quite masculine) it doesn't stop the slightly puzzled expressions. I actually had to stop to by a tie before an interview and when i asked a member of staff to point me in the direction of the ties she said 'you mean a man's tie?' to which i thought well i;m in a suit, without a tie, and i didn't even know women had ties?. The guy serving at the counter looked uncomfortable.... ..

This is very true!! I can finally say that almost everybody I knew in the past either walk right by me or wouldn't even know who I am if I spoke to them. I wrote previously about a past good friend of mine.....but in my situation I isolated myself quite a bit in the 1 1/2 years of pre transition and then when presenting more of an andro look I still wasn't that out and about.

but....you will have those people that it will take years to see something or worse yet to completely understand. I recently had my sister, who has accepted and supported me so well, refer to me as him in a conversation with another women. 2 years ago I would of been embarrassed and kind of just shrugged it off....this time I took it very hard and it hurt a lot!! I wasn't because I felt awkward...the other women just kind of looked around for a "him"....but more so I thought I was past that stage of having to correct her or even that she had accepted me as the women I am....I guess I was wrong. I do know this takes time but I'm past the point of correcting those who are the closest....it doesn't help anyways...they just get upset knowing it was a mistake and that I shouldn't be so sensitive! Oh well!

Oh and the situation you had with the suit on....I know why they asked what they did! Doesn't make the situation any better or make you feel better....but there definitely is some marker telling them your female!

Quote from: castle of glass on March 16, 2014, 03:10:06 PM
I posted a lot ealier in the thread, but quickly deleted it. I felt bad because i didn't want to be the only person saying that you do look androgynous in those photos - heavily leaning female. I've been trying to shut up and not swim against the tide much recently like Seph i suppose.

Anyhow, i can very much relate to a lot of what you wrote. I too think that whilst i can't fully or rather don't feel comfortable presenting and passing as a women, i don't feel that 'the man' is all that convincing otherwise. I guess it all comes down to how long someone has known you for and the imprint that they already have in their mind. My mother for example is one source that lets me know that she only sees a man, and indeed the same went for my optician on a recent visit, a man who i have seen for a few years prior to HRT. However, that's balanced by the looks that i get, even when wearing a suit and tie (thinking i look quite masculine) it doesn't stop the slightly puzzled expressions. I actually had to stop to by a tie before an interview and when i asked a member of staff to point me in the direction of the ties she said 'you mean a man's tie?' to which i thought well i;m in a suit, without a tie, and i didn't even know women had ties?. The guy serving at the counter looked uncomfortable. So yeah different perceptions of me on the same day, BUT at my interview with my recruitment agent, she was absolutely lovely, massive help and very supportive of my applications. I didn't get the impression that my slightly androgynous appearance would bias her job or the interview process.

I find tying my hair back, letting my eyebrows grow out helps. Facial hair just looks so fricking odd now with the changes in skin texture, so maybe avoid growing that out as well.

Don't feel bad.  I feel the same way about myself.  But yeah it's weird when you're still in between.  It just draws so much attention that I'm not looking for. 

Quote from: kathyk on March 16, 2014, 03:07:24 PM
LTL:

I've never seen a photo of you until now, and let me first say that you're going to be a very pretty young lady. 

But as far as being in a male persona I wouldn't worry right now.  They've done specific studies about voice and gesture interpretation.  And a large part of everyone's perception of us depends on our voice, and the way we act.  A boisterous male voice and male attitude do a lot to sway what others think as long as you don't show any concern about what they are seeing in your appearance.  I won't direct you to any individual Youtube video, but look at one or two voice feminization videos and listen to the differences in Male and Female voices with your eyes shut, then with them open.  What you hear and see are tightly bound in your mind, and one can greatly effect the other.  This is especially true about an individuals voice, pitch and timbre, and how that effects what you see in a persons face.



By the way, one of my cousins has a very effeminate looking and acting son who we all are sure is gay or trans.  But, he acts entirely male when he's in public and no one even questions his orientation or identity (excepting all his relatives).  So acting the part and using a male voice and gestures solves his problems, and it should do the same for you.

In short, only worry about the way you speak or act, and you can let the rest take care of itself.  And the full time thing wait for later if it must.  You'll be fine.   

PS. I want laser voice surgery very soon after SRS so I don't need to control a voice that is nearly always out of control.  To wit, the old voice can get burned away forever.

Quote from: Sephirah on March 16, 2014, 03:26:42 PM
Well, the thing is, how you think you look to other people, and how you think they think you look, isn't based a whole lot on how you actually look. The more we try to hide something, the more we think everyone automatically knows what we're hiding. Nothing to do with what we actually don't want them to know, but because we question our own ability to not express ourselves the way we want to. Or guilt at having to hide something. It's like... hmm, have you ever read the short story "The Tell-Tale Heart" By Edgar Allan Poe? About the guy who murders someone and is convinced he can hear the heart beating from under the floorboards where he hid all the... bits, so everyone else must be able to hear it too?

Most of the time, it's a projection, sweetie. It's your mind projecting the feelings of "Well if it were me, I'd be able to tell something was up, so they must be able to as well." Whether or not they can is usually unimportant. We all are very guilty of putting our own feelings in other people's minds, and attributing them to the other person, even if they're not there. It's a case of assuming everyone is as hypersensitive about us as we are about ourselves.

The way to get past it is to have confidence in however you're choosing to present. Then it will lessen the feelings you project onto others and read as their own. I know that's a really easy thing to say and a much harder thing to do. But I guess it comes down to owning yourself in whichever way you're presenting at the time, you know? If you want to present male, see it as a role. And play it in the best way you can. The thing people pick up on far more than the way someone looks, is the way they act. Body language and how you carry yourself makes up a much higher percentage of what someone else thinks than how you look. Learn to control that, and you get the keys to the kingdom, as it were. :)

Yeah, I get that other things play a role in how one interprets people, but honestly I don't have a masculine demeanor.  I'm not saying my voice or mannerisms are like a woman's, but they do deviate from a typical straight guy in many ways.  I guess I don't know how to be anything other than myself nor do I care to even try.  I like me and am comfortable with how I act or behave.  Sure I want to change how I look and need much more practice on my voice, but the idea of pretending to be a typical guy is very uncomfortable to me.  Whenever I tried, I just felt like a robot and hated living.  Like every movement was thought in advance and needed to be controlled.  I'm much more comfortable expressing myself as I am.  It's just that tends to attract attention along with my appearance and sometimes that makes me feel awkward.  Like I'm not ready for everyone to know that I'm trans, but hell I'm not doing anything to hide it at all.  I don't know what people see, but I do know I'm not really passing one way or the other.  Of course that will change in time, but it makes the awkward stage all the more harder.

Quote from: JamesG on March 16, 2014, 03:14:06 PM
Which is the point. You want to temporarily "kill" some of the feminization you've achived and be "Serious Professional Guy" for a while right?  Just an idea.

Actually, I'm not articulating this properly.  It's not that I want to reverse the feminization.  I guess I just want to be able to blend better until I can go full time.  And I want to be able to secure employment as male first and then come out, but I don't want to make any regressive changes to my increasingly feminine appearance either.  Then again, I'm asking to have things both ways and that's not possible. 

Quote from: 930310 on March 16, 2014, 02:40:08 PM
Is that something to feel sorry for? She should feel happy that her transition is going so well and that people read her as female.
And it's also a price to pay with transition. If you want to take hormones to alter your appearance it will happen.
All we can do is be happy for her and that her transition is going well. Then that these situations occur is something that we must live with.
I wish you the best of luck learningtolive!

You're right.  I should be more happy than anything.  In fact, I am.  In many ways things are playing more into my favor day by day.  I guess I'm just over-thinking it because I'm so close to finalizing things, yet I feel so far because of some of the roadblocks (financial, emotional, physical). In any event, this stage won't last forever and even this awkward phase is much better than what life used to be like.  Things are looking up in many ways and people are surprisingly nicer/sweeter even though I feel so awkward and constantly feel clocked.  It's hard to explain. 

Quote from: Just Shelly on March 16, 2014, 03:41:05 PM
LTL I'm sorry to tell you this but you are at the very awkward part of transition, you may get gendered male and 5 minutes later gendered female.

I think you can pass a a boy in the pic you posted...not saying you look entirely like one but in situations where you need to you should be able too but with some strange looks from others. With anyone that knows you somewhat personally they may see something different but there brain will only see a guy. Even if you are presenting female....get ready for some of these types. For others its one or two quick markers that will give them their impression.

In my andro stage I was gawd awful ugly, but I was getting gendered female more then male....and mostly at the wrong times when not expecting it. Sometimes it was someone in a checkout lane behind me referring to me as she, sometimes at one of my children's school functions. Many of these instances I looked pretty shabby I wasn't shaved many times or was covered in paint and grime....and if I did try to look a little more feminine I probably looked like a poorly dressed CD.

I know exactly how you feel when trying to seek employment at this stage. I know of one job I didn't get because the interviewer thought I was the girl that had the next appointment but just showed up early. I was looking nothing like a woman, the only thing was that my hair was longer. I had on slacks, dress shirt (I think a tie), dress shoes and a mans wool coat. After she realized her mistake I felt as if I was doing something wrong....like it was my fault.

I think this is the kind of stuff you are fearing, and I'm not going to tell you it doesn't happen. But even if these people are not treating you in an unfair discriminating way....they still may be befuddled enough to pass you by....especially when there are many other candidates. I think this is why it may be better to move things along faster, like name change. This doesn't mean you have to go fulltime, but at least you could present the correct gender at interviews.

This still will not solve all matters. Even if your name and gender are legally changed there is still your past that will come up. At least though this can be explained further in the interview process, and not in the initial one where first impressions are very important. I still have problems finding employment even though my legal gender is female and my legal name is Shelly ****...mostly because so much background information is found out ahead of time...even though employers are not allowed to do background checks they can do much preliminary research to find out more about you. I think this is one reason I don't even get initial interviews.

All in all though I feel my chances are better than if they thought a women showed up for what was suppose to be a man.....like I said this can throw off even the most caring compassionate person.

I do have many many weird instances that happened during this stage. Most I can laugh about now....but when they were happening I either didn't realize it until further into the situation or it was at very awkward situations.

Exactly.  I see a major difference in how some people view trans people and sometimes it's not for the best.  Like I know I can go into an interview that should have gone well, but my appearance will out me in a second.  How will that employer feel?  Likely not good because we aren't necessarily the most loved minority and we are often ridiculed.  And even if I were to be seen as female instead of trans despite my male history, I do notice that younger women aren't always taking as seriously by men (not saying all guys as there are many great and respectful guys out there).   I'm seeing this now even prior to full time and presenting the right way.  Just by proxy of having a feminine appearance and  mannerisms, some men talk down to me and treat me like a kid.  Either that or they look at me like "what a queer".  Again not all of them are like that nor is that the case in my current work environment in any way, but I'm seeing it happening more with strangers and it's hard to prove yourself in that setting.  I guess I just don't know how to approach the employment situation while in this awkward phase and people are seeing me differently.  And it's happening because I'm no longer able to conceal the fact that I'm transitioning.  Perhaps I just need to learn to adapt to changing social perceptions?  I just want some guaranteed financial stability and then I'll be set.  The other stuff can be taken on with time and experience. 

I know I'm not making much sense.  I'm just feeling a lot of things all at once and getting it out. 

Just own that space. I mean regardless of what gender people see you as, be confident in you. It's the only way i can cope atm i suppose. I think someone actually called me a ->-bleeped-<- to his friend on the tube platform, whilst i was in my most masculine garb (aka suit and tie) and i was like and what? Heck i even try and make concessions for these people, trying to make them feel more comfortable and at ease by broadcasting through deliberate acting that they should view me as male. Sometimes i wonder if they think i am FtM. Can't satisfy everyone though, and at the end of the day if you look androgynous or you fear people see you as trans, the best thing to do, especially in an interview scenario is to be comfortable in your own presentation, regardless of what they make think of it. Above all else they want to hire someone who is competent and capable of doing the job well.

Quote from: castle of glass on March 16, 2014, 05:29:33 PM
Just own that space. I mean regardless of what gender people see you as, be confident in you. It's the only way i can cope atm i suppose. I think someone actually called me a ->-bleeped-<- to his friend on the tube platform, whilst i was in my most masculine garb (aka suit and tie) and i was like and what? Heck i even try and make concessions for these people, trying to make them feel more comfortable and at ease by broadcasting through deliberate acting that they should view me as male. Sometimes i wonder if they think i am FtM. Can't satisfy everyone though, and at the end of the day if you look androgynous or you fear people see you as trans, the best thing to do, especially in an interview scenario is to be comfortable in your own presentation, regardless of what they make think of it. Above all else they want to hire someone who is competent and capable of doing the job well.

makes a lot of sense

At my age (49 going on 50) ya just don't care too much about what other people think. I go out as me, whether that's gussied up or in sweats, with or without makeup, etc. I've found when you have this attetude and confidence in yourself everybody see's me as just another middle aged lady who may or may not be feeling her best today -depending on how I'm dressed of course. ;)

Quote from: learningtolive on March 16, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
Actually, I'm not articulating this properly.  It's not that I want to reverse the feminization.  I guess I just want to be able to blend better until I can go full time.  And I want to be able to secure employment as male first and then come out, but I don't want to make any regressive changes to my increasingly feminine appearance either.  Then again, I'm asking to have things both ways and that's not possible. 

Naw, you did fine.  I was just presenting a "nu-cler" option that you might not have thought of. :)

Quote from: learningtolive on March 15, 2014, 12:50:17 PM
Hey everyone,

Sorry to bother everyone with this, but it's something I'm really dying to know and a tad different than my last few threads. ........................ Every single time I walk out of the house or interact with other people, I keep wondering whether they know or suspect something ..........................
P.S.  Sorry for my insanity, but we all have our own individual struggles and you know how much anxiety I get. 

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/13171050413_2040f417ca_z.jpg)

From your posting, along with your picture, I had trouble decieing whether you are MTF or FTM.  I guess that is because your photo looks more FEMALE and that would be how I would first view you.

You could possibly pass as either female or male; however presenting less question when presenting as female.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 15, 2014, 01:26:28 PM
If you dress in male clothing and speak like a male, people are going to gender you male, and have no suspicions of transness. If you dressed in female clothing, people would probably gender you female.

I agree with this. To me, I would gender you as male on the street. Not tryng to hurt your feelings, I'm being honest. I mean you're wearing the male uniform...again lol: button down shirt and a tee. There's not makeup, you could use your brows thinned some, but if you tried to present as female I think you would pass. I can't be sure until I see you dressed as female. I never think I pass. I think people are constantly saying stuff. But yesterday I met two girls. One asked what the deal with my ex was and if he was my BF. The other just flat our liked me and now wants to be besties. In my head, I'm all, these girls must think I'm a freak. But, in reality, they thought of me as female and never questioned it. And we had long coversations and these girls were not the type to hold things back. They were tough chicks. I'm from Philly, so there's a lot of that here. Just like the other day I ws walking to get something from the Chinese store, and there were like 10 drunk corner boys in there (a corner boy is someone who sells drugs, I live(d) in a rough area and I'm like F++k, Fu*k, F^Ck. But, yet I walk in, and the guy who was in line was all " You go first baby, I don't mind waiting." There was no laughing or whispering and these people would prolly love to kill a trannsexual, but instead the guy was basically hitting on me and I kinda ran out with a "bye, thanks so much for letting me go first."

I had a point. Oh yeah, it's all about presentation. Sorry, I know people love to say confidence but if you look like a female, talk like a female, walk and act like a female, just because you're so self-conscious doesn't get ya read as trans. if that were the case, most cis girls would be read as trans. Why? Because society places unobtainable pedestals of prettiness that no one can live up to, sans Kate Upton. So many women are self-conscious and lack confidence. And when they are confident, you get read as a Biotch. I know, cause I get called that a lot if I speak my mind...

I understand your money woes, but save all of it and move out. Now. it sounds like this is a temp job and then you're going to go for another job as male. And dress male? Where will it end? There has to be a point where you say, enough is enough, I'm going to be myself. Being trans isn't as big as a deal as everyone makes it out to be on this board vis a vis other people. It is a big deal but your average person couldn't care less and the more authentic you are, the better people like you cause people like people who have the courage to be themselves.

I hope I wasn't to harsh, ya know I love you, but sooner or later your going to have to take that leap. No time like the present or asap. You can go out on weekends right? Why not pack a bag of female clothes and change at the train station and hop on the LIRR or whatever it's called up the in LI

I'm kind of in the same situation as you also waiting for the right time and hesitating to go full time. Questioning if I'm able to pass as a woman. Wondering if people start to notice and sometimes imagining things when they stare. I'm also waiting to get a job first because I think it will be harder afterwards. I also have an androgynous look and the long hair might confuse some people but I think how you present yourself and how you dress will decide how people will perceive you as either male or female.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 17, 2014, 12:42:28 PMAnd when they are confident, you get read as a Biotch. I know, cause I get called that a lot if I speak my mind...

I thought that was a compliment in Phily?   ^-^

You do make a good point. A picture says a thousand words, but its just a still image.  Someone's persona (and gender) is the sum of both how they look, posture, mannerisms, and what they say. 

And then you also have to account for human decency. Even if someone does read you as female and outs you. If you tell them that you want to be read as male most people will have a understanding for this.
This depends on where you live and some areas are more "backwards" than others.

That's amazing that those pictures are of your male presentation!!!  I actually think you look far more female than male in your male presentation, and the only time i would question that is if you were dressed in male attire. 

I think too that the more you practice at it by going places the easier it gets

Male fail!

You look like a pretty woman.

You look like a boy.

But I bet if you put on some makeup and changed your clothes you would cross over to the other side easy.

LTL you have the same problem that I have. If I let my hair down and style it at all I go into complete male fail mode. At work I keep it up in a pony tail and do my best to keep my bangs tucked behind my ears when they get a little unruly. Even though I don't wear any makeup at all in male mode the effects of laser hair removal and HRT have made it to where my facial features and skin tone are very feminine in appearance. So much so that a few days ago I had to present male around my niece at a little event and my sister absolutely hates me right now because I'm destroying her "perfect" world with my transgenderness but I am trying to do my best to salvage my relationship with her and her husband so one day I can be fully out to their kids and not have to go into hiding when I go full time. Well anyways while at the little function the very instant my sister saw me she said REALLY in a mean and hateful tone and just walked away and didn't say another word to me for the rest of the night till we got to my parents house. What me and my parents thought was that she was mad that I had my hair down while wearing all males clothes presenting mostly male. Turns out she was 100% sure I was wearing makeup when I wasn't and while we were there I noticed other women looking and pointing at me. It's obvious to me that with my hair down I fail as a male which honestly I'm absolutely happy is happening.

How many of us look completely female with male clothes, no makeup and doing next to nothing to our hair and eyebrows? You could pass as an effeminate male if you walk and talk that way, or as an androgynous woman. However, you could easily pass for female with just a V-neck or boat neck top, shaped eyebrows and a little more feminine 'do. That being said, you're wasting your time hon, thinking you're going to 'be ready' someday to live full time. It's like a couple trying to 'be ready' to have children, but they can't until they have enough money, their own house, etc. You just have to step out into the thin air of living female, and after the first few minutes, hours and days of going from petrified, to scared sh*tless, to fearful, to careful, I promise you the most exhilarating life experience ever. And the best part is it just keeps getting better; your looks, movements, voice, demeanor and final realization you're living how you were always meant to, as a sweet, nice, caring and wonderful young lady. Hugs, Mira

SUPER MALE FAIL imo. There are females that have a lot of masculine features face wise and in your face I don't see any.. I have noticed though that the more of a serious blank look females have when we take photos. The more masculine those photos look if that makes sense..

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on March 18, 2014, 02:44:53 AM
SUPER MALE FAIL imo. There are females that have a lot of masculine features face wise and in your face I don't see any.. I have noticed though that the more of a serious blank look females have when we take photos. The more masculine those photos look if that makes sense..

I don't really follow...

Do you mean that the more neutral you look the more masculine you appear?

I see the femaleness lurking beneath. Maybe it is time to go fulltime.

If you are not ready yet. I would change to a more male haircut. Keep the long hair but just a more male style. You would have to trust your hairdresser. Grow a slight beard shadow and wear baggy clothes.

As someone allready mentioned, when you're as a boy have your hair tied up in a ponytail because it's less frowned upon then have it hanging loose.

Quote from: mariaey on March 18, 2014, 03:36:09 AM
If you are not ready yet. I would change to a more male haircut. Keep the long hair but just a more male style. You would have to trust your hairdresser. Grow a slight beard shadow and wear baggy clothes.

Um... isn't that a bit counter-intuitive? I mean, there's hiding your transition from people, and then there's just blatantly going backwards.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 18, 2014, 10:28:17 AM
Um... isn't that a bit counter-intuitive? I mean, there's hiding your transition from people, and then there's just blatantly going backwards.

I agree with you. Growing a beard would just feel awful for her and it would only make her feel bad about herself.
There really isn't much someone can do at this stage. It's mostly clothing and avoiding makeup/doing your hair that will give you a more "male" appearance.

Quote from: 930310 on March 16, 2014, 02:40:08 PM
Is that something to feel sorry for? She should feel happy that her transition is going so well and that people read her as female.
And it's also a price to pay with transition. If you want to take hormones to alter your appearance it will happen.
All we can do is be happy for her and that her transition is going well. Then that these situations occur is something that we must live with.
I wish you the best of luck learningtolive!

hmm? oh it was a tease, because I know LtL is transitioning.

In all honesty LtL I really do see only female, your features are very soft, wide eye, long hair. I mean you could possibly pass for a very feminine looking guy, since not sure how you look full body. Face alone is very female!

Are you going to have a life sized 2D photo of your face attached to your real face for interviews? We only see one angle of you, so wonder if this is the goal.  :P You look androgynous, but lack of female grooming places you in male quarters. From face on, you have potential to pass easily.

You will probably require these soon.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FMTYwMFgxNjAw%2Fz%2FFMAAAMXQfvlSl6ro%2F%24_35.JPG%3Fset_id%3D880000500F&hash=6ae7b9825134eb8a37aa6f0d290140966b5becb5)

First of all, I thought no way do you look male. Then, reading on, I realised you were not FtM.
Gosh, you make a very beautiful woman just as you are. Some women can look so sexy in a man's shirt. That's you. Go girl!

Quote from: Miranda Catherine on March 18, 2014, 02:44:14 AM
How many of us look completely female with male clothes, no makeup and doing next to nothing to our hair and eyebrows? You could pass as an effeminate male if you walk and talk that way, or as an androgynous woman. However, you could easily pass for female with just a V-neck or boat neck top, shaped eyebrows and a little more feminine 'do. That being said, you're wasting your time hon, thinking you're going to 'be ready' someday to live full time. It's like a couple trying to 'be ready' to have children, but they can't until they have enough money, their own house, etc. You just have to step out into the thin air of living female, and after the first few minutes, hours and days of going from petrified, to scared sh*tless, to fearful, to careful, I promise you the most exhilarating life experience ever. And the best part is it just keeps getting better; your looks, movements, voice, demeanor and final realization you're living how you were always meant to, as a sweet, nice, caring and wonderful young lady. Hugs, Mira

I agree with Miranda Catherine. At some stage you've just got to go for it, and there's no time like the present. You seem to want to get a good job first and then transition. Why not transition first and then get a good job? I feel it would work so much better that way. By doing it that way round, you're not going to feel awkward at work after transitioning.
Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
You've got so much going for you, you've got it made.
Unless you're 6ft 6ins tall, you've got nothing to stop you living your dream.
I was thinking Jodi Foster, too.

I would read you as female without a second thought, but if a coworker (or you) told me you were a boy, I wouldn't suspect that you're transgender. I hope that helps a bit.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 15, 2014, 12:50:17 PM
Hey everyone,

Sorry to bother everyone with this, but it's something I'm really dying to know and a tad different than my last few threads. ........................ Every single time I walk out of the house or interact with other people, I keep wondering whether they know or suspect something ..........................
P.S.  Sorry for my insanity, but we all have our own individual struggles and you know how much anxiety I get. 

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3781/13171050413_2040f417ca_z.jpg)

I would like to be able to look that feminine. Keep that look and forget the makeup, it will only make you look rediculous.

Please clarify your status: genetic female, genetic male, male to female, or female to male.

Quote from: mac1 on March 18, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
I would like to be able to look that feminine. Keep that look and forget the makeup, it will only make you look rediculous.

Please clarify your status: genetic female, genetic male, male to female, or female to male.

LTL has stated that she's MTF so that's her status.

Anyway I wanted to clarify LTL on my earlier post. When I say you look like a boy I mean a boy literally. You look like 14/15 or something in that pic, at least to me. Just in case you thought I was using the word boy as an alternative to the word man. Which I most def ain't.

Thank you everyone for responding.  I can't reply to everyone as there is so much, but all of your words mean a lot.  Even though I'm struggling to see it myself (I suppose only time and experience can wear that off), it gives me a great amount of hope that I'll be okay.  I guess the fact that full time is almost here and no longer a distant goal is sort of a rude awakening.  It's taught me that it's about here and sooner or later I'm going to have to face the fears I've been wanting to avoid.  But I can't avoid them forever.  God, maybe my therapist has a point about me starting up effexor and klonopin to offset the initial "oh my god, I'm doing this, how does everyone see me fears/anxiety", lol.   

Quote from: Caroline2000 on March 18, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
First of all, I thought no way do you look male. Then, reading on, I realised you were not FtM.
Gosh, you make a very beautiful woman just as you are. Some women can look so sexy in a man's shirt. That's you. Go girl!

I agree with Miranda Catherine. At some stage you've just got to go for it, and there's no time like the present. You seem to want to get a good job first and then transition. Why not transition first and then get a good job? I feel it would work so much better that way. By doing it that way round, you're not going to feel awkward at work after transitioning.
Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
You've got so much going for you, you've got it made.
Unless you're 6ft 6ins tall, you've got nothing to stop you living your dream.
I was thinking Jodi Foster, too.

On the job front, I really wonder if you have a point.  On the one hand, I have all my legal docs as male and all my history is in that as well.  But on the other hand, maybe it's not as impossible for a transitioning woman to find work during the early phase.  I'm just very scared because I'm seeing everyone around my age either becoming very succesful or in the process of developing a great career.   It's been hard enough for me to find non-temp work, so I don't want to jinx it further.  But perhaps I'm overlooking some things.  I'm got to do some research about job searching when your documents don't meet your presentation. 

@joannadark, don't worry about being harsh.  You are making sense.  I think the delaying nature isn't totally about me being ready, but me avoiding my fears.  It's weird because as excited as I am to live as female 24/7, I'm also scared of the unknown.  As upsetting as my current situation is, there's a comfortable familiarity to it even if it depresses me.  I know that sounds odd, but I've never been one to really go for what I want in life.  This is all new and hard, but also rewarding all at once. 

About going into somewhere in Manhatten to experiment, that's my plan.  I'm going to see if I can rally up some friends to come with me (I'd rather my first time out be with some friends).  I've been avoiding this, but I got to do it at some point.  Hell, I'm tired of delaying my life and ignoring my own inner feelings all the time.  Though I am going to see about that klonopin beforehand, lol. 

Learning to Live, can I say something? Just because I feel like even though we don't know each other well, I still feel like I care about your wellbeing.

At the end of the day..and this isn't directec at you specifically, but everyone..nobody cares. People don't care about you or your gender or anyone elses 9 times out of 10. People are lazy and they WANT to believe what you're telling them, so if you pass, even if not perfectly, people will probably look right through you. There a lots of transwomen on here a LOT less passable than you taking much bigger leaps..not a criticism, just a fact. So unless you legit sound like James Earl Jones and have the grace of a quarterback (which I highly doubt), you WILL pass with maybe a bit if makeup, some cute clthes and a brush. You'll just be an average, cute 20 something girl.

Ish, I know sound like a hypocrite, but I'm actually the best person to give this advice cuz YEAH, I have let fear hold me back. I have let not wanting to take a step forward force me to take 5, 10, whatever steps back.

And yeah, if we're being honest and sane, okay yeah I am blessed with fairyish features and a high pitched voice which makes passing realistically a breeze, for me. But despite that I still let fear conquer me more than once. I took chances to move forward in the right direction and used them to make my life harder...all cuz it was easier not facing my fears and failing because I didn't tr at ALL, than it was to accept that no matter what happened trying itself was the most important part, to begin with.

And now here I am. I've crossed this mythical "fulltime" border and really? Life has gone on! You say "learning to live"...really that's all going fulltime IS. People on this board make so much of it, but it really just IS. Its not a grand event, it just happens. And then for better or worse there's color where there was absence of, before. And now I'm just Abby. Same struggles, just with the added benefit of sense of self, for the first time ever. Going fulltime isn't earth shattering, its starting a new chapter, and after a while you almost start to forget you're even transgender.

Anyway that's all. We're given contrast for a reason and the easier path is badically NEVER the right one when we're faced with these important trials. And they never end. So either build up the habit of learning to DEAL or be okay with the reality that you will never really have a life.

Your choice. Also, sexy straight guys. Don't forget them.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 18, 2014, 07:40:37 PM
Learning to Live, can I say something? Just because I feel like even though we don't know each other well, I still feel like I care about your wellbeing.

At the end of the day..and this isn't directec at you specifically, but everyone..nobody cares. People don't care about you or your gender or anyone elses 9 times out of 10. People are lazy and they WANT to believe what you're telling them, so if you pass, even if not perfectly, people will probably look right through you. There a lots of transwomen on here a LOT less passable than you taking much bigger leaps..not a criticism, just a fact. So unless you legit sound like James Earl Jones and have the grace of a quarterback (which I highly doubt), you WILL pass with maybe a bit if makeup, some cute clthes and a brush. You'll just be an average, cute 20 something girl.

Ish, I know sound like a hypocrite, but I'm actually the best person to give this advice cuz YEAH, I have let fear hold me back. I have let not wanting to take a step forward force me to take 5, 10, whatever steps back.

And yeah, if we're being honest and sane, okay yeah I am blessed with fairyish features and a high pitched voice which makes passing realistically a breeze, for me. But despite that I still let fear conquer me more than once. I took chances to move forward in the right direction and used them to make my life harder...all cuz it was easier not facing my fears and failing because I didn't tr at ALL, than it was to accept that no matter what happened trying itself was the most important part, to begin with.

And now here I am. I've crossed this mythical "fulltime" border and really? Life has gone on! You say "learning to live"...really that's all going fulltime IS. People on this board make so much of it, but it really just IS. Its not a grand event, it just happens. And then for better or worse there's color where there was absence of, before. And now I'm just Abby. Same struggles, just with the added benefit of sense of self, for the first time ever. Going fulltime isn't earth shattering, its starting a new chapter, and after a while you almost start to forget you're even transgender.

Anyway that's all. We're given contrast for a reason and the easier path is badically NEVER the right one when we're faced with these important trials. And they never end. So either build up the habit of learning to DEAL or be okay with the reality that you will never really have a life.

Your choice. Also, sexy straight guys. Don't forget them.

Thanks.  You're right in the end.  It probably won't be anywhere near earth shattering as I think (well, at least not in a bad way).  Though, I think I was foolish to think I could ignore the importance of some part time before going full time.  I now see why having a little experience under my wings is needed before trying to just take off.  I'm still very scared, but I have to get over it.  I'm still going to follow my plan of full time in June, but that doesn't mean I'm going to wait anymore from actually getting some experience.  I can't keep doing this to myself.  Hell, if I can get a job as female, maybe fulltime can even be pushed up.  Still, I have to keep working at not looking like Whalemina in everything I wear and find a way to get my social fear in check.  I'm sure experience, exercise, some meds and money will do the trick, lol.  And while I know that the meds sounds like a joke, but maybe I really do have to finally do something more intensive to handle my social phobia which my therapist recommended.  I'm getting there, but it's finally time to actually move towards it.  I'm just scared.  very scared.

Yeah, it would be nice to finally get to date.  It's sort of sad that I've never had any romance in my life for all these years.  I'd be surprised if any guys ever fell for me because the story of my life is that my crushes aren't into me, but I can hope. 

Quote from: learningtolive on March 18, 2014, 08:48:35 PM
Thanks.  You're right in the end.  It probably won't be anywhere near earth shattering as I think (well, at least not in a bad way).  Though, I think I was foolish to think I could ignore the importance of some part time before going full time.  I now see why having a little experience under my wings is needed before trying to just take off.  I'm still very scared, but I have to get over it.  I'm still going to follow my plan of full time in June, but that doesn't mean I'm going to wait anymore from actually getting some experience.  I can't keep doing this to myself.  Hell, if I can get a job as female, maybe fulltime can even be pushed up.  Still, I have to keep working at not looking like Whalemina in everything I wear and find a way to get my social fear in check.  I'm sure experience, exercise, some meds and money will do the trick, lol.  And while I know that the meds sounds like a joke, but maybe I really do have to finally do something more intensive to handle my social phobia which my therapist recommended.  I'm getting there, but it's finally time to actually move towards it.  I'm just scared.  very scared.

Yeah, it would be nice to finally get to date.  It's sort of sad that I've never had any romance in my life for all these years.  I'd be surprised if any guys ever fell for me because the story of my life is that my crushes aren't into me, but I can hope.

Fear is the soil for growth so use that fact to your advantage. It sounds like you're just thinking too much...planning is good, but overthinking is actually the enemy of productivity.

I'm not going to write out another long response for one simple reason: it doesn't help. At the end words are just words and thoughts are just thoughts. Transition is about feeling and action...feeling female and embodying femininity. Just DO, I'm not saying put yourself in harms way but I see you always write so many words...thats good occasionally but in the long run not healthy. Take a leap grrl!

Good luck!

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 18, 2014, 09:05:02 PM
Fear is the soil for growth so use that fact to your advantage. It sounds like you're just thinking too much...planning is good, but overthinking is actually the enemy of productivity.

I'm not going to write out another long response for one simple reason: it doesn't help. At the end words are just words and thoughts are just thoughts. Transition is about feeling and action...feeling female and embodying femininity. Just DO, I'm not saying put yourself in harms way but I see you always write so many words...thats good occasionally but in the long run not healthy. Take a leap grrl!

Good luck!

Your right.  I know you are.  I just don't want to acknowledge it as it hits hard.  This is very very hard for me, but I should be past the fear by now.  I guess for me, I'm only able to take steps at the moment rather than leaps.  Granted I've taken plenty of small steps, but it hasn't been enough and simply making this place the sole extension for support and my transition is a mistake.  I just don't know how to get to the next stage in many ways.  I know it has to come from within, I just really don't know how to not be a coward anymore and I'm a bit terrified about finances as my situation is a bit bleak.  You've given me a lot to think about and your posts were very productive.  Thanks. 

By the way everyone, I understand I'm annoying with this stuff and I apologize for that.  I'm just really trying to get passed all this in my own way, but I realize I can be my own worst enemy in many ways.

you need to jump in the water. It's really not that cold

This is to LTL from LTL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfwwoSwtbLc

What's interesting is yesterday I heard these most beautiful song lyrics that were so refreshing to hear, they go "oh, dear, out here, everybody stumbles on fear, who cares if you're scared, everyone is on their own" and thaaat is truth. At the end we're all on deeply personal journeys. Some are lucky enough to find people who will love us despite the pain and sadness but at the end the scariest things are the ones we have to face alone.

People say "it gets better" and when people are afraid they floock to those videos and these support groups, thinking they can bury themselves in other people and hide from what's scaring them, but in the end none of those people reaally care. I mean, we do, but to an extent. I want what's best for you cuz you're a good person and deserve it, but in the end I'm going to shut off my tablet, pull out some wine, watch Netflux, text this guy I'm going out with and forget about LtL, just like the rest of the users on here.

Writing "you can do it!" is easy and feels good for the writer, but its damaging for you. Writing this is very hard for me atm. And nobody is mad at you for being scared and trying to find support, and if they are they're just stupid. But in the end...everyone is on their own, so even if you're scared, you have to grab what you want by the balls and MAKE it yours. If you do, good for you, you'll have a good life, you have buckets of potential..if you don't, really nobody will care but you, which you'll see is the way it's always been. You have everything to gain and absolutrly nithing to lose.

Okay no mire advice, haha, good luck babe!

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 18, 2014, 10:09:00 PM
What's interesting is yesterday I heard these most beautiful song lyrics that were so refreshing to hear, they go "oh, dear, out here, everybody stumbles on fear, who cares if you're scared, everyone is on their own" and thaaat is truth. At the end we're all on deeply personal journeys. Some are lucky enough to find people who will love us despite the pain and sadness but at the end the scariest things are the ones we have to face alone.

People say "it gets better" and when people are afraid they floock to those videos and these support groups, thinking they can bury themselves in other people and hide from what's scaring them, but in the end none of those people reaally care. I mean, we do, but to an extent. I want what's best for you cuz you're a good person and deserve it, but in the end I'm going to shut off my tablet, pull out some wine, watch Netflux, text this guy I'm going out with and forget about LtL, just like the rest of the users on here.

Writing "you can do it!" is easy and feels good for the writer, but its damaging for you. Writing this is very hard for me atm. And nobody is mad at you for being scared and trying to find support, and if they are they're just stupid. But in the end...everyone is on their own, so even if you're scared, you have to grab what you want by the balls and MAKE it yours. If you do, good for you, you'll have a good life, you have buckets of potential..if you don't, really nobody will care but you, which you'll see is the way it's always been. You have everything to gain and absolutrly nithing to lose.

Okay no mire advice, haha, good luck babe!

^This. She's right, in the end everyone goes back to their normal life. In fact, all I want to do now is go to sleep so I can cuddle with my pillow and pretend it's my on-off-on-off-on BF. It seems sucky but it's much better than nothing, much much better, and I got here by going out, making myself approachable, and boom, not it's almost our one year ani and we're going to my fave place: NYC. I also didn't give up. It would be easy to play the woe is me no one could love a drama queen, hermie-to-female card but I played the no, no, no you can't go card and it worked! Why? Cause it's what I wanted just like jussmoi4nao said. You have to try. It owulda been easy last June to walk away and say I'm going to get hurt, I better hide. I coulda did it in December when I really messed up, but instead of feeling sorry and playing Sahemful by Maroon 5, I didn't give up. My point is: ditch those stupid clothes and go buy a Master Glaze blush stick by FACESTUDIO cuz it's the best. Oh and buy some other stuff too. Seriously, this blush is something else. it's all I thought it would be and more. I'm goping to go buy every shade. Oh and get a FIT ME shine-free foundation stick too and some liner and shadow and a skinnies and a top and go OUT!

I see alot of my younger self in LTL, which is why I don't mind helping her out any way I can. I think though jussmoi4nao you have helped her out alot as you are near the same age. I've already posted concerning her photo so I'll not repeat myself. I just wanted to say this: We are here to support each other. Not promote negativity. Many of us need more support than others. And those of you like I who are older must remember that we have more life experiences and can really help our younger sisters out by sharing them. And that's what we should be doing no matter how many times we read something. Have some of us forgotten what it's like to be young going through this? I'll leave this there.

LTL you look great. I sure wish I had my youth back, lol! Hang in there girl it looks like your in good hands. ;)

Ally

Quote from: FA on March 15, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
I'm kinda seeing a brunette Jodie Foster.

Exactly agreed. You can go full-time whenever you want from now.
But if you would need to present yourself as a male, well... you might need to hold you hair in the back.