Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Not at all ........  ::)

hi nero...i think most of the things all women suffer with transwomen suffer with in spades.  remember, we "passed" as men, we weren't men.  body image?  gracious...what could be worse then having a male one!  <yuck...ugh...cough...spit>

sorry, guys....just one girl's opinion.

As far as self-image goes, no, it never helped in the slightest way. I've always been somewhere between horrified and totally uncaring about my appearance, even when I've done my best to look good as a guy. I never developed an eating disorder or quite the same kind of body-image problems that a lot of girls end up with; I developed other problems instead. And while I have always been able to get away with being more assertive in conversations, it's often left me feeling like a bitch.

But there's one area that growing up male has definitely helped with: mathematics. While I come from a family in which there was no question that boys and girls are equally capable of learning math, my sisters received a lot more negative feedback from society regarding their math education than I ever did. I never got the social pressure to avoid the subject that so many women get. In addition, being something of a social outcast (largely because of my gender issues) made it perfectly okay to be as good at math as I wanted to be, since I'd be considered a nerd or geek or whatever no matter what. So growing up male and being trans both contributed to an environment that encouraged me to learn math.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 16, 2008, 06:15:02 PM

But there's one area that growing up male has definitely helped with: mathematics. While I come from a family in which there was no question that boys and girls are equally capable of learning math, my sisters received a lot more negative feedback from society regarding their math education than I ever did. I never got the social pressure to avoid the subject that so many women get. In addition, being something of a social outcast (largely because of my gender issues) made it perfectly okay to be as good at math as I wanted to be, since I'd be considered a nerd or geek or whatever no matter what. So growing up male and being trans both contributed to an environment that encouraged me to learn math.

That's one I never thought about. Thanks for bringing it up.
It's so true that girls aren't really encouraged in that subject and it's generally a given (to society) that girls won't be as good as boys at math or be interested in it for that matter. Another example of gender learning stereotypes that have real effects on children.

I'd say just as susceptible, and regarding assertiveness I'd have to say in my case I was always  more comfortable being passive and I've gotten the impression that might be a common trait amongst transwomen.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PMDo you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police.

No. On the contrary. By nature I have been shy and retiring my whole life. If anything, my basic lack of assertiveness was aggravated by being forced into a male upbringing, where the expectation on me to be aggressive felt so wrong, all I did was hide myself and bury my assertiveness all the more. The only way I have been able to develop assertiveness, after coming out and transitioning, is through feminist empowerment, same as any other woman. Being my true female self is the basis for all my personal empowerment. So the only way this could work is when I approached it as a woman. In male mode, it had been a total abortion.

QuoteAnother typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

Nero-- are you kidding me? Please say you were only joking. Dude we are TS. Nothing aggravates my body image dysphoria worse than having the wrong f#&%ing body. This is something I still need work on. In various senses of the word.

Hello, sweetheart,

Have you lost your mind? :)

Body-image is one of the absolute deepest difficulties for most of us, Jane excepted, of course. :D

Assertiveness? Hypatia has pretty much covered that. One definitely isn't assertive when she's walking around in a body she feels totally uncomfortable with. In fact, transitioning brought me more actual assertiveness than I ever had as a male-bodies person.

I got left behind on the Math as well which wasn't the best place to be when it came to statistical analysis in Grad School. But I suppose the B+s and the calculators and crib-feeds from Net got me through okay. Fortunately, if one can write, crib and weave a good essay with the appropriate language one can sometimes bluff her way through the hard parts and then put them behind her. *sigh* An ability to think is essential. :)

In that regard transition has been very helpful. Much easier to contemplate these days without the constant mish-mash of jumbled memes running around my brain.

How has it been helpful? In my work it's been helpful in hearing what my male clients say and following that into their thinking. Most have been rather amazed that a woman can understand some of their deepest difficulties and sources of those.

Also has helped, I think, some in just regular dealings with guys -- like one can often read the sub-text. Yet, that I think is endemic among women, and has to be. Afterall, as I keep saying when your part of a subservient class you learn to read the dominants and the social structures much better than the dominants do, simply as a matter of survival.

Nikki

Just as susceptible Nero, I mean we're women so yeah we're bound to fall into the same traps sooner or later.  Our minds our female so being forced to grow up as male beforehand didn't give us any kind of "one up," in my case it actually hindered me because I couldn't express myself fully and I was very sullen and withdrawn before I transitioned.  I have to agree with Hypathia, the only way I began to assert myself was through feminist empowerment.

Jenn

i don't get a lot of that stuff about how a woman can be so "in" on male feelings as anyone who gets a look into my feelings knows i'm trans.  it's such a large part of my experience as a human being i find it difficult to keep out of anything beyond the mundane.

by being part of diversity panels and giving talks about the trans-experince i came up with a little short story i use in my introduction.  i call it, "the mantribe".  it's a response to the question i always get..."so, you were a man...and now you are a woman?" 

essentially the story goes like this:  "no, i was never a man.  however; i was captured by their tribe as an infant and held for many years.  i was raised among them, as one of them.  i became familiar with their traits and habits and did my best to conform.  they weren't mean to me, they all treated me as one of them, the fact that i was captured from another tribe as an infant wasn't of concern to them, i was raised with them and as one of them.  but i was never at home there.  i didn't know for a long time of my birth tribe but i always suspected there was something different about me then my peers.  i found very little enthusiasm in myself about things that made the other boys tick.  i always felt distant, not quite right.  then i learned of my birth tribe...etc...etc...

this little analagous story connects with a lot of people, and i think it's really pretty accurate in the outcome.  the things i know about being a man are superficial, superimposed on a female nature.  however hard one tries to make an apple out of an orange, you might be able to paint it up and make it look pretty good, but inside it still tastes like an orange.

Answer to Nero's question: No, I acted as girl when I was living as boy. I just lived in denial.

But I'd be willing to bet you got some knowledge and insight in all those years in the Marines, right, PJ?

N~

Quote from: pennyjane on October 17, 2008, 10:07:21 AM
i don't get a lot of that stuff about how a woman can be so "in" on male feelings as anyone who gets a look into my feelings knows i'm trans.  it's such a large part of my experience as a human being i find it difficult to keep out of anything beyond the mundane.

by being part of diversity panels and giving talks about the trans-experince i came up with a little short story i use in my introduction.  i call it, "the mantribe".  it's a response to the question i always get..."so, you were a man...and now you are a woman?" 

essentially the story goes like this:  "no, i was never a man.  however; i was captured by their tribe as an infant and held for many years.  i was raised among them, as one of them.  i became familiar with their traits and habits and did my best to conform.  they weren't mean to me, they all treated me as one of them, the fact that i was captured from another tribe as an infant wasn't of concern to them, i was raised with them and as one of them.  but i was never at home there.  i didn't know for a long time of my birth tribe but i always suspected there was something different about me then my peers.  i found very little enthusiasm in myself about things that made the other boys tick.  i always felt distant, not quite right.  then i learned of my birth tribe...etc...etc...

this little analagous story connects with a lot of people, and i think it's really pretty accurate in the outcome.  the things i know about being a man are superficial, superimposed on a female nature.  however hard one tries to make an apple out of an orange, you might be able to paint it up and make it look pretty good, but inside it still tastes like an orange.

That's a great way of putting things, Penny.  Thanks!


Jay

hi nicole.  knowledge, i'd say yes...insight?  i'm not really sure about that.  actually, i was never in the marines...i was in the army.  after my first tour of duty i wasn't really all that connected, i fell into a line of work that provided quite some distance from others.  as i said in "the big question" it was a great place to hide away and not be noticed.

it really is a great question nero asks...finding some answers, i suspect, might really be helpful in our everyday lives, so i think it's something good to ponder.

glad you get something from the story too, jay.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

I've had fairly severe anger management issues (even to the point where I've been known to physically attack someone who angered me enough, though I always pulled my punches so completely that I never hurt anyone, and often didn't even do more than act like I was going to hit them) since about age 7 (and I'll note that my gender dysphoric feelings started a little before that as well, though I didn't understand that's what they were). Aside from that, and to some extent because of that (I was often teased about my anger, especially since my earliest forms of release was just to "scream like a girl" rather than to hit, the hitting things came later after I was forced to supress the urge to scream as a release), I'm an incredibly shy and passive girl. I'll stand up for myself if it becomes necessary, and I'm more inclined to speak up if it's for someone else rather than myself, but I mostly just keep quiet and rather invisible (which is kinda funny since I stand a little over 6' tall). People easily forget I'm there, and I typically will do what I'm told unless I 1) don't comprehend what I've been told to do or 2) find the task/action/whatever so completely appalling that I cannot keep my mouth shut about it.

This has only become more and more true as I continue HRT. Within a month of starting HRT, my aggressiveness had been cut in half, thus taking the drive out of a lot of my previous "angry reactions." I am still having to work somewhat on my anger issues because it has become habit for me to react angrily to many things (as such, I will sometimes react in anger without ever actually feeling the anger).

Now, contrary to this, I'm very much like my mother, only with more knowledge (not bragging, she would confirm this if she were involved in this discussion >.< ). I am an incredibly stubborn bitch. Without testosterone, though, my stubbornness is less overt and more covert, though.

All in all, I'm shy, stubborn, passive, and bitchy. But only people who knew me before HRT (excluding a few like my best friend and boyfriend who have seen how HRT has helped me) consider me to be a confrontational and bitchy woman. People who've met me since then, unless influenced by others who knew me before, have been startled by my sudden bouts of bitchiness and merely attribute it to pms and rough days, which is at least half right.

QuoteAnother typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

As others have already said, body image is definitely an issue for us. I, personally, am "struggling" with my weight. For the past 8 years, I was in deep depression (not all of which caused by my gender dysphoria) and let myself get out of shape and gain weight. Now I'm in the process of losing that weight and getting into better shape, and while it's going very well, I still have bouts of depression over merely that aspect of my appearance. At other times, I start crying because I feel like I'll never be pretty enough. I don't know that I feel I have to be as gorgeous as Angelina Jolie or the like, but I want to at least be "pretty" and the thought of never reaching that point scares the hell out of me. I also occasionally will try to flat out starve myself when I feel like I'm not making progress on losing weight, though I've managed not to go that far for at least a couple months now.

QuoteThe above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

I can't think of any specific such struggles at the moment, but I would say I'm very much fully susceptible and have been all my life. I was never in tune with men at all. I never understood men, at least not the way men understand each other. I never could get along with them either, except in subservient "little girl" roles (such as one boy I knew who was a 6th/7th grader when I was a 5th/6th grader, and our relationship was more like little sister/older brother than anything else), and those were the better relationships. In most other cases, I was outcast from the boys and accepted into the girls' circles. The few extracurricular activities I took part in with boys, I wasn't being any different than a tomboy (though I'm definitely more femme than butch) and it was more to have people to do something with, and to make my dad happy.

I can honestly say that, even now, I don't understand men at all. My personal opinion of men is highly negative and likely based on the stereotypes that men themselves have reinforced in how they dealt with me, both when viewing me as male and when viewing me as female. Stereotypes of men being abusive, cruel, and shallow.

<giggle>  math?  are you kidding me?  i can't add two and two together and come up with the same answer twice in a row.  in that way i am very stereotypical and my male presentation hasn't helped one bit.  i'm just glad that i came along in the age of the calculator, without it i'm sure i would never have survived in the world of today.

however, i'm told i have pretty good taste in clothes...<blink, blink, blink>

I suppose that my education helped me.  But as I see it, I had everything working against me.  Somehow we survive.

Cindi

... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 01:02:05 AM

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Nope. It's just generally reversed and in many instances gets enforced with a violence that most girls don't experience as far as maintaining societal norms is concerned anyhow.

Nikki

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 01:02:05 AM

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Analogies are my forte ^_^ Thanks dude.

On the point of math...I've got a very high IQ (for what that's worth lol) and have always been innately good at every subject in school.

However, I did fail Trig 3 times, making me give up on my previous dream to be a Physicist. Now, I am very happily an English (Creative Writing) major with a Japanese minor who studies linguistics in her spare time and plans to attend law school eventually.

I've also always actually rather sucked at basic math. Give me something complex and I won't have trouble with it, but give me some simple little subtraction problems and I'm screwed. lmao In fact, it's only just recently that I've finally managed to master 8+5=13. ^^;

it does?  i'll try to remember that.  <giggle>

Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

sorry jesslee.  i didn't mean anything by it.  i'm just making fun of myself.  making fun of it is easier then dealing with it as a handicap, which it is.  my wife, annie, is pretty good at math too...thankfully.

i don't know why i'm just no good at it, i've heard theories about how strong brain side and weak side have something to do with it...but the truth is...i just ain't no good, it won't stay with me.  trig?  physics??  completely out of the question.  ok, algebra....that stinking subject has cost me an awful lot, you have to have some simple grasp of it to get into almost any program.  it's not that i haven't tried, i've taken several classes, remedial ones...it just won't stay with me.  i sometimes can figure out one problem...but then it seems like starting over from scratch for the next one.  it's frustrating!

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

That was my point as well as others' sweetheart. That society doesn't steer our girls towards math because of sexism.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Only insomuch as I understand men probably better than other women since I spent decades in their world.

As for assertiveness, I could never get that one right. I always ended up coming off as mean and mad when I tried to do the male assertiveness thing. The problem was I was trying to be assertive in a masculine way and that is just not me. Now I am learning to be assertive in a more feminine way, and that I understand and am comfortable with. Go figger.

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 02:12:00 PM

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
Honestly, the math issue seems a little sexist to me. My SO Ann has her masters in Mech engineering, she also double majored for her undergrad in Mech Engineering and Applied Mathematics.

I am O.K at math, in most of my higher math classes: Calc 1-3, physmath, DiffEQ, E-Math2, I finished at the top of my classes.

Ann however is much better than I am at math, and she is one of the most feminine girls that I have ever known (physically and psychologically), she likes shopping, fashion, cooking, (she even works part time in a well known store, just to get a discount on the newest styles of clothes and shoes).

So statistically she shouldnt be able to add 2+2 much less explain what a "Laplace-Transform" is or solve for "Gradient-Vectors" but she can.

I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

But to say that all women are terrible at Math and the ones that are good at it are abnormal and unfeminine, is just absurd.

That was my point as well as others' sweetheart. That society doesn't steer our girls towards math because of sexism.

Nero, you are so correct!

I honestly believe that the only reason Ann continued on in school was because she had a very strong Mother who was a civil engineer, and her father was an mech engineer.

They both encouraged her to pursue education in this field and when she had trouble with something they never told her she was not supposed to be good at it because she was "female".

She was shocked when she got her first job, because an older male engineer (who liked her, but also wanted to dominate her) told her she should think about going back to school and getting a MBA because Engineering is a "very male profession" and she would always have trouble fitting in.

I have also seen this attitude in the class-rooms where many engineering students and a few professors have made comments similar to the above.

They had no idea that I was not a male (psychologically, neurologically), so it was often very discouraging.

With the current situation in America, we need all the engineers we can get so equally encouraging girls and boys who show prospect in the area, must be done.

Society's attitude regarding this, needs to change!

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

That works both ways though.  I'm doing a maths phd and we have to tutor undergrads as part of that.
And its men's machoness that seems to make them less willing to listen and learn, and they are quite happy to pretend they know stuff when they blatantly don't.  That seems to make them less able to actually come out on top.  and guys and girls seem to quit equally when they can't do something, and both genders seem equally capable of learning the stuff!

But yes its completely sexist to think girls can't do maths, (and i like to think that i and the rest of us girls in the grad school prove that point)

Quote from: pennyjane on October 18, 2008, 01:51:38 PM
sorry jesslee.  i didn't mean anything by it.  i'm just making fun of myself.  making fun of it is easier then dealing with it as a handicap, which it is.  my wife, annie, is pretty good at math too...thankfully.

i don't know why i'm just no good at it, i've heard theories about how strong brain side and weak side have something to do with it...but the truth is...i just ain't no good, it won't stay with me.  trig?  physics??  completely out of the question.  ok, algebra....that stinking subject has cost me an awful lot, you have to have some simple grasp of it to get into almost any program.  it's not that i haven't tried, i've taken several classes, remedial ones...it just won't stay with me.  i sometimes can figure out one problem...but then it seems like starting over from scratch for the next one.  it's frustrating!

PJ, I did not take any offense from what you said, please dont think I was  ;)


I just hate to see a woman get treated like an Odd-Duck because they have a mathematical/scientific background, it is almost as bad as the "Old-Maid-Librarian" stereotype.


As for the math, I can undestand what you went though, it was very tough for me as well. (unlike my SO) I grew up very poor and worked (full time) from the 8th grade onward, I went to a very rundown poor highscool (thank god they finally closed it after 3 consecutive "F" ratings) that only taught Elementary Algebra.


When I started college I also had to begin with remedial (elementary algebra) math, I spent an extra year (3 semesters) trying to catch up with normal freshman level math, and then nearly 3 years of higher mathematics.


Just so you know, almost everybody has trouble remembering things. I was just talking with a friend who is a Phd. candidate working in "Condensed Matter Physics" and we were discussing one of his friends who finished his Phd. in Physics several years ago and took a job outside of the Engineering/Physics field.
He said that after being out of this for several years he has problems even doing simple "Integration", Just so you know, a physicist who cannot Integrate is like a Pilot who cannot see! So dont feel bad about not remembering things, because almost nobody can!

Posted on: October 18, 2008, 03:16:32 pm

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Quote from: jenny_ on October 18, 2008, 03:00:22 PM

Quote from: Jesslee on October 18, 2008, 01:26:07 PM
I think that math is one of those things that can be very stressful and time consuming to understand, and this is where a man's macho attitude can sometimes come out on top, if they dont understand something they will try until they do (or lie about it), and alot of girls (I have seen) will simply quit when it gets to difficult or stressful.

That works both ways though.  I'm doing a maths phd and we have to tutor undergrads as part of that.
And its men's machoness that seems to make them less willing to listen and learn, and they are quite happy to pretend they know stuff when they blatantly don't.  That seems to make them less able to actually come out on top.  and guys and girls seem to quit equally when they can't do something, and both genders seem equally capable of learning the stuff!

But yes its completely sexist to think girls can't do maths, (and i like to think that i and the rest of us girls in the grad school prove that point)

Hello Jenny congratulations on your achievement I hope that you do well, I also read recently that Phd's in Mathematics have the most stress free jobs for their pay! Pitty us poor Engineers (all work, no theory)  :(


If you notice I did mention that I have personally seen that men will "lie about" understanding it.



Also what I mean about coming out on top, is that most of what I have seen in this field is that "Perseverance" pays off. At the lower levels of college math the classes were almost always evenly divided between male/female.



however, once the curriculum began to get more challenging, I would notice that the males would be less likely to admit that they had trouble understanding it (and they could be very vocal about this), while I had girls actually tell me that they were about to start crying during tests, and this led many of them to think that they were the only ones who were having trouble. Add to this the fact that society says its O.K for a female to not understand Math/Science, then most of these girls felt that it was normal for them to have such trouble and would decide that an education in the Sciences/Mathematics/Engineering fields would not be possible for them.


I do not know how classes in England are statistically divided, but I can tell you that here in Florida, I personally seen that after calc-2, the majority shifted from female to male, and by the time I was in DiffEQ, and E-math2, the classrooms were over 90% male. Once again, this is not because females couldnt do it, I believe it is because they were encouraged to develop an "Apathetic" attitude towards this field of study!

The notion that girls couldn't do math was one I simply didn't get.  My mother holds an MS in the field.

For the original questions in this discussion I always felt my background was rather odd.  I have one sibling, born the same gender and only a couple years younger.  One would tend to think our youth experiences would be very similar, but that was not the case.  It's actually difficult to imagine them being more different.  His youth was one of a great deal of freedom, few duties, and little criticism, being allowed a great deal of free time and social contact throughout school age, and dating starting in 7th grade.   Mine was very limited freedom, an excessive load of duties, and constant criticism, with no real amount of non-family social contact, including dating, allowed until college (we were two years apart in school, so this meant my younger brother was allowed the freedoms while I was still denied them for several more years.)  My father ran a dairy farm so what I was assigned as "daily chores" was far beyond what most tend to think of that phrase implying, e.g. my summer days were spent running diesel tractors to mow or bale hay for 10-12 hours.  Academic achievements made a great example of the criticism; I got better grades but they were never good enough, e.g. I'd be criticized for only getting a 99% on an exam.  When it came to sibling rivalry, the balance tipped the same direction - I was always seen as the party in the wrong.

I was definitely required to be passive and permissive.  I was not told I had to be, in fact I received a conflicting message.  I was told I should be aggressive and stand up for myself, but I was punished every time I did so.  I'd say the view held by my parents was that I should be only when they approved, but an occasion in which I it was deemed acceptable never occurred.  On multiple occasions I was directly told my punishment was for failing to "just get along."

My only comparison to girls came from a cousin who lived nearby.  Although she did not enjoy the level my brother did, she enjoyed far more freedom than me.

It just goes to show you that stereotypes were meant to be broken. I was lousy at math in high school and college. I concentrated on art and  literature classes instead. But now, I have, on my own, mastered tha calculus of computer programming. I know c, c++, c#, pascal, BASIC and visual BASIC as well as the declarative languages of the web: HTML, CSS and XML. How did this happen? I take to programming like a duck to water, but don't ask me to do anything more than simple addition, subtraction, division and multiplication.

I still have not gotten how this happened.

QuoteBeing MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.
Deviousxen

"Hee, hee, hee." I laughed until I almost peed my panties when I read this post.

Wing Walker said the crappy shovel makes no difference if your dig site is in the sand.  She's like that, the one who will clean a barn full to the rafters with horse ->-bleeped-<- because she's sure that there's pony for her someplace in the mess.

Psssssst, I got a back hoe behind the house.

Cindy

Posted on: October 19, 2008, 03:04:23 am

---

Hi Tasha hon, obviously I can see that that you appear to be struggling with some type of problem. I pray that I am wrong but if I am correct then please feel free to contact me by PM and share some with me if you should so desire to.

Cindy 

My past has enabled me to change a tyre without flagging down a helpful male to assist me in my time of maidenly distress.

Darned Skirts *huff*

"Hee, hee, hee." Hi Rachael, I never tried that, do you think thy would stop to help an old lady?
Cindy takes walking stick, eye glasses, and white hair piece from under the seat.

Cindy

If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen!"

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo :P now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math :P

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 06:27:45 AM

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo :P now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math :P

Have to agree with you about the past.  Living a lie doesn't really get you very far, and was a waste of time.  And any way anything i've learnt over that time wasn't because i was "male".

and Rachael, your meant to be British, spell maths properly!!! :P

Quote from: jenny_ on October 19, 2008, 06:42:15 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 06:27:45 AM

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 05:32:58 AM
If your past does not inform your present, and help you in some way deal with it, you pretty much wasted your life to date.

All that math stuff is bull.  Some people - not male, or female, just people - are better at it than others.  That's all.

Im afraid to say DUH....

My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo :P now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

as for math, my housemate is doing her masters degree in math :P

Have to agree with you about the past.  Living a lie doesn't really get you very far, and was a waste of time.  And any way anything i've learnt over that time wasn't because i was "male".

and Rachael, your meant to be British, spell maths properly!!! :P

huh you mean math is plural in British?

Quote from: Nero on October 19, 2008, 07:04:10 AM
huh you mean math is plural in British?

Of cause.  We have soooo many more maths than you americans!  :P

lol but is it really plural?

Yes!

Its proper title is Mathematics, hence MATHS for short.

lol

Buffy

Notice that its still called mathematics when used in full in english-speaking countries

Yet the shortened form is math - singular and plural. Ah, English.

I have found that I am assertive when I need to be and I can sit back and watch how things happen other times.  But my parents taught myself and my sisters to be very independant and to stick up for ourselves.

On body image, well yeah as others have said, I've hated how I look, I've always had this image of who I was supposed to be in my head and I am not sure I will ever get that but I think I am slowly coming to terms with that.

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 06:27:45 AM
My past WAS a waste of time... i spent 20 years in limbo :P now im living, did i learn anything? men smell.

I'll second this, particularly for the first 20 years of my life.  I needed the next decade to deal with all the messed up stuff constantly thrown at me then.

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 04:58:57 AM
My past has enabled me to change a tyre without flagging down a helpful male to assist me in my time of maidenly distress.

Darned Skirts *huff*

Mum and I got a flat tire last semester at school. I was still pre-HRT at the time. We worked together to change the tire, but most of the work was done by mum. I mostly just read the instruction manual on how to change a tire on *that* car. >.>

Posted on: October 19, 2008, 07:28:45 pm

---

Quote from: Buffy on October 19, 2008, 07:22:56 AM
Yes!

Its proper title is Mathematics, hence MATHS for short.

lol

Buffy

Since when is it proper to abbreviate a word by taking the first four letters and then sticking the last letter on there? By that reasoning, Abbr. should be Abbre.

Likewise, there is no singular...you don't have a single mathematic. You have mathematics.

Since when is it proper to abbreviate a word by taking the first four letters and then sticking the last letter on there?

Because it's English, a living language, one of the few languages that is not bound by some arbitrary set of rules set up by people who can't even speak it.

Quote from: tekla on October 19, 2008, 07:38:23 PM
Since when is it proper to abbreviate a word by taking the first four letters and then sticking the last letter on there?

Because it's English, a living language, one of the few languages that is not bound by some arbitrary set of rules set up by people who can't even speak it.

Sorry, while they may not be completely clearly defined in all respects, there very much are "rules" to the English language.

The only "rule" that "Maths" would follow is "There's an exception for every rule in the English language."

That's rule enough for me. 

I don't think my background helped me at all, not in any area.

Even before I accepted that I was female, I felt a lot of empathy for women on the basis of having my opinions ignored or dismissed by men.  I knew exactly what it was like to speak my mind and get shot down, only to have a MAN say the same thing a minute later, win praise and attention, and act like it was his idea all along.  It's an emotional Death of a Thousand Cuts.

And no one ever understood when I tried to talk about it, since MEN shouldn't have that problem.  I was always told to "be assertive", but what they really meant is "be aggressive", and I can't be aggressive like a guy.

That's not the only thing I didn't pick up from living as a man - I'm not strong in any of the stereotypical male areas, beyond IT.  I struggle to memorize theorems in math,  I dislike violent sports, know very little about automobiles or power tools, hate the thought of getting into a fight (physical OR verbal), and have all the assertiveness of a kicked puppy.

When I think about all the things I need to know as a woman, but don't... things that I could have spent time learning instead of throwing myself against this brick wall of masculinity... I can't see any advantage at all.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Believe me, I struggle with this every day.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.


I've been on a diet forever. I'm still shaped like a potatoe and I hate mirrors.
The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Not a chance. I worked as a mechanic for years but when I offer suggestions, they're dismissed automatically because I'm a woman and I can't possible know what I'm talking about. And I just let it go rather than argue.

Karen Lyn

I worked as a mechanic for years but when I offer suggestions, they're dismissed automatically because I'm a woman and I can't possible know what I'm talking about.

Then you work with retards, or in an idiot industry, we listen to our women with as much contempt as our guys.  You just have to make your point.  But, then again, we are very real about what we do to.

I get dizzy as a s**t house rat trying to figure out English spelling.

Cindy

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Regarding assertiveness, I think that it's transition that helps, rather than the dreaded "male past" (which I'd contend for most of us never felt like that, more like a disconnected jumble of conflicting information). It's one of those trial-by-fire things, like someone whose sanity survives an earthquake or a war or a hurricane will not be scared by a little rain.
In other areas... I don't know. I think that if I had been born a girl in body I would have been frowned upon for being a knowledge nut, reading the encyclopedia and watching documentaries as a child (even more than I was as a "boy"). Girls are often raised to be superficial and not to ask a lot of questions, they are raised to care about pleasing and fitting, to be mothers and cooks and cleaners. Boys usually have more leeway in this respect and I guess it was a factor in my parents leaving me alone to figure out the world and myself.










Posted on: October 20, 2008, 08:53:19 am

---

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 19, 2008, 07:33:15 PM

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2008, 04:58:57 AM
My past has enabled me to change a tyre without flagging down a helpful male to assist me in my time of maidenly distress.

Darned Skirts *huff*

Mum and I got a flat tire last semester at school. I was still pre-HRT at the time. We worked together to change the tire, but most of the work was done by mum. I mostly just read the instruction manual on how to change a tire on *that* car.

LOL I feel your plight. I was always such a huge dork in that respect. I mean, I know the theory in regards to changing a tire but the strength for it and the practice always escaped me, even before HRT and being 5'11". If I had an air gun to spin out the nuts I guess I could do it, nothing to be ashamed of. Trial and error FTW :)

you needed a manual?

here was me thinking a wheel was a wheel...

She's not the only one.  I needed the manual to change my flat tire, but I wasn't strong enough to do it myself.  AAA had to send someone with an impact wrench.

Quote from: Rachael on October 20, 2008, 12:02:40 PM
you needed a manual?

here was me thinking a wheel was a wheel...

Well, we mostly just needed the manual to help us figure out where to place the car-lifting thing for lifting the car, but yeah, we needed the manual. >.>

Hypatia's Law of Tire Changing:
Lugnuts that were applied by hand can be removed by hand.
Lugnuts that were applied by impact wrench must be removed by impact wrench.

amen, hypathia.  and i'm glad this came up...have an appt for new tires on maggie weds, will remind...please, back them off a bit!

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Definitely not....I wasn't ever an assertive person. I was supressed and beated up a lot in my early life as a male because I looked like girl at an all boys school. I wasn't easily identifiable with males or their persuits..

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 01:02:05 AM
........ Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Wait!

I'm exempt.  My Mom was a powerful woman, and raised her daughters and myself, a late blooming sister, to stand up for ourselves, and take no crap.  She also encouraged us all to earn degrees, a rarity in our blue, blue collar neighborhood.

It was an odd feeling several days ago when I was explaining water chemistry pertaining to ion exchange treatment systems I sold, when the guy asked me, "When you were a little girl, did you ever think you would have all that knowledge packed in your head?"

For once in my life, I was totally stupified, and at a total loss for words.  It was very difficult to get a handle on the chaotic collection of thoughts, and feelings I was having.  I chalked it up on the scoreboard to my female socialization.


Bev

OT... I have a book written for women titled Dare to Repair Your Car

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.harpercollins.com%2Fharperimages%2Fisbn%2Flarge%2F1%2F9780060577001.jpg&hash=cc59a4711316b2a7d36bd8b4d3cc0e5680c8a888)

Now that's some female empowerment.

Well back in August Wing Walker and I walked out to the Jeep to discover that the back left wheel was flatter then a pancake. Wing Walker got the jack set under the back end and jacked it up. It was a struggle just to loosen the nuts off, got the flat tire off and to save our soul we didn't have the strength to lift the other wheel back on. Had to get the land lord to come down and finished the job for us. I know that I can't do that kind of stuff anymore it was  often a loosing battle to just get the nuts off before I even started transitioning. Never had the opportunity yet to experience having some nice gentleman stop and help with changing a flat. Almost tempted to pull off the road and just letting the air out of one of the tires to find out.  :D

Cindy

You are aware that rarely are women more at risk then sitting by the side of a highway with a flat tire?

Cell phones! But then I was just joking about purposly letting the air out of a tire. A well, in my dreams having a Tom Selleck type gentleman coming along to the rescue.

Cindy

a dark night.  a pretty lonely and empty mile of North American Interstate, if you lucky some jerk like me or a Hell's Angel will stop to help, otherwise, Tom Selleck ain't who you meet.  You meet Ted Bundy.

The mastodon slayer and his trusty club.

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on October 21, 2008, 04:05:30 AM
You are aware that rarely are women more at risk then sitting by the side of a highway with a flat tire?

walking alone at night is 90% more dangerous.... every time you do it

Yep I learned that lesson early in my full time transitioning. I still joke about the two raccoon eyes, Well everyone at work got a good laugh, in a fun way of course. Thanks to the heavy make up I had on to cover up a five clock shadow *yuck* I was lucky that the raccoon eye was all I got.

Cindy

Quote from: Hypatia on October 20, 2008, 03:19:36 PM
Hypatia's Law of Tire Changing:
Lugnuts that were applied by hand can be removed by hand.
Lugnuts that were applied by impact wrench must be removed by impact wrench.

And this is why I have AAA for my car and roadside assistance for my RV.  ;D


Jay

No way would I try to turn the tire iron by sheer muscular force which of course I ain't got. I put a foot on it, step up onto it, and use my full weight to turn it. Usually works. If it doesn't I got AAA.

To your original question, Nero, it's been a mixd bag for me.  I wasn't naturally assertive but I learned to be and was rewarded for doing so.  What's been strange since transition is people, especially male people, don't take me as seriously as they used to.  I've also found people think they can intimidate me more easily than in the past.

As far as looks go I've always felt like I wasn't atractive enough.  I lacked the chisled features and physique of a traditional Adonis.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I realised that I'd been an attractive man.  Now I have female body image problems.  I'm too fat, my boobs aren't big enough, my ass isn't round enough.  I can't win on that one

Well I am happy with the results I did get during my transitional years. I came home with a more then I had truly anticipated ad I ain't going to knock that. As far as traits go I always had more of the feminine type of traits then I ever did guy ones to start with. I was just good at faking it for survivals sake.

Cindy

walking alone at night is 90% more dangerous.... every time you do it

Depends on where you are.  Most of the places I've lived were quite safe for women.  Oddly, the small Midwest towns are very safe, while the midwest freeways, with miles and miles of nothing - up to a hundred of them at a stretch - have proved quite deadly for many young women when their cars break down.

Sobering thought, but then if you need to go on a trip a girls got to do what a girls got to do. Check all your tires and make sure they are all well inflated and still have good tread left on them, a good spare and a cell phone with cord and my big mama, my love, sittin beside me.

Cindy

Quote from: Miss Bev on October 20, 2008, 08:24:54 PM

It was an odd feeling several days ago when I was explaining water chemistry pertaining to ion exchange treatment systems I sold, when the guy asked me, "When you were a little girl, did you ever think you would have all that knowledge packed in your head?"

Bev

Uhm... Bev and all you others.... the answer to that question is quite easy girls and it is... drum roll.....


"Nope"

you need not lie or anything else.  Just say that you never woud have thought...

Cindi
(master of deception)

Back to the original question--

Nero, I know you didn't mean it in this light, but the question does bear on how trans women have been rejected from participating in feminism and other women's areas based on our history of alleged "male privilege" or "male entitlement." Lisa Harney revisited this ancient canard recently because it just refuses to die-- http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2008/10/20/a-response-to-jane-on-christine-burns-podcast/

Quoteit's a pretty standard silencing tactic among anti-trans radical feminists (and others, let's be honest) to accuse trans women of exercising male privilege. Please ignore the fact that trans women are women and do not benefit from male privilege due to being women. She's not talking about privilege here, but the idea that trans women act from a sense of male entitlement. Of course, the entitlement in question is "a woman is asking for access to women-only space," and how is a woman asking for access to women-only space any sign of male entitlement? It's not, this is a catch-22. Trans women either acquiesce to active exclusion wielded against us (go read Beyond Inclusion (http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/beyond-inclusion/) by Cedar Troost right now) and we're excluded, or we assert that as women we belong, and we're accused of using non-existent male privilege to gain access.

I did not initially see your question in this light, Nero, and the fact that we went for 4 pages without it coming up may be a sign of progress. But reading Lisa's blog entry about this reminded me of the issue. Your question struck me at first as merely divorced from reality but basically well-intentioned and innocuous. However, others have pressed the same point with intent to attack and belittle us... just something to be aware of... No harm, no foul on your part though.

Quote from: Miss Bev on October 20, 2008, 08:24:54 PM.... "When you were a little girl, did you ever think you would have all that knowledge packed in your head?"

I have had similar questions over the years (usually more politely phrased). My stock answer has been along the lines

Sure. And I knew I would be forever trying to explain it to MEN!

I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"

"bumping into people"  it's not one-sided.  i think what this means is that we are used to navigating hallways, elevators and such in a male frame and frame of reference...and people have seen us as being in that same place.  bumping into people because you are used to having them get out of your way...they don't do that anymore, as well as them offering you feminine deference, which you aren't used to either.  the way you utiliize the space you're in doesn't just change like a new dress.

it goes beyond space, it really affects all kinds of ways in which we interact with the world around us.  no, we don't want to exercise male privilidge, but we are trained to do so in many unconscious ways...producing those sublimial signals we put out.

i remember my outrage at first hearing about how the women with the michigan women's music festival refused entrance to transwomen.  i took it as a direct slap at my validity.  "womyn born womyn" indeed!  my lesbian therapist and i spent more then one session expressing outrage at this behavior, experiencing the hurt and the pain at running into such an unexpected glass wall.  just who do these self-righteous women think they are...defining my womanhood for me?  i read explanations from them, even found myself across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town protesting our exclusion that year.  after i'd expressed my outrage in about every way i began to get it under control...not by dismissing them as a bunch of bigots...but by beginning to understand where they were coming from.  history, it seems, can't be killed or altered.

let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
i read explanations from them, even found myself across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town protesting our exclusion that year. 

I was at Camp Trans in '94. What year were you there Pennyjane?

Z

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 10:36:06 AM
I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"

No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"  :P

Posted on: 22 October 2008, 10:06:55

---

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM


let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.

I hate to be ageist but I think I'm old enough to get away with it.  Most of the leadership of the Mich Fest are in their late 40s up and their defining moments of feminism are based in the 1970s and the second wave.  I have a number of younger lesbian friends who feel no such animosity as that expressed by Janice Raymond in her 1979 tome The Transsexual Empire: the making of the she-male.  Part of this is due to their increased exposure to ftm people which seems to translate to the mtf population as well.

Personaly, I wouldn't sleep outdoors and use communal showers for anyone.

hi zythra....i was a eleven years behind you in time...probably not that far in reality.  i have found many, many changes in myself since that experience...which was the first time i'd ever made such a publicly blatent statement on anything.  i'd be willing to bet..you've found even more.

No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"

I always had a 'daily bummer' in my lectures, sort of an icebreaker as it were, and the one that bummed them out the most was "Your health after 40 depends largely on what you did before you were 25."

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 12:33:28 PM
hi zythra....i was a eleven years behind you in time...probably not that far in reality.  i have found many, many changes in myself since that experience...which was the first time i'd ever made such a publicly blatent statement on anything.  i'd be willing to bet..you've found even more.

Penny Jane,

Like you said earlier in the thread, I moved beyond that experience to where other things were more important. At this time I'm not invested in the struggle for whether or not MWMF allows transwomen, for the most part I don't have any desire to go where I'm not wanted, although it would still be nice to see change.

Z

In its own unique way the MWMF is a change.  How many other festivals are run like that?  Zero. 

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 01:49:46 PM
No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"

I always had a 'daily bummer' in my lectures, sort of an icebreaker as it were, and the one that bummed them out the most was "Your health after 40 depends largely on what you did before you were 25."

It's unfortunately true.  I'm paying for things I did when I was 18 and 19.  Knees by skiing accident.  HCV from a brief flirtation with IV drugs in 1973.  Party on!

I was lucky in two ways, I was busy when the party was going on, and by the time I was done so was the party, nothing left but sex.  Alas.  But I also had a lot of people drift though my life whose sole purpose in life seemed to be to provide object lessons for me.  So after watching people do IV drugs, or drink so much they woke up one day in pool of their own urine covered with their own vomit I just looked at it and thought, 'gee, there's got to be a better way.'

Perhaps being so close to the drug culture affected me in other ways too.  For me transition was hindered not by SRS, that didn't bother me, but by the HRT, which was something I wasn't going to do.  I don't care if its T or H, having to stick a needle in me everyday was not something I thought would be good in the long run for me. 

T and E comes in the form of pills and you use androgen blocker as well and neither are a drug although they  cause damage to inner organs if inappropriately administered but basically they just change you to a more female or male compatible body chemistry and with some change in the psychological. Just got to know with out doubt if that is truly what you want and if one has the symptoms of GID there is little option one has as to which way to go. To ee who they feel they are within or live a miserable life. I chose the former better then being miserable all the rest of my life. Life is to short for that. I don't drink or smoke dope or cigarettes either, nor did I ever stick needles in me either.

Cindy

me neither, zythra...i see their point and i have no quarrel with it.  but, yup...the time when their point becomes outdated will be welcomed.  and, maybe it's kind of funny....but i don't have any use for music festivals of any order...it was just the point and the platform that engaged me to begin with.

and with some change in the psychological

I guess that was the point.  Perhaps I should have met a more responsible group of drug abusers and I might have had a different opinion about what would work best for me.  Who knows?  I just knew that any changes in my psychology would most likely not turn out well for me.  I had not seen it happen in anyone else who worked to chemically rearrange their consciousness.  For the people I know who have been through HRT the physical effects were awesome, some of them though, the psychological stuff, not so much.  Others though, they seemed OK for the most part.

And that's the deal.  Well, well, well, you can never tell.  I know people who can have a beer or a shot, or even both.  Its fine.  They do it and they walk away.  Others, they take the cap of the whiskey bottle and toss it away thinking "Ain't gonna be using that again."  I've watched people, including myself put that Bolivian Weasel Dust up their snout.  No problem.  Others, their life, as they knew it, was over with the first line.  Might as well have eaten the gun as done the blow, the end effect was the same.  And you can't tell who that's going to be.

Most of the people I know who drink, even the drunks, are at least responsible enough to keep a job and a house, but others.... hey I spend a few days (and nights) down at Turk and Taylor (or as we call it, the corner of Crack Ave and Royal Gate Way) and I see them with the plastic bottle of vodka next to them, laying there, on the street, passed out, in urine, in vomit, night after night.

I even talk to some of them on occasion - after all, as Mister Rodgers would say "These are the people in your neighborhood."  And I can assure you that they sure never intended to get there.  It was not their goal.  At one time, they were loved, and no doubt loved others.  They had dreams, plans and goals.  But old John Barleycorn up and got in the way of that.

And, even if they somehow find a way out - and few do - they are never the same.  Constant drinking kills brain cells, so they are a lot less smart getting out then they were going in - and in some ways they were dumb enough to start with to wind up there in the first place. So, not a good deal.  Likewise all that white stuff - H, crack, meth, coke - it puts a hole in your soul that never goes away and nothing else can ever fill.  They are never the same after that.

Now, my choice (after quite a few mistakes) was to stay away from all of it.  I didn't want to walk on what I knew to be thin ice for me.  Others might take a different path, and I don't quarrel with that either.  It's their choice, not mine, to make.  But I'm reasonably happy with my path.  Its funny that the old "Drugs, Sex and Rock and Roll" ever got started, because anyone knows that given enough of the first the second never happens.  And I was always far more into that.

Turk and Taylor, huh?  Is Aunt Charlie's the attraction?

Souls are more rislient than you might imagine.  I'm a better person for having survived my mistakes.  The humility in particular can soften the ruff edges.  I was pretty selfish and it showed in the way I lived and my career choices.  Now I work with many of those same people you've seen at Turk and Taylor.  Many suffer severe mental illness and their drugs are their only comfort.  Some will die in that gutter but some will move toward a better life in incredibly small steps.  But they do get there.

The Warfield, my theater of residence.

Hi Tekla, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to booze, drugs, and rock and roll. I drank alcoholically from 30 years and lived on the street for the last 10 years of that little trip. I have seen psychologically and mentally sick people. Some not having known much more about life except the streets having grown up with their moms on the street. I have done the bar scene and lived among others who turned tricks just like anyone else on the street to buy a meal of just buy another bottle of hooch.

I survived it and when I discovered that my only illness to begin with was GID, I was grateful for that and took the medicine to cure the illness. Was I weak for dong so? I don't think so. It took lots of guts to survive the booze and the streets and just as much in admitting to GID and doing something about it as well and surviving it. Survive it? Hell, I am proud to have become the person that the street, the booze, and the alcohol has honed me to be today. I am proud of that little lady, she has come through a lot to just be her.

But with all due respect, I do thank you for indulging me and informing me as to what your gig is in life and where it has brought you to today. I am still somewhat puzzled as to what you're here for. Why would a cisgendered person wanna waste there time here?

Cindy   

There is far more to gender variation and ->-bleeped-<- than transition.

Please I am not jestin, explain I am curious is all. I am aware there are many gender deviations under the transgender umbrella, just curious to know which you feel you would catagorise yourself under? If you wish, just say so and I'll get lost. Not intending to be a pest. I'm only a small bug any way just need a small can of bug repellent. ;D

Cindy 

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 10:36:06 AM
I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"

So......you think I'm OLD?? :P
*chuckle*

Old Bev

Posted on: October 22, 2008, 10:00:05 pm

---

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM

......after i'd expressed my outrage in about every way i began to get it under control...not by dismissing them as a bunch of bigots...but by beginning to understand where they were coming from.  history, it seems, can't be killed or altered.

let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves

.......even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further..

...."womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it. 

Hmmm.....where should I start....
Maybe just keep it short and sweet.  They're bigots, period.  I hope they don't require womEn born women to prove how much of their life they realized they were lesbian.  A huge number of natal women discover very late in life that they are lesbian, and take up the banner.  Just because they did not experience the same lifetime of discrimination, let's hope they're not left behind, either.  I'm sorry but it is just so elitist.
It's as bad as having "white only" or "black only" functions, and require proof of whiteness or blackness to participate.
I have associations with other lesbians frequently, and they don't demand to see my credentials. I know, it's off topic.....sorry, but this particular thing has plucked my nerves too many times.



Lesbian Bev

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.

<Wayne's World>
We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
</Wayne's World>

Somehow it looks like male privilege is determined by one's current gender but female privilege by one's birth sex.

Anyway, back to the original question, I wouldn't have worded it quite like that, but yes. Looking back, if I had been born as a girl I'd have chosen a somewhat different path in school, resulting in a different career path. Similarly, if I had been born as a boy I'd have chosen another path, again different from what happened. The gender dissonance I have, and being treated as a boy while having fundamentally a girl mind, has prompted me to make a mix of 'male' and 'female' choices, so yes, it has helped me in areas women typically struggle with and also in areas men typically struggle with. Of course, it also has made me struggle in areas women find easy and in areas men find easy, so in that sense it balances out. All in all, though, it is quite certainly something I do not regret.

  Nfr

hi hypathia.  i can't say i really understand your quote and then response.  i hope you didn't take my post as suggesting unworthiness because that simply isn't the case.  my post was just an acknowledgment of their rights to their own feelings just as you and i have rights to our own feelings.  because they see transsexualism through different eyes then my own doesn't necessarily mean they see me as unworthy, just that they feel our shared experiences are very limited and don't add up to our inclusion into what they see as their specific space.  i won't project my feelings onto theirs.  i've not heard one case of any of the spokespeople from mwmf suggesting we are "unworthy" only that we are different.

i disagree with them in many respects, but their feelings are theirs and they are real and are worth more then my dismissal as illigitimate, something to make jokes about.  i think it's possible to respect people who think differently then myself enough to not tell them how they should feel and what they should think...i think sharing my views respectfully is about the best i can do to provoke change.  i don't think i am unworthy, nor are you...and nor are they.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PMAssertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches.

Um yeah, and that still goes for us.  I've definitely been called that before, although not that often.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PMAnother typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

I think this is an issue that women experience whether they are trans or not.  I know I strongly fall into the "normal" for women on this one.

However, in answer to your main question, I think the overall answer is yes.  For instance, guys really aren't as mysterious to me as they are to a lot of women.  Plus I don't "wonder" much about what it's like for guys like some women do.  In the last musical I was in, me and this other girl went with a couple of guys to "sneak" into the guys dressing room, so I kind of had to "act" like it was all mysterious and stuff, but I really don't have any particular desire to really go into guy-only areas.

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
"bumping into people"  it's not one-sided.  i think what this means is that we are used to navigating hallways, elevators and such in a male frame and frame of reference...and people have seen us as being in that same place.  bumping into people because you are used to having them get out of your way...they don't do that anymore, as well as them offering you feminine deference, which you aren't used to either.  the way you utiliize the space you're in doesn't just change like a new dress.

it goes beyond space, it really affects all kinds of ways in which we interact with the world around us.  no, we don't want to exercise male privilidge, but we are trained to do so in many unconscious ways...producing those sublimial signals we put out.

i remember my outrage at first hearing about how the women with the michigan women's music festival refused entrance to transwomen.  i took it as a direct slap at my validity.  "womyn born womyn" indeed!  my lesbian therapist and i spent more then one session expressing outrage at this behavior, experiencing the hurt and the pain at running into such an unexpected glass wall.  just who do these self-righteous women think they are...defining my womanhood for me?  i read explanations from them, even found myself across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town protesting our exclusion that year.  after i'd expressed my outrage in about every way i began to get it under control...not by dismissing them as a bunch of bigots...but by beginning to understand where they were coming from.  history, it seems, can't be killed or altered.

let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.

Comprehending how someone came to the conclusion they came to does not necessarily legitimize the conclusion.

Many of us experience gender-based discrimination for pretty much our entire life, particularly before transition, and more than just gender-based, it's because we're girls. It's often no different than a father who really really wanted a son, but ended up with a girl instead, and ends up being highly discriminatory against her (even if she turns out a total tomboy). It's just intensified because there's a visual perception that this child of theirs really is a boy, despite trying to be a girl.

As also mentioned, there's plenty of women who don't realize they're a lesbian, or at least don't come to terms with it, until later in life; but that doesn't make them less of a Lesbian Woman. The ideologies there are no different, and no more legitimate, than one of the things I hate most about men, how they have to prove just how much of a man they are, and how if they start to lose out on any of those traits or aspects, they become less of a man (paralysis, memory loss, muscles weakened by old age, failing eyesight, failing hearing, etc).

Of course, this probably is one of the reasons I've never been fond of feminists. So many of them seem to just want to turn all women into men. Personally, I'm very happy with being a woman, and would happily live as a woman even if we were still in an age of women not being allowed to vote, etc. I look forward to being primarily a housewife once my BF and I get married.

Back to the note of figuring out they're lesbian, I actually figured out I'm a lesbian before I figured out I'm a girl.

Personally, I'm very happy with being a woman, and would happily live as a woman even if we were still in an age of women not being allowed to vote, etc. I look forward to being primarily a housewife once my BF and I get married.


wow

I would like to be Miss Kitty in Dodge city and have sheriff Dillon pay me a visit after hours and we can have us a little party just the two of us. Chester? Just send him out of town on to vist Billy Jo for the evening.  ;D

Cindy

Sure, and I'd like to be Mary Harris Jones or Elizabeth I too.  Or perhaps Catherine of Aragon.  Still, I have to go to work in the morning.

I love my job, I pilot a junk ship for the international disposal corporation for the Zeltke asteroid belt in the Delta quadrant. "Hee, hee, hee." Just messin with you, I do pray you knew that huh. But you should see the size of those baby Pladipussies, goodness they have grown since the last time I visited the Pledosine Galaxy.  ;D

No truly I love my job at the women's shelter. I dropped off some donations there today and when I was hugging the girls before leaving I was in tears. Wing Walker and I are leaving to go to Montreal on Friday next week.

Cindy

Hey and I love sitting on the side of the stage, away from the crowd, and watching Patty Smith too.  Of course I have to do the same with the Kings of Leon also, so no life is perfect.

Ah yes, the stage. Cindy takes hat with long plume off and sits on the edge of the stage, raises one leg up and sets her hat on her knee and folds her two hands around her knee and leans against the wall in preperation to watch Tekla perform.

Tekla walks out on the stage with guitar in hand, and the crowd goes wild throwing streamers and other assorted items into the air as they stand and scream while the teeny boppers jump up and down, also screaming wildly and waving their arms.

Tekla waves arms then bows several times then the crowd goes silent. Tekla picks up the guitar and begins to strum the strings rythmicaly and comences to sing.

Cindy

I wish, almost, but still as bob said:

Na, na, na, it ain't me babe.

I sit there, quite in the stillness of the sidestage.  And SHE walks up, rips the mike off the stand and:

Take me now baby here as I am
hold me close, try and understand
Desire is hunger is the fire I breathe
Love is a banquet on which we feed

She is still, yet restless.  And her lovers, all 2,000 of them hang on each and every word.  And in the stillness, the huge, major drum drop, and with all the power SHE has, which is in and of itself a force of nature SHE grips the mike and shouts:

Come on now try and understand
The way I feel when I'm in your hands
Take my hand come undercover
They can't hurt you now
Can't hurt you now, can't hurt you now
Because the night belongs to lovers

And I know that ain't ever going to be me, it never was me, and I'm not so sure I would even want it.  It's her's, and what's mine is mine.  That's enough for me.

Ahhhhh, but to dream, my dear. To dare to dream and just maybe that one little spark of magic is all that is required to manifest that dream.  ;D What is a dream but hopes, + some hard work = a dream come true. Dreams are realised every day in real life. Book writers have found the answer to this secret, just as performers of the arts have found their dreams through their work. Nothing is impossible and everything is possible, my dearest.

Cindy 

Patti Smith still has that amazing power. She absolutely rocks!

Z

hi katrina.  i guess you're right in that comprehending how someone might be the way they are has no affect on the legitimacy of who they are.  it's nice to have when one wants to understand though.  understanding very often will lead to legitimacy...but, again...not necessarily.

i don't hate men and i don't hate feminists, maybe that has something to do with understanding.

i guess, too, it's clear that we have a very different conception of what a lesbian is as well.  to me, to my understanding of the word, one would necessarily have to be female to be a lesbian.  so if one believes herself to be a man...well...how they arrive at being a lesbian is something that is probably beyond my understanding.

Quote from: pennyjane on October 24, 2008, 08:03:36 AM
hi katrina.  i guess you're right in that comprehending how someone might be the way they are has no affect on the legitimacy of who they are.  it's nice to have when one wants to understand though.  understanding very often will lead to legitimacy...but, again...not necessarily.

i don't hate men and i don't hate feminists, maybe that has something to do with understanding.

i guess, too, it's clear that we have a very different conception of what a lesbian is as well.  to me, to my understanding of the word, one would necessarily have to be female to be a lesbian.  so if one believes herself to be a man...well...how they arrive at being a lesbian is something that is probably beyond my understanding.

Yes, and I was always a girl. I just hadn't figured it out yet.

I can understand perfectly why feminists, lesbian or not, would have a problem with transwomen. From an outside perspective, we're men who are trying to encroach on the world of woman. They likely do not understand that we have always been women, and while we may not have had the specific problems of growing up a female in a female body, we had other problems that were still an issue of being female, and still an issue of men oppressing females (You're less of a man (less of a person) if you act like a girl).

The issue is, to put it simply, a lack of understanding on the part of the feminists in question. There perspective doesn't take into consideration the full truth of the situation, and they don't make an effort to figure out that we really are sisters, not brothers playing barbie dress up.

Now, that's not my beef with feminism, really. Since I'm not a feminist, I don't care if they let me into their "No boyz allowed" club. My beef with feminism has more to do with the overzealous "equalization" crap. Despite my earlier statement that I would accept being a woman in a world where women couldn't vote, etc., I do agree that women should have the same rights of equal opportunity and voice as men. Voting, same "ease" of getting jobs, same pay for the same amount of work, etc. However, if they want to equalize men and women on a social level, then instead of bitching at men for holding doors open for them and the like, they could simply reciprocate the gesture (it's no different than a woman paying for some dates while the man pays for other dates, and that's something they at least managed somewhat). Don't make men be as equally rude to women as they are to each other. Make women be as equally polite to men as gentlemen are to women. By raising the standards on both sides to equal levels, you improve life for everyone. Instead, overzealous feminists have pushed the quality of social interaction down for everyone.

Okay, enough of my ranting about feminism~ heehee

ok, i guess what struck me as a little off center was when you said you figured out you were a lesbian before you figured out you were a woman, putting the cart before the horse,so to speak.  that to me sounds like the girl who has decided to call her penis a clitoris.  i mean, there's what you want to be and then there is what is.  there is a huge difference between dreams and fantasy.  striving for the realization of dreams is a wonderful, growth oriented, living, thing....trying to convert pure fantasy into reality is something that usually will just never go anywhere...at least anywhere to stay.

as far as the "overzealous equalization crap", it's actually a very normal response to subjugation.  the fact that you respond to that in such a derogatory way suggests to me that your understanding hasn't led you to any empathy.  so be it, you are as entitled to your thoughts and feelings as the next person.  i hope you can find a way to cope with your anger and bitterness in a positive way.  God bless with...

Like some others have expressed, I never really flourished until I came out and began living my life as the woman I was supposed to be, in truth the only one up we might have had was the encounter at a filthy loo ;) ;)

Well, for my 2 cents on this topic. As far back as I can remember I have fantasised myself being female even when I was to young to know what the difference was in the sexes. I tended to want to emulate my sister who was four years older then me. Even after I learned what the difference between the sexes and about women's rights. feminists, women's rights to vote, Hell, for that matter, Native American rights to vote, male chauvinism, the patriarchal society of males, spousal abuse, rape, strippers, prostitution and all that neat degrading type of crap that goes against women, women don't do this, women don't do that, nya, nya, nya, on and on goes the line of crap.

That crap never deterred me nor discouraged me from wanting to be a girl. I still fantasised and wanted to be a girl, like, the one I had pictured in my mind. One unique unto my own personal personification of who I wanted to be. Nothing ever deterred from that obsession no mater how bleak the colors of the end result of that picture might be. I had already formed an image of who and what I was, wanted to be, aspired to be.

I just very simply wanted to grow up to be a live at home mommy with children, no more no less. Not much different then the dreams of many other girls my age around me had at the time. Well I got the opportunity to experience the part with the children, although unfortunately, I never got to experience the wonderful gift of carrying this life within me, like a new innocent soul, a little angel growing within me. But my dreams and aspirations were always of dreaming of myself as a woman and what her dreams and goals if she were to truly be free to live her life some day. A woman who had to live as a man because the body was what dictated I had to be in the real world.

I had to be this fake persona on the outside if I wanted to survive. I had to do a lot of stupid crap I didn't want to do just to prove I was just as much a man as my peers, *other men*. And I had better put on a good act. I had to do all this crap which at the time I thought was a good distraction from my solitary life and loneliness, even as self destructive as some of this stuff was that I did. After a time I truly did find myself enjoying it in a, Devil may care sort of way, so what if I die anyway attitude. Like my love Wing Walker says, buying into the lie.

After all those years of tribulation I have mentioned umpteen times on these forums, I finally arrived at the door step of opportunity. Very much frightened and yes close to committing suicide thinking about the absurdity of actually thinking of actually carrying out such a preposterous idea. I laid out my cards on the table and took my gamble and crossed the threshold of that door way and haven't looked back nor have I regretted it since.

Cindy       

Quote from: pennyjane on October 24, 2008, 11:41:34 AM
ok, i guess what struck me as a little off center was when you said you figured out you were a lesbian before you figured out you were a woman, putting the cart before the horse,so to speak.  that to me sounds like the girl who has decided to call her penis a clitoris.  i mean, there's what you want to be and then there is what is.  there is a huge difference between dreams and fantasy.  striving for the realization of dreams is a wonderful, growth oriented, living, thing....trying to convert pure fantasy into reality is something that usually will just never go anywhere...at least anywhere to stay.

I really don't see the correlation. Sexual orientation is as much an identity as gender identity is. I am a woman. I am a lesbian. My physical body really has little to do with what I *am.* Changing it is to allow others to perceive me as who I really am.

Quoteas far as the "overzealous equalization crap", it's actually a very normal response to subjugation.  the fact that you respond to that in such a derogatory way suggests to me that your understanding hasn't led you to any empathy.  so be it, you are as entitled to your thoughts and feelings as the next person.  i hope you can find a way to cope with your anger and bitterness in a positive way.  God bless with...

If you'd read everything I said, you might've realized what's wrong with your statement right here.

Equalizing men and women in the work place is a very logical thing. Sexism against men is a very normal response to the oppressive ways of the past (and present). Hell, I'm sexist against men, though I try not to let it be too much a controlling factor in my life.

Bringing women down to man's level when we were already set higher than men? That's idiocy. Gentlemen are becoming far less common these days because men are being taught to treat women the same way they'd treat their fellow men, which is mostly "like crap."

Now, there are some things where one could see it as a "normal" reaction to subjugation, but it's in reality an insane overreaction that, if anything, reinforces the stereotype that women are irrational and emotional.

They go too far with it and cause as many problem as they solve, if not more.

So, pennyjane, would you please reread all of what I said in my previous post? I think you'll find a lot more *reason* and *rationale* in there than "anger" and "bitterness" if you read the entire thing without making assumptions or jumping to conclusions.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 24, 2008, 03:25:45 PM
That's idiocy. Gentlemen are becoming far less common these days because men are being taught to treat women the same way they'd treat their fellow men, which is mostly "like crap."

yep. chivalry is dying and it's a shame.

Not quite me dear, not quite.
There are still some nice folks around, you just need to look in the right places for them.
Sometimes they're are right in front of your nose and you wouldn't know it unless you knew them. ;D
Cindy

sorry katrina.  i guess it's just me...but calling folks like "crap" and "insane" and such is not just rational...it's derogatory.  maybe that's just the way i understand the language.  when i insult people for being who they are it's generally a function of my anger, when i'm just talking i usually don't insult anyone.

i read your posts completely and yes, i understood what you were saying from my perspective, and i responded likewise.  if you think one doesn't have to be a woman to be a lesbian, so be it...think that way.  you said clearly..."i figured out i was a lesbian before i figured out i was a woman."  frankly, that's a little delusional.  a lesbian is by definition a woman, so if you aren't convinced you are a woman then, by definition you can't know you are a lesbian. perhaps you are a lesbian and don't know it, but not knowing you're a woman and yet knowing you are a lesbian defies common sense.

perhaps you might re-read your posts and see if i make any sense.  but i'll not argue further.  God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on October 24, 2008, 06:58:29 PM
sorry katrina.  i guess it's just me...but calling folks like "crap" and "insane" and such is not just rational...it's derogatory.  maybe that's just the way i understand the language.  when i insult people for being who they are it's generally a function of my anger, when i'm just talking i usually don't insult anyone.

First off, "derogatory" statements have never required anger in order to be said (calling Hitler Insane is not said out of anger). Second, I did not call any particular people "crap." I said that men typically treat each other like crap and are being taught these days, thanks to the more extreme feminists, to treat women like crap as well.

Quotei read your posts completely and yes, i understood what you were saying from my perspective, and i responded likewise.  if you think one doesn't have to be a woman to be a lesbian, so be it...think that way.  you said clearly..."i figured out i was a lesbian before i figured out i was a woman."  frankly, that's a little delusional.  a lesbian is by definition a woman, so if you aren't convinced you are a woman then, by definition you can't know you are a lesbian. perhaps you are a lesbian and don't know it, but not knowing you're a woman and yet knowing you are a lesbian defies common sense.

perhaps you might re-read your posts and see if i make any sense.  but i'll not argue further.  God bless with...

You say you read my posts in their entirety, but your responses tell me you haven't. Did I say one does not have to be a woman to be a lesbian? No. I said I had not yet figured out that I *am* a woman. I have always been a woman, despite my physical configuration. I was just not always *aware* of that fact. There's a big difference between being a woman and being aware you're a woman.

As for figuring out I'm a lesbian, that had as much to do with how I wanted women, how I thought about women, and how I wanted to be with a woman. While the basic desire "sex with females" is the same as heterosexual males, it was filtered through the mind and mental state of a woman, not of a man. Not to get too graphic with this, but I never really had a desire to penetrate a woman. I'd think about it at times, but that was more because I'd been taught that's what I was supposed to do. I always viewed that particular act with a certain amount of detachment. The various times I was intimate with a woman, I never even suggested going that far because I was happy (as was she) with just doing the only things a lesbian can do for her partner without a toy. At first, I figured it was just my Christian upbringing teaching me abstinence that had me holding back like that; but then I realized it was easy for me to hold to a promise of "abstinence" because I didn't have a desire to *penetrate* a woman. I just wanted to do all the highly sensual things lesbian couples can do that don't require toys (not that I would object to using toys, too XP). At this time, though I did have strong desires to become a woman, I did not yet understand that I *am* a woman. I wasn't familiar with terms like transsexual or transgender either, and considered sex change to be little more than a novel fantasy. Now that I know I *am* a woman and that I have *always* been a woman, sex change is a necessity, not just a novel fantasy.

Thanks to being raised male, i can park a car.

Quote from: Rachael on October 27, 2008, 06:18:29 AM
Thanks to being raised male, i can park a car.

And from the "wrong" side too  ;) :laugh:

I can't parallel park worth a damn.

Z

ah but its the right side of the road....

Yea and how to back up a car to, I use to be able to park back-wards in any parking space easier then forward. Now I don't drive at all since that I totaled my van in North Carolina 3 years ago. Just don't have the nerve anymore especially in city driving.

Cindy 

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 24, 2008, 10:30:41 PMI said that men typically treat each other like crap and are being taught these days, thanks to the more extreme feminists, to treat women like crap as well.

Hi Katrina,

That was a really good post altogether, but I'd have to say I disagree with the way you said this part. If certain men treat people badly, it's because they are jerks, not because of something the "extreme feminists" did. Treating people with basic human respect isn't a matter of gender -- it's a metter of basic human decency.

The problem is that sometimes we use gender, race, religion, age, or any number of other ways in which we can categorize people as "other" as an excuse to treat people badly. And some people are just mean, irrespective of arbitrary categories.

~Alyssa

Quote from: Zythyra on October 27, 2008, 06:24:43 AM
I can't parallel park worth a damn.

I can usually do a decent job of it -- my wife taught me.

  Nfr

I have this really big truck... I can hardly park it straight in most parking lots.  I bought it for my business.  Now that the business is tanking, I may as well keep it.  I just wish it got better mileage.

Cindi

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Hey Nero, I am brand new here. I have been wanting to talk you. You look just like someone that I work with. You aren't from Texas are you?
I wanted also to throw in my two cents on your question.

I personally have struggled more because of my background. In those areas that "women" struggle with and in my case I see it as much worse.

I on the other hand am sooooo tired of haveing to live up to a certain standard just because I am perceived as "male". I want to have the opportunity to not be agressive so I won't be thought of as a bitch. Hell I just would like the chance to not be assertive at all just because I am not. The "women" are even permitted to cry.

And the looks oh honey. I was a big "male" and very masculine looking how was I supposed to be pretty and thin and femme?  You see it is double trouble. Not only do we have to deal with those mind games we have to deal with separating ourselves from what we should be able or want to do.

This has kept me from pursuing the real me for some time now and I am sure it affects many ts.
I hope I am making sense. Oh by the way I love being called a doll. Thanks :)

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 27, 2008, 01:15:10 PM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 24, 2008, 10:30:41 PMI said that men typically treat each other like crap and are being taught these days, thanks to the more extreme feminists, to treat women like crap as well.

Hi Katrina,

That was a really good post altogether, but I'd have to say I disagree with the way you said this part. If certain men treat people badly, it's because they are jerks, not because of something the "extreme feminists" did. Treating people with basic human respect isn't a matter of gender -- it's a metter of basic human decency.

The problem is that sometimes we use gender, race, religion, age, or any number of other ways in which we can categorize people as "other" as an excuse to treat people badly. And some people are just mean, irrespective of arbitrary categories.

~Alyssa

This is true to some extent, but there are "gentlemen" who will treat other men "like crap" (though to them and the buddies they're treating that way, it's "all in good fun, no hard feelings"), but will treat most any woman like a Queen. Polite, civilized, etc. Honestly, I find those men kinda disgusting as well because there is a double standard in the way they act. My thinking, however, is not "If you're gonna be that way with your buddies, be that way to me, too," which is the thinking of the more extremist feminists (I will not say all feminists feel that way). My thinking is "Okay, you're clearly capable of being polite, civilized individuals. Why not behave that way with your buddies, too?"

I mean, sure, everyone is going to be more relaxed around their close buddies than around someone they haven't met before, but that doesn't mean being a total jerk.

Yesterday, I had to read a "Bromance" short story for workshop in my Creative Writing class. It was an incredibly accurate portrayal of the two typical college age males. They were best buds and every other thing they said was a massive insult to the other. At times, one would wonder "These guys are friends?" It made me think of the old saying "With a friend like you, who needs enemies?" However, it was still clear they were best buds and that was acceptable behavior between them. Also, all the guys in my class not only considered it believable, but could relate 100% to the story. I, and a few of the other girls I talked to in class, were frankly rather disgusted with it.

Now, maybe that kind of behavior is hardcoded into the the typical male. Instinctive posturing and competing in order to prove strength and worthiness to mate with the best females, and all that evolution/natural selection crap. Maybe it's something they have to do. I could accept that, but if that's the case, then put the double standard back in, with an exceptionary clause. Any woman who can be "one of the boys" and likes being "one of the boys" (and this is excluding FTMs since FTMs really *are* one of the boys and not just a girl who can fit in with guys while still being very much a female) is welcome to be a part of all that rude, disgusting, comradery banter. Let the rest of us who don't fit in as "one of the boys" receive the polite, civilized treatment.

I mean, seriously, what's so demeaning about being treated like a Lady? There's a huge distinction between being treated like a Lady (particularly if you are a lady) and being discriminated against for being a woman. Besides, while all Ladies are women, not all women are ladies.

Meh, ranting a bit, probably cause of the vicodin. >.>

Posted on: October 29, 2008, 04:16:18 pm

---

Quote from: Rachael on October 27, 2008, 06:18:29 AM
Thanks to being raised male, i can park a car.

I can park, even parallel park, with no trouble whatsoever. My mum taught me. In fact, mum taught me how to drive entirely. Dad taught me absolutely nothing about driving. He made one attempt to teach me how to drive a standard and only succeeded in scaring the hell out of me and traumatizing me so that I'll never drive a standard.

I do try to avoid backing up in any car, though, because of when I backed into another car at church once. >.>;;

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 04:18:40 PMI do try to avoid backing up in any car

How do you parallel park without using reverse gear?  ???

Quote from: Hypatia on October 29, 2008, 10:47:20 PM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 04:18:40 PMI do try to avoid backing up in any car

How do you parallel park without using reverse gear?  ???

I haven't had to parallel park ever, actually. The only time I've done it is when mum was teaching me how and that was before I traumatized myself by backing into another car (though it wasn't actually entirely my fault I backed into them...they were stopped in the middle of the road to chat with other people and they were in my blind spot).

No, my background has not helped me at all.  If anything it has kept me down.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 17, 2008, 11:53:38 AM

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

I've had fairly severe anger management issues (even to the point where I've been known to physically attack someone who angered me enough, though I always pulled my punches so completely that I never hurt anyone, and often didn't even do more than act like I was going to hit them) since about age 7 (and I'll note that my gender dysphoric feelings started a little before that as well, though I didn't understand that's what they were). Aside from that, and to some extent because of that (I was often teased about my anger, especially since my earliest forms of release was just to "scream like a girl" rather than to hit, the hitting things came later after I was forced to supress the urge to scream as a release), I'm an incredibly shy and passive girl. I'll stand up for myself if it becomes necessary, and I'm more inclined to speak up if it's for someone else rather than myself, but I mostly just keep quiet and rather invisible (which is kinda funny since I stand a little over 6' tall). People easily forget I'm there, and I typically will do what I'm told unless I 1) don't comprehend what I've been told to do or 2) find the task/action/whatever so completely appalling that I cannot keep my mouth shut about it.

Katrina, I was wondering if your anger and personality was a cause for your GID or that the opposite was true and the GID was the cause for your anger and personality. I am curious because as I was reading your post I thought that you knew and was describing yours truly.

Quote from: Shellygurl on October 29, 2008, 02:04:15 AM

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Hey Nero, I am brand new here. I have been wanting to talk you. You look just like someone that I work with. You aren't from Texas are you?
I wanted also to throw in my two cents on your question.

I personally have struggled more because of my background. In those areas that "women" struggle with and in my case I see it as much worse.

I on the other hand am sooooo tired of haveing to live up to a certain standard just because I am perceived as "male". I want to have the opportunity to not be agressive so I won't be thought of as a bitch. Hell I just would like the chance to not be assertive at all just because I am not. The "women" are even permitted to cry.

And the looks oh honey. I was a big "male" and very masculine looking how was I supposed to be pretty and thin and femme?  You see it is double trouble. Not only do we have to deal with those mind games we have to deal with separating ourselves from what we should be able or want to do.

This has kept me from pursuing the real me for some time now and I am sure it affects many ts.
I hope I am making sense. Oh by the way I love being called a doll. Thanks :)

hi Shelly. nice to meet you. <offers hand> no not in texas, did live in oklahoma for a bit though.  :)

Hmmm. A bit late to the thread, so I didn't read much of the conversation inbetween, but in answer to Nero's original question: For the most part no. I was always painfully shy and self-conscious, so I also never really got much peer socialisation or anything of the like. Body image has always been a problem with me, to the point where I developed something akin to exercise bulemia during the last year or so of highschool and into university. The only reason that it kinda eased off was when I started travelling and wasn't able to control my life as minutely, which brought all kinds of other issues though. Now that I'm back home I've noticed my issues with food resurfacing. Definitely not a good thing.

~Simone.

Hi Lady amarant, Hey what you say closely resembles me growing up. Shy and a loner for the most except maybe for one or two kids, or later grown ups I hung out with occasionally. After the age of twenty five I had a double whammy to deal with. I knew I wasn't going to get any bigger then 5'3" and 115lbs. and my features were becoming more male looking. I knew that size wise it would be hard for me to go with the guys which I didn't realy have anything in common with, and I could not fit in with the girls although I spent more time with the girls then I did with guys unless I was showing off to them that I was just as much a man as they were.

Well anyway that's enough of the garbage, it's in the past and I am now who I have always desired to be.

"And oh, by the way," if you don't hear from her first I was in touch with a mutual friend earlier today.

Cindy