Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I don't know one person who was financially unaffected by transitioning. 

Almost everyone I know lost their job. 

All but one got divorced and that one is hanging in the balance. 

Everyone who lost their job either ended up unemployed or in a lesser paying job. 

Most everyone lost most or all of their life savings. 

Many lost their homes and couldn't afford to buy another. 

Some live with friends or family, the rest live in a cheap apartment.

Those who fared the best retired before transitioning.  There's one exception, a friend who just landed a good job with a law firm.

All the above were financially sound and well employed prior to transitioning.

Even though it happened to many, being yourself is priceless gift you can ever become :D If someone looks at these all losses, it may be pretty sad, but we have to ask ourselves fundamental question: What is important for me? And after that many people would realise that money, job isn't the key to happiness :) It's best to look ahead, and see only the positive things!

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 19, 2011, 07:48:15 AM
I don't know one person who was financially unaffected by transitioning. 

Now you do.

I stayed with the same employer and actually had subsequent promotions.  I left several years after transitioning to take a more lucrative offer in the private sector. 

Yep.

I would rather struggle for what I need than sacrifice to get what I want.

(That's a bit unclear, isn't it?  :))

Julie,
nobody can say you haven't told them, eh!

Long live the exceptions and I'm happy to hear of one, Ann, this far.

Best,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 19, 2011, 11:52:16 AM
Long live the exceptions and I'm happy to hear of one, Ann, this far.

There are lots more besides me that are out there...just that most of them are not online. 

I knew of three in Austin that kept their positions with employers, one of whom also maintained full custody of the child following divorce.  None of the ones I have known in my life exhausted their life savings.  Did several get divorced who had previously been married?  Sure...but they knew going in that the marriage wouldn't survive, especially since almost all had gotten married to prove what a man they were.  Talk about a recipe for relationship disaster.

There's only one reason this happens - the negative stigma attached to being trans.  And that leads to prejudice and discrimination.  It's amazing how they can so easily punish you through financial means when you don't conform.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 19, 2011, 02:04:23 PM
There's only one reason this happens - the negative stigma attached to being trans.  And that leads to prejudice and discrimination.  It's amazing how they can so easily punish you through financial means when you don't conform.

Wow, who knew being a transsexual lesbian in a good'ol boys network was apparently 'conforming.'  After all, based on your post, that would be the ONLY possible way that I saw additional promotions and secured a better deal in the private sector several years later...

Are there industries or fields that might not be as accomodating?  Sure.  And admittedly I was surprised when I had no problems with my employer given I was in a position of high visibility at the time of my transition.  But to claim the inability of others to secure employment elsewhere was solely related to being transsexual is just a stretch.  The reality is that the job market has rarely been kind over the past 25 years to ANYONE seeking new work over the age of 40...there is always a kid out of college or a foreigner who will do the work for half the money, never mind that they lack the skills possessed by the experienced hand. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 19, 2011, 02:15:26 PM
Wow, who knew being a transsexual lesbian in a good'ol boys network was apparently 'conforming.'  After all, based on your post, that would be the ONLY possible way that I saw additional promotions and secured a better deal in the private sector several years later...

You're an exception and are in two areas that are generally at the top of professions accepting of trans people, law and education.  Try mining or construction or other places the REAL good 'ol boys like to hang out.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 19, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
You're an exception and are in two areas that are generally at the top of professions accepting of trans people, law and education.  Try mining or construction or other places the REAL good 'ol boys like to hang out.

You mean like at the fire department?  Because people have transitioned successfully there as well.  Or maybe the airline industry, because there are successful transitioners there as well.  Lyn Conway would argue that engineering is a man's world, yet she transitioned successfully - heck she's got pages (and pages) of successful transitioners that probably puts a dent in your theory as well.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 19, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
You're an exception and are in two areas that are generally at the top of professions accepting of trans people, law and education.  Try mining or construction or other places the REAL good 'ol boys like to hang out.

Corrections is not an area oft-noted for being accepting of transsexuals...especially at the regional directorate level.

I am now where I was before transitioning and my  brief backward move had nothing to transitioning, just got tired of running my own business. I might add thought that I am not out at work, stealth. Not sure if  I would have gotten my latest promotion if I were out.
Myles

I think everyone's situation is different, Some have it easier, others have it a bit more difficult... Some have to go through hell and high water to transition

Some people live in more accepting environments, other folks may live in totally intolerant environments and may be having to deal with unaccepting families

Some folks have families that will pay their way, some live in countries that pay for a large amount of their transition, others have little to no resource's at all and struggle

I am happy for those who have experienced a somewhat seamless transition and didn't have to experience some of the difficulties that others have had to face

But does that mean you can have no compassion or empathy for others? So why do you come to a SUPPORT SITE?

I think this whole "if you transition you will lose everything" victim mentality is just so much rubbish and people need to snap out of it.

You tell 'em.  I'll be particularly interested in watching the ones who pretty much have lost everything and everyone.  I'm making popcorn. 

For a lot of people up to and including this time point in the continuum, it sure has meant that.  Exactly and completely 'lose everything.'   While their stories are not universal, they are hardly singular either.  And it not just transition, lots of things in life come to points where you're going to have to risk it all, and understand going in that people do lose.  Lots of people have it happen again and again.  I know a couple of people who have lost it all a couple of times. 

For every story of a Lynn Conway, or Anne - there are people whose lives turned out very differently.  Turn of the card, roll of the dice, pay your money and take your chances.  And that's not to say that sitting on Primrose Avenue is a forever deal once you get there.  Nope.  They are evicting people every day round those parts.  Easy come, easy go.  People's lives go horribly wrong in a flash, and in a fraction of a second nothing is the same again.  And I think that kind of stuff should not necessarily prevent people from going down the road, it ought to at least inform them before they strike off.

When life looks like Easy Street there is danger at your door.

No you're right, I was over beligerant and I know some people loose a lot or indeed everything, but for everyone who goes through hell, I'll bet that there's at least 20 people who have a fairly easy, though not without it's rough spots transtion. So really this marks me taking another break which I'll probably try and make permanent this time, I enjoy chatting with a few people and such but I'm not built to cope with all the negativity slooshing about here...besides I have people in the real world that need my support and care.

So bye...again...I don't think I'll be missed.

http://www.transequality.org/PDFs/NTDS_Exec_Summary.pdf (http://www.transequality.org/PDFs/NTDS_Exec_Summary.pdf)

The results of the "transequality" survey was posted in another part of this board.  Very interesting reading.  Most of the MTF's who transitioned from the transgender group to which I belong have lost jobs, wives, and family.  The above study seems to back up my non-expert observations.  Certain fields and large company size seem to have easier times of it.  That is good.  I worry sometimes that the positive affirmations and encouragement given to sadly unprepared young people may give them a false impression of their economic and social chances.  At least from their postings, few seem like firefighters or lawyers.  Five or ten years ago one had choices regarding employment.  Not today.  As the contraction continues, people look for the weak and injured to jettison.  That is part of my job at a large construction company where I am not out.  People put up with certain physical changes I exhibit because I have degrees in two separate fields that both pertain to the industry and is an unusual combination.   I'm a twofer, the new employee description  I hope society is becoming more tolerant, but I wouldn't argue the case based on the current crop of politicians running for president. They must be appealing to some large segment of the population.  If I seem too pessimistic, I am sorry.  Some will decide to "just go for it."  I hope it is because they truly need it and understand the consequences, and not because they thought it would be "easy."  Transitioning may be a wonderful life affirming ideal, but abject poverty, social isolation, and personal rejection can crush that pretty fast.

I wouldn't take the "survey" as much more then opinion.  How exactly did they go about collecting the sample size of 6,000+ people?  So I'm not even sure its representative of the transgender population to begin with.  As I'm assuming that they merely posted an open invitation for people to complete the survey, there are two kinds of people that complete those surveys with the largest group being people who "have an axe to grind".  Least of all, people who are happy with their transition are not going to participate in a voluntary survey designed to assess thier perceptions of discrimination.  They're simply not interested enough in the topic to participate in the survey.

So if you ask 6,000 people who feel like they were discriminated against if they felt discriminated against, I think the answer is pretty obvious.  Also, the notion of self-reported discrimination is pretty vague, its up to the responded to decide whether what they experienced was discrimination (when it might have been a completely different reason they were fired, evicted, etc); futher how do they distinguish from transgender discrimination vs racial discrimination, etc?

If nothing else, the very title "Injustice at every turn..." implies what outcome they were looking for.

"Statistics lie and liars use statistics"

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 20, 2011, 08:52:25 AM
No you're right, I was over beligerant and I know some people loose a lot or indeed everything, but for everyone who goes through hell, I'll bet that there's at least 20 people who have a fairly easy, though not without it's rough spots transtion. So really this marks me taking another break which I'll probably try and make permanent this time, I enjoy chatting with a few people and such but I'm not built to cope with all the negativity slooshing about here...besides I have people in the real world that need my support and care.

So bye...again...I don't think I'll be missed.

FWIW, if you leave, I will miss you, but hey I understand your reasoning totally.

Have you actually gone out to look at the survey?  Looked at the transequality.org web site?  I don't want to get into a spat over nothing, but they seem to have a bunch of phd's on board, they have actually issued the methodology they used, and put up their financials on their site.  Did you read it?  Now, what are your credentials again?  Sorry if I'm a bit sarcastic but it is just too easy to be dismissive of such things.  Perhaps your experience has been better than most. That's Great.  Most of the people I know have fallen under the rubric of "poor and unemployed" as suggested by this threads author.  The successful t's that I know have made accommodations to business reality (myself), work for large corp. with written employee non discrimination policies, or own business that cater to T's.  My point is that it is possible, but boy, you better be prepared and it ain't as easy as some would like you to believe.

Kia Ora,

Financially, Transitioning "CAN" Be A Disaster !  Not "WILL ALWAYS" Be A Disaster !

Well that's how I read it...

::) However like another member said, if one is fortunate enough to live in a country where unemployment benefits are available for all[in other words one is give enough to live on-covering one's basic needs] and HRT is subsidised and where the government shows compassion and allows some of the less fortunate[money wise] get government funded surgery, then financially it's not so bad even if one does happen to loose their job...

Metta Zenda :)

All the things listed in the OP's first post can and do happen.   I think that they can be viewed as punishments inflicted upon the transperson.   Punishments?   What do I mean by this?  Well, I have come lately to suspect that cis-gendered people in the depths of their heart view transsexuality as being a sexual fetish.    And as transsexuals insist upon taking this 'fetish' out of the bedroom and flaunting their 'perversion' in other people's faces they must be punished for their actions.  If transsexuality wasn't  secretly seen as a sexual fetish/perversion by the wider community, then why would people really care if you 'swapped' gender?     Are we seen as being unforgivably and perhaps intolerably indiscreet by the general population?

So bye...again...I don't think I'll be missed.

Do you know why, when they count up the great boarders you're not going to be one of them.  Because at that exact moment, you'll pass on greatness, it's just going to prove to be too hard.

if one is fortunate enough to live in a country where unemployment benefits are available for all[in other words one is give enough to live on-covering one's basic needs] and HRT is subsidised and where the government shows compassion and allows some of the less fortunate[money wise] get government funded surgery, then financially it's not so bad even if one does happen to loose their job...

Of course, you do have to live with the knowledge that no one thinks you're worth hiring.  That day in and day out people have worth to society, and you're not one of them.  Sure, your Buddhist buddies think your swell, but when it comes to getting things done, your name doesn't pop up on anyone's phone.  I'm not sure that's 'worth it'.

I've read all 228 pages of NCTE's report Injustice at Every Turn (http://transequality.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf). (Have you?)

No, but then again, I'm employed.

But I have read the 529 pages of the SF Fire Code.

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
So bye...again...I don't think I'll be missed.

Do you know why, when they count up the great boarders you're not going to be one of them.  Because at that exact moment, you'll pass on greatness, it's just going to prove to be too hard.

That's a grade A cheap shot and you know it, but then that's pretty much what your entire repetoire consists of really. This place used to be fun, it even helped me through some dark times in the beggining, but it's just so unbelievebaly negative and filled with an all pervading victim mentality that it is certainly poisonous to me and probably works in more insidious ways on others. If you dare to suggest that, by walking away from a situation that is harmful to me and which in turn causes me to be harmful to others, I am some how less, then you are really not as much of human as I gave you credit for.

Oh, and for my cheap parting shot...this place isn't real life, it's something to distract you while real life passes you buy...guessed you missed a lot of it then.

And finally, I don't really care about being counted up as one of the great boarders, all I care about is having fun with my friends and riding some gravity...anything else I achieve on a longboard is just an extra layer of icing on an already amazing cake.

Long, long ago.  Before Broken Arrow was a real run, back when it was - you know - 'out of bounds' - it was said that everyone walked out to Broken Arrow.  Half of them walked back.

Talking about careers and acceptance.  They are advertising for police recruits in my area.  I am thinking of testing the waters.  Do you think that the police is a good place for people like us or is law enforcement still full of machismo and 1950s morality?   Women police officers get to wear a really nice hat.  I'll see if I can find a picture for you.

And remember... Brutality is the FUN part of the job.

I think that the police have a sort of quasi-military mind-set.   See what you think of these hats.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2011%2F07%2F12%2Farticle-2013781-0C704F8900000578-558_468x318.jpg&hash=1e39c923006be2fae9322a215dc18710a4336296)

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 06:52:18 PM
Sure, your Buddhist buddies think your swell, but when it comes to getting things done, your name doesn't pop up on anyone's phone.  I'm not sure that's 'worth it'.

Kia Ora ,

::) Just for the record Tekla,  I've fully transitioned and work in both paid and voluntary positions[actually helping others, mostly straight "cisgender " people less fortunate than myself]... I'm not quite sure where you're at Tekla with your comments...But I guess it all makes sense to you so.............

BTW The last I hear NZ was not a "Buddhist" country...

Metta Zenda :)

 See what you think of these hats.

Those sure are cute hats  :D

They look better in person so to speak.

Here I thought I was looking at the reason that riots last days in England when they would last hours anywhere else.  That third cop couldn't chase down a doughnut looter.

The man who invented those 'high visibility jackets '  ought to have been strangled at birth.  Those jackets are spreading like a fungus.  It used to be only road construction crews who wore them.  A few months ago a woman behind a shop till was wearing one.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on August 20, 2011, 07:29:44 PM
Talking about careers and acceptance.  They are advertising for police recruits in my area.  I am thinking of testing the waters.  Do you think that the police is a good place for people like us or is law enforcement still full of machismo and 1950s morality?   Women police officers get to wear a really nice hat.  I'll see if I can find a picture for you.

Youll want to look into thenspecific depsrtment thats hiring.  It will differ from region to region, at least from what ive been looking at in the states.  San Francisco city PD will be more accepting than Jacksonville NC PD.

Many departments in my area (Cali USA) seem more open, so mighht be worth looking into (ill be considering it later down the line). 

Of course she's in Scottland, and in Cali, well, the criminals here have automatic weapons, and use them.  Kind of the down side to the job.

So yeah, when they are not laying off cops, they are hiring them in Oakland.  They had five die in one day in a shootout(s).  Same with SF, we just laid off a bunch, but I'm sure they are going to have to replace the three that got taken out with an AK-47 last year.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on August 20, 2011, 10:31:46 PM
Those jackets are spreading like a fungus.  It used to be only road construction crews who wore them.

I only had to wear those annoying things a few times.  And I was in a building.  When everyone is wearing them, they're not so obvious.  But that was before I transitioned, when I still had a job.  Oh, I forgot, I didn't lose my job because I'm trans.  Must have been alien intervention.

Quote from: Renate on August 20, 2011, 07:08:53 PM
I've read all 228 pages of NCTE's report Injustice at Every Turn (http://transequality.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf). (Have you?)

Yes, I did.  But now I'm finding it's just propaganda.  They LIED to us!  We have nothing to fear.  There is no prejudice, no discrimination, no hatred and no reason to be stealth.  Everywhere we go we can proudly declare, "I am transgender!"

Who's first?

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on August 20, 2011, 03:28:30 PM
My point is that it is possible, but boy, you better be prepared and it ain't as easy as some would like you to believe.

I did read the study.  They admit that their sample isn't representative of the transgender population, and even go as far to say it shouldn't be applied to the transgender population as a whole.  Further that they paid community workers to collect surveys puts the validity of those responses at risk.

We all agree that transition is difficult, but the OP stated "Financially, Transitioning Can Be A Disaster".  Yes it can, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.  People have changed employers, changed careers, put off transition until they were more financially stable.  Rushing into a transition you didn't make adequate plans for is a disaster.

I quite frankly do not have time to read the entire document, merely the the executive summary.  However, I went back to double check the methodology.  They did not pay community organizers, though they did provide food at gatherings.  The only reason that it may not be truly random is that it had to be drawn from acknowledged TG sources.  The US Census doesn't include the questions.  You would need to ask questions from an enormous, broad population to derive a representative, random population of trans.  Typical polls run what? 5000 people of the type desired.  To get a random group of trans, would require a random sample, if assuming 1 percent of trans/total population, 500,000 people.  Cost prohibitive.  Sorry if you feel personally attacked.  I have not intended too.  I can be sharp at times, I am sorry if it was me who offended you.  Further, I don't try to be negative, merely a realist.  I agree.  Failing to plan is a problem.  Unfortunately, I find that many, including myself, experience a quantum growth in dysphoria at the exact time we should be making career choices.  It is easy to condemn the victim.  One of Adolph Hitlers' Generals wife was a Jew.  She got to go to all the big parties, right through the war.  One cannot then infer that the Jews didn't have it so bad!  We got pink triangles. We have been hunted down, tortured, imprisoned, murdered and executed by bigoted religious types for at least 2000 years.   Even Black people can point to a previous high culture in places like Ethiopia and feel a sense of connectedness.  We have none of that.  We fight with each other over piffles.  Those that have done well while transitioning, good for you.  I admit to being a bit jealous.  I have done well in life, better than most, but at the expense of delays and accommodation.  I made those decisions to get and keep what I wanted.  But I never forget that an ->-bleeped-<- world of holier than thous kept me from, in the words of the anti-Christ "Oprah"-my best life.   

"Financially, Transitioning Can Be A Disaster"

Well yes it can, just like any other aspect of ones life should it not be planned for. Far too often folks don't realize the peril they put themselves in when transition is undertaken.  Just because we want to transition doesn't mean everyone else should bow down to our wishes, cater to us, give us money and assistance.  Folks may have rights and freedoms but only those rights and freedoms "Others" are willing to give you.

Plan, adjust, plan, move, plan, plan, plan, then make one final adjustment, then tweak it a little, but then you know what is said about the best laid plans.

I turned out okay.

(Ya I know...)

Well first, how are the stats relative to the rest of the nation, who also ain't doing very well these days.

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 07:13:13 PM
No, but then again, I'm employed.

But I have read the 529 pages of the SF Fire Code.

Well? :laugh:

For me, it wasn't so much that I lost everything. It was more that I had a lot of money going into transition. Yes, I lost my job, but the industry was imploding. Yes, I got divorced but that was mutual and we're still good friends. I'm making about $50K a year right now, I love what I do, but it's a COMPLETELY different industry. Some of you may remember from my blogs when I first transitioned my biggest fear was "where the heck is my income going to come from?" You all were so supportive of me. I really pursued anything I could find and took a temp job making $12 an hour. I busted my butt and worked really hard and I've been there for three years now in a month and I've gotten four promotions. I think there are opportunities but a lot of it depends on the city you live in, your work experience, ability to lower cost of living for yourself to really low levels (if they were high), the way that other people see you physically/mentally, etc. and a bunch of other things.

One thing that definitely doesn't help some trans people get employed is that lack of social skills or like the ability to interview well. I mean with things like with the Asperger's and things that keep some trans people from looking others in the eyes, being affirmative, those kinds of things, that really hurts the ability to be hired. I'm definitely not saying that's MOST people, but I have personally interviewed several like that for heavy customer-based positions. It breaks my heart and I don't know what the solution is to that.

Julie, you are right, I can't imagine what someone in the construction industry faces. That must be crazy hard to find a job post-transition. Even if one finds work, what's the work environment like. Laws can protect people a lot but the work environment could still be blah.

Even as someone who is still gainfully employed post-transition, I did spend every last penny I earned from the sale of my business, and thus have no decent retirement savings.  But I am grateful I was able to afford my surgeries and get on with the rest of my life.

It sucks when people are let go primarily because of transition issues, esp. in your case Julie, IIRC they canned you after promising you nothing would change, that they were cool with it. They suck.

I think it is best to be prepared to lose it all, then be surprised if it doesn't happen.


Jay

Well?
a) don't block the exits
b) don't use outdoor fireworks inside w/o prior approval and having (and paying for) not one, but TWO fire marshals to be there when you do it.  (And remember that I hate it, so I'm not going to be your friend when you show up in my building with lots of explosives.)
c) don't use extension cords/outlet expanders in a commercial building.  (Big no-no, I see this stuff all the time).


To be sure, for a lot of people, the past 10 years haven't been a good time for anything financial except disaster.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 21, 2011, 05:50:49 AM
  There is no prejudice, no discrimination, no hatred and no reason to be stealth.  Everywhere we go we can proudly declare, "I am transgender!"

Who's first?

Not I, I was accosted coming out of a very visible transgender event last night. Bi*** threw a sharp stick towards me and told me to pick it up. I ignored her and took my pretty self to my truck. She looked so... small.

Quote from: regan on August 21, 2011, 07:24:30 AM
We all agree that transition is difficult, but the OP stated "Financially, Transitioning Can Be A Disaster".  Yes it can, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.  People have changed employers, changed careers, put off transition until they were more financially stable.  Rushing into a transition you didn't make adequate plans for is a disaster.

I wouldn't charge anyone for giving them that advice.  They might ask for their money back.

I planned, thought about it for years.  I assessed the situation in the field (working on the jobsite) and decided there's no way.  But then I got with a company that couldn't say enough good things about me.  They put me in charge of the design on their largest projects.  They flew me to DC, called on me to make customer presentations and began talks to make me design manager.  The toughest to please in the company were happy I joined the team.  They were fighting over who would get me for their project.  They paid me more than I had ever made in my life.  I got bonuses that brought a big smile to my face.

I thought, maybe, just maybe, I could do this.

So I checked the HR Manual.  No problems there.  I asked around, discreetly, about the company attitude.  No problems there but I couldn't be too specific in my queries.  State law was on my side with full transgender protections.

Then I went to HR to find out the company policy.  "We follow state law and have zero tolerance for discrimination."  Then the mother company HR officials got involved.  Not only was there no problem, they encouraged me to transition.  A team from corporate came into town and for 45 minutes worked on me to come out, but I still wasn't convinced.  Finally they made the decision for me, guaranteeing me my job and pay would be unaffected and I would never be placed back in the field.  I was too valuable where I was.

I came out and two months later they said they had no work for me. 

Now, how did my failure to plan result in a plan to fail?

It wasn't your fault Julie Marie. Even the best laid plans, cannot account for all variables. Be it someone in your former company discriminating, or perhaps even a fluke of the economy making there really be no work for you (but, tbh I doubt that, despite my doubts though correlation isn't causality). Unfortunately, it may never be known what the true reasons are, since they would never admit to breaking the law.

I am in a pretty dire financial situation myself, I am not sure where I am going to live, much less how I can afford to transition, but at the same point, I realize it is the hopeful attitude that makes it all bearable. I think things need to be changed, and we need to be outraged at our treatment and the treatment of our sisters and brother (hey FTMs, get discriminated against too!). However, I think we should never give up, things are possible, even if we may have to take two steps back, to take one forward in the right direction.

I hate being poor, and I hate not having the money to transition, but I know one thing, I am going to fix my life or die trying. I wish that didn't sound as desperate as it does, but the truth of the matter is, I very much am.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 21, 2011, 05:50:49 AM
Yes, I did.  But now I'm finding it's just propaganda.  They LIED to us!  We have nothing to fear.  There is no prejudice, no discrimination, no hatred and no reason to be stealth.  Everywhere we go we can proudly declare, "I am transgender!"

Now it sounds like you are truly drinking the transgender kool-aid since their typical response is to be so over-the-top with the hyperbole...you stole a page straight out of the Phyllis Frye playbook. 

Anyone who has the most fundamental grasp of sampling methods will recognize that there are flaws to the study.  Those have been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.  Because of where their response sets come from, they are essentially taking the DELIBERATE action of omitting ANY response from the transsexuals who did not encounter issues. 

As to declarations of being 'transgender,' you won't ever hear such come from my mouth because the term does not apply to me. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 10:26:19 AM
...Snip...

Now, how did my failure to plan result in a plan to fail?

Could it be that there was in fact no work?  Based on what you said it would seem that you had grounds to pursue the company in court.  They would then be required to layout the reasons for your dismissal.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 22, 2011, 02:08:27 PM
Now it sounds like you are truly drinking the transgender kool-aid since their typical response is to be so over-the-top with the hyperbole...you stole a page straight out of the Phyllis Frye playbook. 

It's called sarcasm.  And I don't drink Kool Aid.  I just take real life experience and let it speak for itself.

But I need to ask, as you seem to be such a disbeliever that transgender people are discriminated against, why haven't you put your real name and your real picture here but instead choose a name that implies "anonymous"?  From what I've read of your postings here, you should have nothing to fear.

Quote from: Steph on August 22, 2011, 02:14:31 PM
Could it be that there was in fact no work?  Based on what you said it would seem that you had grounds to pursue the company in court.  They would then be required to layout the reasons for your dismissal.

No, the job I was in charge of designing was in full swing when they told me they had no work.  And the project manager, who pre-coming out, had said I'd be assisting him with job management like I did on an earlier job, stopped talking to me. 

I filed a complaint with the department of human rights.  That's still in progress.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 02:22:27 PM
No, the job I was in charge of designing was in full swing when they told me they had no work.  And the project manager, who pre-coming out, had said I'd be assisting him with job management like I did on an earlier job, stopped talking to me. 

I filed a complaint with the department of human rights.  That's still in progress.

Keep us posted it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 02:22:27 PM
I filed a complaint with the department of human rights.  That's still in progress.

I wish you luck with that and hope you get the resolution you deserve. Basically I hope you win.

People with 'nothing to fear' tend to have the most to worry about.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 02:18:37 PM
It's called sarcasm.  And I don't drink Kool Aid.  I just take real life experience and let it speak for itself.

But I need to ask, as you seem to be such a disbeliever that transgender people are discriminated against, why haven't you put your real name and your real picture here but instead choose a name that implies "anonymous"?  From what I've read of your postings here, you should have nothing to fear.

...another one...ZAPPED! :laugh: :laugh: by Julie Marie!

Quote from: tekla on August 22, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
People with 'nothing to fear' tend to have the most to worry about.

Which brings to mind...

QuoteThe path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

Second thoughts, may be it's not so appropriate in this instance.  What the heck, it's a great line.

Quote from: tekla on August 22, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
People with 'nothing to fear' tend to have the most to worry about.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 02:18:37 PM
It's called sarcasm.  And I don't drink Kool Aid.  I just take real life experience and let it speak for itself.

The taking of an experience and applying it as an absolute does NOTHING except put more hyperbole out there that accomplishes nothing productive.  And if you really thought that one datapoint of real life experience spoke for itself, then my experiences as *I* lived them in a very conservative area of the State as well as within a very conservative agency should also speak for itself...

QuoteBut I need to ask, as you seem to be such a disbeliever that transgender people are discriminated against, why haven't you put your real name and your real picture here but instead choose a name that implies "anonymous"?  From what I've read of your postings here, you should have nothing to fear.

You mean aside from the fact that I am NOT 'transgender?' How about the fact that I don't see the need to have my personal details splayed across the web in ANY forum that I am on...my true name has not appeared in any forum in which I have participated.  And save for one known photograph, prior to May of this year, I am unaware of ANY photos of me on the web.  I prefer a small internet footprint for reasons that go far beyond my personal medical history. 

I have never worn the transsexual label...I HAVE identified as a lesbian for close to 30 years.  But even in the lesbian forums I participated in during the past few decades rarely were places that I put my full name out there...and there were no photographs.  Some people value a modicum of personal privacy. 

Some people value a modicum of personal privacy.

Check your watch.  It's 2011 in most of the US, and personal privacy is a quaint 19th century concept not a current reality.  Lawyers have made sure of that.

Quote from: Hikari on August 22, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
I am going to fix my life or die trying.

Thank you for reminding me of the spirit that I need in tough times like this. :)

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 22, 2011, 03:03:34 PM
The taking of an experience and applying it as an absolute does NOTHING except put more hyperbole out there that accomplishes nothing productive.  And if you really thought that one datapoint of real life experience spoke for itself, then my experiences as *I* lived them in a very conservative area of the State as well as within a very conservative agency should also speak for itself...

In my original post I spoke of trans people I personally know (not on the Internet) and how most of them suffered financially by transitioning.  Mine is not a single experience but rather the experience of most of the trans people I know.  I can think of only one exception out of dozens of examples (datapoints).  But as you said, your experience is one datapoint and I completely agree with you, that puts more hyperbole out there and accomplishes nothing productive.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 22, 2011, 03:03:34 PM
You mean aside from the fact that I am NOT 'transgender?'

Medically and in the opinion of doctors, health care professionals and mental health professionals (the people often referred to in a court of law as "experts"), if you are XY and female identified, you are transgender.  Same goes if you're XX and male identified.  You can scream otherwise until you are blue in the face but that fact will never change.

But there is a world of difference between being TS and identifing as such. Being TS is a medical thing...identifing as TS is cultural and in a cultural identity sense a lot of people actually aren't TS.

But we should almost certainly step away from this direction of talk because any second now someone will get offended and start wailing about how they don't want you to tell them how they identify.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 04:05:43 PM
Medically and in the opinion of doctors, health care professionals and mental health professionals (the people often referred to in a court of law as "experts"), if you are XY and female identified, you are transgender.  Same goes if you're XX and male identified.  You can scream otherwise until you are blue in the face but that fact will never change.

The word 'transgender' did not EVER appear anywhere in my medical file.  The letters to my surgeon did make reference to my meeting a criterion to be considered 'transsexual' and that I was under care for a 'transsexual' medical condition.  Fortunately, I got my life in order before this 'transgender' horse->-bleeped-<- became so commonplace that it pervades a sub-forum captioned 'transsexual talk.'

Of course your reference to chromosomes also leaves out the other combinations that routinely surface...but it was clear that you wanted to turn the topic in a direction that runs people off from the boards. 

Valerie, I realize posting the full name is often unwise and I know some here have been outed by posting a picture here or providing a real name and their life turned a disaster.  And that only supports my original post.  Still, some of us have posted real pictures of ourselves (yes, that's me) and used our real names (yes, that's my real first and middle name).  I figured I've got nothing else to lose, so for me it wasn't a big deal to do so.

Honestly, if coming out and transitioning resulted in being an overall positive experience, I would do the same thing.  I'd want to be positive example for the community.  But when being outed can cause one to lose something, I fully understand anonymity.  It's crucial. 

It's hard for people to believe what they see on the Internet.  So you need more than a statement to establish credibility.  Longevity, personal photos and real names all help in establishing that credibility.  If you went on LinkedIn and gave a fake name, your credibility would be sunk once you made personal contact.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 22, 2011, 04:13:31 PM
Im sorry you had a bad experience with your job Julie.

Thank you Valerie.  There's not a lot that can be done now except to let others know this CAN happen.  It doesn't mean it will, just be aware it can.

Well, I like data points.
How about if the OP throws a poll at the top of this post?

Transition, for me, has financially:

• had a decidedly positive effect
• had a slight positive effect
• had no effect
• had a slight negative effect
• had a decidedly negative effect
• been a disaster

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 22, 2011, 04:19:04 PM
but it was clear that you wanted to turn the topic in a direction that runs people off from the boards.

Please do not put words in my mouth.  Running people off the board never was, is not now, and never will be my intention.  Providing accurate and real information and real life experiences, however, always has been, is and always will be.

I read posts I respond to completely and carefully and post with great time and thought put into it.  I wish to offend no one nor do I wish to engage battle.  Getting along is a decision and one I prefer.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 22, 2011, 02:22:27 PM
No, the job I was in charge of designing was in full swing when they told me they had no work.  And the project manager, who pre-coming out, had said I'd be assisting him with job management like I did on an earlier job, stopped talking to me. 

I filed a complaint with the department of human rights.  That's still in progress.

I think it sucks what they did  >:(  I hope you're able to get some kind of settlement... Would like to know how it all turns out

Any prospects for a new job?

I definitely had three jobs where "my condition" was a significant factor in making my life miserable. It took a few years for me to leave that trail of history in the dust. It was a hard time.

But, somehow, I did manage to get a few great jobs and turned that situation around! Now, I work for myself. My boss is a real beeyach. She won't let me off on time or show up to work late. She makes me work overtime all the time and I never get paid for it!

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 22, 2011, 04:12:32 PM
But there is a world of difference between being TS and identifing as such. Being TS is a medical thing...identifing as TS is cultural and in a cultural identity sense a lot of people actually aren't TS.

But we should almost certainly step away from this direction of talk because any second now someone will get offended and start wailing about how they don't want you to tell them how they identify.

Wise words, as always. Some paths lead to no resolution.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 22, 2011, 07:25:41 PM
I definitely had three jobs where "my condition" was a significant factor in making my life miserable. It took a few years for me to leave that trail of history in the dust. It was a hard time.

But, somehow, I did manage to get a few great jobs and turned that situation around! Now, I work for myself. My boss is a real beeyach. She won't let me off on time or show up to work late. She makes me work overtime all the time and I never get paid for it!

I think your boss is a Jack Ass... Oh wait a sec... ;)

Quote from: Renate on August 22, 2011, 04:34:47 PM
Well, I like data points.
How about if the OP throws a poll at the top of this post?

Transition, for me, has financially:

• had a decidedly positive effect
• had a slight positive effect
• had no effect
• had a slight negative effect
• had a decidedly negative effect
• been a disaster

stupid poll is stupid and will prove nothing. firstly, those midway through transition or just finished in the last 5 years are almost certainly going to be financially worse off because even if they haven't lost their job like everyone is suggesting, they'll be paying or have just paid for everything. Secondly this is a support site and i the people who have had success won't really frequent here so the poll will not be a real reflection of reality, merely a snap shot of what has happened to people at susans. It would have been better to ask about employment status rather than financial gain.

Quote from: Steph on August 22, 2011, 07:31:00 PM
I think your boss is a Jack Ass... Oh wait a sec... ;)

Yup. Sometimes I wonder. ;)

Cindi

She won't let me off on time or show up to work late. She makes me work overtime all the time and I never get paid for it!

Your boss sounds like me, except for the overtime deal, we're a union crew, overtime is our god.  But the showing up late?  I tell people who I hire that if you're going to show up late don't bother showing up at all.  I got rid of more people for that one thing then for everything else combined.  But I don't think that is really unusual in real working situations.  As far as getting off on time, when you're in strictly enforced overtime, 'golden time' as we call it after 12 hours, you really don't want it to end.

I started my transitioning with a FFS procedure first because it was something that was less gender defining (rhinoplasty) and simply would make me more attractive in either/or gender role, and it both set me in the poverty category, and what's worse, the procedure was botched. I wasn't able to file a lawsuit because the statute of limitations for malpractice is only one year, in which, concerning rhinoplasty, surgeons "by-pass" the possibility of being sued during that year because they all swear, even in textbooks, that it takes longer than a year for a rhinoplasty result to truly "show-itself" and heal properly, when it actually only takes as much as 6 months for the entire spectrum of swelling to go down, and only a month for true deformities and malpractice injuries to show themselves.

So it's been really building my life back up, ground up, to recover from all of that; it only makes things tougher that my disfigured feature is one of the many that cause a major disturbance in my social life - I look sickly to the point hardly any fellow young adults want to socialize with me, much less help me out in the financial/living department. Thankfully, I've found a way to at least help my nasal feature appear healthier and less maimed - I now wear a translucent bandage strip over the most deformed and scarred parts of my nose, and thankfully, it honestly hides it all quite well, though the problems surrounding the surgery (malpractice, deformed appearance, criminal doctor, no chance at justice) are still on my mind quite a bit. The post-traumatic effects have been devastating for years. However, the biggest worry of all - the way my nose itself looks - is less on my mind now since I'm able to successfully hide the feature from my and other eyes.

Now, if I only could have a wand that makes my forehead smaller, my skin less oily and red, my chin less lumpy, and my facial/leg/arm hair less thick or even non-existent, I'd truly be in business! I truly made a horrible mistake with choosing that FFS procedure first though; if I had chosen hormones first, I almost garauntee my nose itself (the thick, fatty skin, which was my biggest problem) would have changed all on it's own, no surgery involved. Sadly, I was so tempted by a non-RLE procedure and because of the fact I wasn't sure of myself all those years back, that it really all turned into the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life. Not really the worst by standard definitions, but to my emotions and what specific things effect me, it was.

To bring some balance back into the thread - here's another exception. Hi there :icon_wave:

After being unemployed for over a year, I got a voluntary job as a part-time web administrator for a Christian charity, in a building also home to a good few other projects that are also Christian. After three months, they liked me so much they offered me a paid contract.

Then transition started. Given the stories like OP, bad experience with Christians, etc., I was bricking it. I didn't want to lose a job I'd barely started, especially since the atmosphere's so warm, accepting and everything else. Job is good, people are great, it's the first I've ever been in that I truly enjoy. One of my biggest prayers at the time was that none of that would change through my being trans. The worst thing about that period that my paranoia made me defensive and snappy. I wasn't the best of people during that time, to my shame.

Fast forward to now. I'm still working with this charity, in the same job and even have a new one. I part-volunteer, part earn for another charity in the same building - well, we've moved premises, but still. I'm getting asked to do website work for other projects. The atmosphere is still warm, accepting, etc. - in fact it got *better* when I came out as people gave encouraging replies. My boss often asks after my progress - she's like a second mum :3

I am sorry for all the people who have gone through so much crap just to be who they are. I can only shake my head in dismay and wonder what these guys' problem is >:(

As has been with every group to which a negative stigma was attached, when you stick together and fight for your rights, eventually you will start the pendulum swinging the other way.  Unity is crucial but we're not so good on that front.  But as the penalties for non-conformity ease and the misinformation is replaced by fact, we should start seeing more and more of us standing up for the community.

Right now we have the fearless, those with nothing more to lose, and those with a strong sense of right, standing on the front lines.  That's the way it always is.  But as long as we can keep the numbers of those who are us, but reject us, to a minimum, we should see an increase of supporters as time goes on.

Society knows murder and physical violence will only land them in jail but resorting to things like creating financial hardship is rarely against the law or just too hard to prove.  So many of us have snubbed our noses at those consequences.  Maybe, eventually, society will get the message their tactics are failing.

Quote from: Nemo on August 23, 2011, 12:47:13 PM
To bring some balance back into the thread - here's another exception. Hi there :icon_wave:

After being unemployed for over a year, I got a voluntary job as a part-time web administrator for a Christian charity, in a building also home to a good few other projects that are also Christian. After three months, they liked me so much they offered me a paid contract.

Then transition started. Given the stories like OP, bad experience with Christians, etc., I was bricking it.>:(

Was the charity associated (not asking for the name of the Charity) with a particular denomination? It sounds like it has had a very positive effect in your life!

What I find interesting is how some people seem to disregard what seems to be fairly accepted information, and disparage attempts at putting actual numbers on it.  It almost feels like the attempts to disavow global warming.  Not because it is wrong, just that is contrary to some preconceived notion.  I don't see how anyone can formulate a plan deal with it in their career without knowing the stats.  There are certainly plenty of unknowable's that have to be dealt with by everyone.  Look at the suicide and attempted suicide rates amongst  our people.  That seems to be accepted by the medical establishment.  I don't believe that this occurs because of merely coming to terms with being trans.  It is a direct offshoot of the social expense of being trans.

By the way is anyone else afraid of using any words to describe us?  You're going to offend someone when none is meant.  I wonder what cis people feel about it?

Quote from: SandraJane on August 23, 2011, 04:36:07 PM
Was the charity associated (not asking for the name of the Charity) with a particular denomination? It sounds like it has had a very positive effect in your life!

No particular denomination, although both my boss and I are Anglican (CofE) - she's more conservative than me, but despite that she's still been great about it :)

And yes, it has :) I'm well aware, however, that I've been incredibly lucky.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on August 23, 2011, 06:48:53 PM
By the way is anyone else afraid of using any words to describe us?  You're going to offend someone when none is meant.  I wonder what cis people feel about it?

I think a lot of the problem trans people have with that comes from not wanting to attach themselves to the stigma.  If being trans meant you'd be treated like royalty, I doubt you'd hear any of us say, "Hey! Stop treating me so special!"

Kia Ora,

::) I'm broke...but I'm happy... and  :icon_drunk: with contentment....

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 25, 2011, 04:55:08 PM
I think a lot of the problem trans people have with that comes from not wanting to attach themselves to the stigma.  If being trans meant you'd be treated like royalty, I doubt you'd hear any of us say, "Hey! Stop treating me so special!"

More likey is that many others are of the same mindset I am- we don't carry the label of our medical condition.  We got treatment and moved on with life, with the condition no longer present.  It is no different than the fact that I don't describe myself to people with an initial introduction that includes discussion of an ACL issue...

Having previously had a transsexual condition is NOT an identity in the same manner as being a lesbian happens to be...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 26, 2011, 09:46:09 AM
More likey is that many others are of the same mindset I am- we don't carry the label of our medical condition.  We got treatment and moved on with life, with the condition no longer present.  It is no different than the fact that I don't describe myself to people with an initial introduction that includes discussion of an ACL issue...

Having previously had a transsexual condition is NOT an identity in the same manner as being a lesbian happens to be...

Just yesterday I told my friend (someone I've known for 18 years) that I'm ready to move on with my life.  That I won't deny my history, but it's just that: history.  At my next job, wherever that may be, I'm not coming out because I feel in my heart that I have nothing to come out with.  When I look in the mirror, all I see is a woman.  One who needs a certain surgery, but otherwise all woman. :laugh:  Almost every trace of the old life is gone except for the people I love, who are invaluable to me.  I've taken what I wanted from my former identity and the rest can go out with the trash.

My friend said, "It sounds like you're just Zoë now" and gave me a big hug.  There's a reason he's been my friend for over half my life. :)  And he was right!  I'm just me now.  A unified person for the first time in my life.  It's a beautiful feeling.

It was just last week that my friend's girlfriend (also one of my best friends) told me that, since I've come out to everyone I know, all the people I meet in the future will never know me to be any different than how I am now.  I thought about it for a few minutes and it gave me a rather satisfied, glowy feeling.