lately I have been going out as female a lot. And I haven't really noticed anything out of the ordinary.
as far as i can tell I get no weird looks. no double takes, I might've gotten laughed at but at the same time I feel like the people laughing dont really notice me and are laughing at something else.
I try to be aware of my surroundings to see if anyone's talking about me ect. but so far I dont really have anything to go off of.
I feel like If I wasn't trans and in their shoes and I noticed someone who didn't pass id purposefully ignore them to be polite. I wouldn't stare, I'd probably avoid looking at them altogether. and If i did have a comment id wait till they were well away from earshot. I feel like most people will do this.
I feel like most people are doing this.
so the question is how do you really get affirmation that your passing or not? i mean is this typical for pass or no pass?
I suppsoe I could try talking to strangers but I'm way too shy for that :3
With all this being said I have had only one moment where I got ma'amed. I parked my car and got out and someone behind me a decent ways off shouted "hey ma'am its $7 to park there" . I was really far away and it was my back. plus i had a skirt on to reinforce the idea so I dont count it really:p
Well purely from the photos ive seen of you i would imagine a lot of people would think you were a genetic female or wouldnt be sure enough of themselves to say anything/react (because obviously it could be really offensive to ask a gg if she was trans but not offensive at all to say that to a trans person ::) ). You do look good though, keep smiling, hold your head up high and if anyone says anything to you, brush it off, its one person at the end of the day and most people are actually quite nice.
Also, paranoia is your worst enemy, it ruins me sometimes!
If you've ever been out and in situations when you know for sure you weren't, then it is real easy to tell the difference :(
Yes, the PC factor is there and people tend to be more polite. That does not apply at all to the high school and especially female crowd which show No Mercy.
IMHO, I can't be greedy. If people aren't laughing, finger pointing, staring, making obvious remarks to their friends, I can settle for that. In fact I love how I can now venture out and not be noticed at my towering height. A major change from the past. Sometimes I get a look I am not sure of. Sometimes I just know a guy is checking me out and not thinking something else. Most times I am just another anonymous woman.
Try not to let paranoia rule your gut feelings. It is so hard for us to honestly and fairly evaluate how we look. Being able to pass is like a final exam. Revel in passing it ;D
Well, having been fulltime now for about 7 months, I don't think about it much, and I never did put much store in whether strangers in public think I pass or not. In the very beginning (about a year ago), I was really horrible, I didn't pass at all, but I was out in public regularly, and nobody said "Boo." At the time, I thought I passed, but I know now that strangers are kind, or at least ignore you most of the time. And self-confidence is EVERYTHING. As bad as I looked, I had a BIG smile, and carried myself with confidence, and I think that made the difference.
These days, there are certain aspects that would tip someone off, like my hair, and my voice, but I've met a fair number of people recently that I spend some time with, like I joined a church choir as a guitarist, and the women in the choir just accept me - they refer to me with the right pronouns and everything. No question. And again, a large part of it is simply that I carry myself with confidence. I'm just living my life as my authentic self, and people respond to that.
So don't worry so much, you look WAY better than I did when I was starting out, you obviously don't need bad wigs (like I did), and you pass really well just as you are! Greet the world with confidence, and it will respond positively. You're beautiful. Believe it.
I would have though that people not caring is the best outcome, if not the objective.
I recall, in my brief time, living as female, I absolutely didn't care. It just didn't occur to me to be frank. I was in a small town in the Scottish highlands which were and are, very conservative.
If people don't expect there to be a problem then there isn't one. But if you go up to someone and ask, for example, would anyone know that I was born male? The answer will probably be yes.
Come to think of it, if you have the confidence, you might care to walk up to a complete stranger and ask if they had figured out that you were actually born female? Is your male appearance complete convincing?
Quote from: spacial on November 12, 2011, 08:25:05 AMCome to think of it, if you have the confidence, you might care to walk up to a complete stranger and ask if they had figured out that you were actually born female? Is your male appearance complete convincing?
Hehe! Good one! That might actually be fun... :laugh:
Quote from: JoanneB on November 12, 2011, 07:46:38 AM
If you've ever been out and in situations when you know for sure you weren't, then it is real easy to tell the difference :(
Yes, the PC factor is there and people tend to be more polite. That does not apply at all to the high school and especially female crowd which show No Mercy.
IMHO, I can't be greedy. If people aren't laughing, finger pointing, staring, making obvious remarks to their friends, I can settle for that. In fact I love how I can now venture out and not be noticed at my towering height. A major change from the past. Sometimes I get a look I am not sure of. Sometimes I just know a guy is checking me out and not thinking something else. Most times I am just another anonymous woman.
Try not to let paranoia rule your gut feelings. It is so hard for us to honestly and fairly evaluate how we look. Being able to pass is like a final exam. Revel in passing it ;D
Well said ! At 5 10 1/2 and small boobs, I am not always sure why other people are looking or laughing, and you know what, I do not care, I do not care if I pass or not, it is their problem not mine.
Jen61
PS It helps that at work and most people I interact in a daily basis know that I am a female with a birth defect under repair.
What's it matter when the end result (from your perspective) is the same?
People not caring is a form of passing, in my opinion. However, analyze the situation yourself. Take a look at how people look at you. Do they stare at you with a confused look on their face? Do they look at you and then quickly look away? Do they look at you with an interested look on their face? Do they look at all? Use people's body language as your ultimate judge of whether or not you pass. Truthfully, unless you ask every single person you interact with whether or not they think you're trans, you'll never actually know. Just keep in mind that passing isn't something achieved and sustained. Every single day matters whether you'll pass or not, so always try to look your best.
Well if you see people pointing at you while laughing then that's your sign! Other then that i wouldn't worry about it. :P
Its best not to think to much into what other people think. Their opinion shouldn't matter even if they are vocal about it. They just random people you may or may not run into again.
I think you'll know. Trans people who are awkward or starting out do get noticed.
But people being PC? Hardly. Most people don't understand trans people and spotting one does make some of them uncomfortable.
But yeah...Look for wtf looks, people whispering, etc
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 12, 2011, 05:16:12 PM
I think you'll know. Trans people who are awkward or starting out do get noticed.
But people being PC? Hardly. Most people don't understand trans people and spotting one does make some of them uncomfortable.
But yeah...Look for wtf looks, people whispering, etc
The answer is really simple: "Ask yourself if you live in a fly-over state?"
If you do, people will immediately give you cat calls if they clock you.
If not, they might or might not clock you but they won't be shouting at you in either case.
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 12, 2011, 11:50:46 PM
The answer is really simple: "Ask yourself if you live in a fly-over state?"
If you do, people will immediately give you cat calls if they clock you.
If not, they might or might not clock you but they won't be shouting at you in either case.
I thought they would just laugh or point or go WTF
I feel like when I'm out as male I get more attention.
people would always come up to me and try to make conversation. an back when I used to dress really punx I got tons of stares. so I know what its like to be stared at.
I just feel sort of invisible and ignored and I cant tell if thats passing or people trying to well ignore me because I dont.
heh maybe I just make an ugly girl so no one pays any attention :p
I so often want to ask complete strangers what gender they see. It's kinda tiring to always have to pay attention to more subtle cues.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 13, 2011, 01:51:38 AM
I just feel sort of invisible and ignored and I cant tell if thats passing or people trying to well ignore me because I dont.
I think that is a function of social deference, I don't think that most people consider it polite to randomly walk up and make conversation with women (especially men.) Somehow for men, speaking to 'strange' women = trying to steal someone's girlfriend/trying to cheat on your girlfriend.
Besides, have you ever tried making a pass on a beautiful girl? Most people, myself included, need a little liquid courage. ;)
Quote from: Felix on November 13, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
I so often want to ask complete strangers what gender they see. It's kinda tiring to always have to pay attention to more subtle cues.
me too. specially when i open my mouth or i'm just generally looking a bit like crap, i just want to ask everyone "come on, you must be seeing it?? admit it, damn it!". I know it's a weird thing to freak out about, but it's weird how everyones just acting as normal. there are absolutely no weird reactions, even when there should be! I mean, not even that uberreligious guy who believes homosexuals are posessed by demons and were abused as children acts different, and he knows i'm transsexual (at least yesterday a friend told me something he said about me. now i finally know how he stands in regard to me).
it'd be really nice to know if i'm really passing or everyones just really that good at not showing what they're thinking.
Quote from: Layn on November 13, 2011, 05:05:15 AM
me too. specially when i open my mouth or i'm just generally looking a bit like crap, i just want to ask everyone "come on, you must be seeing it?? admit it, damn it!". I know it's a weird thing to freak out about, but it's weird how everyones just acting as normal. there are absolutely no weird reactions, even when there should be! I mean, not even that uberreligious guy who believes homosexuals are posessed by demons and were abused as children acts different, and he knows i'm transsexual (at least yesterday a friend told me something he said about me. now i finally know how he stands in regard to me).
it'd be really nice to know if i'm really passing or everyones just really that good at not showing what they're thinking.
I'd care to venture that social anxiety/paranoia kill more trans women that closeted straight guys haha.
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 13, 2011, 04:55:37 AM
I think that is a function of social deference, I don't think that most people consider it polite to randomly walk up and make conversation with women (especially men.) Somehow for men, speaking to 'strange' women = trying to steal someone's girlfriend/trying to cheat on your girlfriend.
Besides, have you ever tried making a pass on a beautiful girl? Most people, myself included, need a little liquid courage. ;)
hehe I guess I dont haev high enough self esteem to think of myself as that "beautiful girl">.<
i didnt really think of that though, tahts an interesting point.
Quote from: Layn on November 13, 2011, 05:05:15 AM
me too. specially when i open my mouth or i'm just generally looking a bit like crap, i just want to ask everyone "come on, you must be seeing it?? admit it, damn it!". I know it's a weird thing to freak out about, but it's weird how everyones just acting as normal. there are absolutely no weird reactions, even when there should be! I mean, not even that uberreligious guy who believes homosexuals are posessed by demons and were abused as children acts different, and he knows i'm transsexual (at least yesterday a friend told me something he said about me. now i finally know how he stands in regard to me).
it'd be really nice to know if i'm really passing or everyones just really that good at not showing what they're thinking.
this right here is exactly what I'm getting at
its been nervewrecking.
I feel like theres no real way to know if your passing without asking people directly. but of course thats not gonna happen haha.
When i was living as male I had a giant mohawk. and I got stared at all the time. blatantly too. people would secretly try to take pictures. laugh, ask me about it to the point of annoyance....I figured I was gonna get the same reactions so Id know if I was passing or not. but that doesnt seem to be the case.
cause I know I cant pass that well already. theres just no way.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 13, 2011, 05:20:58 AM
cause I know I cant pass that well already. theres just no way.
well, i have found that we pass better than we think. If my friends don't think my voice is too bad, and they insist they can't see any signs of beard or beardshadow at all among other things, then someone who doesn't even know a thing about me, will never even come close to the thought if i might be transsexual. Heck, considering the way some guys have been acting, i'd say at least those definitely don't suspect a thing. I'm sure it's the same with you.
still, that's what i say now. when i'm actually around people i can't help but wonder what people i interact with think anyway.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 13, 2011, 05:20:58 AM
hehe I guess I dont haev high enough self esteem to think of myself as that "beautiful girl">.<
i didnt really think of that though, tahts an interesting point.
cause I know I cant pass that well already. theres just no way.
With all due respect madame, you're completely wrong in this regard.
I happen to think that your very attractive, and barring your voice/mannerisms, I would peg you at 100% pass rate.
IMHO, of course ;)
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 13, 2011, 05:44:04 AM
With all due respect madame, you're completely wrong in this regard.
I happen to think that your very attractive, and barring your voice/mannerisms, I would peg you at 100% pass rate.
IMHO, of course ;)
*blush* goodness, I just can not wipe this smile off my face. :3
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 13, 2011, 05:53:57 AM
*blush* goodness, I just can not wipe this smile off my face. :3
See! how can you not pass when projecting such an aura of confidence? ;)
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 12, 2011, 07:17:13 AMso the question is how do you really get affirmation that your passing or not? i mean is this typical for pass or no pass?
lol In the "polite" Bible belt South "the test" is EASY -> fix yer hair *no makeup* and, while *dressing male androgynous only* . . .
see if they call you "Ma'am" or "Sir" !Cannot not tell you how much fun I have with this but obviously . . .
. . . ALL depends on which *marker* accents You the best!( ps: lol oh yea!
dumb kids calling / tugging "daddy" is dead give-away everytime! )
The general rule is, if you get passed, you pass. As time goes by it is less nerve wracking.
Quote from: EmmaM on November 13, 2011, 12:37:12 PM
The general rule is, if you get passed, you pass. As time goes by it is less nerve wracking.
Is it that anxiety always present?
Anxiety will vary with the individual. Just like many don't give a rat's you know what if they do or don't pass. "It's their problem not mine" attitude is great if you have that sort of personality.
With the level of self confidence I have gained this past year or so my anxiety has greatly decreased. I am almost at the point of not really caring. A good part of the hesitation I have is due to living in Hee-Haw Redneckville WV. My wife worries far too much over my personal safety, which I cannot blame her for. Better to err on the side of caution and have some level of anxiety then to take unnecessary chances and dealing with the consequences.
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 13, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
Is it that anxiety always present?
No. IF you don't pass and you still live as a woman, eventually things normalize with you as the "different" one. If you can't handle being different, then you gotta assess some things about yourself (this response has no weight for the OP, who is adorable)
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 13, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
Is it that anxiety always present?
If you do pass as female, eventually you just kind of forget about it.
I started assuming I was doing ok when people smiled at me and didn't seem uncomfortable for the most part. And even now, years later, some people might read me as trans or wonder, but they don't say anything, its just a look on their face or something that tips it off. I work with the public, so I see and talk to plenty of people, locals and tourists alike.
Today at bus I met "one of us" (maybe she live somewhere near because it is not first time, or is here big concentration :D)
At first quick look it is just a woman about 35-40 years maybe little too young dressed for her age, but at second look there is some discrepancies like untidy hands, male skin texture at face (she have short curly hairs pulled back, face shape was ok) and broad shoulders, so after detail inspection I can 95% sure say she is "male" (I think without any hormones)
But she was confident, and no one had any reaction, no staring, laughing, just like one of other common women
So if you don't attract focus people just don't care.
I tend to think that the real not-passing rate is maybe 10 to 20 times or so more than the passing rate you perceive, due to people not wanting to stare, or be impolite, or that they simply don't care even though you don't pass.
So if it seems like you don't pass 1% of the time, you probably don't pass another extra few or 10 percent of the time.
If it seems like you don't pass 10% of the time, you probably in fact don't pass at all...
If it seems like you don't pass 0.01% of the time (say only one person out of roughly 10,000 people you've walked by on the streets seem to look at you curiously), then even your real non-passing rate would be negligible!
That's what I guess anyway. Could be completely wrong though!
And about confidence, ...
Quote from: Medusa on November 14, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
But she was confident,
... I find it extremely important. I noticed another transsexual woman in my area (whose passability seems to vary a lot from day to day) these few months, and when I smiled at her, she nervously looked away. I thought, okay, that sooo gives it away...
Quote from: apple pie on November 14, 2011, 09:49:51 AM
I tend to think that the real not-passing rate is maybe 10 to 20 times or so more than the passing rate you perceive, due to people not wanting to stare, or be impolite, or that they simply don't care even though you don't pass.
So if it seems like you don't pass 1% of the time, you probably don't pass another extra few or 10 percent of the time.
If it seems like you don't pass 10% of the time, you probably in fact don't pass at all...
If it seems like you don't pass 0.01% of the time (say only one person out of roughly 10,000 people you've walked by on the streets seem to look at you curiously), then even your real non-passing rate would be negligible!
That's what I guess anyway. Could be completely wrong though!
When I used to see ts's as a boy...I used to think, "Boy that woman is not easy on the eyes", "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!" "wtf is wrong with that man?" or "she's pretty, but I know she's born male". I pay attention to every single person in my line of sight.
I see them in SF sometimes, if they are within a certain range. I don't stare. Unless it's so obvious what they are. Everyone looks at everyone else though, so they could be looking at your pumpkin orange hair or piercings rather than your gender.
I've recently gotten into wearing big big hair, Catherine Denevue makeup, and my style hasn't quite caught up. Men check me out, women look at the style. Don't fret about this stuff...people aren't covering their eyes when they see you like I've seen with some transpeople. People could be looking at you for a million reasons besides being trans...and don't try to get inside their heads.
You don't belong inside other peoples heads.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 14, 2011, 02:58:39 PM
People could be looking at you for a million reasons besides being trans
+1
there are lots and lots and lots of natural women who come across "->-bleeped-<-" in fact one of my husband's good friends from work is a young girl who has no chest and a a sort of guyish face and even a weird neck area thing that almost could look adams appley. She's got the most typical Staten Island girl voice though, like Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny. She was born a female biologically.
She's got the same kind of look as you as far as style goes, and piercings, and you are much prettier than she is. And it's funny because she is the most adorable girl I know. I used to buy clothes for her all the time at the Salvation Army because she could fit into the designer clothes that were too small for me. She loved vintage dresses.
She's a girl because she's one of those people who is "such a girl." And she's got boyfriends etc. But if you took her picture and put it up here I bet a lot of people would give her pointers about how she could improve to pass better. One of her downsides is she can't grow her hair long no matter what she does.
Everyone has something that isn't perfect. It is sad to me as an older woman to see so many young girls sucked into the idea that you have to pass a certain way.
I think it boils down to more than passing. I think it wanders into the territory of not respecting yourself the way you are and feeling inferior. And those kinds of feelings, if you have them, will not go away if you pass and are beautiful and come across perfectly.
All they will do is shift to another new area of your life. When you constantly worry about what others think of you, it hurts your identity, whether your gender is matched up or not.
You are beautiful and cute, and I think you remind me of this girl I mentioned above. She's adorable. So are you. Be happy. :angel:
The cashier at kmart kept staring at me tonight. She was a young girl about 18.
It was probably nothing, as I have a tendency to stare deadly at people if we make eye contact. So something as simple as that gets misinterpreted and they stare back.
Quote from: mixie on November 14, 2011, 03:29:46 PM
there are lots and lots and lots of natural women who come across "->-bleeped-<-" in fact one of my husband's good friends from work is a young girl who has no chest and a a sort of guyish face and even a weird neck area thing that almost could look adams appley. She's got the most typical Staten Island girl voice though, like Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny. She was born a female biologically.
Heck, consider Ann Coulter. Rumors of her being MTF just refuse to die even though there is plenty of documented evidence that she really is cis. I think the things that people key into when flagging her as trans are her prominent adam's apple, somewhat deep voice, sharp jaw, and her rather masculine level of verbal aggression when speaking publicly. My point being, anyone who claims to have
infallible "trans-dar" is wrong. Anyone transperson who thinks he/she
always passes is wrong. Any cisperson who thinks he/she could
never be mistaken for being trans is wrong. Anyone can be clocked or misgendered and anyone can unknowingly misgender someone else.
Plus, you can never really know what someone else is thinking about you...if they are even thinking of you at all. That person who refused to meet your stare may just not be comfortable making eye contact with strangers. That person who just smiled at you in passing could be inwardly greatly shocked at the "obvious transperson", yet trying to act polite. That person who just glared at you may have been thinking about their bad day at the office and not have even noticed you standing there. That person who just rudely shoved past you in the store may have actually pegged you as a "normal" cis and was simply in a hurry and not watching their manners. You just don't know. People's thoughts and actions often don't match.
My standard of success, when it comes to passing, is being able to go about my business without being assaulted, openly mocked/disrespected, or discriminated against. If people are clocking me but continue to at least treat me with basic respect and human dignity, that's good enough for me. But then, I'm not really "out" yet, so maybe my feelings on the matter will change when actually faced with the reality of RLE. I recognize that possibility.
If you are usually being accepted and respected, whether you are actually passing or not, consider yourself lucky and treat yourself to a smile. It's really the best any of us (trans or cis) can reasonably expect in an imperfect world.
Quote from: Dana_H on November 15, 2011, 10:35:45 PM
Heck, consider Ann Coulter. Rumors of her being MTF just refuse to die even though there is plenty of documented evidence that she really is cis. I think the things that people key into when flagging her as trans are her prominent adam's apple, somewhat deep voice, sharp jaw, and her rather masculine level of verbal aggression when speaking publicly. My point being, anyone who claims to have infallible "trans-dar" is wrong. Anyone transperson who thinks he/she always passes is wrong. Any cisperson who thinks he/she could never be mistaken for being trans is wrong. Anyone can be clocked or misgendered and anyone can unknowingly misgender someone else.
Plus, you can never really know what someone else is thinking about you...if they are even thinking of you at all. That person who refused to meet your stare may just not be comfortable making eye contact with strangers. That person who just smiled at you in passing could be inwardly greatly shocked at the "obvious transperson", yet trying to act polite. That person who just glared at you may have been thinking about their bad day at the office and not have even noticed you standing there. That person who just rudely shoved past you in the store may have actually pegged you as a "normal" cis and was simply in a hurry and not watching their manners. You just don't know. People's thoughts and actions often don't match.
My standard of success, when it comes to passing, is being able to go about my business without being assaulted, openly mocked/disrespected, or discriminated against. If people are clocking me but continue to at least treat me with basic respect and human dignity, that's good enough for me. But then, I'm not really "out" yet, so maybe my feelings on the matter will change when actually faced with the reality of RLE. I recognize that possibility.
If you are usually being accepted and respected, whether you are actually passing or not, consider yourself lucky and treat yourself to a smile. It's really the best any of us (trans or cis) can reasonably expect in an imperfect world.
+1
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-ash2%2F370053_1525804420_1086806839_n.jpg&hash=4d17c3f7b1b25b4981ad0459bf9611f83d5dd15b)
This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.
Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.
I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.
But I am upfront about everything with everyone.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-ash2%2F370053_1525804420_1086806839_n.jpg&hash=4d17c3f7b1b25b4981ad0459bf9611f83d5dd15b)
This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.
Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.
I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.
But I am upfront about everything with everyone.
She resembles Demi Lovato...though I know that wasn't the point...carry on.
Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 15, 2011, 11:14:43 PM
She resembles Demi Lovato...though I know that wasn't the point...carry on.
Demi Lavato doesn't have a large skull, supraorbital ridges, and wide jaw.
She reminds me of the Tmobile girl. And Elle I wish you werent across the country form me, I'd love to have you do my makeup :)
I'd like to comment that passing with cispeople, passing with transpeople, and passing with Mahsa are entirely different categories of passing.
Really old people are my favorite. I almost always pass with them, and they're so nice. :)
Quote from: meatgrinder on November 15, 2011, 11:20:58 PM
She reminds me of the Tmobile girl. And Elle I wish you werent across the country form me, I'd love to have you do my makeup :)
Yeah.
Btw members of SUSANS, I sure clarify that when I said "passing" I meant as an ULTRA FEMININE FEMALE. It's hard to pull off and requires a lot of work... Same for any cisfemale. So much is expected of them.
I mean, um, passing with Elle. She is quite the expert.
Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:26:41 PM
passing with Mahsa are entirely different categories of passing.
Not really. I think a lot of it has to do with being a former catty male with straight guy eyes.
Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:28:02 PM
I mean, um, passing with Elle. She is quite the expert.
That is a complete lie.
I am convinced regardless of who it is, cis or trans, if you stare at someone long enough you will find something that "does not pass". Therefore I say, within the first few seconds of looking at someone if you did not find something odd and even then if it does not give the inclination to believe they are of the opposite gender right away, then the person passes.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:28:31 PM
Not really. I think a lot of it has to do with being a former catty male with straight guy eyes.
Well I still think you can clock people a lot better than I can, and I know I can clock people a lot better than most cispeople, so it definitely takes different levels of passability for you, me, and the average person.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:28:52 PM
That is a complete lie.
;D
Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 15, 2011, 11:32:58 PM
I am convinced regardless of who it is, cis or trans, if you stare at someone long enough you will find something that "does not pass". Therefore I say, within the first few seconds of looking at someone if you did not find something odd and even then if it does not give the inclination to believe they are of the opposite gender right away, then the person passes.
I once went up to this girl in ross and said, "You have a big skull, are you trans?" she got pissed off at me.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:37:21 PM
I once went up to this girl in ross and said, "You have a big skull, are you trans?" she got pissed off at me.
Lol that is awesome. And terrible. Was she?
Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:36:50 PM
Well I still think you can clock people a lot better than I can, and I know I can clock people a lot better than most cispeople, so it definitely takes different levels of passability for you, me, and the average person.
;D
I just trust the word of the 100% straight male. Since they are the ones who buy me lunch and want me to send them my photos of me. Honestly, men are more analytical. But again, it's opinions and does it really matter?
Quote from: Felix on November 15, 2011, 11:39:12 PM
Lol that is awesome. And terrible. Was she?
Some people don't admit it.
She said no. But I am pretty sure she was.
She was wearing sunglasses inside too... It was on Market/5th in SF.
I am bi-gendered, so "passing" gender isn't something that concerns me, but I am a person of Goddess-sized proportions, so I have a whole other kind of anxiety about discrimination/insult to worry about. I've been working with The Four Agreements (which is an AWESOME book that's helped me a lot!), particularly the agreement about not taking anything personally. I talked myself through it and realized that anyone who worked so hard to try to bring me down was probably pretty insecure inside. But when thinking about that doesn't work so good, I just pull out this little gem:
You stop worrying about what other people think about you when you realize how little they do.
-- Mark Twain
:) ~~E
Quote from: Ellie Ryan on November 15, 2011, 11:59:17 PM
You stop worrying about what other people think about you when you realize how little they do.
-- Mark Twain
Everyone sees me through my own eyes. I literally think people are as analytical as me... But being on this board, there are sure a lot of beautiful transmen and women there...that isn't analytical.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 16, 2011, 12:02:09 AM
Everyone sees me through my own eyes. I literally think people are as analytical as me... But being on this board, there are sure a lot of beautiful transmen and women there...that isn't analytical.
I have high-functioning autism, so this is something to which I can relate. I spend an awful lot of my time in the practice of epistemology (which is sort of like thinking about thinking and wondering what and how others think). It's really hard for me to imagine someone with a quiet mind. My wife, Dana_H on these boards (who made the post about Ann Coulter on this very thread!), has an extremely still mind. Sometimes I'm jealous. Sometimes I'm baffled. But I almost never relate. Our marriage is the space where a very still pond meets a wild, babbling brook. :D
~~E
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-ash2%2F370053_1525804420_1086806839_n.jpg&hash=4d17c3f7b1b25b4981ad0459bf9611f83d5dd15b)
This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.
Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.
I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.
But I am upfront about everything with everyone.
You already knew this girl was trans, didn't you? Sorry, but there is nothing 'wrong' (as in vestiges of T poisoning) with her face. I bet you 'clock' ciswomen all day long.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 12:30:40 AM
You already knew this girl was trans, didn't you? Sorry, but there is nothing 'wrong' (as in vestiges of T poisoning) with her face. I bet you 'clock' ciswomen all day long.
Her face has a masculine edge to it...I can't explain it. But based on her jaw width, nose shape, and forehead. I just know she was born male.
Nope. I don't see cis or trans through rose colored glasses. Trans are fairly rare in my area. I see them more in SF.
She is very pretty. But I see beautiful DQs who look exactly like her and it is public knowledge she is trans. She does vids.
What I'm betting though is that if it wasn't public knowledge, you wouldn't know. Look at those shoulders, for starters. Many women have so called masculine features. Probably every ciswoman has a few masculine features. I had a masculine build and fat distribution but a very feminine face for example. I bet you would have clocked me as trans.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 01:01:25 AM
What I'm betting though is that if it wasn't public knowledge, you wouldn't know. Look at those shoulders, for starters. Many women have so called masculine features. Probably every ciswoman has a few masculine features. I had a masculine build and fat distribution but a very feminine face for example. I bet you would have clocked me as trans.
Why are we arguing this? Seriously. My opinion isn't gonna change and does it really matter overall?
Uhh... I would think there was something up if I saw her.
I live in SF. I was part of the gay community...and I am an observant person.
What matters is you're holding trans women up to some standard that ciswomen don't even meet.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 01:18:43 AM
What matters is you're holding trans women up to some standard that ciswomen don't even meet.
Nope.
The beautiful girl you referenced could have been any cisgirl strolling through any mall in the US. Now, I am a fan of honesty, sometimes even brutal, but there is a point when it gets ridiculous.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 01:33:52 AM
The beautiful girl you referenced could have been any cisgirl strolling through any mall in the US. Now, I am a fan of honesty, sometimes even brutal, but there is a point when it gets ridiculous.
Perhaps. We agree to disagree.
well i jsut got back from a show tonight.
at said show a stranger walked up to me and said "whats up man?" whilest I was in a skirt and make-up...>.>
guess I dont pass too well yet. got my answer anyway.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 16, 2011, 01:46:42 AM
well i jsut got back from a show tonight.
at said show a stranger walked up to me and said "whats up man?" whilest I was in a skirt and make-up...>.>
guess I dont pass too well yet. got my answer anyway.
Did he treat you like a dude? My female friends and I call each other "man" and "browich"
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 16, 2011, 01:39:27 AM
Perhaps. We agree to disagree.
Perhaps. I've nothing against catty or even bitchy but it's much better when it makes sense. :laugh:
I hold different people to different standards. I don't have any particular standard for 'trans' persons as a whole, or 'cis' persons either. Perhaps I use finer shadings when grouping people.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 01:51:08 AM
Perhaps. I've nothing against catty or even bitchy but it's much better when it makes sense. :laugh:
I must apologize I've been having some health issues lately and took a vicodin. I might be high when arguing here.
I didn't really carry on a conversation. i just said hi and im good and he carried on his way. more like a passing greeting then actual intent on conversing. but the way it was said made me clearly feel like he was labeling as male.
also some weird guy came up and introduced himself, and when i told him my name he got even weirder and left...but I tihnk he was on something so i discredit that...he really was strange.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 16, 2011, 01:46:42 AM
well i jsut got back from a show tonight.
at said show a stranger walked up to me and said "whats up man?" whilest I was in a skirt and make-up...>.>
guess I dont pass too well yet. got my answer anyway.
Happens.
You can tweak the situation and apply mental gymnastics. If they were willing to treat you well and address you while assuming you were a "man in a dress," then what does that say about them?
Okay, I have a co worker that talks to everyone and tells them I'm a boy--------
NOW, I should have a very serious problem with that, and it does rub me the wrong way, but you have to understand that I wear a name tag that says Emma, we are given a uniform, I wear full makeup to work every day, 70 to 80 people out of 100 who walk through those doors either don't give a ****, or they think I'm just some chick and they address me as a woman. Besides, the ->-bleeped-<- has been kinda quiet, and my coworkers have been putting in the effort to call me "she" anyway.
There is no magic wand that won't cost you about 8 - 15k to wave (for the privilege of cracking your skull and tearing into your face) that can make the feeling of uncertainty go away immediately. Just stick to it and show them you're serious, try and remain confident and happy, this can take some time.
Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 16, 2011, 02:01:17 AM
I must apologize I've been having some health issues lately and took a vicodin. I might be high when arguing here.
That's quite alright. We've all been there, hon. :) Just be sure to deliver the standard of cattiness I've come to associate with your profile once you're feeling better, dear.
Quote from: Forum Admin on November 16, 2011, 02:30:53 AM
That's quite alright. We've all been there, hon. :) Just be sure to deliver the standard of cattiness I've come to associate with your profile once you're feeling better, dear.
Awww thanks.
Just had a headache, but I have a date with this cute geek apparently. He is hot.
Small test
Trans or cis, why, pass? (age 31)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.2011.super.cz%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2F17582.jpg%3F20110930102036&hash=5448f7442f1615ad5dbab306ac069f705f398a73)
See this is the kind of thing I mean. I would say you look like a cis woman but since you put the picture up here if I had to find "clues" that you might be a trans I would say the scarf at the neck might be covering an adams apple.
But it's only because I'm being asked to look and pick at it.
Obviously there are some women on here that have masculine features (you don't seem to to me) but many ciswomen I've seen have masculine features including myself.
The only thing that would make me think a woman was trans if if she had a five o'clock shadow. :laugh:
Quote from: Elle Woods 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:09:36 PM
I think transpeople see each other through rose colored glasses.... I tend to be a bit more objective.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-ash2%2F370053_1525804420_1086806839_n.jpg&hash=4d17c3f7b1b25b4981ad0459bf9611f83d5dd15b)
This girl does vids on youtube, she think she passes 100% and that "no one can tell". Listen, she's beautiful and presents herself as a babe(like me) but one look at her face reveals that she was born an XY.
Do people respect her? You bet.
Do guys love her? You bet.
Can some people tell she's not a genetic female? You bet.
I work in cosmetics. I see male and female faces all day. I've turned men into women and women into men. It is very hard for me to look at someone and tell them, "you pass" because passing requires so much work.
But I am upfront about everything with everyone.
But you present your opinion as if it is the "Real Deal" the way most people go through life. Most people aren't out there with their transdar gunning to catch out people for being trans.
Perhaps the social group you hang out with and the line of work you do will create a sort of paradigm for this but it's your personal paradigm, it's not the way the average person moves through the world.
If you want to give yourself a gold star every time you clock a trans then kudos to you. But the woman in this picture is beautiful and probably more beautiful than the average woman I've seen around and about.
Do you live in a very homogenized society where people come from the same cultures? I see many European and Mediterranean women who are much more masculine than the woman in that picture and I'd never "clock" them or even consider it.
If you are on the lookout for something, you will see what you want to see eventually. I wonder how many cisgendered women you've clocked as trans.
;D
Just live your life and stop worrying. You'll pass more that way.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 16, 2011, 10:16:17 AM
Just live your life and stop worrying. You'll pass more that way.
Color this statement true, :)
I had a cis-male roomate in college. When i first met him i notice that he had female pelvis. He is a pretty generic red-blooded hero American male. My point is that it rather common to find traits corresponding to the opposite gender in people. The cause is genetics. Most women are consciously and unconsciously aware of it, and they use tricks to disguise them. Guys on theother hand are pretty oblivious to it, in denial or both. Males do not tell other guys about their perceived female traits least you are picking a fight.
This therad reminds me of a beach competition held several years ago in Florida. The prankster put a dozen guy with nice legs (shaved of course) in high heels and standing behind a curtain so only the legs could be seen. Then asked the audience to pick the most beautifully womanly leg. Everybody thought the "ladies" had nice legs, but when revealed their true gender, then people start noticing the male characteristics. So,like said previously, the test is a failure if you have a pre-notion.
Jen61
PS. I fund the pictures of most ladies in this forum very female-like and pretty. I found most women I encounter in my life pretty too.
Short of developing telepathic powers, you will never know what people are really thinking. And it's really a big waste of time to worry about strangers' opinions of you anyway, considering you'll probably see them only once in your entire life.
I've also noticed that if you meet a person's glance then you glance back twice, it sends off the vibe that you are worried about something and they pick up on it. Best to just glance once then only glance twice if you are trying to flirt with that person. >:-)
tell friends, ask them wether they could have tell that you were trans
Quote from: lonely girl on November 17, 2011, 12:40:11 AM
tell friends, ask them wether they could have tell that you were trans
anyone I've ever asked said I look good and they wouldn't give me a second look if they didn't know me.
but the thing is they do know me so I cant take it as I pass or not.
I'm not beating myself up over this but its something I'm really curious about. I still go out and still don't care what people think. but id really like to know if I pass. I just don't know how to tell really.
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 17, 2011, 01:23:32 AM
anyone I've ever asked said I look good and they wouldn't give me a second look if they didn't know me.
but the thing is they do know me so I cant take it as I pass or not.
I'm not beating myself up over this but its something I'm really curious about. I still go out and still don't care what people think. but id really like to know if I pass. I just don't know how to tell really.
I went to the same phase as you did... I was constantly insecure about my passibility, and I would tell friends that I knew after living as a girl, and whom I can trust that I'm trans, and I would ask them to tell me honestly wether they had a clue about it... It took quite some of that to convince me
I haven't got to the stage where I started telling people I got to know after I started living fully as a girl about it yet. Perhaps I don't feel close enough to any of them yet to tell them (I've only been full-time for less than 11 months). I am scared of it, to be honest... I can still see the boy part when I look in the mirror. I still don't feel fully convinced that people who didn't know me before cannot see it at all. I don't have to worry about not passing when I go out, but wouldn't someone at least have a slight doubt when they see me? That's what I always wonder still.
Quote from: apple pie on November 17, 2011, 12:26:46 PM
I haven't got to the stage where I started telling people I got to know after I started living fully as a girl about it yet. Perhaps I don't feel close enough to any of them yet to tell them (I've only been full-time for less than 11 months). I am scared of it, to be honest... I can still see the boy part when I look in the mirror. I still don't feel fully convinced that people who didn't know me before cannot see it at all. I don't have to worry about not passing when I go out, but wouldn't someone at least have a slight doubt when they see me? That's what I always wonder still.
Sorry, im totally resurrecting this thread. you siad yourself you don't have to worry about not passing when you are out so i imagine you look pretty good and thats often enough, i dont think people are out looking for transgendered people!! If i took photos of the natal women in my local town i recon that the majority of them would get "clocked" in the do i pass thread. And for FTMs i think its even more of a slim chance of doubt as there are a huge amount of people that dont even know FTMs exist!
I think in most peoples minds theres a big area of not passing and a big area of passing and a very slim grey area inbetween purely because its not something people are really looking for.
I agree with El. I've been stunned by how much of the general public doesn't even have the concept of trans on their radar, much less know how to clock us. 8)
Quote from: El on November 28, 2011, 08:42:34 AM
And for FTMs i think its even more of a slim chance of doubt as there are a huge amount of people that dont even know FTMs exist!
I didn't know until I started researching my own transition.
Quote from: Felix on November 28, 2011, 10:43:05 AM
I agree with El. I've been stunned by how much of the general public doesn't even have the concept of trans on their radar, much less know how to clock us. 8)
I'm around straight men often...they definitely are aware of MtFs. I rememeber I saw them before as a boy and thought, "Hey look at that man! why the hell is he dressed like that" or "that girl isn't very easy on the eyes. There's something wrong with her face".
Quote from: Felix on November 28, 2011, 10:43:05 AM
I agree with El. I've been stunned by how much of the general public doesn't even have the concept of trans on their radar, much less know how to clock us. 8)
This is true to some extent. People either read you as male or female in my experience. I think very few people know about trans anything. Especially FTM's.
Quote from: Medusa on November 16, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
Small test
Trans or cis, why, pass? (age 31)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.2011.super.cz%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2F17582.jpg%3F20110930102036&hash=5448f7442f1615ad5dbab306ac069f705f398a73)
Cis, though is she seriously 31?
Quote from: mixie on November 16, 2011, 10:05:03 AM
Obviously there are some women on here that have masculine features (you don't seem to to me) but many ciswomen I've seen have masculine features including myself.
I'm sorry lol but you can't compare a few masculine features on a cis woman to the passing problems a trans woman has. They are totally different things. It's the difference between mostly feminine and mostly masculine features.
Quote from: pretty on November 28, 2011, 01:34:18 PM
I'm sorry lol but you can't compare a few masculine features on a cis woman to the passing problems a trans woman has. They are totally different things. It's the difference between mostly feminine and mostly masculine features.
There are many women who are more masculine than many guys.
True story:
Female teen (speking to my youngest daughter); You Dad looks like woman
My daugther: your Mom looks like an ugly man
Me: LMAO
I seen women with norrow hips, deep voices, broad shoulders, big hands, unibrows, and even bossing. FFS is not only performed in XY-females but also in XX-females
Quote from: Jen61 on November 28, 2011, 02:57:12 PM
There are many women who are more masculine than many guys.
There are but they're few in numbers. I guess it depends on where you live though because around here only once in a blue moon do i ever see a woman who looks more masculine then a man. :P
QuoteJust live your life and stop worrying. You'll pass more that way.
Best advice ever.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 28, 2011, 08:10:30 PM
There are but they're few in numbers. I guess it depends on where you live though because around here only once in a blue moon do i ever see a woman who looks more masculine then a man. :P
We got samoans, filipinos, middle eastern, indians, and a large Mexican populous here. Most of the people assume I am Mexican, so I get away with having a wider jaw...Most of the women are also short here.
Then again, in lily white Pleasenton...people think the same thing. So I don't know.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 28, 2011, 08:50:32 PM
We got samoans, filipinos, middle eastern, indians, and a large Mexican populous here. Most of the people assume I am Mexican, so I get away with having a wider jaw...Most of the women are also short here.
Then again, in lily white Pleasenton...people think the same thing. So I don't know.
Gawk, I have mistaken many Mex chicks for being trans sometimes.... because they have so masculine faces for the most part and they tend to wear heavy make up... I suppose to help flatter and feminize their faces
Quote from: MsDazzler on November 28, 2011, 10:08:48 PM
Gawk, I have mistaken many Mex chicks for being trans sometimes.... because they have so masculine faces for the most part and they tend to wear heavy make up... I suppose to help flatter and feminize their faces
I actually saw a Latin transgirl today. I had no idea she was trans until she talked. Very beautiful.. She had very short hair and a lot of very feminine energy. She was a cosmetic artist like me.
My first experience with people I knew transsexuals were with the filipina girls at Macys and other union square department stores.
I went in to a liquor store the other day to buy alcohol for friends.
I was in heavy makeup and a really small dress...that is quite flattering to my body actually.
when I showed the guy my ID he didnt react at all, kept smiling kept talking about how I barely made it. no reaction whatsoever.
either he knew from the start and didnt care so I didnt pass or he clearly didnt see the picture on my ID where I have a giant beard.
I dont get it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/379756_321407224552887_100000508364507_1368942_961617236_n.jpg)
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 29, 2011, 12:51:03 AM
I went in to a liquor store the other day to buy alcohol for friends.
I was in heavy makeup and a really small dress...that is quite flattering to my body actually.
when I showed the guy my ID he didnt react at all, kept smiling kept talking about how I barely made it. no reaction whatsoever.
either he knew from the start and didnt care so I didnt pass or he clearly didnt see the picture on my ID where I have a giant beard.
I dont get it.
Maybe he knew, maybe he was watching the game... or maybe, just maybe...
He didn't know/care that you were trans or assumed it was your brother's ID.
He wanted to tap that.
Quote from: JoeyD on November 29, 2011, 02:33:59 AM
He wanted to tap that.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fsmiley-sex019.gif&hash=955b5a7c19bd6bc2f51d407ce8ecf25713c2c698)
For sure.
Quote from: Ava C on November 29, 2011, 02:56:17 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fsmiley-sex019.gif&hash=955b5a7c19bd6bc2f51d407ce8ecf25713c2c698)
For sure.
Don't men normally take action when they want to tap something? At least my case they have.