I had my first appointment with a gender therapist yesterday. Suffice it to say, it went terribly. Didn't connect with her at all, and as a result could never really open up to her about my thoughts and feelings as of late. At the end of the session, she basically brushed me off, telling me to come back to her when I was more certain. In effect, I wasn't trans enough for her yet.
But she gave me homework nonetheless: "Be more feminine."
Problem is, I am still very much hiding in the closet at large. Even at home. So, how do I do that without giving myself away too soon and drawing attention to myself? Bit of a conundrum, methinks.
But still, besides the walk, beside the posture and the voice... how do I be more feminine?
I mean IMO, something is wrong when a therapist is telling you to be more feminine. Were those her exact words?
That aside, you don't connect with her. If she's not cutting it, then one of your options is to find a new one.
I also think that you should change therapists. Her job is to help you come to terms with your gender identity, not to require you to be sure already when you go see her.
Sounds like she wants you to adhere to an outdated idea of what a woman is in order for her to determine that you are trans. Definitely find someone else if you can.
I agree. It's her job to help you understand if you are experiencing dysphoria due to your gender. Even if you weren't dysphoric due to gender issues, a trained professional should be able to sort out WHY you are dysphoric and help you. Telling you to come back when you are more sure is a sign of incompetence. Find somebody else, but not just because she wont sign the letter, but because she isn't doing her job as a trained professional.
What worried me is that she has been at this for twenty years, and used to run a gender clinic. She said she was initially brought into the clinic to help family members of transpeople, and not the people themselves. I knew the second I stepped out of her office that I wouldn't return.
I have a call into another GT in the area. Hoping to hear back from her on Monday.
But still, she got me thinking... what can I do right now, if anything, to be more feminine (when I am out in public), while still presenting as your standard heterosexual male?
If she said that to me, I'd ask her if she'd say that to a bull lesbian.
what a moron
Uhm, if you like skate-like shoes, the area of gender overlap is quite wide. You could also slightly take care of your eyebrows. It can look more clean without being too "gay", I think, if you do it mildly.
There's also, maybe, slight make-up, such as a little bit of foundation and such.
Hmm, what else? You can probably take care of your body hair without too many looks. There -are- boys who aren't hairy, after all. But if you think people would notice too much, you can bleach it, so that it's less apparent, but when someone asks "what did you do with your legs?" you can say "uh, nothing, the sun maybe?" and they won't doubt you all that much, since the hairs are still there.
You can also grow your hair..?
But really, I'm not 100 % sure I get what you mean by "more feminine whilst still presenting as your standard heterosexual male". It sure sounds contradictory, since more feminine inevitably brings you farther from the standard heterosexual male...
Mannerisms! my last councilor noted that my voice was quite feminine but I had very feminine gestures and mannerisms. I wasn't even aware of my mannerisms being feminine. But don't go super-fake flamboyant gay. If you have to, go to a local shopping mall or park and just people watch. see how women move and gesture when they walk, talk, sit, etc.
If you are truly female inside, you just have to stop giving a crap what people think. You will have to do that anyways if you wish to transition. Once you learn that it's not about what people think, it's about how you feel about yourself and being whoever makes you happy; if you're feminine inside, you'll be feminine. If you're a girl, it'll shine at that point. When you're yourself and it's female, people will soon accept it. You'll seriously look back at yourself and kick yourself for not doing it sooner.
Do it slowly if you must. But just say something on your mind that you would've stopped yourself from saying in order to keep your man card or whatever. Keep doing it overtime. Eventually you'll be out there buying make up without giving a crap what everyone else thinks.
Release your inhibitions.
Feel the rain on your skin. Noone else can feel it for you, only you can let it in. Noone else can speak the words on your lips. Drench yourself with words unspoken, live your life with arms wide open. Today is when your book begins. The rest is still unwritten :)
Natasha Bedingfield - Unwritten (US Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7k0a5hYnSI&ob=av2n#)
Sorry... I just took my medicine a couple hours ago :D
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2012, 11:09:50 PM
What worried me is that she has been at this for twenty years, and used to run a gender clinic. She said she was initially brought into the clinic to help family members of transpeople, and not the people themselves. I knew the second I stepped out of her office that I wouldn't return.
I have a call into another GT in the area. Hoping to hear back from her on Monday.
But still, she got me thinking... what can I do right now, if anything, to be more feminine (when I am out in public), while still presenting as your standard heterosexual male?
I think it may well be a 'counselling ploy'. My therapist shrink psychiatrist did EXACTLY that, and not only to me! It may well be he actually used this, to test our RESOLVE.
He told a tg friend (she is by married now) that he "could only see a man in a dress"... he told me, by making a sort of photographic shutter with his hands, that my hair were wrong, i.e. my face looked not like female, not for him at any rate etc. etc.
In my situation I had no option but to hang in there and just keep on coming back to him.
In the end... he switched about 180 deg. (after about 9 month) and told me I was one of his BEST transitioners!
I think it may well be 'old school' gate-keeping that this person is practicing with you.
In my case I got the idea, if I had run off for the 'big check-out', all he'd comment be: I was "not strong enough" to survive the ordeal of transitioning.
And make NO mistake... is very much just that. Go ask ANY ONE, it's no cake walk.
BTW, go look about you and see HOW MANY folks actually can not go through with it!
Getting stuck along the road and being most unhappy, taking poppers to handle GID, with no better idea after YEARS - what be the next thing to do... other then try sitting on the fence, with no resolve and lost in la-la-land.
As I said... I'm starting to understand that some of this behaviour might be to 'help' rather then to harm.
Just my experience...
Well if you have to ask, maybe you are just not the uber feminine type?
Quote from: Mich on May 12, 2012, 01:10:46 AM
I think it may well be a 'counselling ploy'. My therapist shrink psychiatrist did EXACTLY that, and not only to me! It may well be the use this, is to test your RESOLVE.
He told this tg friend (she is by married now) that he "could only see a man in a dress"... he told me by making a sort of photographic shutter with his hands that my hair were wrong, i.e. my face looked not like female, not for him at any rate etc. etc.
In my situation I had no option but to hang in there and just keep on coming back to him.
In the end... he switched about 180 deg. (after about 9 month) and told me I was one of his BEST transitioners!
I think it may well be 'old school' gate-keeping that this person is practicing with you.
In my case I got the idea, if I'd run off for the 'big check-out', all he'd comment be I was "not strong enough" to survive the ordeal of transitioning.
And make NO mistake... is very much just that. Go ask ANY ONE, it's no cake walk.
BTW, now look about you and see HOW MANY folks actually can not go through with it!
Getting stuck along the road and being terribly unhappy, taking poppers to handle GID, with no better idea after YEARS what be the next thing to do... other then try sitting on the fence, with no resolve and totally lost in la-la-land.
As I said... I'm starting to understand that some of this behaviour might be to 'help' rather then to harm.
Just my experience...
How ironic.
You know what the hardest part of my transition was? The medical establishment. Trying to hold me back at every turn. And the shrinks were by far the worst of them.
These are OUR lives, not theirs.
Personally, I think the TG community needs to grow some spine and stop letting the medical establishment tell us that because they have a piece of paper they know our minds better than we do.
Stop being sheep, stop letting yourselves be herded about like cattle.
As for the original post. I encountered something similar some time back, I ignored her and never went back and went to another shrink.
You think mannerisms really matter in passing? You think the average 23 year old woman will be read as male because of mannerisms?
I am a person, I'm also female, I'm also independent and say what I believe in, dress how I want (modestly and relatively boyish, I don't like attention, cargo pants are my style, I like lots of pockets), and any mannerisms I have are just whatever my natural mannerisms are.
So why does it seem I get read as female? Probably because I physically look and sound female.
That's all it takes really. Your behavior, personality, these things aren't stuff that will cause you to be read any differently really. Why would they? They don't for ciswomen.
Get a new therapist. Any therapist who thinks they're helping you by making you act like a stereotype or manipulate you to see if you're tough enough, is one who shouldn't be getting paid.
Here's what I have been working on so far:
I have my ears pierced, and as it is, my hair is already long. Very long, and curly. If straightened it would hang all the way to the top of my pants. (It's pretty awesome.) I am thinking about getting it cut in a more feminine way than it is now (I basically just get it trimmed straight across). I've also recently begun shaving my legs. The feeling is incredible!
I might try the subtle makeup. (I love makeup!) I have tried wearing it out in the past, but only a handful of times, because I was always afraid it would be noticed. Buying is not a huge issue, though. I mean, I am nervous as hell while doing it, and am constantly afraid someone will say something, but I frequently buy makeup by myself. (Not that I need any more!)
A couple weeks ago I decided I was going to stop giving any ->-bleeped-<-s about anything. Of course, that's far easier said than done. Not giving a crap about what people think is something I have a really difficult time doing, especially after constantly keeping myself in check for so long. I have been actively trying to act more feminine since then, but it's all too easy to slip back into old patterns when my mind wanders.
I have been consciously attempting to feminize my walk/stance lately, even while out in public. Just paying attention to the sway of my hips—gosh, I love the feeling. I feel so much freer when I let my body move as it wants to, instead of forcing into a masculine box.
Mannerisms, on the other hand... I don't even really know where to begin on that front. I'm trying to figure out how to be graceful, though I'd like to think I am already. I did gymnastics for 9 years, so I do have this weird ingrained sense of control, of where all my limbs are at once. I feel like I can really use this to my advantage, if I couple it with not caring how people see me.
I guess it just really threw me when she said that. I was pretty tense throughout the entire session, so suppose I never felt comfortable enough to just let myself go and let the girl in me come out.
Gosh, I have so much to learn. First thing on the list: seriously stop giving a ->-bleeped-<- about people's opinions. Seriously.
Quote from: A on May 11, 2012, 11:30:02 PMBut really, I'm not 100 % sure I get what you mean by "more feminine whilst still presenting as your standard heterosexual male". It sure sounds contradictory, since more feminine inevitably brings you farther from the standard heterosexual male...
What I meant was, are there subtle ways I can act more feminine, ways that the typical person might not even notice if they aren't coupled with other mannerisms/attributes? As much as I am trying with certain aspects, I am also very much keeping myself reigned in right now, especially around certain family members and when I'm at work.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 12, 2012, 12:30:01 AMRelease your inhibitions.
Feel the rain on your skin. Noone else can feel it for you, only you can let it in. Noone else can speak the words on your lips. Drench yourself with words unspoken, live your life with arms wide open. Today is when your book begins. The rest is still unwritten :)
Love this! Of the hundreds of times I have heard this song on the radio, I never let the lyrics really sink in. Now, listening to it in a new light, it speaks to me.
Molly, ask yourself if you have ever had folk stare at you and exclaim: 'you're just like a girl/woman!'
If you have then you have natural femaleness and now just need to add some femininity with dress/makeup/hair.
If you haven't then be honest and ask yourself if you are really TS or just somewhere else on the gender scale and recognise that girls and women do have a lifetime of spotting femaleness and even if you went to a CD/TV dressing service and spent a fortune on being turned into a woman the end result may be a rough parody of a woman same as on telly last night where a cop glanced up at a draq queen and muttered. 'Quite a guy'.
There is a definite difference between femaleness and femininity.
On the other hand the therapist may have been a **** ******* and was trying to prevent you becoming one of those goddam transsexuals who invade ******* spaces.
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2012, 11:09:50 PM
What worried me is that she has been at this for twenty years, and used to run a gender clinic. She said she was initially brought into the clinic to help family members of transpeople, and not the people themselves. I knew the second I stepped out of her office that I wouldn't return.
That's very odd. She should know that the average pre everything MTF is a (hyper)masculine male and inborn feminity is very, very rare in MTF's.
I've been thinking about the OP's question for a while now, and I still don't have any answers.. Actually, apart from finding a therapist you do connect with, all I can suggest is to simply be yourself - not the you that you present to the world currently..
Quote from: Dahlia on May 12, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
That's very odd. She should know that the average pre everything MTF is a (hyper)masculine male and inborn feminity is very, very rare in MTF's.
Hmm, that's not my experience at all, either for myself, or many of the trans women I know..
Oh, I had misunderstood. Looks like you're quite intent on transitioning already. In that case, uhm... Well, uhm... If you're confident enough, try going out 100 % female sometime. I haven't done that yet, but it's supposed to give you a big confidence boost.
Also, working on your voice could be good. My voice is supposedly really feminine, and I never use any but it, but I still "pass" as a weird male for now (except security checks on the phone, but that's another story). There are men with feminine voices, you know. A co-worker of my mother's had that, as well as an androgynous name, and he ended up changing his name to a really male one to make sure he wasn't called madam on the phone, hehe. And no one questions his masculinity.
Also, think of the phenomenon called "metrosexuals", men who take care of their bodies much like women do. Apart from "hurr hairy truck driver alpha male" men, no one calls them any less male for epilating and using moisturisers and foundation and stuff.
You can also start facial hair removal. If you need to, you can use an excuse. "I get too many ingrowns; it's a real issue." "I'm really tired of having to shave every damned morning, and heck, I don't intend on growing a beard, so why not?" "My skin is just too sensitive; all razors just destroy it." There are "real" men who get their beard lasered, after all.
And you can buy a few women's androgynous-looking pieces of clothes, again with an excuse if you need it. For the clerk, you can be buying it for your twin sister, who pretty much has the same sizes as you, so you're trying them on to make sure it fits. Or you could complain about how much you have a girl's butt and always have to buy damned girl's jeans because nothing fits you, even if it's not really true. Or you can say that your feet are too short for men's socks. Or you could be doing a short film for an important school project, and need a realistic cross-gender outfit, and complain about how they picked you to be the pretty girl 'cause of your long hair. Excuses are useful when you lack confidence.
But in the end, you will have to come out. I personally don't believe so much in not caring about what others think. Of course, I'm all for being yourself and not conforming too much, but unless you want to create difficulties for yourself, you sort of have to "help them accept you" a little. So going gradually and not "BANG; today, I'm myself! Screw you all and your opinions!" which is likely to cause shock for everyone including you, and might actually appear as mental instability, is probably a better choice.
For example, slowly feminise your appearance and behaviours whilst letting others accept that you're a weird, effeminate person. If, after a while and they seem to have accepted you (and most should, really), if you come out to them, it'll feel like less of a "You lied to us!" or "What the heck? ->-bleeped-<-!" and more of a "Oh, THAT's what was up! So he, uhm, she, can be herself now!" It's not magical, but I think it should really attenuate the shock of coming out for both you and your peers.
And as soon as you're sure that you're transsexual and are going to transition, if you aren't already, you will need to come out to your family. They deserve to know, right? They're close to you, after all. And if you wait too much, they might feel betrayed. Even if they're religious fanatics with torches, you don't depend on them for living, right? You have a job, after all.
But in a more normal case, if you sort of use the same method with them, and do the coming out with tact and understanding, and explain everything to them to the best of your ability, and don't confront them, but rather accompany them into understanding you, it should go fine. They might not understand fully at first, but they should accept, at the very least, and try to understand their best. I think they might actually see it as a little relieving to finally understand "what's wrong with you". Because don't underestimate family. They probably noticed something. My mother and sister, at least, already "knew".
And all that will be much easier to do if you have a therapist who accompanies you instead of challenging you. Plus, if you're still not 100 % sure, they're (theoretically; not sure what happened with the first one) good at helping you figure everything out. I hope your new therapist is nice.
Alainaluvsu put it so poetically in her video !!!
You have to release your inner female !!!! In most of us, the inner female, has been suppressed and imprisoned, or is dormant and undiscovered. Once release and allowed to project, the feminine mannerisms, and even voice inflexion and resonance, would come naturally (with a little bit of practice, but your attitude (mental state=I am a female) is the key.
Quote from: Dahlia on May 12, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
That's very odd. She should know that the average pre everything MTF is a (hyper)masculine male and inborn feminity is very, very rare in MTF's.
I don't think it's that rare and I was always very feminine like many of my ts friends.
Quote from: Mich on May 12, 2012, 01:10:46 AM
I think it may well be a 'counselling ploy'. My therapist shrink psychiatrist did EXACTLY that, and not only to me! It may well be he actually used this, to test our RESOLVE.
He told a tg friend (she is by married now) that he "could only see a man in a dress"... he told me, by making a sort of photographic shutter with his hands, that my hair were wrong, i.e. my face looked not like female, not for him at any rate etc. etc.
In my situation I had no option but to hang in there and just keep on coming back to him.
In the end... he switched about 180 deg. (after about 9 month) and told me I was one of his BEST transitioners!
I think it may well be 'old school' gate-keeping that this person is practicing with you.
In my case I got the idea, if I had run off for the 'big check-out', all he'd comment be: I was "not strong enough" to survive the ordeal of transitioning.
And make NO mistake... is very much just that. Go ask ANY ONE, it's no cake walk.
BTW, go look about you and see HOW MANY folks actually can not go through with it!
Getting stuck along the road and being most unhappy, taking poppers to handle GID, with no better idea after YEARS - what be the next thing to do... other then try sitting on the fence, with no resolve and lost in la-la-land.
As I said... I'm starting to understand that some of this behaviour might be to 'help' rather then to harm.
Just my experience...
I went though 6 councilor's because they were clueless about transsexuality. And I know, it's not
that rare!
My last one tried really hard to learn from me. But when I finally got onto HRT I was damned if I was going to go though another unqualified councilor to kickstart my life. And in the end, I didn't. I went though a doctor and skipped the councilor altogether.
I also figured out that my biggest enemy to transition was myself and almost everyone important to me. Myself because I worried too much about how everyone thought of me. And everyone else because I gave them power over me.
Quote from: Keaira on May 12, 2012, 11:36:01 AM
I went though 6 councilor's because they were clueless about transsexuality. And I know, it's not that rare!
My last one tried really hard to learn from me. But when I finally got onto HRT I was damned if I was going to go though another unqualified councilor to kickstart my life. And in the end, I didn't. I went though a doctor and skipped the councilor altogether.
I also figured out that my biggest enemy to transition was myself and almost everyone important to me. Myself because I worried too much about how everyone thought of me. And everyone else because I gave them power over me.
I mentioned my shrink as he is the ONLY one qualified in SA to clear one for local, cost-free SRS. Which is bad news in more then one way. So he IS as qualified as they come - in SA.
It is a case, as ever so often, that we are FORCED to figure out what such a "therapist" wants to hear AND see.
And as you mentioned it can become VERY stressful, in fact downright scary. I was scared every time I had to see him.
Now having to go through 6 as in your case... sounds like needing first therapy in order to get therapy!
I'd figured out during some 9 month what he wanted - and so he got it.
HRT I did on the sly, not DIY but by prescription, yet NEVER mentioned it. He was anti HRT, only after SRS was his take... I freaked (cried), so I got another fat rebuke.
In any case I learned, "If you can't help yourself - you can't be helped" as the saying goes.
Alaina great video!
This past week I have been really focusing on my movements, and in doing so had an epiphany... I have no idea how to walk like a guy. I'm not sure if I ever really "knew." I've been walking one foot in front of the other for so long now, I can't even remember when I first began doing so. And I've never walked with my elbows out, but rather tucked in close to my sides. The only adjustment I've really made is to loosen up, and stand straighter. I realized that that is why my hips are now swaying.
What I am finding impossible, though, is the arm swing. I've noticed that if I hold one of my arms straight, the other swings at the elbow a lot more. But it's not something I can force. It just sort of happens. The second I start thinking about it, it becomes stiff and unnatural. And never, for some reason, do both arms swing at the elbow.
Allowing myself to simply loosen up physically, and the effects it's had on my movements... somehow it's given me a boost in confidence. It's like, when I stiffen my body, it's as though I also tense up emotionally. A wall has been raised, and I shuffle around like a marionette on strings. A puppet for masculinity. But when I divest myself of those strings, when I cut those cords and let myself move freely, suddenly the world seems just a little bit brighter.
The one thing I still can't stop myself from doing is changing my walk at work. If I know a customer is behind me, I stiffen my walk. This was especially noticeable a couple days ago when I was helping/flirting a cute girl whose number I wanted to get. As I walked towards the back of the store to ask my boss a question, I forced my hips to stop swaying, in the event she was watching me go. It wasn't that I wanted to appear more masculine, but because I didn't what to appear too overtly feminine in the eyes of an ostensibly heterosexual girl. Thinking back on it, a little part of me is disappointed in myself for making the adjustment. Not that it matters much... I never did get her number (because I didn't even ask).
Oh, and I also styled my eyebrows a bit. Not a ton, but enough so that my face does look more feminine if I am also wearing makeup. (The difference is definitely more less noticeable without.) I intend to make them more feminine over the next several months, but do so subtly, so that only collectively, if compared to a past photo, will one notice a real difference.
Ah, and one last thing... I got an appointment with another GT. She seemed heaps nicer than the other woman, just from what I could sense from our brief introductory phone call. It's for next Wednesday, and I'm already excited.
During at least the early part of transition (2 years on...) we mostly tend to be VERY self-conscious, a lot of the time.
If going on HRT, surprise surprise, we go through all those awkward teenage notions too, as is often mentioned being the second puberty that happens during this time. Thankfully it is not as long as our first one! :)
Eventually we do become less and less self-conscious (just as any teen growing up) then what follows be: WHAT IS - IS.
Not every female walks like a model, in deed if she would, it might be considered rather odd - most of the time. Sexy as it might appear and look at the right time and situation.
Anything that does not come out of our more NATURAL behaviour, walk, speech, movements, etc. is picked up VERY quickly as "aufgesetzt" i.e. put-on/phoney and it will make people react in some way or another - mostly negative.
If we feel "right" - we usually act "right", and "right" would be VERY dependant on any given circumstance.
If one goes for e.g. a normal brisk walk, there be an odd aspect to it, mincing along like on a cat-walk, right? :)
Just a thought,
Axélle
I would ask what she meant, and keep at her until you were satisfied with her explanation. If you are not, tell her so and ask her how she defines 'man', woman', masculine' and 'feminine'. That should tell you whether she is up to date.
Karen.
//. Why do you need to learn to be more feminine? It sounds like you were trying to fool your therapist and for that she was right in being concerned.
Swinging both arms "loosely" feels sort of like overdoing it/shouting for attention, at least in the beginning. It's normal, really, especially if, like me, you're used to having one arm locked by a bag or binder or stuff. And it's also perfectly normal to tend to hold distinctly feminine behaviours when still presenting as male. It would give off a bad image, mostly. That, or it might be seen as "very gay", which might be a problem, since you like women. But anyway, once you start presenting yourself as female, it should all be gone very quickly.
If I can give you this piece of advice, I think you should think very hard before flirting with women, considering where you stand now. I understand that for many, the desire to find a life partner is burning, but if you do look for a partner right now, you have a high chance of suffering... Not many heterosexual, or even bisexual, women, would readily accept their lover to transition. Undying love and memories with the person can very well save a long term relationship or marriage, but honestly, I don't think it's likely that a girlfriend of just a few months would take it very well.
I'd suggest waiting, but if that causes you too much suffering, then perhaps look for homosexual women who would understand you well. It's going to be a pain to have to come out before even getting in a relationship, but since you're really just beginning, I think that's your best chance. Plus, if you don't have a real relationship with her yet, if she dumps you because of your current body, it won't hurt as much, right?
A, it's difficult, because I've never had sex before as a man. And for me at least, I feel like experiencing that is necessary. I have to have had it in order to make a fully informed decision about transitioning, about who I am as a person. Even though I expect myself to go "nope, can't do this" when I have it, it's still something I know I have to do before I commence HRT.
It's a really difficult tightrope to walk, though. The thought of having to lie to someone who potentially cares about me just stresses me out. I know that it's completely unfair to them. But at the same time, I know I have to at least attempt to be a "boyfriend," even if I'd rather be her girlfriend. Easier said than done, though, since I am terribly shy, and have never been on a serious date before.
In the end, it's all your choice, but I would personally not recommend it. I just know for sure deep inside that it would hurt too much and represent a long-lasting traumatising memory.
If you're sure you won't feel this way, then it's fine. I guess it can act as you say, as a confirmation.
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2012, 09:42:38 PM
I had my first appointment with a gender therapist yesterday. Suffice it to say, it went terribly. Didn't connect with her at all, and as a result could never really open up to her about my thoughts and feelings as of late. At the end of the session, she basically brushed me off, telling me to come back to her when I was more certain. In effect, I wasn't trans enough for her yet.
But she gave me homework nonetheless: "Be more feminine."
Problem is, I am still very much hiding in the closet at large. Even at home. So, how do I do that without giving myself away too soon and drawing attention to myself? Bit of a conundrum, methinks.
But still, besides the walk, beside the posture and the voice... how do I be more feminine?
You could buy a bra and hide it somewhere. Find a place to put it on/stuff it to make your breasts larger.. right before your appointment. Breasts are a big deal. Also make sure you are clean-shaven before your appointment, grow your hair..
Quote from: Noey Nooneson on May 18, 2012, 10:05:12 PM
You could buy a bra and hide it somewhere. Find a place to put it on/stuff it to make your breasts larger.. right before your appointment. Breasts are a big deal. Also make sure you are clean-shaven before your appointment, grow your hair..
My last therapist noticed natural feminine tendencies about me. I eventually took the step of seeing him dressed as a woman. Which, in itself was a monumental step forward because I was walking though Ball State University in a skirt, blouse and make-up with all the students around. But being feminine seems to come naturally. When you 'learn' to be more feminine it just doesn't seen the same. I had no clue what was feminine about me that everyone picked up on. I still don't!
If there is anything feminine about you, you've probably learned to hold some action or mannerism back. So you need to figure out if and what that is.
But even in my eyes, I'm not very feminine. There are some girls here who would make me look like a straight guy. So, what you see or think is probably different to what others see.
I don't think Noey Nooneson's idea is the best... If you do something special to "prove" things to your therapist, such as going dressed as a woman when it's not something that you've really been doing, it might tell the therapist that you have something to prove, that you're not ready yet, that you're being extravagant or impulsive, and according to the SOC, those are factors for prudence and wait for HRT, right?
I don't know how widespread that line of thought is, but my psychiatrist told me about a case where a person went all dressed especially for an appointment thinking it would help, but ended up being very disappointed learning that it would have no effect whatsoever on his opinion and the process.
If you are seeing a therapist about gender issues and you aren't willing to make any effort at all to present yourself to that therapist as your target sex then why on earth (if you are not willing to make any effort) should that therapist give you the go-ahead on anything?
I'm asking this of "A".
Uhm, that's not exactly what I meant. What I meant was not to do anything out of place FOR the therapist. For example, someone who would buy their first cross-gender outfit for the therapist and wear it for the first time for the therapist, all that whilst not being full-time.
Doing something out of one's habits specifically for a therapist tends to appear as though the person is trying to convince the therapist rather than get a honest judgement, and that might not please the professional in question. After all, the therapist wants to see how the patient is, not how the patient wants to be, right? And I don't think they're as narrow-minded as to let the person's appearance during the appointment guide them so much.
If I were a therapist, anyway, I would sure question and investigate the reasons for my patient "dressing up" especially for our appointments, and might feel as though that person is not being 100 % honest with me at first.
I just think that if Molly's going to make efforts to make herself more feminine, it's perfectly fine and probably very healthy, but not if she only "disguises" for the therapist. A psychologist once told me this: "You come see me for yourself. Do what feels best for you, not me. Once you start to do anything for my sake, or for your mother's sake, you start being terribly wrong and I don't think what we do together can be useful, from that point on." And I agree with her. She wasn't into gender therapy and that such issues were far from being the subject at hand, but I think it applies just as well to Molly's situation.
But I'm only speaking from my own opinion and experience. Maybe I'm wrong.
I don't intend to "dress up" just to see a therapist, because I'm not even comfortable going out in public en femme yet. That, and I don't want to seem like I have something to prove (even if I technically do). Really, my efforts to become more feminine or so that I can align my mental state with how I should be acting (even if I only make subtle changes for now). The point of this thread was that this first therapist told me to be more feminine... and it struck me that I had no idea where to begin. And honestly, that scared the hell out of me. It put the fear of "not female enough; never will be" in me, and caused a sharp jab of immediate doubt.
It made me wonder, and not in a good way.
While I think deep down I've always felt female, I was never quite able to grasp that fact. As much as I knew I was different, I always assumed I was male. So I outwardly attempted to act masculine, to be "male," and in turn consciously suppressed any feminine sensibilities that did not align with my avatar of purported maleness. And now at last I can see the Berlin Wall of bull->-bleeped-<- I've erected. There is a dam holding me back, segregating myself from the truest form of me. But I have been oppressed for so long, I have built that wall up so high, that I no longer know how to tear it down. I cannot figure which brick to kick out first.
And that's why I came to you guys, in a fit of desperation, to discover my way back through. I've got a borehole to drill, a well to tap—in hopes that a little me, the real me, will began to leak out once I do. And as the natural process of erosion occurs, so that trickle will become a flood, punching and bleeding and streaming through that dam, laying it to waste until it's mortared stones are no more.
I can feel my femininity there. I can sense it as there, as inherent as my ability to breath. But I cannot see it yet. I cannot for the life of me see it. And if I cannot yet see it, then how can anyone else? So this... this was/is me in search of an auger and a press.
Because I've got a goddamn wall to tear down.
As you can see, I've got a bit of a flair for the dramatic. And for hyperbole. And for purple prosaic metaphors.
I blame the writer in me.
Quote from: A on May 19, 2012, 02:40:59 PM
Doing something out of one's habits specifically for a therapist tends to appear as though the person is trying to convince the therapist rather than get a honest judgement, and that might not please the professional in question. After all, the therapist wants to see how the patient is, not how the patient wants to be, right? And I don't think they're as narrow-minded as to let the person's appearance during the appointment guide them so much.
If someone wanted a hormone or a surgery letter... The way to get that letter is to present as one's target sex during their therapy sessions. I am not making this a moral issue, rather some people, especially people who want their hormone go-ahead or whatever... They think, "I will be able to pass better after I am on HRT and I don't want to try to pass without HRT. But showing up to the therapist (at every session) dressed, etc. as one's target sex will cause the therapist to be more likely to give the "go-ahead" or paperwork and more likely sooner than later.
Just saying. Someone may be able to use this to his or her advantage.
Aww. I was there. That wall comes down as a process, and that process really does start when you truly stop caring what other people think. Be yourself. However, the catch 22 here is that estrogen does shift your emotional state in a way that makes you seem more feminine... well it's either that or the lack of testosterone, not sure which. Obviously you can't do that without HRT.
My therapist gave me an assignment when I first started. I had to write an essay on why I feel the need to transition. It caused me to do a lot of soul searching, and honestly I think it was the single best thing to convince him that it was what was going to make me happy. I'd do that, and bring it to your next counselor.
Oh, and I never had to present as female to start HRT. In fact, the first time I presented as female to my counselor was over a year after he wrote my letter.
Quote from: Molly on May 17, 2012, 11:31:02 PM
when I was helping/flirting a cute girl whose number I wanted to get...... in the eyes of an ostensibly heterosexual girl. Thinking back on it, a little part of me is disappointed in myself for making the adjustment. Not that it matters much... I never did get her number (because I didn't even ask).
Well...was she in for a hell of a surprise if you got her number and had started dating her....
When I was younger many years before I started transitioning I kept being told 'Be like a man why do you look and act so feminine', my reply was get lost!
A few things...
You don't have to go to someone designated as a GT for therapy. It's been my personal experience that therapists that were so tightly focused on a thing tended to be far more inflexible and already had an established set of expectations in play before I walked in the door.
Perhaps it is an age thing, meaning that once you reach a certain point in your life you honestly find it easier not to give those f--- about what others think or how they react to you, but if you work on that I think it'll serve you well regardless of the choices you make moving forward.
Don't let anyone else's expectations drive your experiences or expressions of self into some predetermined cattle chute. The flip side of that is that you're then presented with a very real opportunity to be straightforward in your introspection and suspend your drama and hyperbole in favor of realism and honesty. It has been my experience that doing anything else is just wheel spinning and can lead to some very real and lasting frustrations.
Don't let other people's horror stories sway your decision making processes. Bear in mind that the most vocal segment of any online population is usually the segment that has something negative to complain about. Folks that are happy and content with how things have gone/are going for them usually reserve the level of cynicism common here for tax season and election years. ;p
I'm a firm believer that how you approach and communicate your choices to others directly influence how your choices are perceived and reacted to. Uncertainty is reacted to with uncertainty, doubt with doubt, drama with eye-rolling, and so on. Again, just my experience, but I think that you finding someone who'll allow you the time to be genuinely uncertain and work through your stuff without drawing some instant conclusion would be the way to go, or at least something to shoot for.
I didn't address your question because it was a question prompted by the ignorant statement of someone with their head up their ass, and giving it any weight or consideration seems a waste of time and effort. No-one can tell you how you can be more feminine past the most basic of generalizations.
It's something you'll determine for yourself as you move forward, based on expectations you set for yourself, not those imposed upon you, or even suggested to you, by others.
I wish you the very best figuring it all out. :)
-Miki
Quote from: Miki on July 13, 2012, 10:25:20 PM
A few things...
You don't have to go to someone designated as a GT for therapy. It's been my personal experience that therapists that were so tightly focused on a thing tended to be far more inflexible and already had an established set of expectations in play before I walked in the door.
Perhaps it is an age thing, meaning that once you reach a certain point in your life you honestly find it easier not to give those f---- about what others think or how they react to you, but if you work on that I think it'll serve you well regardless of the choices you make moving forward.
Don't let anyone else's expectations drive your experiences or expressions of self into some predetermined cattle chute. The flip side of that is that you're then presented with a very real opportunity to be straightforward in your introspection and suspend your drama and hyperbole in favor of realism and honesty. It has been my experience that doing anything else is just wheel spinning and can lead to some very real and lasting frustrations.
Don't let other people's horror stories sway your decision making processes. Bear in mind that the most vocal segment of any online population is usually the segment that has something negative to complain about. Folks that are happy and content with how things have gone/are going for them usually reserve the level of cynicism common here for tax season and election years. ;p
I'm a firm believer that how you approach and communicate your choices to others directly influence how your choices are perceived and reacted to. Uncertainty is reacted to with uncertainty, doubt with doubt, drama with eye-rolling, and so on. Again, just my experience, but I think that you finding someone who'll allow you the time to be genuinely uncertain and work through your stuff without drawing some instant conclusion would be the way to go, or at least something to shoot for.
I didn't address your question because it was a question prompted by the ignorant statement of someone with their head up their ass, and giving it any weight or consideration seems a waste of time and effort. No-one can tell you how you can be more feminine past the most basic of generalizations.
It's something you'll determine for yourself as you move forward, based on expectations you set for yourself, not those imposed upon you, or even suggested to you, by others.
I wish you the very best figuring it all out. :)
-Miki
Oustanding post Miki +1
Quote from: Dahlia on May 12, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
That's very odd. She should know that the average pre everything MTF is a (hyper)masculine male and inborn feminity is very, very rare in MTF's.
Are you sure? The average MTF is feminine from my experience. Only a few are 'masculine males' to start with.
Quote from: Katie M. on July 14, 2012, 09:09:18 AM
Are you sure? The average MTF is feminine from my experience. Only a few are 'masculine males' to start with.
Personal observation (from laypersons) is the weakest form of evidence.
Studies have shown that many MTFs
overcompensate by attempting to be hyper-masculine. This is from data collected over many years. Keep in mind that in the recent past, it was not only difficult but nearly impossible to transition. Today, anyone who has the ability to log onto the internet can find all the information she needs to transition. This was not the case even twenty years ago. So this phenomenon of MTFs hiding their femininity by becoming overtly masculine may be becoming a thing of the past.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 14, 2012, 12:33:19 PM
Studies have shown that many MTFs overcompensate by attempting to be hyper-masculine. This is from data collected over many years. Keep in mind that in the recent past, it was not only difficult but nearly impossible to transition.
Hmmmmmmmm....that's not really necessary anymore since the 1970's...women's lib, women's emancipation feminism, gay emancipation had their influence on men in general.
No need to be hypermasculine to 'compensate' anymore....but I think MTF are very often hyper-masculine
by nature. 'Man enough to be a woman' so to speak.
Quote from: Dahlia on July 14, 2012, 01:20:05 PM
Hmmmmmmmm....that's not really necessary anymore since the 1970's...women's lib, women's emancipation feminism, gay emancipation had their influence on men in general.
No need to be hypermasculine to 'compensate' anymore....but I think MTF are very often hyper-masculine by nature.
'Man enough to be a woman' so to speak.
Yep honestly maybe it's different environments but I never got it. It's actually weird for people to suspect someone of being trans before they come out... really it's hard enough to convince someone that you should transition even when they know you as a hyper-
feminine male...
And it's not like you're forced to have a big group of macho guy friends.
Quote from: pretty on July 14, 2012, 02:23:20 PM
really it's hard enough to convince someone that you should transition even when they know you as a hyper-feminine male...
Very, very true! I was hyperfeminine and was 'mistaken' for a girl/woman frequently and even so I also sometimes had trouble convincing people my necessity to transition.
Quote from: Dahlia on July 14, 2012, 04:27:54 PM
Very, very true! I was hyperfeminine and was 'mistaken' for a girl/woman frequently and even so I also sometimes had trouble convincing people my necessity to transition.
You should never try to convince anyone you need to transition except by actually doing it. That is the most convincing argument you could ever make. ^_^
The reality is we are the only ones who need to be convinced and we don't need anyone's permission. That is why I had SRS a year before I went full-time, I just didn't need the resistance. And then I could say, well I already had the surgery O_O .
* Bam! *
Quote from: Noey Noonesson on July 21, 2012, 07:46:33 AM
You should never try to convince anyone you need to transition except by actually doing it. That is the most convincing argument you could ever make. ^_^
The reality is we are the only ones who need to be convinced and we don't need anyone's permission.
I totally agree with this. Once I decided to transition I was bursting at the seams and I was totally unstoppable. By the time I had my first appointment at the GIC I had been on hrt for 6 months, had my name legally changed, come out at work and been full time for 3 months already. Being the micro-managers they are they did not like my DIY at all, but there was no point in trying to stop me or slow me down by then so they grunted in dismay and sent me to their endo. Apart from some blood work and prescriptions my transition was all me. No hand holding or guidance from doctors or therapists. I'm not saying my path is recommended or best for everyone, but for me being a self-made woman was absolutely the correct thing to do. If one truly wishes to transition then no one can stop you.
Quote
That is why I had SRS a year before I went full-time, I just didn't need the resistance. And then I could say, well I already had the surgery O_O .
* Bam! *
That is highly irregular. I like it 8)
I've not read every reply on this thread so this may have been said already, stop worrying about what others think, relax & just be yourself.
After coming out I felt more relaxed to be myself, I stopped keeping my hands in my pockets & they are now expressive as my face when I speak, my walk is becoming more fluid & whilst i've always been an emotional person I no longer hide this, i'm sure that being more open about my emotions is much better for me than bottling them up..
I know plenty of women who are "tomboys" for want of a better expression, they never wear feminine clothes & they laugh & joke with men on their level but I never doubt their feminity, surely no-one can have the right to say you have to tick X amount of boxes to be feminine.
Quote from: Laura91 on July 21, 2012, 11:58:17 AM
I have never, ever, ever heard a genetic woman say "oh, I feel so feminine!! I love being a girl!"
Why?
Because it sounds really stupid.
Well, I have heard several cisgirls/women say that...during (the late stages of) pregnancy for instance.
And on other occasions as well.
It doesn't sound stupid to me at all.
Why on earth would a cisgirl/woman appreciating her femininety and voicing that be called 'really stupid'?!?
That sounds like you strongly dislike women who appreciate their feminity.
On the other hand...I've heard cis women and men say about (very) masculine MTF....oh? ehm? really? woman? but I see/hear/sense a guy!
Doesn't sound stupid too.
That just sounds honest and
not in a politically incorrect way.
Just honest, human perception.
As in: 'she's a TS? I can't imagine she used to be a man....she's so feminine (regarding looks, bodylanguage, voice etc)
I've heard ciswomen and men say that about MTF too, see?
Oh, btw; I've heard ( unsuspecting, until her man came out of the closet ) wives/girlfriends of men who turn out to be TS say....'I feel less woman because of'....or even 'I feel a lesser woman because of....'
That doesn't sound stupid to me too.
Btw: a MTF calling a ciswomen's femininity 'old fashioned' or simply denying it, is almost like saying: 'hey, it's 'normal' and ok for me to be (very) masculine'
<say that you must present an overly "feminine" image to compensate for the fact that they were born trans. >
I'm not overly "feminine'...there wasn't and isn't a trace of masculinity in me....so you won't hear me bragging about how I love shooting big guns, gunplay, baseball, the army, racing cars etc.
Nothing wrong with this song....love it! ;-)
LOVE UNLIMITED - I'M SO GLAD THAT I'M A WOMAN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDvtkKZZ6OI#)
Quote from: Laura91 on July 22, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
Well, since we are bringing music into the discussion how about some Cretin?
Cretin-Daddy's Little Girl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSOQQVOSq28#)
and some 13:
13 - Black Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQKUGgGS1OI#)
Cretins love noise and love to make noise, that's a well known fact :-)
Sometimes this topic leaves me a little torn - one side of me feels that being female simply comes naturally by letting one's old habits go, which was my experience, although I know others who 'teach themselves' to become female. Initially I dismissed such an approach as simply following a restrictive caricature of femininity, and I still believe the over-emphasis of such an approach can end up being restrictive, although I also see it now as teaching oneself the things that would have been learnt if born physically female, which seems fair enough, particularly for somebody transitioning later in life.
However, I never assumed a particularly masculine persona, and many people comment on my femininity (not only people who are 'surprised I am trans', but also those that are commenting and only know me as apparently non-trans), although I put no effort into acting feminine, and simply do what comes naturally. It wasn't so much being feminine that was the challenge for me, but it was deconstructing the feminine male persona I had built and reconciling my confused gender identity. In other words, finding femininity was the easy part, finding femaleness and a centered female identity was the true challenge - made the challenges of navigating medical institutions, surgeries and treatments, outside discrimination and potential rejection look like a cakewalk in comparison.
I'm really sorry the therapist treated you like that. My first meeting with a psychiatrist, not a gender one, but my local psychologist told me to go to him and that he's SUPER good. Anyway, I went to him and he told me I'm a homosexual who wants to play the role of a female in a relationship with a hetero male. I was 15 years old and it felt like the end of the world. Things got better, though.
There's really no secret to being more feminine. Act like yourself! Though, I did notice that women tend to be a bit more expressive than men. Grow your hair out, keep your face clean shaven, dress a bit androgynous, etc. You know that you feel you are/should be a woman. Own that side and let it out :)
Quote from: Laura91 on July 22, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
Well, since we are bringing music into the discussion ...
Anything goes by cole porter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aeQ3DmKU7A#)
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on May 11, 2012, 09:52:07 PM
I mean IMO, something is wrong when a therapist is telling you to be more feminine.
I've said it before, sometimes looking for the right doctor is a lot like dating, in that you kiss a few frogs before you find the one that clicks with you. In my experience, some of the best doctors were the ones that let me transition in the ways that felt appropriate to me. Everyone's needs are different, and a one size fits all approach isn't always right. Not to mention that there isn't just one way to be "feminine." As a woman, I find the whole idea that you have to be super femmed out in order to be a proper woman a little offensive. If you want to be, that's fine, but I hate the line that it's the only way to be feminine.
Worrying about how feminine you are is overrated.
Walk the line where you feel your line is. I love to shoot guns, and I love to shop. I love to go gun shopping while wearing some stylin s*** ... I'll aww over kitten pictures one minute and laugh at stupid women faceplanting into the beach while playing volleyball the next. When it's all said and done, if you're a girl (well... passing is a factor in this too), you will be seen as a girl no matter what you do.
I am not sure exactly what I am doing, but a BFF did say this afternoon that I have a lot of feminine qualities in the way I behave in general. Which is very encouraging.