Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm writing this to offer support for those people who do not fit into neat categories, or those who do not prefer to wear makeup, or those who prefer not to have their marriage annulled by a legal gender change, or those who for safety reasons are unable to live full time as an unpassable woman. In short, you don't have to, and you can still get the blessed surgical relief the rest of us have (hopefully) enjoyed.

Sorry, don't mean to be categorical, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. As someone who knew what gender I was (NoT the one into which I was born), I resented any directives that placed my gender future in the terms of whether I changed my name or wore a skirt or told people what my gender was. Although I identify as a female, I am more androgynous in appearance. I never liked feminine clothes, although all of my clothes are bought from the female racks. I never liked makeup, but then again, neither does my cisfemale wife, who has supported me through my transition in more ways than I could say. Plus I live in eastern Europe, where very simply put if you cannot pass 100% of the time, you will eventually be physically put to grave danger. I am okay regarding passing, but not 100%. That is not acceptable for me or for my wife. Who, incidentally, would be deported if I changed my passport to F because same-sex marriage is illegal in my homophobic country, and she is an immigrant.

In short, for anyone who knows what they want / need but feel the RLE requirement will significantly ruin / damage their lives, they can be excused by an empathetic psychologist / surgeon. My US psychologist and my being 12 days post-op by Dr Suporn of Thailand can attest to that.

RLE, while trying to minimize the risk of regret for us, fails to understand that for most of us, we've had 20, 30, 40, 50+ years to digest, absorb and understand who we are. They are flexible enough to allow that you might also at this point know how you wish to present yourself to the world. Thank god.

And that's exactly why RLE it is not requested anymore in Spain, as I was told by the president of the local trans association. Not all of us have a decent face pre-HRT and FFS...

yeah. it really is pooh. my fella is a general surgeon/trauma surgeon and got me everything from head to toe without the 1 year rule thing. he says they are more like guide lines anyways and theirss always a way around them. but i dont like those rules for one year either.

There are a few sides most forget , you can have a hate to your male/female body as it is, but who say the other lifestyle fit you ? so a tryout as a rle is not so crazy. What is crazy is the must and time set to it,would be better if a therapist be the judge of that, one more reason to find a good one :)
And we do need to learn a FEW new rules to act/behave like a mtf sit open legs or a ftm closed knees.
My 2 ct`s

Quote from: BlonT on August 17, 2012, 11:26:12 AM
And we do need to learn a FEW new rules to act/behave like a mtf sit open legs or a ftm closed knees.

I already do that, although mostly as being respectful to other persons in public spaces with limited space...

RLE cannot be done by everybody. Maybe If you are young and have a good starting face it could be, but not all of us are even 1% passable, and it will only cause more trauma. And that's why it is not mandatory anymore, at least for my case. On the 28th of July a new anti discrimination law was approved, and one of their points was to ban the mandatory RLE. The previous requisites for starting HRT forced you to fit into an stereotype of woman, instead of allowing you to find your place and only transition until where you need it. Now it is only necessary to have at least three months of therapy with an specialist.


Not all of us can identify as women upon starting. I'm afraid about changing how I recognize myself, but I will try to accept it.

Last thoughts: For me, all of these years have already been some sort of RLE for a male life, and I never felt satisfied on it.

Quote from: BlonT on August 17, 2012, 11:26:12 AM
There are a few sides most forget , you can have a hate to your male/female body as it is, but who say the other lifestyle fit you ? so a tryout as a rle is not so crazy. What is crazy is the must and time set to it,would be better if a therapist be the judge of that, one more reason to find a good one :)
And we do need to learn a FEW new rules to act/behave like a mtf sit open legs or a ftm closed knees.
My 2 ct`s

i dont believe in those social rules :P

I think you have an excellent point about acting like a cis female!!!

How do CIS females act???? Your are cpletelu correct about the stereotyping. I am a female (still, even if I don't like it). I don't act it, at all!!! "Gendered" behavior runs the  the entire spectrum from very 'femimine' females to very 'butch-type females' - and guess what - they are all women and each is equally valid.

The strict binary rules are relaxing. Thank Goodness.

Wow, quite some categorical statement to put it out like that.

Lots has been said about it before and I shall not repeat any of it, no need since you got it sorted for yourself. As for others... not sure it's as simple as to plain "rubbish" RLE.

If you (MtF) are female, act, present and feel the part - in fact you do nothing other than DOING RLE... like it or not.

As for the time your being, acting, feeling, fitting in... not sure if you suggest to expect to go to any e.g. SRS surgeon and ask for it like having some hair transplant appointment/surgery...
and expect that to be - how it ought to work for everyone else too?

... I just cannot see it as a viable alternative... just cannot... and is this just me?
Axélle

I don't think the requirement for some sort of RLE before SRS is a bad thing. I do think the actual length of time required should be more flexible. I think the RLE provides a valuable time for a person to decide if they can, in fact, live as their target gender.

OP makes an excellent point and one which I hadn't thought of :

Could I pass as a female- no

Could I live with a vagina- easily

Although this isn't on my personal radar, I see no reason why girls who don't have the genes to pass fulltime should be denied SRS. Did it develop as a requirement for the NHS to pay?

I don't live fulltime but I do have breasts that give me no problem at all. When I go through airport security I like to conceal some metal so that I can see the look on the face of the male that has just grabbed both of my boobs. I'm bad I know >:-)

Quote from: sandrauk on August 18, 2012, 06:38:29 AM
OP makes an excellent point and one which I hadn't thought of :

Could I pass as a female- no

Could I live with a vagina- easily

Although this isn't on my personal radar, I see no reason why girls who don't have the genes to pass fulltime should be denied SRS. Did it develop as a requirement for the NHS to pay?

[clipped]

Excellent point? Really?

It could be next that NHS will pay then for tattoos, ear-piercings, stapling, genital modifications of all sorts (there are sure to be plenty of those around also...)

This suggestion is also WAY off my radar for sure, as I feel that Transition is in this case mixed up with all sorts of fetsch based body modifications.
Not exactly what most females (TS) have in mind? Just a suggestion...

Baffled,
Axélle

I wasn't meaning to generalise about you or anyone else, Axelle.

But do you therefore think that girls who don't have the capacity to undertake a RLE , for whatever reason, should be denied SRS?

Tatoos and fetishes - sorry but that's nothing to do with it.

I've made my choices and I refuse to feel like a second class citizen.

Quote from: sandrauk on August 18, 2012, 07:28:14 AM
I wasn't meaning to generalise about you or anyone else, Axelle.

But do you therefore think that girls who don't have the capacity to undertake a RLE , for whatever reason, should be denied SRS?

Tatoos and fetishes - sorry but that's nothing to do with it.

I've made my choices and I refuse to feel like a second class citizen.

I'm somewhat limited I suppose, having some difficulty finding a grounding in living, acting, being, presenting all male --- and then insist on having SRS.
That feels as alien to me as splitting one's penis like a burst banana, or any of those other wild and wonderful things people like to have done.
The possibilities are almost endless...
In the end though, and in fairness "we cannot understand what we cannot feel..."
and I fail to feel, how one can without RLE, without any notion to BE female, want to have female genitals?!
Honestly its way out of my ball park - and obviously just that for practically any therapist knowing the SOC.
It's in my take a road to hell in a hand-basket, to insist on some such.

Just my thinking,
Axélle

QuoteOriginally posted by Apples:

Last thoughts: For me, all of these years have already been some sort of RLE for a male life, and I never felt satisfied on it.

Wow, that's a really good way of looking at one's "previous" situation...as a RLE trying to live as a man.

For me, it sucked. By doing RLE (without being asked to, I just couldn't stand any more days as a guy), it has only confirmed my suspicions...I am a woman.

And I want my surgeries (SRS and FFS), dammit! Call hither thine Insurance Companies!!

:)

Hey all, everyone added some great points. IMHO, the main thing is the rules have relaxed to take us as individuals, not some category or breed or subspecies that all needs the same thing.

I just draw the line at the antiquated notion of femininity/masculinity, and I'm surprised more of us don't do the same (Axelle, I'm peering over my glasses at you, my clearly strong sister)... My cisfemale wife does not cross her legs, she does not wear women's clothes often, she has been mistaken for a little boy (seriously cute, but still).... doesn't give a cr@p. I am lucky that I have been told I'm very um cute/attractive/androgynous, which is nice, except that I'm six 2, so passing becomes hit or miss. And where I live, there are people who will most certainly kill you for it. It happens in the states enough as well, but eastern europe can be very nasty indeed.

My wife and my close friends know we're lesbians and call me she, my body and mind are at ease at long last having had srs a few weeks ago, when I look down I am not shaken anymore and when i make love to my wife (in good time, but ohgawdicanteventhinkaboutitrightnow) it will feel as it always should have felt, inside and out. These are the things that matter to me, and none of them have anything to do with RLE (as defined by those blasted rules). What the grocery clerk calls me (sir/maam), what the bartender eyeing the M on my license, says to me, is irrelevant.

And of course that's totally not even getting into the subject of genderqueerness, genderf0ck, etc.... it should be your right to have transformative srs surgery under whatever conditions you want. Isn't it your body?? But that's another topic!  :-X

Everyone should be able to be themselves, that's all.

Yesterday I went out, and...  more girls were sitting with the legs spread than crossing.

BTW, crossing legs too oftencan lead to a medical condition for the knees, so it is not a good idea, specially if you already have a medical warning on the matter, like me.

I've been living full time as a woman since last summer. The fact that the woman I'm living full time as is not feminine is irrelevant.

Quote from: Apples on August 19, 2012, 04:13:08 AM
Yesterday I went out, and...  more girls were sitting with the legs spread than crossing.

BTW, crossing legs too oftencan lead to a medical condition for the knees, so it is not a good idea, specially if you already have a medical warning on the matter, like me.

this is about as much nonsense as I've seen in a while.

presumable the girls were wearing trackie bottoms?

I have no problem with the concept of Real Life Experience as such, despite the fact that we start of with no real experience to build on, so if it was serious there would be a massive support package in place at the start. 
The word I have a problem with is "requirement", especially if there is any mandatory minimum time limit.
Some people can hit the ground running and others will need a long period of learning to be their target gender.
Karen.

Personally I think there have been issues with RLE over the years depending on what sort of gatekeeping it is used for.

Using RLE as gatekeeping for HRT I think is possibly cruel.  There is a significant portion of our population that doesn't have a chance of passing without some of the effects from HRT and to force someone to go through the hazing process of being clocked constantly for 3 months before the first script is cruel in my opinion.  For some people that might not matter, but for some others, that can be the difference between life and death.

RLE prior to SRS though, probably has value in my opinion.  Living a period of time in your target gender is a good way of affirming what you know is going on in your head so to speak.

What I just put up above goes out the window once you start talking about genderqueer, gender->-bleeped-<- though.  I suspect that over the next few decades, that gender norms are going to relax somewhat, and that the gender binary may erode a little.

It use to be the case, in some places, that one needed to have real-life-experience prior to receiving HRT.  That was then modified to a concurrent experience.

Both were cruel, in my opinion, especially for the transitioning MtF.

The rationale about RLE prior to SRS/GCS is sound - to prevent regrets that lead to suicide. But one size (in terms of policy) may not fit all.

Research indicates (and no, I can't find the link, which is annoying) that there's no proof that RLE before surgery leads to a lower regret rate (the regret rate is incredibly low anyway, and there's not enough info about what issues the regretters have besides gender dysphoria that might be contributing, so it's not even very meaningful statistics).

I think there's a value for some people in taking their time, and settling into role. But not everyone seems to need that.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yoxi.net%2Fanitya%2Ftgd-rlt.jpg&hash=fedb588e562ae15d1e0ce8beee62f11abeca20ff)

Years before I transitioned I learned about RLE and that, in my country at the time, one year was required before HRT. It seemed absolutely insane to me to have to be put through that.  I certainly see how waiting a year or so before SRS can be a good thing, but RLE before HRT I don't really get.

The only place I had learned about transitioning was in the news, and all the women they reported on had adapted this stereotypical presentation of femininity in the fashion of yesteryear. I particularly remember one news report about a transitioning woman that was shown in her workplace wearing pink pumps, a tacky mini skirt, a flowery blouse, 5 o'clock shadow, raccoon makeup and a Dolly Parton wig. All the reports I ever saw was of this kind and it seemed to me that this sort of presentation was required for anyone seeking treatment. I found it extremely off putting to have to conform to such a stereotype with no HRT and no chance of passing. I remember wondering if I would be denied treatment should they ever catch me wearing pants. Once I got started I knew that wasn't really the case, but going to my appointments at the GIC  I still had this nagging fear of being rejected for not living up to their standard of what presenting as a woman means.

I don't really get exactly how RLE is defined. In the early stages of my transition I thought I was doing it, but then my one day while I was over for dinner my mom asked if I had been outside as a woman yet. Apparently she too was expecting the flowery dress, pink pumps and matching handbag.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 20, 2012, 12:51:58 PM
I don't really get exactly how RLE is defined.

One of the most personally disturbing definitions was changing my gender legally on documents before hand (this is possible in places). I am one of the incredibly lucky people who have a prior spouse who decides to stay on for the ride. In a country where gay marriage is illegal, RLE would have meant possibly annulling my marriage. Which I would never do.

Ultimately, and I think most of us could testify to this, is that a year or two on full HRT is what should be mandatory, not RLE. The people who fetishize this process (and there are plenty) WILL fall by the wayside as their testosterone and libido goes away. They will quit on their own, while those of us who know who we are are affirmed by the process, happy by the loss of erections and the new ways/sensations of our bodies, will be fully mentally and emotionally ready for the surgical next step.

As ever people do not fit into neat boxes. Some of us transition well and easily, for some it is a time of fear and worry.
I think Karen made a very fine comment in that if an RLE is to be useful it needs to be supported by professionals to help in the steps. People who can help the 'TG' (for the sake of the post) to learn how to present, how to dress, how to do some makeup etc. Not everyone has a (in the case of MtF)  very female figure and need some advice in 'fitting in'. They need their confidence supported and lessons to how to handle themselves in social situations.  How to do simple things like how to use a rest room (OK bizarre but true for some).  How to stand up for yourself as a woman.

These are life lessons that both males and females learn as they grow. In the case of adults transitioning these lessons may not be obvious, but they make a difference between acceptance and rejection.

I don't think there should be any 'exam' as to whether you succeed or not but a transition RLE can have a lot of benefit.

JMO

Cindy

I think if you have the money to pay for SRS, sign the consent forms and have at it. You should know what you're getting into, and if not, then the blame falls on you for being so irresponsible.

Quote from: SilentOwls on September 01, 2012, 07:43:09 AM
I think if you have the money to pay for SRS, sign the consent forms and have at it. You should know what you're getting into, and if not, then the blame falls on you for being so irresponsible.

I agree with you there, but you still must have safe guards built in also to the process. Seeing two psychologists also is a good idea to see if your mentally prepared and fully understand what you are doing. A two year mandatory of HRT is also good and doing away with RLE requirements. It is true that most who try to transition as a fetish will drop out of HRT before the two yr requirement. The question i ask is why should people be required to wear makeup, wear a dress or skirt to get SRS when alot of cis females already dress Androgynous.

Most people who do have postup regret always try to blame their Therapist or Doctor. They should take responsibilities for their own actions. That is what is wrong with the system.

I think several professional had made what may be necessary for some mandatory for all. I wonder why? perhaps a good way to secure some business.

IMAO

RLE before HRT is harmful and cruel.
RLE before SRS may be a good thing for a selected ones.
A endo to monitor HRT is totally unnecessary, any GP can do the monitoring
A GP or endo may require a letter of concurrence from a psychologies, psychiatrist, or other GP who knows the patient well, otherwise, if the GP or endo knows the patient well, then just go ahead with the HRT

Now, most people would agree with my requirements as stated above, then why are they not in place ?


Perhaps a great deal of gate-keeping has to do with money, of course under the guise of "caring"

Quote from: peky on September 03, 2012, 02:47:56 PM
I think several professional had made what may be necessary for some mandatory for all. I wonder why? perhaps a good way to secure some business.

IMAO

RLE before HRT is harmful and cruel.
RLE before SRS may be a good thing for a selected ones.
A endo to monitor HRT is totally unnecessary, any GP can do the monitoring
A GP or endo may require a letter of concurrence from a psychologies, psychiatrist, or other GP who knows the patient well, otherwise, if the GP or endo knows the patient well, then just go ahead with the HRT

Now, most people would agree with my requirements as stated above, then why are they not in place ?


Perhaps a great deal of gate-keeping has to do with money, of course under the guise of "caring"

Medical Society is all about Money............Money greatly figures into their decisions

IMO, I think the medical community sees TG folk as cash cows.

Nothing more, nothing less.

RLE is silly,  some of us want to keep our jobs a little longer.  Not everyone is prada and lipstick.

I didn't have to do any of that before hormones and by the time I am ready for SRS I will definitely be full time but to mandate someone to be your personal monkey for a year p*sses me off.  And if for some reason you don't bow to their every whim they control whether you are a girl or not in the eyes of society is also another load of BS.

My doctor says not everyone is self medicating like you are, and those of us that are tend to suffer more in front of a psychologist who wants to break apart every aspect of our existence and pass judgement that is most likely off base.

Is a a year + of painful electrolysis not enough?  I sure as heck am not doing it because I enjoy pain.

Isn't the 26 years of my life, most of it knowing how wrong my life was not enough?

Isn't the fact that sometimes I cry sometimes fearing being forced to be a guy again enough?

Isn't the fact that I finally love my life not enough?  My happiness is not enough?

Some people need guidance, someone to talk to.  Someone to help push them, but even those people deserve better than dog is trained. 

Sorry for the anger, I can be a bit of a firecracker when my well being is threatened.  Where I go to at Callen Lorde I shouldn't have to worry about getting a bad therapist. They are all kind and very easy to pass through.
It is easy to spot someone who is confused, and not resolute in their decision.  I was very resolute and significantly educated on the topic, I came in ready to begin and I began a month later on HRT.

I mean that was my primary reason for being on this forum, I don't understand everything about hormones and SRS and not even a doctor knows everything.  This community shows the results and points of view of people with body types, and genes very different from my own.  As such I tend to ask stupid questions.

Yesterday I could not sleep thinking about this. Let's face it: I don't have an girly, androgynous or barely passable face. For me, this is like torture.



Basically I can't do it while living with my family:

- With my parents at home: Strictly forbidden (not that I want to be seen like that)

- What if they went on holidays?: Risk of being spotted by one of the 66 neighboring homes in the building, and gossiping spreads quickly. It is impossible to go down twelve floors without being stopped and spending one minute in a lift with somebody that can easily recognise you.

- At work? Impossible, I don't work in a cubicle.



But still thinking about how could I do it. The face is a disaster, but maybe the body...

- Skinny form fitting unisex pants? they could work, but the tucking is going to be quite difficult or impossible.
- Strong thick and long neck? Maybe a wig that could go down to the shoulders...
- gigantic adam's apple? To big for a make up trick, I would need a turtleneck sweater.
- torso? Luckily I have a decent figure, but a corset could help.
- Beard? Already on laser. Too bad about the burns still being visible, but I can hide them with concealer.
- Skin? Gigantic pores. I could use a professional cleaning and a chemical peeling, but not so sure on how can it help.
- EyeBrows and brow bossing? I'll need my eyebrows to be done, I have the courage to enter a saloon.
- Hair? Wig is mandatory
- Walking gait? Absolutely the worst. It is like having no balance and I walk like a zombie. If I forget about keeping the posture I will go back to walking like a hunchback again. Ca a corset help here?

I hope it can be avoided, and the maximum I could do is just a few days if I were to go to a place nobody knows me and I would never have go back to.





Mmmm, I could also put a brown paper bag with two holes over my head, that should fix all the problems.

I am still highly against RLE for unpassable transfolks who do not feel the need to do it. Sure, if that's what you want, by all means and good luck. But as any requirement for anything else, well, that's BS. Most therapists can understand that at this point.

As for the rest, eyebrows you can do yourself over a few sessions and with some online help... no need to chuck money at that IMHO. Remember to go slow, as some hairs never grow back up there once plucked.... take off a bit, wait a day, a bit more... etc. NOthing is worse on cisfemales or us than overplucked eyebrows! Adam's apple... practice pulling it up into the top part of your throat, like when you swallow. That's actually the start of developing a female voice anyway, but it makes mine vanish entirely. Unless yours is the size of a tennis ball, yours should too...a lot of the other stuff are NOT things ALL natal women have. Some have big pores, some have bad posture, etc. If your face really is unpassable at this stage (and it might well be; some people are just that way sadly), I'd just shoot for androgynous stuff, realize a lot of women dress that way too, and F the RLE. No one in your building or parents could complain about androgyny, and they'll get used to you like that slowly...and then you can push the envelope a bit more.... I did that with my old conservative parents, and people can think I'm a girl on the street and I go home and my parents still see me as I always was. Kinda like boiling a frog in a pot...throw it in and the frog freaks out; heat it slowly and the frog don't know what hit it. :)

Obviously I don't want to go though it, but my options are limited. There are no gender therapists and the only road to HRT is going through the government's social security's GID unit. I can't go to another therapist because to put it simply, they are the only ones that can allow the treatment to start here. So bracing myself for the worst.


And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 07:53:45 AM
Mmmm, I could also put a brown paper bag with two holes over my head, that should fix all the problems.

Make that a pink paper bag and you're golden.

I agree with GendrKweer's advice, it's all good. Going about it one small step at a time is a great way to do it. I did it myself and was amazed by how people that saw me all the time really didn't notice anything.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 08:41:01 AM
And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

I was wondering about this myself but the fact of the matter is that they don't. At first I thought I had to come dressed as a middle aged upper middle class lady to get treatment, but it's not really like that. You can if you want to, and some do I guess, but you don't have to. You just need to figure out what works for you and what makes you feel comfortable.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 07:53:45 AM
Yesterday I could not sleep thinking about this. Let's face it: I don't have an girly, androgynous or barely passable face. For me, this is like torture.



Basically I can't do it while living with my family:

- With my parents at home: Strictly forbidden (not that I want to be seen like that)

- What if they went on holidays?: Risk of being spotted by one of the 66 neighboring homes in the building, and gossiping spreads quickly. It is impossible to go down twelve floors without being stopped and spending one minute in a lift with somebody that can easily recognise you.

- At work? Impossible, I don't work in a cubicle.

So... when do you plan to transition? Will you never see your family again? Will you move to a house with no one near it? Will you give up work forever?

At some point we are all caught between being male and being female. It is a halfway existence that we cannot avoid because we cannot go from 100% male to 100% female, so unless you plan to transition on a desert island with yourself as the only person on it, how will you deal with OTHER people in the halfway stage?

I am there now - neither one nor the other but I had reached the point where the transition was so important to me that I was willing to tell anyone, live with anyone's derision, take any risk as long as I could keep transitioning. Until you reach that point of desperation it is very hard to transition. The very act forces a "coming out" and you had better be ready for it because there is no hiding.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 08:41:01 AM
And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

In the UK they simply require a paper trail. A change of name witnessed by someone like a magistrate or solicitor, updated records with the tax authorities, payslips in your female name (explain that to your employer while trying to stay in male mode), bank statements in your female name, memberships of clubs or societies in your female name, and so on.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
So... when do you plan to transition? Will you never see your family again? Will you move to a house with no one near it? Will you give up work forever?

No need to be harsh. I talked with my family abut what I was going to do, and what they offered me was: "We don't want anybody here to know. You can stay here hidden or leave, but I don't want to see you in a "dress or a mini-skirt" and with long hair. You will cause a depression to your mother and she will be interned into a psychiatric ward, and we will be the shame of the neighbourhood until we die. Now is a good time for you to start looking for your own home".

There you have your answer, are you happy now? If I have to do RLE, I need to find my own place to live, and it is not particularly easy with the current economic situation and my economic possibilities. On the job, I will disclose it when the bosses allow it. If not, I will keep it hidden. What I CAN'T DO is to go against the will of the persons that allow me to stay at their home because it is impossible for me to live on my own, and they can't financially support me thanks to the crisis.

If I had my own place to live, it would be a whole different story. But my only options for now are:

- Transition at home "hidden", with androgyne as the maximum I can opt to.

- Hope the renting prizes bubble breaks down so I can afford a place where I can be myself without the family restraints, or be extremely lucky to find something in one of the most expensive places of the country.

In fact, I would have come out much earlier if I had not been practically controlled by my family and chastised for the slightest un-manly gender slip.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 09:05:44 AM
In the UK they simply require a paper trail. A change of name witnessed by someone like a magistrate or solicitor, updated records with the tax authorities, payslips in your female name (explain that to your employer while trying to stay in male mode), bank statements in your female name, memberships of clubs or societies in your female name, and so on.

Here that is not legally possible. In fact, you are not even allowed to have a neutral name. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

When I got sober, I started getting honest and accepting of my self. This led to a very gradual physical transition over the coure of 1 year. Now, keep in mind, I wasn't aware of what was happening. My denial about my own femininity was very strong, I couldn't see who I was. I just allowed myself to do whatever made me comfortable, because thats what recovery from alcohol means for me (I drank to deal with all things, but one big one was my gender identity). After a year I looked in the mirror and got scared. I was presenting female without categorizing it that way. I had long manicured nails, all womens clothing, long hair, makeup...This is by no means any one else's presentation, but it Is mine. That being said, I identified as male at the time, so one could also call this presentation a RLE as Male, as well. WHAT IS RLE?? I lived my life as a male who worked out constantly to masculinize himself to try and feel better but only ever felt worse. I lived my life as a male who presented fully female. Are either experiences pure experiences of gender in society? Or are each very complex unique experiences of being a trans person who is confused, and sick with self-hate? The world saw me as male, maybe thats what is important.

After I looked at my self and got scared of what I saw (I saw a girl, and still believed that I was supposed to be a boy), the illusion of my male self shattered. I was finally able to see myself. All my lifelong fear and denial broke away and left me. In that moment, I saw my transgender identity, and I finally accepted her, and loved her. So in my experience, I had to bring my physical expression of gender further away from male in order to see what was inside. My denial was too thick. But this was personal, it was never mandated. My experience was entirely different than any requisite RLE bull->-bleeped-<-. OF COURSE it makes sense to live as the gender you identify as, but to suggest that there is any mapped way to do that is ludicrous. Yes, our society handles people differently based on their gender, or their gender presentation, but to assume that they deal with trans people the same way they deal with cis people is absurd. After I ID'd as trans, I went full force as feminine as I wanted. I had denied my femininity my whole life, so it was great fun and liberating for a bit. This was PRE-hormones, mind you, so NO I did not pass. I have been living Full-Time with a male name, which I have chosen to keep, for 5 months. Only 3 weeks of which are on Hormones. Society has handled me in its own little way. I pass at a passing glance, but no scrutinizing eye genders me female. I know now more than ever that this is my truth and my gender and I am free, but my RLE was personal and taught me who I was because I lived MY truth. If someone told me to live out their truth, some standardized RLE or whatever, I would diminish.

We are floral and complex. The comment posted prior about our lives pre-transition being RLE for our previous genders is right on the money. If ever I have the suspicion of a doubt, I recall the 23 years I spent struggling to be male, and failing. This isn't hard, its easy. I am fortunate to have a TG Clinic that operates on Informed Consent. The horror stories I hear on here about you girls' RLE, and sometimes being DENIED HRT after great time working this cistem makes me sick. I am so sorry.

We are real. When the cis world tells us who we are, what we are, and how we will live our lives - they are denying our reality. They are claiming ownership over our bodies and our identities, and veiling this occupation of Transgender Reality as Medical Care. This is not about treating us well, it is about controlling us. As long as the cis world mandates our transitions, they control us. How dare a cis person tell you if you are truly trans?

This whole business makes me ill, and its not to say that we don't work it and find great solace with our doctors and our treatment. I know we all see this differently. I don't think our doctors are evil. I believe the system in place is inadequate and sick.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
.. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

That's a bugger.  :( Naming requirements in the UK are the most liberal in the world. Anything goes except for those deemed offensive.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
No need to be harsh.

On these forums? sometimes there is a need. Not everyone thinks about the issues involved. If you have then so much the better but some people are very unrealistic.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
I talked with my family abut what I was going to do, and what they offered me was: "We don't want anybody here to know. You can stay here hidden or leave, but I don't want to see you in a "dress or a mini-skirt" and with long hair. You will cause a depression to your mother and she will be interned into a psychiatric ward, and we will be the shame of the neighbourhood until we die. Now is a good time for you to start looking for your own home".

I think you need to talk with them again. Not every woman has long hair or wears a mini-skirt, or wears make-up. I am wearing jeans, no make up and my hair tied back but I am in transition and am in RLE. You do not have to stand out from the crowd and like MariaMx said, you can adjust gradually and slowly and give everyone around you time to adapt.

There are women out there who look 'butch' or manly. You do not have to be a girly-girl. It does not have to be pink ribbons and flowers and taffetta ballgowns. What is a woman? What defines her as one?

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
There you have your answer, are you happy now?

It makes no difference to me. I was attempting to ensure that YOU had considered everything. I posted it for your good, not mine.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
If I have to do RLE, I need to find my own place to live,

No you do not.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
On the job, I will disclose it when the bosses allow it. If not, I will keep it hidden.

What legislation is in place to protect you as a transitioner?

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
In fact, you are not even allowed to have a neutral name. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

Nonetheless there will be rules for RLE in your area. Find out what they are. I doubt very much that they say you must wear makeup and dresses because most women do not wear them either. And even if they did - how much makeup? Just mascara? Just natural lipstick? Just clear nail polish? etc. There are lots of ways to comply without anyone noticing.

You have more choices than you think.

Actually, once you're in the thick of it and have found what works for you RLE is nowhere near as scary as one would think. You get used to it very quickly. Besides, there's really no way around it. You can procrastinate all you want but one day you may wake up and find you have just been wasting more time putting things off while making excuses. Once you get to the point where you have to transition you'll just do it, consequences be damned.

I lost the faith on my parents ever accepting something about me years ago. Ever since I got my first job I've been saving everything to get far from them, and it is still not possible. They hate everything I think or do, and they are the main  cause of me being in therapy just to stop thinking about killing them every day. Lasering my face? Followed and insulted. Spending money? Followed, insulted and they even try to open my bank letters. Buying a magazine in a language only I can read? I am worse than Hitler. Taking a shower? resource expending criminal that "spends their water". Long hair? Every day shouting to cut it until I was too tired. A different style of clothing? Being called ->-bleeped-<-ott. Taking care about my aspect or ever buying cosmetics or hair products?  You don't want to imagine. Wanting to put a stop to losing my hair? more insults regarding my mental health.
I killed most of my hobbies because I couldn't take it anymore. Every time they see something they don't like, they keep making my life miserable until I give up just to make them stop.


I already explained to that I had no plans of ever going dressed like that, but it does not matter. The local GID center also makes appointments with the parents to make them understand the situation, but I don't want them to understand anything. I just want them out of my life, or me out of their lives. With my brother is the same story, he wants to flee and put the biggest possible distance between themselves

If they were more accepting or I was not forced to have contact with them, none of this would matter. But every small step I try to take is scanned, like if did not have another thing to do. I have lost the count of times I had to say "can't you stop staring at me?". Guess where my social phobia comes from. Also, I don't have any privacy at home.

A new legislation was approved three months ago, but my workplace is in some sort of legal limbo where national policies don't apply, and I have a nice clausule in my contract that more or less says "we can remove you without saying why in the moment we don't like you" In fact, that's how all my predecessors were fired, a minimum slip and they can request another person as if they were buying clothing.


Remove them from the equation and the problem is solved. I don't want to delay this anymore and the GID therapy is already rolling, so let's hope they accept it or I can escape.


Not a lot more to talk. That's my situation. I am not accepted. I was never accepted. I tried for years to earn a bit of respect from them and I never got it. THe only thing they will accept is me being a clone of them.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 09:50:40 AM

What legislation is in place to protect you as a transitioner?

Looks like I need to work on two different legislations. The local one was upgraded on June to give a bigger degree of protection. But since I am bind to european law at the same time, we run into a bit of a labyrinth. I have looked into our network of agencies, and one of our sisters deals with LGBT issues and discrimination. As the therapy advances, I will probably ask them since we are at the same legal level, but when they see it coming from a mail address in their own domain, it is going to be a bit of a surprise.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 09:50:40 AM
On these forums? sometimes there is a need. Not everyone thinks about the issues involved. If you have then so much the better but some people are very unrealistic.

Just be aware that not all stories are tragic ones. I have seen just as many happy stories as horror stories. I was accepted by my family and I am even Pastoring in a church as a transgender.

It's not always doom and gloom. It's like everything else in life. There's a mix and match of this and that when it comes to tragedies and triumphs.

QuoteI think you need to talk with them again. Not every woman has long hair or wears a mini-skirt, or wears make-up. I am wearing jeans, no make up and my hair tied back but I am in transition and am in RLE. You do not have to stand out from the crowd and like MariaMx said, you can adjust gradually and slowly and give everyone around you time to adapt.

I believe the wardrobe should reflect the person. For me, I own only one pair of jeans. I enjoy mini skirts and knee length skirts, and I wear make up. I enjoy those things and it fits my personality and who I am.  My family had adjusted to my wardrobe changes (because that was nothing compared to adjusting to my gender change).

QuoteThere are women out there who look 'butch' or manly. You do not have to be a girly-girl. It does not have to be pink ribbons and flowers and taffetta ballgowns. What is a woman? What defines her as one?

True, but don't discount those of us who enjoy looking "girly girl."

A woman is not defined by the clothes they wear. A woman is designed by who she is. Clothing accentuates her personality. You can butch or all the way to "girly girl." The most important is being true to your real self.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 10, 2012, 10:11:28 AM
Actually, once you're in the thick of it and have found what works for you RLE is nowhere near as scary as one would think. You get used to it very quickly. Besides, there's really no way around it. You can procrastinate all you want but one day you may wake up and find you have just been wasting more time putting things off while making excuses. Once you get to the point where you have to transition you'll just do it, consequences be damned.

exactly. You're nervous for about a week or two and then poof. It becomes the norm. I started my first day of RLE at a Seminary. Now that's crazy lol

Trying to be honest, the real thing that worries me is the voice thing and doing the RLE sounding like a trucker. If I have to be sincere with myself, I'd put the voice as the first most important thing when it comes to give a decent image, more than hormones, surgery or clothing. When I think about "staying hidden as much as necessary", is mostly because the voice thing feels overwhelming and I don't know if I can get it done. My fear is that without the proper voice, I won't be correctly identified, even with all the other things. And I am not exactly good at this or have a melodic voice.

Yesterday I picked the kathe's cd's and a tuner for practising when I am not next to the computer, but I need a bit of help with finding my real limitations and work with what I have. I believe my maximum range is between 180-190, and possibly the 220 hz is not in my possibilities. Is this good or bad (please see the thread I created)

One can over-estimate the voice (pitch!) thing as well... I have seen this happening.

Get a 90kg person tries sound like a school girl... you must be kidding!

As to RLE I know of cases that, though it's their prerogative to do without, - promptly wound up in a hole FOR YEARS unable to dig themselves out of.

Sad to see such to happen, just because one 'knows better'...

Axélle

May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

This is fine and maybe it is a reflection of your doubts and inner concerns of where you wish to be in life and who you wish to be.

Stealth was never an option for me. NO way, not in anyway. Yes I went to work gradually changing my appearance but I wasn't fooling anyone, no one was suddenly going to forget my 20 years of being in my professional position. In the end I had to go full time. I knew it and I built myself up for it. My voice doesn't pass.  I was a University lecturer before microphones were used. I was taught to project my voice. Undoing that is nigh impossible. I don't care, I have a male voice and I present female. No one cares, at least if they do they never approach me about it. I shop, go to theatre etc and my voice is mine. No on has 'called' me out, and if they did, so what? I'm me. I'm a woman who lives her life and gets on with it. Shopping- OK  I live my life as me, a woman, I take clothes to the changing room to try them on, every woman does. I don't seek permission, I don't seek approval, I'm not a man in a dress. I'm a normal woman and I expect to be treated as one.

My expectation of society treating me is normal. Tell me of any woman who wakes up gets ready for her day and thinks ' I hope they don't treat me as a man'? Well outside of the marines or something.

I don't have any expectation of being treated as anyone but me. If someone does then they are a fool.

But can I emphasize comments that have been posted to you before. You have to put the effort in to fit in. Woman do not treat men as woman. Woman treat woman as woman and they treat men as men.  Social cues are very important. You have to learn them. All woman and all men learn their social cues as the grow. It is part of teenage development (and before). So no you cannot walk into a group of woman and say Hi I'm a woman what do I do next, no matter what you are wearing. You have to practice. Read magazines, study how woman interact in social context, in shopping centres and in competition etc. The interaction is completely different to how men interact.

Just as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.


Whatever you want to call it; transitioning, being yourself, personal acceptance etc is not easy. There is no magic. There is no easy way. It takes hard work. And the harder you work the easier it is.  Same as most things in life.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on September 20, 2012, 06:12:55 AM
May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

Could be. For the moment, I'm trying to find a decent point where I can get close to the edge but not fall down. Finding what are my possibilities and what I can work with.

Quote
Just as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.

To the point of remembering when some clothing has been used before and noticing up to the nail polish. I pay too much attention to details, and occassional slips that grant me a nice "are you sure you aren't gay?"

I have always found it such an oddity when people complain about RLE. This may come across as insensitive and i dont mean it to but if you do not want to present in your chosen gender then you will havr a helluva time with srs.

RLE isnt required for FFS or HRT. I did my RLE without FFS and started RLE 5 months after HRT.

RLE doesnt force you to wear skirts, lip gloss and makeup in order to validate it. If you think that, you neef to research RLE more

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 05:31:54 AM
Trying to be honest, the real thing that worries me is the voice thing and doing the RLE sounding like a trucker. If I have to be sincere with myself, I'd put the voice as the first most important thing when it comes to give a decent image, more than hormones, surgery or clothing. When I think about "staying hidden as much as necessary", is mostly because the voice thing feels overwhelming and I don't know if I can get it done. My fear is that without the proper voice, I won't be correctly identified, even with all the other things.

Getting my voice right was a must for me before RLE. I took my time to make sure i was ready

Quote from: Cindy James on September 20, 2012, 06:12:55 AM
May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

This is fine and maybe it is a reflection of your doubts and inner concerns of where you wish to be in life and who you wish to be.

Stealth was never an option for me. NO way, not in anyway. Yes I went to work gradually changing my appearance but I wasn't fooling anyone, no one was suddenly going to forget my 20 years of being in my professional position. In the end I had to go full time. I knew it and I built myself up for it. My voice doesn't pass.  I was a University lecturer before microphones were used. I was taught to project my voice. Undoing that is nigh impossible. I don't care, I have a male voice and I present female. No one cares, at least if they do they never approach me about it. I shop, go to theatre etc and my voice is mine. No on has 'called' me out, and if they did, so what? I'm me. I'm a woman who lives her life and gets on with it. Shopping- OK  I live my life as me, a woman, I take clothes to the changing room to try them on, every woman does. I don't seek permission, I don't seek approval, I'm not a man in a dress. I'm a normal woman and I expect to be treated as one.

My expectation of society treating me is normal. Tell me of any woman who wakes up gets ready for her day and thinks ' I hope they don't treat me as a man'? Well outside of the marines or something.

I don't have any expectation of being treated as anyone but me. If someone does then they are a fool.

Like Cindy, I have a male voice. It's the same one as I've always had. I had some vocal training and as a result, I project my voice all the time - it's not something I really have any control over any more. How I construct a sentence and things like my cadence and intonation have changed - but my pitch has not changed one iota.

QuoteBut can I emphasize comments that have been posted to you before. You have to put the effort in to fit in. Woman do not treat men as woman. Woman treat woman as woman and they treat men as men.  Social cues are very important. You have to learn them. All woman and all men learn their social cues as the grow. It is part of teenage development (and before). So no you cannot walk into a group of woman and say Hi I'm a woman what do I do next, no matter what you are wearing. You have to practice. Read magazines, study how woman interact in social context, in shopping centres and in competition etc. The interaction is completely different to how men interact.

This is something I've always done - whether I was conscious or not that I was doing it. So far, I've found that just doing what comes naturally is working for me.

QuoteJust as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.


Whatever you want to call it; transitioning, being yourself, personal acceptance etc is not easy. There is no magic. There is no easy way. It takes hard work. And the harder you work the easier it is.  Same as most things in life.

Cindy

I've learnt that there are 2 things that are vital in transition.. Self acceptance is the first one, because confidence comes along with it. The second is a good sense of humour - it's great to be able to laugh at yourself when you mess things up.

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 06:50:10 AM
Getting my voice right was a must for me before RLE. I took my time to make sure i was ready

It was imperative for me too. But that's me. I was running a phone support service for a new company. I was thrown into the deep end.

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 06:42:25 AMRLE isnt required for FFS or HRT. I did my RLE without FFS and started RLE 5 months after HRT.

That's something I am perfectly OK with.

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 06:42:25 AM
RLE doesnt force you to wear skirts, lip gloss and makeup in order to validate it. If you think that, you neef to research RLE more

I only have the steretypical definition (Some like it hot, prior to be allowed to get HRT). Let's see if we can shed some light on the matter, and that no idiot has been toying with the wikipedia:

QuoteRLE is a period of time in which transgender individuals live full-time in their preferred gender role, in order to demonstrate that they can function successfully as a member of said gender in society, as well as to be sure that they wish to live as said gender for the rest of their life.

Now, checking the WPATH Version 6.:

Quote
1. To maintain full or part-time employment;
2. To function as a student;
3. To function in community-based volunteer activity;
4. To undertake some combination of items 1-3;
5. To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name;
6. To provide documentation that persons other than the therapist know that the patient functions in the desired gender role.

I have the first point, and to get the fourth I'd need to either study again or get into some sort of activity. Point five can't legally be done here, and...

Six. That means coming out to a few persons that can acredit it. But not to explicity come out to somebody, correct? No mention to the full time mode...

Now for the WPATH Version 7:

QuoteThe seventh version of the SOC, which was published in 2011 and is the most recent edition of the standards, is more ambiguous, and does not list any specific parameters for the RLE.[2] Instead, they merely state that the individual should be living full-time in their preferred gender role continuously for the duration of the RLE. They do also state that documentation of a name and/or gender marker change can be presented as a way of providing proof that the RLE has been completed, but they do not state that a name and/or gender marker change is actually a necessary requirement for completion of the RLE.[2] Taken together, these changes may be some of WPATH's ways of moving away from the encouragement of "gatekeeping," which the SOC have been greatly scrutinized as well as criticized for in the past.[3][4][5]

Seems more lax, but now the full-time appears. I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization. If RLE was to be done after a few months of HRT (along with all the other things to learn). RLE as a prerequisite for HRT is a pain, but if the expert demands it... RLE as soon as you have enough points to work on it, totally. And RLE as a requisite for name change or SRS, I also believe it to be completely mandatory.

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 07:37:03 AM
I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization.

As they say, or not, your kilometerage may vary. For some, changes under HRT can be immense. Keep up the hope, you never know. Just looking at the before and after thread (without FFS) should give you something to think about. Personally, HRT is essential.

Quote from: Felicitá on September 20, 2012, 08:14:49 AM
As they say, or not, your kilometerage may vary. For some, changes under HRT can be immense. Keep up the hope, you never know. Just looking at the before and after thread (without FFS) should give you something to think about. Personally, HRT is essential.

Yup. I do hope they work, at least the fat redistribution (specially in the face), but since it is kind of a lottery, we can't take anything for granted (save for the sterility, of course).

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 07:37:03 AM
I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization.

Last month I was at a local TS group and I talked to someone clearly at the start of their transition from male to female. This person was still dressing male, had a masculine, short haircut and used a masculine voice. He also walked like a man and made male gestures. He was not attempting to wear make up. When I asked him his name he gave me a female name. Ok - everyone starts somewhere. He then told me he was depressed because everyone genders him as male even though he had SRS 3 years previously and he had now given up on HRT as well.

I thought WTF?

There was absolutely nothing feminine about this person. Five years of HRT and 3 years post-op and even *I* gendered him as male. I looked closer and saw he had AA-cup boobs but that was the only external clue that he had ever indulged in HRT. They could easily pass for moobs instead of boobs.

Even now I cannot regard him as anything other than male - the signals and body language were so overpowering. I discussed him with some of the other girls (to warn them not to make my mistake) and they were astonished as well. Every one of them gendered him as male.

It is the scariest transition I have ever seen. He was of the opinion that HRT and SRS were enough and everyone should now treat him as female. I do wonder how the heck he got through RLE, but he is a very unhappy person. We hope he returns this month so that maybe we can gently guide him to a more feminine presentation.

It's a given that HRT will never make you walk, talk and act female, but it will feminise one's appearance. I've met similar M2F. They had HRT and SRS, but had no voice training and still had male mannerisms. They were very aggressive to those who persistently misgendered them. They scared the hell out of me, because they were the antithesis of where I wanted to be. Although HRT had feminised their appearance, it's all for naught if the rest doesn't match.
Conversely, I got gendered female purely on HRT in androgynous clothes.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 08:54:17 AM
It is the scariest transition I have ever seen. He was of the opinion that HRT and SRS were enough and everyone should now treat him as female. I do wonder how the heck he got through RLE, but he is a very unhappy person. We hope he returns this month so that maybe we can gently guide him to a more feminine presentation.

Incredible. I mean, even I, not trying "anything" from time to time I get weird looks and questions of "you look/act feminine/gay", mostly because of a bit of soft voice (I hate using my real tone) / body language / manners / walking gait (I practised it, although I did not know why I wanted to feel a bit more "femme"). How he got to SRS is even more mindboggling, unless he was hoping it would increase the feminizing effect. It must be like some sort of Buck Angel now.

The HRT not working is a matter of luck, but not working on the other things... No pain, no gain. But what I wonder is ifhe/she never tried from the start, or was waiting until the effects kicked in to go full time but gave up. I've seen a few girls here still on cover after 1-3 years of HRT, but they looked quite good

this is one the reasons why I support RLE.

If that person had gotten SRS 3 years ago and still presented masculine with every feature imaginable this kinda tells me she went the "underground" route for SRS and she never did RLE (or she did RLE but for some unknown reason stopped).

One can dress butch and still look/act like a female. I think this person completely avoided RLE (for whatever reason) and she doesn't know how to cope with her new physical gender as opposed to how she presents.

RLE isn't meant to be a punishment. I was blessed I had to have RLE. My therapist was wonderful in helping me during those few weeks leading up to RLE.

I am serious...once I started RLE...I simply can not imagine wearing men's clothing again. For me, not only was it a gateway for my own SRS but it was tremendously therapeutic and it had SIGNIFICANTLY helped my GID.

I was extremely nervous about it. There was no doubt about that. I had to start my RLE at a Seminary....not really the best place to do it. I remember the first morning. Nervous was an under statement. I ended up running to the bathroom and threw up after the first 15 minutes.

But day by day it got to be so much easier and then one day...a week and a half after I started RLE, it became completely normal for me.

The next meeting is this Saturday. I will update this thread if I get any more information.

One Question, Anna. Prior to RLE, you only needed psychotherapy and later HRT, or you need to do some sort of trial / test?

I only did 7 months of RLE before my bottom surgery. My therapist wrote me my letter early. It made the timing much better.

I guess RLE is useful for some people? I dunno. I mean... what does my vag have to do with living as a girl exactly? Lots of trans guys live as guys with their original plumbing. If a male-assigned-at-birth person wants to do that, what difference does it make to me? But then I'm not really into protecting people from themselves. Offering guidance, sure, but in the end your body is your body.

I dunno, I guess it's a binary thing. This smushing all kinds of unrelated things together like a puzzle. But they don't actually go together. It's just easier if they go together because then you don't have to think as hard.

Really, the people who worry me are the ones who go in for surgery without having the physical dysphoria, because they think it will "make them a woman." Those are the ones I worry will regret it.

It is a major invasive surgery with a year long recovery, terrifying potential complications, and you end up with something that looks like a vagina, but requires maintenance and has limitations. I am super, super happy with my results. But this really should not be a thing you do unless you absolutely feel you need to. And it has very little to do with pronouns or names or social roles or skirts or whatever. It has to do with being okay in your own skin.

But do as you will. Like I said, I'm not into protecting people from themselves.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 08:54:17 AM
He then told me he was depressed because everyone genders him as male even though he had SRS 3 years previously and he had now given up on HRT as well.

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 09:22:56 AM
How he got to SRS is even more mindboggling, unless he was hoping it would increase the feminizing effect.

If she identifies as female, would you mind using female pronouns here? We tend to refer to people on these forums as they request, regardless of the current status of their transition. There are a lot of people here pre-transition and this is one of the only spaces where they get to be gendered correctly. I think that's really great about Susan's, and we should do our best to keep this space like that.

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 20, 2012, 04:16:48 PM
If she identifies as female, would you mind using female pronouns here? We tend to refer to people on these forums as they request, regardless of the current status of their transition. There are a lot of people here pre-transition and this is one of the only spaces where they get to be gendered correctly. I think that's really great about Susan's, and we should do our best to keep this space like that.

I would second this. Otherwise, it seems that the alternative is that our genders and pronouns are to be conferred upon us if we meet the stereotypes of our observers.

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 03:49:35 PM
One Question, Anna. Prior to RLE, you only needed psychotherapy and later HRT, or you need to do some sort of trial / test?

Prior to my RLE i was seeing a therapist for HRT and my SRS Letter. There was no trial or test (in regard to dressing in femme for a night) prior to RLE for me. Matter of fact I hadn't worn a single item of girl's clothing (underwear, shirts, you name it) until my first day of RLE. Now, I did buy my wardrobe before hand and I did try everything on to make sure it fit. But I had an entire two closets full of my chosen gender clothing by the time I went RLE. If money is an issue for you, Ebay and consignment shops are great ways to build up a nice wardrobe.

Matter of fact, halfway through my first week of RLE, I gave my next door neighbor all of my guy clothes. Before I transitioned, I wore the best dress shirts, french cuff shirts, I had about 20 pair of cufflinks, 120 nice ties, 12 pairs of slacks, and six tailored suits.  Needless to say, I made this guy's day...since in Seminary you have to dress nice for your field education and intern in Churches. Girls get off easier lol. Nice top and skirt with hose/tights or pantssuit and your done. Guys have to spend much more. I gave him enough clothing to last a decade lol.

Here was my timeline:

January 2010:          Made the decision
February 2010:        First therapy session
April 2010:               First HRT regiment
August 2010:           First day RLE
December 2010:      Therapy was on December 23. As a Christmas gift she approved my SRS (I did not need to wait one full year for RLE with her because of how much I felt natural with everything. RLE was in every aspect of my life...not just social gatherings. I lived it. 24/7)
February 2011:        Saw secondary therapist
April 2011:               Received second SRS letters


No plans on FFS

You are also much older Annah, I think they try to stick closer to the guides when people are younger, but slack off as they approach middle age.

Quote from: tekla on September 20, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
You are also much older Annah, I think they try to stick closer to the guides when people are younger, but slack off as they approach middle age.

I have noticed that. I inquired my therapist about that once. What she said made a lot of sense. Younger people are more "apt" to change several times as compared to an older person.

I have a friend who transitioned at 50. She went in for therapy and 4 months later she was utterly done with everything.

Now, on the other hand, I know some middle age people have a complete midlife crises and do not know what they want and I have seen some younger people who are absolutely resolved in their decision.

True, but several other things come into play.  One, I think the older you are the more savvy you might be about finding a therapist you're in synch with, and also since you're far more likely to be paying them yourself you not as much at their mercy (you can find a new one anytime) as someone who has someone else's health care covering it, or if its' being done on a community basis.  And, it's much more likely your going to be more honest with them, and with yourself, and have realistic goals and expectations (of course not always, but as a rule I'll bet its true.)  Second, that whole 'well what if you want a family someday' is not an issue if you already have/had one.  Three, it's much less likely that it's going to be seen as 'a phase' some sort of 'experimentation', or 'a whim.'

I absolutely believe in the necessity of the RLE, but didn't always feel that way. In my opinion the stereotypes are rubbish, not the RLE itself. If you don't fit the stereotypes, then fine, don't follow them when doing the RLE. In my opinion, the RLE is not about how to fit in as a stereotypical woman so much as gaining the confidence to live in society as yourself. If you were already living as yourself, you wouldn't have a need to transition.

The RLE is not exactly possible for those of us that look very masculine...  :(

I can understand that side. I guess I'm a little confused about how doing a full transition with surgery is different than the RLE. I kind of look at it as if you can't handle the RLE, how will surgery help? I'm sure I sound mean and I don't mean to. I'm just curious because I don't understand it.

I think the RLE comes before HRT and is sometimes what decides whether some people will get HRT.  ???

Ahh that makes sense. I always thought the RLE was to determine if surgery was in your future, not HRT. I thought you'd be on HRT while on the RLE. I better research that more cause I'd be in the same boat lol. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 08:42:53 PM
The RLE is not exactly possible for those of us that look very masculine...  :(

Well then, you must be very feminine otherwise for guys to let you baby them when they're sick. The first thing I want when I'm sick is a soothing feminine voice bringing me an icepack, soup and taking my temperature.

Quote from: Forum Admin on November 29, 2012, 09:17:50 PM
Well then, you must be very feminine otherwise for guys to let you baby them when they're sick. The first thing I want when I'm sick is a soothing feminine voice bringing me an icepack, soup and taking my temperature.

You don't know my friends like I do. If you give them a place to crash, full TV and stereo access, and some good food, they don't care if it's a man or woman giving it to them. They seriously don't care; they're too objective to give up a good deal because of someone's gender. :laugh:

PS--> I don't know where you're going with the temperature measurement, so I'll just let that slide.  :laugh:

Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 09:13:01 PM
I think the RLE comes before HRT and is sometimes what decides whether some people will get HRT.  ???

I think this is practiced in the UK under the NHS. However it's not practiced that way in the US. You can get HRT before RLE in the USA. I agree with the USA way of doing it because I would never have passed without hormones and it would've made it very difficult to enjoy life as a female just to try to get on HRT. I probably would've killed myself because I would've found no way to happiness, tbh.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 30, 2012, 12:51:18 AM
I think this is practiced in the UK under the NHS. However it's not practiced that way in the US. You can get HRT before RLE in the USA. I agree with the USA way of doing it because I would never have passed without hormones and it would've made it very difficult to enjoy life as a female just to try to get on HRT. I probably would've killed myself because I would've found no way to happiness, tbh.

you are so right. if your not still a child no hormones is just mean and asking for trouble. that's why I am so happy they made sure I did not have to fallow those stupid guidelines

RLE should have been optional because not everyone is planning to present once full-time the way the rule makers and gate keepers would want them to anyway.   :police: :icon_chainsaw:

In the WPATH standards of care, RLE is absolutely not a requirement for anything, except in most cases for genital surgery. There are some primitive health care systems still around that endanger transitioning individuals by requiring RLE before hormones, but it is a cruel and medically contra-indicated practice.

The only requirement in the standards of care for hormones is a letter to the physician from a gender counselor; that requirement is waived for ethical reasons if the patient is already self-medicating because self-medication is such a danger to the physical health of the patient that to withhold professional supervision would go against medical ethics.

Most gender counselors want their clients to get hormones from a professional as soon as they are certain they want them, because for so many of us, actually taking the right hormones for the gender in our heads is a great clarifying, and transforming step-- either making us very sure that this is the right path for us, or leading us to look for other avenues to deal with the dysphoria we feel.

I think it can be relevant for some that are not sure of having GID.  Yes, it can be cruel, but there are ways of not putting yourself at risk. When i was pre op, i would not go out at night as a woman just to safeguard myself.  There is no reason to put yourself in danger.

Quote from: GendrKweer on August 14, 2012, 07:23:17 AM
In short, for anyone who knows what they want / need but feel the RLE requirement will significantly ruin / damage their lives, they can be excused by an empathetic psychologist / surgeon. My US psychologist and my being 12 days post-op by Dr Suporn of Thailand can attest to that.

I went through the standards of care as it was written in the 90's and lived. It's not some unsurmountable obstacle and in terms of a gender transition a few thousand in shrink bills is nothing compared to the surgical costs. That being said I am beginning to think that the best way to weed out the lousy shrinks who write crackpot theories on gender and the whole DSM thing is to bypass it entirely and work with the surgeons and doctors directly on an informed care basis. I would be happy if the whole damn thing was removed from the hands of shrinks and it was enitrely de-listed, or at best call it something like "gender transition assistance" and treat it as a medical condition entirely and not psychological. As long as it' in the DSM in some fashion we will be targets for those who wish us ill.

RLE before SRS seems totally reasonable to me, but the NHS route of RLE prior to HRT has me seriously contemplating self-medding (at least temporarily). There are private clinics that can prescribe but they are at the other end of the country so that's out.

I might be being naive here since I'm coming from a place of no experience, but I'm hoping I can start HRT and try to work things through with my wife to keep our marriage together. Changing my name and coming out to everyone before I can see how I feel HRT (I'm 99% sure it's for me, but there's always that nagging worry it won't be) seems more risky than doing it the other way and doesn't give us time to try and prepare.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on December 10, 2012, 05:57:05 AM
I went through the standards of care as it was written in the 90's and lived. It's not some unsurmountable obstacle and in terms of a gender transition a few thousand in shrink bills is nothing compared to the surgical costs. That being said I am beginning to think that the best way to weed out the lousy shrinks who write crackpot theories on gender and the whole DSM thing is to bypass it entirely and work with the surgeons and doctors directly on an informed care basis. I would be happy if the whole damn thing was removed from the hands of shrinks and it was enitrely de-listed, or at best call it something like "gender transition assistance" and treat it as a medical condition entirely and not psychological. As long as it' in the DSM in some fashion we will be targets for those who wish us ill.

You certainly don't need a therapist either, especially if you have RLE.
But I do agree that we should do away with both.

Honestly, RLE isn't as rough as some think it is.

However, ask yourself this: if you are planning on changing genders...wouldn't you want to look like the gender you are presenting?

Ive RLE for 4 years now and the first couple days was very nervous...but you get over that quickly.

But RLE, in my opinion, is important. If you cannot handle dressing in the gender you feel you are then that, to me, is hard to understand.

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2012, 03:40:14 PM
Honestly, RLE isn't as rough as some think it is.

However, ask yourself this: if you are planning on changing genders...wouldn't you want to look like the gender you are presenting?

Ive RLE for 4 years now and the first couple days was very nervous...but you get over that quickly.

But RLE, in my opinion, is important. If you cannot handle dressing in the gender you feel you are then that, to me, is hard to understand.

It isn't as clear cut as that. Not everyone lives in an area where their safety is reasonably guaranteed if they are unpassable, yet they would benefit greatly from privately knowing their gender has been matched with their parts so to speak. In any case, the final thought should be: it is my body; if I am of sound mind, then I should be allowed to modify it as I see fit, without having to explain to anyone why I want to do that. A cisfemale can go to a plastic surgeon and get triple F implants even though they are purely elective; a biomale can get his penis bifurcated on a whim as a body mod without having to think much about the consequences. So if for no other reason than that, SRS could be considered simple body modification. Of course, it means more than that to me, and to most of us. But I will never presume to pass judgement on another or prevent them from doing as they like if his or her rationale differs from mine.

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2012, 03:40:14 PM
Honestly, RLE isn't as rough as some think it is.

I would like to reiterate that for HRT and perhaps FFS, the RLE requirement is rather unfair because it isn't exactly feasible for some of us more manly-looking folks to try and live as a female. For SRS, there is some merit to the RLE rules.

Quote from: GendrKweer on December 11, 2012, 04:49:57 PM
It isn't as clear cut as that. Not everyone lives in an area where their safety is reasonably guaranteed if they are unpassable, yet they would benefit greatly from privately knowing their gender has been matched with their parts so to speak. In any case, the final thought should be: it is my body; if I am of sound mind, then I should be allowed to modify it as I see fit, without having to explain to anyone why I want to do that. A cisfemale can go to a plastic surgeon and get triple F implants even though they are purely elective; a biomale can get his penis bifurcated on a whim as a body mod without having to think much about the consequences. So if for no other reason than that, SRS could be considered simple body modification. Of course, it means more than that to me, and to most of us. But I will never presume to pass judgement on another or prevent them from doing as they like if his or her rationale differs from mine.

So, say someone who was born a male now wants to live as a female....they will still dress as a male for fear of what someone would say or do? Normally, if one wishes to be a female, one would usually dress somewhat as a female to some extent.

Getting a vagina isn't going to make wearing female clothes any easier...no one sees through the pants. And if someone is unpassable now, getting a vagina will not make someone passable.

Also, you do not need therapy standards for FFS. You do not need a letter to get Boob Implants either. You need a letter for HRT and SRS and for a gender change on your license.

And SRS IS NOT a simple body modification. Your penis is removed, your urethra is redirected, your nerve endings are frayed, cut, and redirected, and a vaginal canal is created.

I went fulltime at Seminary.......Seminary. I stood in front of a conservative judge last week and was told I cannot have custody of my children until they are 18 because I'm transgender. If I could do this in women's clothes I think other people (who wants SRS) can step out of their comfort box and try to present to the world the gender that they say they are.

Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 05:42:26 PM
I would like to reiterate that for HRT and perhaps FFS, the RLE requirement is rather unfair because it isn't exactly feasible for some of us more manly-looking folks to try and live as a female. For SRS, there is some merit to the RLE rules.

A letter is not required for FFS. Also, I personally never met a transgender person who needed RLE first before HRT. True, some organizations require RLE first, but find a place that will give you HRT before RLE. If you cant find one locally, plenty will do phone consultations.

Also...for the record, HRT will not drastically change one's appearance as much as one thinks. If one considers themselves unpassable now, HRT will soften the skin and other things...but it will not drastically change your face.

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
A letter is not required for FFS. Also, I personally never met a transgender person who needed RLE first before HRT. True, some organizations require RLE first, but find a place that will give you HRT before RLE. If you cant find one locally, plenty will do phone consultations.

Also...for the record, HRT will not drastically change one's appearance as much as one thinks.

Well, I know that it is sometimes required in some countries if you go under a national healthcare system.  Plus, I'm aware that HRT isn't a miracle, but it can be the difference between coming across as a girly man or as a manly girl. Big difference.

Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 06:06:03 PM
it can be the difference between coming across as a girly man or as a manly girl. Big difference.

I don't know many homophobes who would be more relieved over a girly man or a manly girl or vice versa

Ok, let me word it like this: it could be the difference between people assuming that you're trans or just that you are a strange-looking cis person, which would relieve some hassle of the RLE.

i still don't agree. Sorry :(

But it is what it is

There's no real need to apologize for having a different opinion. I know that HRT doesn't change your face, skeletal structure, etc. drastically.

But how about this?: It's better than nothing for a hefty portion of the trans population.

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2012, 05:50:42 PM
Normally, if one wishes to be a female, one would usually dress somewhat as a female to some extent.

Well, I already knew I was abnormal. But, ya, I wore mostly boy clothes to work today. I think it's a bit odd to just go ahead and assume that wearing female clothes is inherently required to be perceived as female. To me, it doesn't seem that big a factor. For me starting RLE just meant that I went by Sarah instead of my birth name. I didn't even own any girl clothes the first day of my RLE.

And we all know that HRT is a dice roll. But for some people the effects are pretty extraordinary. I lost the ability to pass as a guy after about 4 months on the stuff. On the other hand I still have no boobs. You win some, you lose some.

just to play devil's advocate, I can see why HRT would need some form of "effort" on the part of the person desiring HRT.

HRT does permanent changes in the body that can never be replaced. If one is on HRT for 6 months to a year, one will be permanently sterile. There are other issues that are permanent too.

So I can see if a therapist wants to see their client being serious enough to do it.

Also, if someone is so unpassable they are scared violence may ensue, HRT will in no way change one's appearance to the point to make them passable. It's not how HRT or why HRT works or why we are given HRT.

Quote from: Annah on December 12, 2012, 10:20:13 PM
Also, if someone is so unpassable they are scared violence may ensue, HRT will in no way change one's appearance to the point to make them passable. It's not how HRT or why HRT works or why we are given HRT.

Ow, my hopes and/or dreams. All 4 of them...  :laugh:

Quote from: Annah on December 12, 2012, 10:20:13 PM
If one is on HRT for 6 months to a year, one will be permanently sterile.

Actually, that would be a a great improvement for humanity. I considered sperm banking at one time, but... I'm the kind of person that should not be allowed to have children. Even If I could financially support them.

Quote from: Apple Seed on December 13, 2012, 10:43:30 AM

Actually, that would be a a great improvement for humanity. I considered sperm banking at one time, but... I'm the kind of person that should not be allowed to have children. Even If I could financially support them.

That is an individual conviction only. I want children and I love the children that have